Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion

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Soiramio3000 said:
I don't think that corviknight can do much anything against it.
a corviknight with zero attack investment can do a maximum 62.5% damage to an amongus with bold nature and 172 def EVs and 252 hp EVs.
since it can't get a OHKO that means that amoonguss can simply put corviknight to sleep switch and get back almost half the damage corviknight dealt.
not to mention that amoonguss has synthesis making it even harder for corviknight to beat it.
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corviknight doesn't care about anything amoonguss has barring spore, can deal big damage with brave bird and can gain momentum off of its switch with u-turn if amoonguss is forced out. there is no world where corviknight (and its team) doesn't get something valuable out of the amoonguss matchup. and synthesis gets PP-stalled easily by pressure and brave bird deals too much damage for amoonguss to heal off with synthesis

i just don't see what your point is here, if a defensive pokemon can't OHKO another defensive pokemon then it isn't a check and can't do anything? is that what you're saying??
 
Real_Corviknight said:
i just don't see what your point is here, if a defensive pokemon can't OHKO another defensive pokemon then it isn't a check and can't do anything? is that what you're saying??
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I think with a cursory glance of this guy’s posts the issue is something fundamental about his understanding of Pokémon. I don’t know exactly what it is, but it’s like something along the lines of “I need to ohko something to beat it.” The mentality has its basis in reality but ultimately doing 90% to a wall or knocking off their boots/leftovers or something also checks that wall greatly.
 
Mishra said:
Smogon trying really hard to make stall the go to strat again. Record number of unaware pokemon in the tier, ban anything that makes the fat walls cry. If defensive pokemon can't just block everything, lets see what's the next offensive pokmon in the tier to be banned.



A wall that has access to recovery, spore, and the regenerator ability so if it doesn't get one shot, it gets to lock down a pokemon, heal up and do it again.
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Yeah this isn't true but there are enough breakers in the tier that don't need to be considered broken to work. Trick users break stall, and any choice banded / specs mon will usually make a dent on stall teams. Amoonguss gets HARD walled by Gholdengo unless it tera's into something that beats it but yeah, Amoonguss has never been a problem and never will be a problem.
 
Soiramio3000 said:
this is going to need choice specs in order to work but okay. thanks.
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and this is a problem why exactly?
dengo runs trick choice sets commonly and even specs SB can 2hko, let alone make it rain
of course this is all assuming that your statement is true and gholdengo can't just nasty plot in front of amoonguss while it takes off 10% with giga drain
 
Mishra said:
Smogon trying really hard to make stall the go to strat again. Record number of unaware pokemon in the tier, ban anything that makes the fat walls cry. If defensive pokemon can't just block everything, lets see what's the next offensive pokmon in the tier to be banned.
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99853748-3F35-4C0D-B789-CAC639254427.jpeg

Never thought I would have to whip out this image again
 
252+ SpA Tera Steel Gholdengo Make It Rain vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Clodsire: 212-250 (45.7 - 53.9%) -- 45.3% chance to 2HKO

252+ SpA Tera Steel Gholdengo Make It Rain vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Garganacl: 452-536 (111.8 - 132.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252+ SpA Tera Steel Gholdengo Make It Rain vs. 252 HP / 84 SpD Amoonguss: 634-748 (146.7 - 173.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252+ SpA Tera Steel Gholdengo Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 64 SpD Toxapex: 205-243 (67.4 - 79.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

+6 252+ SpA Tera Steel Gholdengo Make It Rain vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey: 680-802 (95.2 - 112.3%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO

Something tells me we don't have to worry about a stall meta.
 
Mishra said:
Smogon trying really hard to make stall the go to strat again. Record number of unaware pokemon in the tier, ban anything that makes the fat walls cry. If defensive pokemon can't just block everything, lets see what's the next offensive pokmon in the tier to be banned.
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You know what? I'm starting to think you people either don't care enough to actually spend more than 2 seconds on the teambuilder to actually put something together, or are just acting stupid on purpose. If you actually think that Stall is anywhere near as good as in the last gens then we can't help, go play Ubers or Doubles. Wah wah Smogon bad
Mishra said:
A wall that has access to recovery, spore, and the regenerator ability so if it doesn't get one shot, it gets to lock down a pokemon, heal up and do it again
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Ever heard of Gholdengo? 2nd most popular mon in the meta right now? No? Don't like it?
 
yNot Mence said:
You know what? I'm starting to think you people either don't care enough to actually spend more than 2 seconds on the teambuilder to actually put something together, or are just acting stupid on purpose. If you actually think that Stall is anywhere near as good as in the last gens then we can't help, go play Ubers or Doubles. Wah wah Smogon bad

Ever heard of Gholdengo? 2nd most popular mon in the meta right now? No? Don't like it?
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Taunt and Substitute are also options they could employ to absolutely dookie on Amoonguss.
 
Soiramio3000 said:
if a pokemon requires overly specific counters then it is considered anti-competitive because it centralizes the metagame around it.
so of course I am going to mention the tiny ammount of answers that I could think at the time as not good.

also 90% damage is not enough when you are dealing with a wall that has access to spore.

the "patience" to wake up is a luxury that isn't always available.
sleep is a very powerfull mechanic,why do you think that the sleep clause exists?
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Using a fairly common offensive typing (fire) isn't using an overly specific counter, these pokemon have a wide variety of other uses beside beating amoonguss. An overly specific counter for example would be tera-dark Clodsire to beat Espathra, this was exclusively used to beat it.

90% damage is an incredibly large amount to deal to a pokemon, this is an amount even Amoonguss can't simply shrug off. I think you need to reeavaluate how you force progress against pokemon with regenerator, because most of the time you aren't going to be able to ohko them. While Amoonguss will heal 33% when it switches out, you ideally want to put pressure on it as it will come back in, as to mitigate the amount of HP it heals. Hazards help an incredible amount with this, since in practice, with one layer of rocks, it is now only healing 21% of it's health compared to 33%.

People had a hard time understanding how to force progress against Toxapex in gen 8, which I can assure you was at least 3x harder to break through than Amoonguss is currently. Learn to play around spore, identify which member of your team is able to be put to sleep, and then pilot around pokemon that favour well against (which multiple people in the thread have posted, as well as basically any fire type).

If you truly believe Amoonguss is anti-competitive, I would urge you to play more, Amoonguss isn't really a mon that forces progress, which is ultimately the goal in pokemon at the end of the day. Steel types in general wall Amoonguss into oblivion and the worse Amoonguss can do is put them to sleep.
 
658Greninja said:
Bro asking to ban Amoonguss when Garg is running around:zonger:
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garganacl does not bother me at all.
its typying is trash defensively(the resistances that actually comes in handy are ghost and fire), and its special defence isn't that great, almost every special attacker can deal with it with 2-3 hits.
even gholdengo can get a 2HKO, if you can bring it in safely it will not even need to carry the covert cloack.

also garganacl is going to have either a suspect test or a quickban sooner or later so it is pointless asking for a ban that is probably going to happen any way.
658Greninja said:
To answer the question,

Gholdengo
Taunt Corv
Baxcalibur
Specs Peli
Sub-Wisp Pult
Zone
the OG Weavile (relevant cause Pao is gone)
Hazards
Knock
Sacking a mon for Spore
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specs peliper? magnezone?these are your examples for perfectly functional pokemon in OU?
why?
peliper is almost useless outside of rain teams, and magnezone is almost useless in pretty much all teams.
even galade functions better in OU that magnezone.
at least gallade can get a OHKO on some walls, including amoonguss.

what are hazards going to do to a pokemon with regenerator which is neutral stealth rock and absorbs toxic spikes?(for some reason when I brought up stealth rock on the debate about chien pao not being so good, people acted as if it was not a good argument, is there a reason why this is not the case here? at least chien pao is weak to stealth rock).

knock off doesn't kill it.

you want to sacrifice a teamate by intentionally making it fall asleep, and you are calling that a reliable strategy?
I wonder why didn't people considered that when banning chien pao.

weavile isn't even good enough to survive in UU,it dropped all the way down to RU, I doubt if it is going to be functional in OU.
its best ice type move isn't a OHKO.
if it falls asleep good luck waking it up.
its best dark stab move is night slash, so I don't think that it is going to see much play in OU now that it lost knock off.

baxcalibur has a chance for OHKO but it is not 100%. I guess he is okay counter. it may need some hazard support.

okay,gholdengo is an actual counter, I have already admited it in previous comment.

sub-wisp pult sounds pretty gimmicky.
are you sure that this tactic is realible and will not put its user in more trouble than it saves him?
what even is the EV distribution for this set?
I want to run the numbers.
 
Athyestic said:
Sleep Well (Flittle) @ Eviolite
Ability: Speed Boost
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Roost
- Stored Power
- Tera Blast

Unrelated to the topic at hand, I'm aware, but hear me out here.
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If you somehow manage to get that thing to +9 between Spa, SpDef and Spe, and you're also able to kill something before getting killed yourself, then you deserve to sweep I don't even care.
 
Soiramio3000 said:
garganacl does not bother me at all.
its typying is trash defensively(the resistances that actually comes in handy are ghost and fire), and its special defence isn't that great, almost every special attacker can deal with it with 2-3 hits.
even gholdengo can get a 2HKO, if you can bring it in safely it will not even need to carry the covert cloack.

also garganacl is going to have either a suspect test or a quickban sooner or later so it is pointless asking for a ban that is probably going to happen any way.

specs peliper? magnezone?these are your examples for perfectly functional pokemon in OU?
why?
peliper is almost useless outside of rain teams, and magnezone is almost useless in pretty much all teams.
even galade functions better in OU that magnezone.
at least gallade can get a OHKO on some walls, including amoonguss.

what are hazards going to do to a pokemon with regenerator which is neutral stealth rock and absorbs toxic spikes?(for some reason when I brought up stealth rock on the debate about chien pao not being so good, people acted as if it was not a good argument, is there a reason why this is not the case here? at least chien pao is weak to stealth rock).

knock off doesn't kill it.

you want to sacrifice a teamate by intentionally making it fall asleep, and you are calling that a reliable strategy?
I wonder why didn't people considered that when banning chien pao.

weavile isn't even good enough to survive in UU,it dropped all the way down to RU, I doubt if it is going to be functional in OU.
its best ice type move isn't a OHKO.
if it falls asleep good luck waking it up.
its best dark stab move is night slash, so I don't think that it is going to see much play in OU now that it lost knock off.

baxcalibur has a chance for OHKO but it is not 100%. I guess he is okay counter. it may need some hazard support.

okay,gholdengo is an actual counter, I have already admited it in previous comment.

sub-wisp pult sounds pretty gimmicky.
are you sure that this tactic is realible and will not put its user in more trouble than it saves him?
what even is the EV distribution for this set?
I want to run the numbers.
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I think you need to reevaluate a strategy, unless you're using a HO team, no game between 2 equally skilled players should go below 20 turns (obviously there are exceptions, but you get the idea)

Sure, you can't kill amoongus in 1 turn, but you can nullify its spore, enter on his attacks, retaliate and giving him less turn to entry, and unless you and amongus hit the field at the same time a 2HKO will suffice, sure, knock off doesn't kill, but now he is itemless, and depending on what he has, it could make your life easier or much easier. Eventually he will run out of options and be force to do drastic decisions, like sacking amoongus, its not a black and white matter, and I'm not suggesting a 1000000000 turn game, just remain calm, play steady and recognize your way out of the situation
 
yNot Mence said:
If you somehow manage to get that thing to +9 between Spa, SpDef and Spe, and you're also able to kill something before getting killed yourself, then you deserve to sweep I don't even care.
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You know, 30/30/30 bulk with Eviolite is enough to not fold over to every single attack. Sure, it takes 80% from most of them, but that's *not* 100%. I can make this work.
 
M24 said:
Using a fairly common offensive typing (fire) isn't using an overly specific counter these pokemon have a wide variety of other uses beside beating amoonguss. An overly specific counter for example would be tera-dark Clodsire to beat Espathra, this was exclusively used to beat it.
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okay you make a point here,these are not thaaaaat specific.
but still forcing one type on every team you make is pretty centralizing no matter how common that type is.
M24 said:
90% damage is an incredibly large amount to deal to a pokemon, this is an amount even Amoonguss can't simply shrug off.
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if amonguss gets 90% damage and puts you to sleep then it can use the next turn to use synthesis to regain 50% health thus taking its health to 60%.from that point it can either heal again or switch and come back later with and get a free 33% through regenerator taking its health to 93%.
if it is holding leftovers/black sludge it goes back to 100 % health.

so yes, it CAN srug it off if it puts your.

90% may be an amazing ammount of damage dealt to any other wall but in amoonguss's case it is not enough.
M24 said:
People had a hard time understanding how to force progress against Toxapex in gen 8, which I can assure you was at least 3x harder to break through than Amoonguss is currently.
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I want gen 8 toxapex banned too, I know what a nightmare that thing was but this is gen 9 forums not gen 8.

M24 said:
If you truly believe Amoonguss is anti-competitive, I would urge you to play more,
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and what's that gonna do?

M24 said:
Amoonguss isn't really a mon that forces progress, which is ultimately the goal in pokemon at the end of the day.
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define "forcing progress",do you mean "beating the opponents pokemon" or you mean something else.
this term seems pretty vague.
 
Soiramio3000 said:
if amonguss gets 90% damage and puts you to sleep then it can use the next turn to use synthesis to regain 50% health thus taking its health to 60%.from that point it can either heal again or switch and come back later with and get a free 33% through regenerator taking its health to 93%.
if it is holding leftovers/black sludge it goes back to 100 % health.

so yes, it CAN srug it off if it puts your.

90% may be an amazing ammount of damage dealt to any other wall but in amoonguss's case it is not enough.
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Remember what people said about identifying which Pokemon on your team is the least useful?

Let Amoongus put something else to sleep before you send Iron Moth in against Amoongus.
 
Soiramio3000 said:
okay you make a point here,these are not thaaaaat specific.
but still forcing one type on every team you make is pretty centralizing no matter how common that type is.

if amonguss gets 90% damage and puts you to sleep then it can use the next turn to use synthesis to regain 50% health thus taking its health to 60%.from that point it can either heal again or switch and come back later with and get a free 33% through regenerator taking its health to 93%.
if it is holding leftovers/black sludge it goes back to 100 % health.

so yes, it CAN srug it off if it puts your.

90% may be an amazing ammount of damage dealt to any other wall but in amoonguss's case it is not enough.

I want gen 8 toxapex banned too, I know what a nightmare that thing was but this is gen 9 forums not gen 8.


and what's that gonna do?


define "forcing progress",do you mean "beating the opponents pokemon" or you mean something else.
this term seems pretty vague.
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Did you ever consider running Safety Goggles on something? I mean, if Amoonguss is that much of a problem for you then you might as well use it. You could also Tera Grass something to absorb the Spore, or well, just use Gholdengo.
 
Real_Corviknight said:
and synthesis gets PP-stalled easily by pressure and brave bird deals too much damage for amoonguss to heal off with synthesis
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by "pressure"?
if you are talking about the ability then it is not affected at all by pressure.
Real_Corviknight said:
i just don't see what your point is here, if a defensive pokemon can't OHKO another defensive pokemon then it isn't a check and can't do anything? is that what you're saying??
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read the comments where I am talkin about the spore, I don't remember if any of them was directed towards you or if all of them were directed to the other people.
I am talking to a lots of people at once so it is hard to keep track of what I said to whom.

in one of them I explained how 90% of damage on amoonguss isn't as much of a deal as it would be in any other wall because if it puts you to sleep it can go to 93-100% on two turns later depeding on if it holds a healing item.
 
Mishra said:
Smogon trying really hard to make stall the go to strat again. Record number of unaware pokemon in the tier, ban anything that makes the fat walls cry. If defensive pokemon can't just block everything, lets see what's the next offensive pokmon in the tier to be banned.
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i can give you a whole laundry list of viable pokemon that shit on stall and/or fat balance teams if you'd like me to
  1. gholdengo
  2. ironpress garganacl
  3. specs iron valiant
  4. DD/CB roaring moon
  5. DD/CB baxcalibur
  6. sub + SD garchomp
  7. dragonite
  8. CB great tusk
  9. kingambit
  10. CB/SD breloom
  11. sub skeledirge
  12. specs greninja
  13. volcarona
and these are just some examples of pokemon that easily break fat once their checks/counters are removed. chien-pao being banned will absolutely not magically revert the metagame back to the stall-laden GSC meta or anything so i don't see the point of bringing this up
 
yNot Mence said:
Alright AndViet you won me over to team Garg Bad, after playing some games today I went from 70% in favour of no action to 70% in favor of banning that shit. You happy now?
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Thank you yNot Mence I'm glad you see where I'm coming from! I am happy, but hopefully in the coming weeks we can get enough traction for a suspect test if the rest of the community feels the same.
 
yNot Mence said:
Alright AndViet you won me over to team Garg Bad, after playing some games today I went from 70% in favour of no action to 70% in favor of banning that shit. You happy now?
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yNot Mence said:
Did you ever consider running Safety Goggles on something? I mean, if Amoonguss is that much of a problem for you then you might as well use it. You could also Tera Grass something to absorb the Spore, or well, just use Gholdengo.
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While I understand that these posts aren't for quite the same reason, given some of the discourse surrounding Salt Guy, this is a very funny pair of posts to me. Especially after the Toxapex comparisons being thrown around.
 
yNot Mence said:
Did you ever consider running Safety Goggles on something? I mean, if Amoonguss is that much of a problem for you then you might as well use it. You could also Tera Grass something to absorb the Spore, or well, just use Gholdengo.
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these are useless aside from avoiding sleep, if the opponent does not have a spore user then the pokemon holding has essentially a useless item.
people can also use covert cloack to avoid the damage from garganacl's salt cure, but this isn't enough to calm down the garganacl's haters.
 
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