Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion

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Gholdengo for example loses a lot by not using choice item, it loses the ability to cripple walls with trick and it is way worse against offense without the choice scarf boost since almost everything outspeeds Gholdengo.
Yeah, convert cloak has other uses outside countering salt cure but so does Tauros and Azu and being realistic, most of the users of CC wouldn't use it outside specific builts if Salt Cure didn't exits and that is my point, Garg is as bad as Pao from a teambuilding perspective.

No. Not even. A team should have answers to most meta defining Poke's and mechanics, the problem is Chien Pao you either run one or two specific Poke's on every team, or have to run Niche crap that if it dies you lose. IE: Haxorus with First Impression as much as a fun meme it is.

Garganacle can easily be halted by Taunt, Cloak, Special attackers that aren't resisted on it's tera, default is weak to common attacking types, many Ghosts can ignore Body press shenanigans and aren't too worried about Salt, Quav eats default often although it might get chipped a little.

Chien Pao comes in and you have to not only play a guessing game of if they are going for crunch or priority but most of its attacks can flatline most every poke. Yeah, First impression is an answer until they don't tera dark anymore then what.

Cloak on many slow mons can be quite useful to ignore flinch and other side effect of different attacks. Sure it's niche but even before I ran cloak on Skeledirge I often beat it using TS/EP combo. Cloak just made it an easier fight and allowed me to not have to waste turns slacking off.

I really don't see where people think you NEED cloak to stop Garg, you don't. Me thinks some people are in Unga Bunga mode with Gargl. Click strong move, don't think, physical attackers like CP only.
 
we really should code in some sort of message that lets you know when covert cloak blocks an effect so people can realize exactly how many times their asses have been saved from a random game-deciding status or stat drop or flinch. that'll turn a lot of cloak deniers into cloak enjoyers real fuckin quick

(yes, yes, i know, the cartridge games don't give you that information, but they don't give you hp percentages or hand out info about speed tiers either, this is more of a quality-of-life thing)
 
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Karxrida

Death to the Undying Savage
is a Community Contributor Alumnus
we really should code in some sort of message that lets you know when covert cloak blocks an effect so people can realize exactly how many times their asses have been saved from a random game-deciding status or stat drop or flinch. that'll turn a lot of cloak deniers into cloak enjoyers real fuckin quick
I don't think there's a way to even check this on cart so it would be a mod. People just have to trust in the fact that they can't get RNG screwed and make decisions based on that.

Also, I legit like Times New Roman but please stop using it here. It's so jarring when the font of a random post doesn't match the rest.
 
No. Not even. A team should have answers to most meta defining Poke's and mechanics, the problem is Chien Pao you either run one or two specific Poke's on every team, or have to run Niche crap that if it dies you lose. IE: Haxorus with First Impression as much as a fun meme it is.

Garganacle can easily be halted by Taunt, Cloak, Special attackers that aren't resisted on it's tera, default is weak to common attacking types, many Ghosts can ignore Body press shenanigans and aren't too worried about Salt, Quav eats default often although it might get chipped a little.

Chien Pao comes in and you have to not only play a guessing game of if they are going for crunch or priority but most of its attacks can flatline most every poke. Yeah, First impression is an answer until they don't tera dark anymore then what.

Cloak on many slow mons can be quite useful to ignore flinch and other side effect of different attacks. Sure it's niche but even before I ran cloak on Skeledirge I often beat it using TS/EP combo. Cloak just made it an easier fight and allowed me to not have to waste turns slacking off.

I really don't see where people think you NEED cloak to stop Garg, you don't. Me thinks some people are in Unga Bunga mode with Gargl. Click strong move, don't think, physical attackers like CP only.
Add Substitute to the list of ways to deal with Garganacl. I think Substitute in general is underappreciated in this meta.

I know it already gets some love but Iron Hands is a really good check to Chien Pao. I don't see it getting anywhere near the use it deserves. Can switch in and survive a +2 Icicle Crash and KO with Drain Punch.

+2 252 Atk Sword of Ruin Chien-Pao Icicle Crash vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Iron Hands: 328-387 (64.1 - 75.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
I don't think there's a way to even check this on cart so it would be a mod. People just have to trust in the fact that they can't get RNG screwed and make decisions based on that.

Also, I legit like Times New Roman but please stop using it here. It's so jarring when the font of a random post doesn't match the rest.
Get with the Times, New Roman
 
If the justification for garg not being broken is that you gotta run a suboptimal item on a mon that already is questionably problematic (gholdengo), then I think the pile of salt needs the boot. It's like saying dugtrio was fine cuz you could always run shed shell if it really bothered you.
I mean, if this is the angle you want to go with, I can definitely think of a more problematic move that causes people to run a suboptimal held item.

Hell, it's even a rock move!
 
Add Substitute to the list of ways to deal with Garganacl. I think Substitute in general is underappreciated in this meta.

I know it already gets some love but Iron Hands is a really good check to Chien Pao. I don't see it getting anywhere near the use it deserves. Can switch in and survive a +2 Icicle Crash and KO with Drain Punch.

+2 252 Atk Sword of Ruin Chien-Pao Icicle Crash vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Iron Hands: 328-387 (64.1 - 75.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Very true I know there's a few other options depending on Tera too without having to add things merely for it.

I actually did run IH on a few teams, though I ran a BD set so it wasn't too optimal for CP thrashing, it was pretty great though. However, one option I absolutely adore is:

The Brute/CP Murderer
Brute Bonnet @ Booster energy
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 252 HP / 252 ATK/ 4 Def
Adamant Nature
- Spore
- Seed Bomb
- Sucker Punch/Crunch
- Close Combat
IC can still flinch hax you but I just had a great idea: Covert Cloak Brute. Even without booster energy it does this:
252+ Atk Tera Fighting Brute Bonnet Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tera Dark Chien-Pao: 510-602 (169.4 - 200%) -- guaranteed OHKO
At best it can return with:
252 Atk Choice Band Sword of Ruin Tera Dark Chien-Pao Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tera Fighting Brute Bonnet: 265-313 (62.2 - 73.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Tera is the gift that keeps on giving.

Edit: Even in the case of SD +2:
+2 252 Atk Sword of Ruin Tera Dark Chien-Pao Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tera Fighting Brute Bonnet: 354-417 (83 - 97.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO Yeah Brute gonna omnomnom puny Chien Pao
 
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Well, the nice thing about an item is that you can put it on a mon that you already wanted to put on your team. In the case of Covert Cloak, it's actually a pretty good item, even in a meta that's relatively light on the things that it counters. In turn, you don't have to design the rest of your team around already having an otherwise-suboptimal slot taken by a mon you didn't want to run.

I'm not sure why Covert Cloak is such a magnet for this kind of false equivalence, but running a different (but still good!) defensive item is absolutely not on the same level as starting your teambuilding with a mon that can actually take a hit from Chien-Pao on either side.
The funny thing is you have all the naysayers on covert cloak and how it counters one mon in the meta but wait until home comes out and cloak becomes a very appreciative item to have. Cloak is an item that should be on your team if you just hate garg in particular.

Anyone think substitute should be a move that we should see more of? Salt cure shouldn’t go through unless you’re weak to rock but also allows a setup as well. Hate to bring substitute into a meta with Chien pao that could use it for greater gains but have to ask.
 
I appreciate the constructive criticism but I believe there are some points you got wrong.

First of all it is hard do deny that Gholdengo's covert cloak set is mostly dedicated for Garg, like I said, Gholdengo makes the better use out of Covert Cloak because it also, matters against Clodsire, Breloom, etc.

I also want to highlight your contradiction, as first you say that the Gholdengo's spread and set is very common (as a way of claiming that this set is not dedicated) and later say that the spread is dubious and uncommon.

Also you say that Water Garganacl has to position itself perfectly against Covert Cloak Gholdengo and that the match-up is tricky, later showing damage calculations that prove your own conclusions to be wrong.

Only +6 Gholdengo is able to 2hko Garganacl with Shadow ball, and while you can still 2hko it with +4 Make it Rain, you are still too slow to pull that off. As you switch in and get to +4, 3 turns pass, meaning Garg was already able to get to +2 and hit you once, Killing Gholden the next turn. There is nothing tricky here, if you predict Garg to switch in and curse you are already in a position where you beat it 90% of the time unless ur opponent crits you or uses surprise Tera to get a free turn.

You also mention the use of Covert Cloak on Corviknight and Skeledirge. I actually already tested Covert Cloak on these 2 Pokemon, and know very well they are not consistent. Corv is one of the best Knock Absorbers in the tier switching into Meowscarada, Great Tusk and Iron Treads and losing its item on the process, not being able to wall Garganacl anymore (not to mention it loses to iron defense/curse sets regardless). Skeledirge also hates losing HDB, and with team synergy and Hazards up the Garganacl player will just predict Skeledirge to come inde eventually and start switching to a Check to hazard pressure it. In fact, with hazards up, you dont even need to predict it, just salt cure and switch out it eventually runs out of recovery.
 
Ice punch is for garchomp and dragonite.
You won't be switching into those and they won't be switching into you most of the time. Gholdengo resists both STABs and will be switching into you, therefore Nigh Slash or Knock Off are much more useful than Ice Punch (you also hit Skeledirge with it btw). This might change once Lando-T comes though.
 
You won't be switching into those and they won't be switching into you most of the time. Gholdengo resists both STABs and will be switching into you, therefore Nigh Slash or Knock Off are much more useful than Ice Punch (you also hit Skeledirge with it btw). This might change once Lando-T comes though.
I have killed them multiple times with ice punch, you don't know what you are talking about.
Lets not forget that garchomp is often used as a hazard setter making ice punch even more usefull.

As for gholdengo I can just use something else to kill it, problem solved.
 
this reasoning always feels to me like a thinly disguised "please don't ban the thing i'm carried by". i've seen this exact argument, and i think maybe even this exact sentence, trotted out against the bans of flutter mane, iron bundle, palafin, and annihilape. i feel like it's a disservice to the council, which is working extremely hard to get this tier into a balanced spot (you guys are doing great btw), to complain about the speed at which they're banning things. then again, your post wasn't really a complaint, and you do make a valid point that pao was put on the radar every time. i'm just surprised garganacl got more qb votes in one slate than chien-pao got in three
how the hell did you manage to write the first three sentences of that, realise right afterwards I wasn't complaining and not go back and delete your first three sentences entirely because they were an obvious misinterpretation. I see you post very often in this thread it seems you do so without thinking.
 
I have killed them multiple times with ice punch, you don't know what you are talking about.
Lets not forget that garchomp is often used as a hazard setter making ice punch even more usefull.

As for gholdengo I can just use something else to kill it, problem solved.
You have many other Mons that can kill Garchomp, you just can't ignore Gholdengo (S rank Mon) and use an offensive Mon walled by it, if the opponent even suspects you are not running Dark move, you will be playing 5vs6. If anything, you can remove Leaf Blade (useful for only things like Rotom and Dondozo) and put Ice Punch, but I still don't recommend it until Lando-T (and Zapdos I guess) comes.
 
something irrelevant to my past posts:
I noticed that ursifu single-strike is banned in national dex while ursifu rapid strike is not.

do you think that there is a chance ursifu rapid-strike will stay unbanned this generation too despite receiving the huge buff of swords dance?
 

Karxrida

Death to the Undying Savage
is a Community Contributor Alumnus
Even if you're running Ice Punch on Gallade, I don't think Leaf Blade is a priority over Knock Off unless you really need to deal with Dodonzo. Knock Off is already adequate for Rotom-W since it does not like losing its item. Alternatively, be a dick and throw out Will-O-Wisps.

As an aside, I kind of wonder how Tera Ghost Gallade would work out if Chein-Pao ever gets booted. STAB Sharpness Shadow Claw seems really spammable, plus Choice Band sets can still use Shadow Sneak against faster teams.
 
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If the justification for garg not being broken is that you gotta run a suboptimal item on a mon that already is questionably problematic (gholdengo), then I think the pile of salt needs the boot. It's like saying dugtrio was fine cuz you could always run shed shell if it really bothered you. Garg is absolutely OBNOXIOUS in teambuilding, and not a healthy presence in the metagame imo.


And if garg being banned means other mons don't have checks anymore, whatever just ban those too. It's smogon precedent that "broken checks broken" is not a good argument, especially so early in a metagame.
Replace gen 9 with gen 8

replace :garganacl: garganacl with :heatran: heatran

replace covert cloak (good item), with :shed shell: shed shell

and finally, swap out :gholdengo: gholdengo for :toxapex: toxapex



Can you see the similarity?



speaking of toxapex, it’s a good cloak holder too, since it can waste the garg turn every time it comes in, andeven if you double switch, it gets 33% heals.



Speaking of regenerator, chilly reception :slowking: Slowking + a substitute set up user is basically feasting on garganacl. Whether you decide to use :orthworm: orthworm to set the sub in order to save valuable moveslot spaces, or just straight into a viable sub + setup user.

wanna 6-0 a Garg team? Give a shed tail sub to 252 bold :hatterene: hatterene with a Tera up her sleeve. She tends to break through 3+ Pokémon on a typical gargancl team, especially if it’s +2 out the gate.



Garganacl would be a bigger problem if its Tera wasn’t so predictable. You have strong Pokémon’s like the aforementioned hatterene that are strong without Tera, and can compound their strengths by overcoming a check/counter after a Tera. Example hatterene can break through the #2 most used Pokémon , that usually checks it, after a Tera water.



I think dragonite is more of a threat than garganacl, since you have to dedicate more than a simple item to beat it. You really need to be using a dondozo, corviknight, etc, or playing extremely aggressively and being careful not to let your resisted hitters KO something when your single check is under the KO threshold from +1 e speed. One wrong Pokémon gets a KO on the opponent and boom, dragonite gets a guaranteed +1 dragon dance, and lots of health to try a +2 or 2HKO a check.



If your team is Garg weak, its viable to add an item, if your team is dragonite/Volcarona/etc weak, you redesign your entire team. Do you ban dragonite / Volcarona ?



Note I am not mentioning chien pao for the purposes of this discussion, as it’s in a different league to the others right now.
 
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Even if you're running Ice Punch on Gallade, I don't think Leaf Blade is a priority over Knock Off unless you really need to deal with Dodonzo. Knock Off is already adequate for Rotom-W since it does not like losing its item. Alternatively, be a dick and throw out Will-O-Wisps.

As an aside, I kind of wonder how Tera Ghost Gallade would work out if Chein-Pao ever gets booted. STAB Sharpness Shadow Claw seems really spammable, plus Choice Band sets can still use Shadow Sneak against faster teams.
Dondozo and rotom-w are pretty common this gen so running leaf blade is kinda necessary.
It is better to kill rotom-w than weaken it.
Althou azumaril isn't a wall being able to kill it is useful(unless if it runs sap sipper.).

Leaf blade can hit super effectively 2-3 pokemon. Knock-off can only hit one pokemon and that pokemon doesn't always run defensive sets.
Not to mention that there are better knock off users out there.

Knock off has higher opportunity cost than leaf blade.

Also in some cases people are expecting me to use psycho-cut and they switch to ting-lu which is weak to grass.
while it will receive less damage than it would take with sacred sword it still takes a good chunk of damage.
 
I have killed them multiple times with ice punch, you don't know what you are talking about.
Lets not forget that garchomp is often used as a hazard setter making ice punch even more usefull.

As for gholdengo I can just use something else to kill it, problem solved.
some advice, you’re using gallade with a choice band.

usually this means you’re trying to damage things that switch into you; especially with its slow speed, you’re probably forcing out bulky Pokémon.

you also want to ease prediction, where fewer moves can pull weight regardless of switch ins.

you don’t want to be locked into ice punch, top threats like Gholdengo setup on you. Threats like skeledirge, dondozo and corviknight barely take anything from that when they switch into your ice punch.

Corviknight takes more damage when it switches into psycho cut, than when it switches into ice punch… … ..

At least your STABs have predictable dark/ghost types that you need coverage for and teammates to switch into. Everything else hates the sharpness + band boosted hits , even if they 2x resist!!

youre also losing the speed race against garchomp

and chances are you’re not doing enough damage to dragonite anyway

i would really like to see replays that show why ice punch is useful! Because logically, it makes no sense.

I haven’t used gallade , tho would assume STAB + coverage/priority + utility move is more than enough. Its issues are mostly around its low speed and susceptibility to priority from slower threats. It definitely dents the big walls however!

knock off or night slash are good coverage, one has more power, the other has more utility. Trick can be used as well, as can shadow sneak. Leaf blade might be good too against some teams too, especially if the water/psychic type becomes common again.
 
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First of all it is hard do deny that Gholdengo's covert cloak set is mostly dedicated for Garg, like I said, Gholdengo makes the better use out of Covert Cloak because it also, matters against Clodsire, Breloom, etc.

I also want to highlight your contradiction, as first you say that the Gholdengo's spread and set is very common (as a way of claiming that this set is not dedicated) and later say that the spread is dubious and uncommon.
As you know, a set is a combination of item, ability (if variable), moveset and EVs. A set is not just an item, even it it can be its most important part, like with Choice items.
Of course Gholdengo wants to run Covert Cloak specifically for the Garg match-up, but if it wanted to specifically counter Garganacle "as a set", that is, "as its role in your team", it should run Thunderbolt instead of Shadow Ball to hit the most common forms of Garg (Fairy and Water super effectively, Steel and Ghost neutrally), specially considering that there's no scenario in which Shadow Ball would be useful against Garganacle. Also would want to run another Tera-Type; Flying is run to counter/better handle the match up against the Ground types I mentioned, NOT Garganacle. Flying against Garganacle is usually a bad idea, as it doesn't always run EQ, but it certainly always runs Salt Cure. You'd honestly consider a "dedicated set" to run a Tera-Type that makes you weaker to the one move you know the one mon you're trying to counter will run 100% of the time?

My point was that the set you showed was a mix of "all-purpose bulky NP" in moves alone, but with EVs that are better aimed at a more offensive role that doesn't want to run NP and Recover at the same time, like Trick Scarf (which ironically would be more effective if you manage to Trick Garg itself). A set that mixes traits of two different common sets is unusual, and often not very effective. The fact that the item considered Garganacle as a potential foe, but neither moves nor EVs were optimized for this match up means that the intention behind that set was not to counter Garg specifically, but rather considered Garg as just "one of many" things Gholdengo could face.



Also you say that Water Garganacl has to position itself perfectly against Covert Cloak Gholdengo and that the match-up is tricky, later showing damage calculations that prove your own conclusions to be wrong.

Only +6 Gholdengo is able to 2hko Garganacl with Shadow ball, and while you can still 2hko it with +4 Make it Rain, you are still too slow to pull that off. As you switch in and get to +4, 3 turns pass, meaning Garg was already able to get to +2 and hit you once, Killing Gholden the next turn. There is nothing tricky here, if you predict Garg to switch in and curse you are already in a position where you beat it 90% of the time unless ur opponent crits you or uses surprise Tera to get a free turn.
Honestly, I don't want to argue too much on this fight scenario because my biggest issue is with the Gholdengo set you presented itself; delving into this fight is assuming a premise I cannot accept.
But the situation you describe has already a Garg on the field (meaning a 1 turn advantage on the match up), predicting correctly an opponent switching to Gholdengo, then revealing your set (with Curse instead of EQ, to boot; if you predict Gholdengo anyway, EQ would just leave it in range of a 2HKO, forcing it to get locked into Recover, accept the loss or Tera and become exploitable with super effective Salt Cure; if it's Air Balloon, it loses to Salt Cure anyway. You have NO REASON to curse instead of EQ if you predict it), THEN having your opponent not understand that Curse on Garganacle makes EQ very likely and get completely blindsided by it.

Let's review that, turn by turn
Turn 1- Garg on field. Gholdengo switches in. Garg predicts and uses Curse. (Tera status unknown)
Turn 2- Gholdengo doesn't tera (for some reason) and uses Nasty Plot. Garganacle may Tera-Water in fear of Make it Rain or not, uses Curse again.
Turn 3- Gholdengo STILL doesn't Tera (whomever is controlling this Gholdengo really deserves to lose here, lemme tell you. What do they think Curse on Garg even means? and if you're facing a mon that gets OHKO by Make it Rain, and it stays on you, and it even dares to set up Curse instead of switching out, what exactly do you think is their plan? to die for laughs?), uses Nasty Plot again. Garganacle EQ and wins.
... now let's assume Gholdengo DID Tera at Turn 3

Turn 3- Gholdengo Tera-Flying. Uses Nasty Plot. Garganacle uses EQ. Does nothing.
Turn 4- Gholdengo uses make it Rain for ~65% damage. Garganacle uses Recover (you also deserve to lose if you use +2 Salt cure for only ~55% damage, forcing you to switch out into a +3 attack or lose Garganacle)
Turn 5- ??? Gholdengo can use NP predicting Recover, and Garganacle can use salt Cure predicting NP. Or they can both be straigthforward and use Make it Rain VS REcover again for little change.

This scenario was the one that becomes a pure prediction to see which wins, but Gholdengo has the advantage. This circumstance would change if Garg had tried to EQ before getting to +2, but again, Gholdengo could also Tera-Flying any time.
Now, let's assume Gholdengo Teras at the wrong timing:

Turn 2- Gholdengo Tera-Flying in fear of EQ and uses Nasty Plot again. Garganacle Tera-Water in fear of Make it Rain and Curses Agian.
Turn 3- Gholdengo uses Nasty Plot agian, as it's still not particularly scared. Garganacle uses +2 super effective Salt Cure for ~55% damage.
Turn 4- Gholdengo can use Make it Rain to heavily damage Garganacle and leave it ready to be revenge killed with easy, or use Recover in hopes that Garganacle does something weird, like Recover predicting an attack. Garganacle uses Salt cure again and either kills, but is left with very low HP, or deals ~55% damage again and the flow of this turn is repeated until either side gets tired.

Gholdengo loses the 1 on 1, but Garganacle is too weakened and would struggle to make itself useful for the rest of the battle.... but it's also relevant to note that these numbers on Salt Cure and EQ are only true for a Gholdengo set with no or almost no bulk investment; EVs alone can make this scenario a loss for Garganacle, as it would need another turn to get a kill although Gholdengo would be crippled with very little HP.

Note that this scenario is flipped by a Tera that isn't even the best for this situation, with a significant positional advantage on Garganacle of already being in the field, Gholdengo hard-switching into it AND predicting the switch.
So no, not simple at all.


You also mention the use of Covert Cloak on Corviknight and Skeledirge. I actually already tested Covert Cloak on these 2 Pokemon, and know very well they are not consistent. Corv is one of the best Knock Absorbers in the tier switching into Meowscarada, Great Tusk and Iron Treads and losing its item on the process, not being able to wall Garganacl anymore (not to mention it loses to iron defense/curse sets regardless). Skeledirge also hates losing HDB, and with team synergy and Hazards up the Garganacl player will just predict Skeledirge to come inde eventually and start switching to a Check to hazard pressure it. In fact, with hazards up, you dont even need to predict it, just salt cure and switch out it eventually runs out of recovery.
That logic is wrong at its base. First, Covert Cloak Corviknight must value its item highly if the opponent is using Garganacle as it needs it to counter it. You're simply missplaying if you send Corviknight into a potential Knock Off when you know you want to keep your item. He may be a Knock Abosrber usually, but you can't have him be a Knock absorber and a Garganacle counter at the same time, and if you prioritize wanting to send it on Knock Offs, you shouldn't equip it with a Covert Cloak to begin with. But that's just part of the game; sets countering each other, understanding the position and the situation of the game to know what parts of your team are more valuable in a given match up and what parts of your opponent's team are more threatening and adapt accordingly. Also, "not to mention it loses to ID/Curse sets regardless"; is this line meant to refer that Garganacle wins against Corv even with Covert Cloak? Because that's blatantly wrong. Unless it's a pure pivot defog support Corviknight, which I'd argue is it's worst set by far in a meta with Gholdengo hard-countering it and threatening to use it as setup fodder. If Corviknight is running Iron Defense/Body Press itself, then the side with full Def investment wins, and if both/neither have Def investment, Corv wins because neither side has enough damage to break past the other, and Garg runs out of PP first due to Pressure. And if Corv isn't running ID/BP, then why give it a Covert Cloak to begin with? What does Brave Bird/U-Turn/Defog/Roost Corv do in front of Garg other than look stupid? Why would you even consider using the item slot on a match up you have no answer to?

The Skeledirge argument is, I'm afraid, straight up outrageous. The "only" conditions you set for Skeledirge to stop being reliable is an entire team effort to force it in and out, prior Knocking it off, with hazards on the opponents field (and only on their field, given how quick you are to switch around) and constantly predicting when it comes out? Well, thank Arceus it only takes that!
A more constructive argument would be a discussion on whether Substitute would be a good option for it instead of Will-o-Wisp/Yawn in the current meta and if this set becoming popular would be testament to Garganacles presence. Or if it would be worth it to run Covert cloak on Skeledirge, assuming you'll probably have to Tera into Water/Fairy anyway and don't care (as much) about hazards after that. Ignoring that this Skeledirge would also have other pokemons behind it and a player behind that can predict you too is just not a serious argument.
 
an other thing irrelevant to my previous posts:
I am surprised the espartha is ranked A+ in viability list.
it is not a bad pokemon,but A+?
for a pokemon with 4 mooveslot syndom that can be walled by kingabit and struggles to deal with skelledigre you wouldn't expect it to be above A-.
 
Let me tell you, none of y’all would be complaining about covert cloak if my boy scarf Jirachi was in this tier flinch-haxing it’s way through all of your Pokémon.

Covert Cloak is good. Secondary effects are powerful, and ignoring them is very strong especially in place of an item like leftovers. Throughout my entire Pokémon career I have lost significantly more games to an unlucky flinch, burn, para, freeze, or stat drop than I have from losing leftovers.
 
Relatively to the Covert Cloak Gholedngo set being a dedicated set, I think we reach an agreement, we both agree that the item has more purposes on Gholdengo than being immune to Salt Cure, despite that being its main purpose, the same can not be said, however, about other Covert Cloak Pokemon like Corviknight or Skeledirge as you say.

First of all, a big part of Corviknight's relevance actually has to do with absorbing Knock off and u-turning out to achieve momentum. If u are running a covert cloak set with iron defense, that cant achieve momentum (and still loses to the rare Tera ghost curse set), you will be playing a 5vs6 match-up most games. What is the point of running Corv just for Garg when u cant Switch into Tusk, Meowscarada or Iron Treads? Its just a dedicated set that is deadweight in most match-ups.

Skeledirge is no difference. You said that Garg needs a lot of team support to beat Covert loak Skeledirge but thats just not true at all. If you are switching Skeledirge into Garga and ur opponent has a default Garga set, it gets up rocks on Skeledirge. In case you try to go to tusk, Corv or any other Spiner to remove hazards, Garga just Teras and beats them 1v1 Forcing Rocks to stay up. With this, Garga just has to spend 1 salt cure pp every time Skeledirge comes in to absorb salt cure, making it take damage from stealth rock and switching out the next turn.
Skeledirge runs out of slack off PP way faster than Garganacl runs out of salt cure.
Even in a scenario where u manage to trade hazards Garganacl simply has more longevity than Covert Cloak Skeledirge due to leftovers recovery and not being weak to Stealth Rocks unlike dirge. Even if you tera Dirge to take less damage from Stealth Rock, Earthquake and Salt Cure u just lose because 8 Slack off PP is not enough and because Garganacl may simply bait you in and not actually click salt cure long term to force you to take Stealth Rocks damage.
 
To bring this back to the initial Chien-Pao vs Tauros/Azumarill comparison that kicked off the latest Covert Cloak discourse, something I think worth noting: Covert Cloak Gholdengo and such is to make your team more secure against Garg, who is a relevant high-tier mon that you'd want to prepare for regardless and this is just the degree of prep you think he warrants; Tauros and Azumarill are to not immediately lose a mon as a result of Chien-Pao getting onto the field. One is tweaking an item on several Pokemon in a way that hampers them in some match-ups but benefits them in one or more other relevant ones, a set you can choose to run if you find your team is becoming weak to stuff like Garg or wants answers to Nuzzle or Breloom's coverage partway through building, whereas an entire mon is more constricting due to potential weakness stacking and dictating all of said mon's other traits by movepool, typing, BST, etc.

Covert Cloak is a perhaps-niche Utility option for some mons that makes your team more secure against an opponent that is dangerous but has counter play, while the mons above are okay but extremely specific dedications to deal with Mega Weavile, and rather binary in that they will pull a lot less weight if you don't need them to deal with a Chien-Pao. A Cloak Gholdengo is less optimal but still plenty capable of putting in work thanks to Good as Gold and retaining its always-stellar typing and STAB power options, I could see reason someone would consider CC mons even if Salt Cure wasn't a concern, even if as a Plan C consideration vs the other set options; I am willing to guess that Tauros-P, while useful sees the lion share of its usage right now from its ability to check Chien-Pao and am not sure how significant its OU niche would be without this Pokemon. People bring up Gen 8 with things like Heatran, it also makes me wonder what the discourse would have been like if Covert Cloak existed in the era of Scald. Would we have seen a call for that move's ban because a large swath of Physical Attackers risk free burns without using their item slot for CC?

There were talks in SS at times about HDB being suspected or considered for action (though none manifested long term) because of how impactful they were in stopping hazards, would that or this not have been the Boots-Suspect conversation in reverse: One astronomically relevant move being completely nullified by one extremely-particular item, one scenario in this comparison being action against the item and the other being action against the move. Covert Cloak is noticeably more tame in its benefit (a bit distorted by the fact that you'll most notice its benefit when you're not getting it for Nuzzle or stuff like random Shadow Ball drops, vs Boots benefits always being very apparent), but then I think it's also reasonable to suggest Stealth Rock/Hazards were and are going to impact as many if not more games compared to Salt Cure, and likely to a much more substantial degree (which is more a comment on how big Hazard game is given Salt Cure is quite powerful).

Obviously the comparison is a lot more muddy in this case because Garg is the only major user for Salt Cure as its Signature and it benefits from several other traits (among other factors like the nature of the two moves), but my point remains, is there a definite precedent for if the choice to run a particular item is proof of a move being oppressive, rather than just being prevalent and relevant? I feel like were we to have applied this logic to Gen 8 and discounted grandfather clause/seniority of some kind, the equivalent would be calling for action against Stealth Rock rather than Boots; I am not advocating for one position or the other but I want to bring up this comparison to contextualize what precedent action on this relationship would suggest going forward.
 
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