Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion

[ant4456]

We are literally just volunteers trying to perfect a craft that is judged as if we are professionals.

It’s night and day as to how much has changed. We never had community surveys and suspects were far more spread apart. Right now, the process is so much better and transparency is at a new high. I choose to celebrate these things and I do not see anything wrong with what AM said.

With this said, you’re more than welcome to remain wanting more improvement and I hope we can keep getting better, too. There is still lots of room to go. But both can be true.

I understand that Smogon is mostly ran by volunteers, and tbh that surprised me when I learned of that considering how much goes into the community. As I said before, I think this is a good council. My problem is that, even if the speed is higher than say, 2014-16, the advent of DLC in Pokemon and Dex Cut means that the pace needs to be higher.

Stabilizing a meta is much harder when the meta only has 4ish metas to exist. ORAS had all the time in the world to be stabilized, Pre-Home, or Home, or DLC1 don't; and if something like Chien-Pao is likely to be retested in a month or two, it feels odd to even spend a good part of a month trying to get a suspect done for a Pokemon most agree is broken.

You are right; both are true. I like the council, but I think there are some decisions that don't need a suspect.

 

[awyp]

When were we supposed to quickban if? On every survey it has received less support than multiple Pokemon. As recently as two weeks ago on last survey, it was below Pao and Garg.

Despite literally being mid-suspect and unable to quickban things, we saw outcry and reacted with an unprecedented mid-suspect survey to expedite potential action. There is nothing more we can possibly do.

Do you just want us to ignore the community altogether? That’s now how it works. I’m happy to remove Espathra and we are taking the steps to get support — I even went out of my way to post why I responded saying it should be banned, but saying we dropped the ball without any substance is just nonsense.

Honestly Finch, I just wanted to give you you're flowers I think since the beginning of SV OU, the council has done everything right in terms of listening to the public and seeing when fit to run a suspect test or when to have a quickban or even when to put out a survey. The council SHOULD NOT change anything they're doing I feel like the level of transparency that has been shown from the council (since the end of November) has been fantastic and much needed. There will always be doubters questioning every decision (even if it's near perfect) and all I have to say is keep doing what you're doing.

edit: I only say this because I feel like there's a lot of noise when it's literally group of individuals volunteering their time about bettering the OU competitive scene as effectively and democratically to the best of their ability.

 

[Rootb]

What mons do you seriously think would balance either of the Ruin mons, or Espathra, or Garganacl, or Annihilape? I’m seriously wondering what y’all are referring to when you make that argument, because I haven’t seen anyone go into detail on it yet.

Bolding is mine. I think it's a bit off compare Garg to the mons that have been banned from OU so far, because that list is a bunch of mons that can and will OHKO you, with either limited or no counterplay.. and Cyclizar, who uses its speed to make new threats in the first category.

Even now, the biggest ban contestant (Espathra) is yet another new overpowering, high speed attacker. I think it's completely fair to give Garg an eventual suspect, given how strong it is, but counterplay does exist for it, and you're extremely likely to outspeed it when putting it to use.

...Unfortunately, a lot of that counterplay gets absolutely rolled by Chien-Pao.

 

[wrockstah]

Honestly Finch, I just wanted to give you you're flowers I think since the beginning of SV OU, the council has done everything right in terms of listening to the public and seeing when fit to run a suspect test or when to have a quickban or even when to put out a survey. The council SHOULD NOT change anything they're doing I feel like the level of transparency that has been shown from the council (since the end of November) has been fantastic and much needed. There will always be doubters questioning every decision (even if it's near perfect) and all I have to say is keep doing what you're doing.

edit: I only say this because I feel like there's a lot of noise when it's literally group of individuals volunteering their time about bettering the OU competitive scene as effectively and democratically to the best of their ability.

I'm aggreeing with this :)

Now about Espathra and Garg.. In my experience of playing OU right now, the meta is so much fun, pretty competitive and through tera there is so much space to play around with creative sets. The problem with Espathra is that you have no room for mistakes playing against it and therefore it does put so much pressure on your team. But the actual problem is Salt Cure, this move is way too strong. Garg would be so much more manageable if the cure would end if it switches out. I personally voted 4 on both mons, but i think that Garg is a little bit more broken.

 

[carbonlifeform]

Glad I'm not taking crazy pills. I was pretty confused by the lack of support behind action on Espathra in the last survey, considering how little it adds to the health of the meta. "Espathra Sweep" is a "style" entirely to itself that contributes to nothing else.

Yeah, there's counterplay, but it's all relatively limited and/or situational, with Tera techs throwing a massive wrench into the system -- not to mention the ways that just the Sub/Protect/Roost slot and different EV spreads all change the flow chart for actually beating it. Also, as with Chien-Pao, if something is only a check at 100%, it's not a check. And unlike Chien-Pao, there aren't a bunch of otherwise highly-viable half-measures you can stack to try to stitch together a game plan if your opponent removes your best answer. It adds nothing to the meta except frustration.

Also, just want to raise yet another voice thanking Finch, et al for the hard work. Community engagement/management is an endless and generally thankless task, and y'all are killing it.

 

[ant4456]

Honestly Finch, I just wanted to give you you're flowers I think since the beginning of SV OU, the council has done everything right in terms of listening to the public and seeing when fit to run a suspect test or when to have a quickban or even when to put out a survey. The council SHOULD NOT change anything they're doing I feel like the level of transparency that has been shown from the council (since the end of November) has been fantastic and much needed. There will always be doubters questioning every decision (even if it's near perfect) and all I have to say is keep doing what you're doing.

edit: I only say this because I feel like there's a lot of noise when it's literally group of individuals volunteering their time about bettering the OU competitive scene as effectively and democratically to the best of their ability.

Smogon isn't a democratic community. It's about making the best decisions to make a competitive singles format. Suspect Tests, Mods, Retests and Quickbans are the tools in the toolbox to create this. The vast, vast, vast majority of Smogon players never vote in a Suspect Test, make a message on the forums, or anything of that nature.

An actual "Smogon Democracy" would be if we literally just all voted on an open poll to make decisions, but that's not what we have in the toolbox. It's not a representative democracy either, as we don't all vote on council members repeatedly.

Even within your exact post is anti-democratic sentiments. "There will always be doubters questioning every decision (even if it's near perfect) and all I have to say is keep doing what you're doing."

So you're saying that a certain group of people should be ignored? Which yes, everyone on these forums do most of the time, including me. Because Smogon isn't a democratic community, nor has it really ever been.

Smogon has never functioned because everyone gets a say. Especially in 2023 when Youtubers post their hot takes for a group of people larger than the entire active forum, linking the surveys directly in the same video.

That being said, it's not even really that serious? It's a competitive Pokemon thing, it doesn't really matter as long as the game is fun and competitive.

Like, I didn't even say Finch and co. are doing a bad job. I repeatedly complimented them. But why would I focus on constantly complimenting them, what does that feedback do? I want Scarlet and Violet OU to have some stability as we go through the HOME and DLC shifts, and this is feedback regarding how SWSH DLC was handled, and how I see this suspect and the council's stated intentions as a sign of a rehash of the events that happened.

edit: Also, I'ma log off for a bit. Wild last hour or so, I didn't think this would make this long of a conversation (which was mostly negative towards me). Always remember, silly Smogon forum stuff is not worth your mental health. I'll respond to anything at a different time.

 

[YNM]

Damn, today's thread sure is spicy.

 

[ayevon]

Espathra 5
Garg 4
Gholdengo 4
Will probably be voting ban on Pao
Shed Tail should be banned

The consequences of not banning Tera is that basically any bulky setup sweeper can at worst easily force the opponent to trade multiple mons to revenge (one to force tera, one to revenge after the tera) and often just sweep entire teams at low opportunity cost. Along with power creep, I think this is basically just gonna cause a roulette of new things being broken after every ban. So hopefully Tera gets banned whenever it's revisited because now that we've moved past the initial Palafin, Flutter Mane, etc. bans, it's clear that Tera is the root cause of everything that becomes probelmatic in the metagame.

 

[Beaf Cultist]

Bolding is mine. I think it's a bit off compare Garg to the mons that have been banned from OU so far, because that list is a bunch of mons that can and will OHKO you, with either limited or no counterplay.. and Cyclizar, who uses its speed to make new threats in the first category.

Yeah, I actually included Garg specifically because I didn’t want the list to be all wallbreakers, and Cyclizar is more a playstyle enabler than a broken in and of itself, so new additions don’t really affect it as a mon as much as they do the playstyle it enables. My point was just that all of these mons either have their best counterplay possible already in the tier (Kingambit and Gholdengo are legitimately like, the best Espathra answers in existence, NatDex or no), or don’t stop being broken once new counterplay is introduced (I think Chien-Pao would likely still be problematic with Melmetal in the meta). Really the only exception to this that I can see is Annihilape, since mons like Zapdos and Tornadus-Therian are actually super annoying for it. Probably the only banned mon that I could see an argument for unbanning post-Home, but I really am curious what others think.

funny edit

252+ Atk Choice Band Sword of Ruin Chien-Pao Crunch vs. 40 HP / 0 Def Melmetal: 199-235 (47.2 - 55.8%) -- 79.3% chance to 2HKO
lol

 

[YNM]

Really the only exception to this that I can see is Annihilape, since mons like Zapdos and Tornadus-Therian are actually super annoying for it. Probably the only banned mon that I could see an argument for unbanning post-Home, but I really am curious what others think.

I was one of the biggest advocates on the Ape ban, but you do make a great point mentioning Zapdos and Tornadus, hell maybe even Alolan Muk with Toxic, Moltres and Enamorus could be good answers to it. The problem is that IMO Rage Fist is still a broken and uncompetitive move, and when you pair it with cheap strats like Revival Blessing it really feels stupid when you lose to it. But who knows, I may change my mind after giving it a chance in the new meta.

 

[Eeveeto]

Yeah, I actually included Garg specifically because I didn’t want the list to be all wallbreakers, and Cyclizar is more a playstyle enabler than a broken in and of itself, so new additions don’t really affect it as a mon as much as they do the playstyle it enables. My point was just that all of these mons either have their best counterplay possible already in the tier (Kingambit and Gholdengo are legitimately like, the best Espathra answers in existence, NatDex or no), or don’t stop being broken once new counterplay is introduced (I think Chien-Pao would likely still be problematic with Melmetal in the meta). Really the only exception to this that I can see is Annihilape, since mons like Zapdos and Tornadus-Therian are actually super annoying for it. Probably the only banned mon that I could see an argument for unbanning post-Home, but I really am curious what others think.

No, thanks, lol, at least with Tera in mind, Annihilape was for me more broken than Cyclizar, Chi Yu and Chien Pao combined. Absolutely punishes every strategy that is not spamming the strongest STAB Moves. At least Chi Yu and Chien Pao did have defined answers to standard sets (though they still could overwhelm them with some random Tera coverage), Annihilape was a threat that always had potential to sweep and that won't change with home (if anything, Intimidate Lando would make it even better due to Defiant).

They only Mon I see unbanned after home is Houndstone, provided Last Respect is banned.
Also Zamazenta (and maybe the Crown form and Giratina-A in the far future) but thats a different situation, since they never been in OU before. Right away, only Houndstone is likely to be unbanned.

 

[SpritePony]

Average 700-800s player here but I'm honestly starting to feel like Shed Tail is still a stupidly broken move despite Orthworm being kinda of a bad mon, and it rising to OU is a clear sign of this. Not only does it feel almost as uncompetitive as Baton Pass, due to how easy it is to pivot around and keep momentum, but as we all know getting a free sub is pretty much an immediate win condition on certain mons (cough cough Espathra), if you don't have an answer or a check in the next turn. Combined with the unpredictability of defensive Teras, the opponent is very likely to get at least 2 turns to set up freely, and you'll end up losing a mon just to break the sub.
This turns otherwise manageable offensive sweepers like Volcarona, Dnite, Iron Valiant and Pult into nightmare fuel, often times completely turning the tides of the game.
I initially thought that Orthworm couldn't keep up with the pace of the meta, especially considering that it doesn't have Regen or recovery to allow it to spam Shed Tail, but now that people have started experimenting with Sitrus Berry and Rest+Talk this whole strat is getting quite annoying. I would like to hear other players opinions about it, cause I don't believe this move is competitive at all.
Edit: and I forgot, don't get me started on Shed Tail + Screens.

Even though I'm currently peaking at 1300 (mostly due to not really playing on ladder much), I'm definitely in agreement that Shed Tail was the problem this whole time, and not Cyclizar and its kit. The ONLY reason Orth is even in OU is because of Shed Tail, nothing else. The rest of its kit would get it booted to like.. RU or something, lmfao. It's like cool, you get Spikes and Rocks with a Ground immunity, but you have no way of clearing them, no reliable recovery, and you're an extremely passive mon to boot.

Yeah, I actually included Garg specifically because I didn’t want the list to be all wallbreakers, and Cyclizar is more a playstyle enabler than a broken in and of itself, so new additions don’t really affect it as a mon as much as they do the playstyle it enables. My point was just that all of these mons either have their best counterplay possible already in the tier (Kingambit and Gholdengo are legitimately like, the best Espathra answers in existence, NatDex or no), or don’t stop being broken once new counterplay is introduced (I think Chien-Pao would likely still be problematic with Melmetal in the meta). Really the only exception to this that I can see is Annihilape, since mons like Zapdos and Tornadus-Therian are actually super annoying for it. Probably the only banned mon that I could see an argument for unbanning post-Home, but I really am curious what others think.

Dengo and Gambit aren't really good Espathra "answers". They can't reliably check it due to the simple boosting ability it has, and the Tera mind games.
+2 0 SpA Espathra Stored Power (180 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gholdengo: 211-249 (55.8 - 65.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 0 SpA Tera Fire Espathra Tera Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gholdengo: 374-444 (98.9 - 117.4%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO (Yes, I've seen Tera Fire Espathra)

+2 0 SpA Tera Fire Espathra Tera Blast vs. 112 HP / 0 SpD Kingambit: 398-470 (107.8 - 127.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 0 SpA Tera Fairy Espathra Tera Blast vs. 112 HP / 0 SpD Kingambit: 199-235 (53.9 - 63.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Not only are you getting slammed for damage, you have to try and break through their stat ups or deal with being easily outpaced. The best "checks" to Espathra are unironically Unaware users to lower Tera Blast/Dazzling Gleam/Stored Power damage, or Pokemon that can fearlessly switch in and click Haze. Thus far, my list for Pokemon that can CONSISTENTLY do that is Skeledirge, and that is only if you hard switch into it as Espathra hits the field.

 

[Dusk Mage Necrozma]

I'm aggreeing with this :)

Now about Espathra and Garg.. In my experience of playing OU right now, the meta is so much fun, pretty competitive and through tera there is so much space to play around with creative sets. The problem with Espathra is that you have no room for mistakes playing against it and therefore it does put so much pressure on your team. But the actual problem is Salt Cure, this move is way too strong. Garg would be so much more manageable if the cure would end if it switches out. I personally voted 4 on both mons, but i think that Garg is a little bit more broken.

I do think that people are overstating Salt Cure’s role in Garganacl’s brokenness. This isn’t a Cyclizar/Shed Tail or Annihilape/Rage Fist situation, this is a 100/130/90 defensive monster with Body Press, Stealth Rock, and Recover. Salt Cure is just the cherry on top.

 

[YNM]

I do think that people are overstating Salt Cure’s role in Garganacl’s brokenness. This isn’t a Cyclizar/Shed Tail or Annihilape/Rage Fist situation, this is a 100/130/90 defensive monster with Body Press, Stealth Rock, and Recover. Salt Cure is just the cherry on top.

I mean, if it didn't have Salt Cure it would just be a good hazard setter and a great wall, no way it would have been considered broken. Sure, the stats are nice, the ability is incredible and I could see some Curse sets getting annoying, but the only thing that truly makes it banworthy is Salt Cure in my opinion.

 

[incorolla]

I'm shit at the game so won't get recs, but voting as follows:

Espathra is a 4. I nearly went 3 because I've managed them mostly okay, but then I actually used one and it's so easy to snowball with one. Definitely support a suspect.

Garg is a 4, I ummed and ahhed about what to put them on but they're arguably the most meta defining mon right now, and will always contribute to some degree. I love using them but hate facing them, what can you do.

Golden Joe is a 2. Good Mon, definitely not broken though, right?

 

[Havocreator7]

I mean, if it didn't have Salt Cure it would just be a good hazard setter and a great wall, no way it would have been considered broken. Sure, the stats are nice, the ability is incredible and I could see some Curse sets getting annoying, but the only thing that truly makes it banworthy is Salt Cure in my opinion.

I feel like this argument could be made in several directions though: if it didn't have the moveset but had everything else, or if it didn't have the ability but kept the rest of its kit, it would probably not be worthy of a ban. Salt Cure is great, but so are 1000/130/90 stats with a modifiable type, and so is purifying salt.

 

[YNM]

I feel like this argument could be made in several directions though: if it didn't have the moveset but had everything else, or if it didn't have the ability but kept the rest of its kit, it would probably not be worthy of a ban. Salt Cure is great, but so are 1000/130/90 stats with a modifiable type, and so is purifying salt.

Yeah that's also true, although the neverending effect of Salt Cure feels broken regardless, and it's honestly such a stupid mechanic.

ISalt Cure is great, but so are 1000/130/90 stats

Damn if it had 1000 HP I'd be crying lmao

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

Any and all bans are subject to being overturned when Home

…hang on, which ones are we even thinking about overturning? we've got:

• the one with a 300-bp move
• the other one with a 300-bp move
• the one with a box-legendary base stat spread and 60-bp stab priority
• the subpasser with regenerator and 121 speed
• the special attacker that 2hkos blissey
• marvel's what if delibird was a legendary
• the one that was overbearing enough to be quickbanned before any of these

i honestly don't see any of the current ubers somehow becoming manageable once home drops, aside from houndstone inevitably dropping back down once basculegion comes out and last respects gets banned instead (and a potential shed tail ban allowing people to use koraidon't)

 

[YNM]

• marvel's what if delibird was a legendary

I don't play NatDex so I have no idea, is Mega Delibird still broken over there? I felt like out of all those mons it would have been the most likely to come back.

• the one with a 300-bp move

I'm pretty sure the Council is gonna ban Last Respects instead of banning both the Dog and Basculegion, or at least I hope so.

 

[Da Pizza Man]

I don't play NatDex so I have no idea, is Mega Delibird still broken over there? I felt like out of all those mons it would have been the most likely to come back.

Yes, it was quickbanned in Natdex.

 

[Finchinator]

…hang on, which ones are we even thinking about overturning? we've got:

• the one with a 300-bp move
• the other one with a 300-bp move
• the one with a box-legendary base stat spread and 60-bp stab priority
• the subpasser with regenerator and 121 speed
• the special attacker that 2hkos blissey
• marvel's what if delibird was a legendary
• the one that was overbearing enough to be quickbanned before any of these

i honestly don't see any of the current ubers somehow becoming manageable once home drops, aside from houndstone inevitably dropping back down once basculegion comes out and last respects gets banned instead (and a potential shed tail ban allowing people to use koraidon't)

all of the above

 

[wrockstah]

I do think that people are overstating Salt Cure’s role in Garganacl’s brokenness. This isn’t a Cyclizar/Shed Tail or Annihilape/Rage Fist situation, this is a 100/130/90 defensive monster with Body Press, Stealth Rock, and Recover. Salt Cure is just the cherry on top.

I think that you underestimate the power of constant chip damage, while not even being on the field. That is hilarious. High PP and 100 Acc are the cherry on the top here. Not that this alone is amazing already, Salt Cure also deals double chip damage on water and steel types!
Obviously its ability and stats mixed together with Salt Cure make it broken, not the move alone.

 

[YNM]

all of the above

Guess I'll be taking a 5 days break waiting for half of those mons to get inevitably quickbanned back to the Shadow Realm.

 

[1LDK]

Honestly, from the group of what I like to call the "why is this thing legal in the first place" with stuff like etc., the only one that I'm gonna be sad to see gone is she is my favorite of this group and the only one I can actually tolerate, home is looking like a true trial of fire for this gen tiering scene, especially with tera involved, its gonna be fun

Also, I'll try to nominate Chesnaught for a rank, its gonna happen

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

Honestly, from the group of what I like to call the "why is this thing legal in the first place" with stuff like etc., the only one that I'm gonna be sad to see gone is she is my favorite of this group and the only one I can actually tolerate, home is looking like a true trial of fire for this gen tiering scene, especially with tera involved, its gonna be fun

Also, I'll try to nominate Chesnaught for a rank, its gonna happen

deo-d sucks now actually. effectively guaranteeing 3 layers of spikes was the only thing it really had going for it but it's outclassed as a spikes user by mew and also like half the ground-types in the pokedex these days (and hisuian samurott, don't even get me started). it didn't even get enough usage in natdex to hit uu

all of the above

if i see the six-million-dollar penguin in ou one more time i'll melt the polar ice caps myself