Probably A-, maybe B+. I think its power and cvg options kind of seem better than they are. On paper its really good but in practice its power is lacking and I'm not sure if you ever really want to go beyond water/dark/ice cvg on special sets. It also hates the protean nerf. However its obviously still good, with a great but unfortunate speed tier in that it just loses to meow. It has bad 4mss as well, and dislikes meow outspeeding, having better stabs and sucker. Still its good. I think I'd order it as being slightly below Meow and on the same level as Cinder, but this is subject to change obviously.
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion
- Thread starter TPP
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Crazy when gen 9 was released, we thought meowscarada was the worst of the three with the protean nerf and skeledirge and quaquaval were praised very highly. As of today, how times have changed with meowscarada getting used more often than not. Some crazy times.
Hey. We spent a bit of time doing this in OU room. Its just a display of the teras included in the index with a brief description for some of the most popular ones. Nothing too in depth but I hope it helps.
We made around ~28 mons, that is the ones that tera often and that have multiple common teras. Maybe we can up this in the future but for now it should be alr. You can see them by typing '/rfaq tera name' in chat. For example the one above is from typing /rfaq tera great tusk. Here are some of the other ones we made
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I actually have a question about #3 for anyone that's willing to answer. I've seen a lot of replies say that it's an underwhelming item and some even say none of their teams use it. With that being said, would it be viable on Greninja? If not, what item would be better on it? I've been using Life Orb + Spikes set and I haven't really found an issue with the chip because most things fold Greninja in a hit or two usually if it gets counterattacked.
This is partially true, I think when you looked at all the 3 (1st day of release), Skeledirge looked like dogshit because of its typing. Meow was probably mid level, and I think Quaquaval looked like the best because Moxie + a move that increases speed looks really good on paper. Reality, Skeledirge and Meow are fighting for #1, (I'd personally go Dirge) and Quaquaval looks like it's about to be in the UU tier at this rate.
Kind of like Greninja, before the release people were insinuating because of the nerf it didn't look like it was going to be a proper OU mon, but sure is looking like a very good mon thus far in OU.
I don't see how its power is lacking. Contextually, it being a special attacker in a largely physically oriented metagame lets it run through common defensive structures pretty easily. I'm also not sure where you see it having "bad 4mss" given it really only needs its stabs primarily, and the other moved are just what fits best for the team.
Like, in theory this is the case, and it appreciates it to an extent, but base 103 special attack is barely acceptable. it also wants things like ice beam, grass knot, u-turn, spikes along with this, and it can kinda feel not having these things. It's definitely good, it's just not that strong.
still think skeledirge is the best of the three starters. meowscarada is great as a fast pivot and revenge killer, yes, but skeledirge being able to shut down setup sweepers while being able to threaten its own sweep makes it not only a great defensive presence but it also gives it the ability to punch some serious holes into teams with torch song boosts, and its typing gives it a ton of resistances, which allows it to check a wide variety of pokemon, which include but are not limited to cinderace, iron valiant, amoonguss, volcarona, hatterene, corviknight and iron moth, and the amount of threats it can check expands even further with tera in the picture, especially considering that terastallizing skeledirge is a very low opportunity cost play
meowscarada and skeledirge are both very good in the meta and i think teams should always have a way to deal with both of them, but skeledirge being able to compress the roles of both a setup sweeper and unaware wall into one by simply clicking its STAB move is simply too big of an advantage for most teams to pass up
Skeledirge is a reactive pick, and usage depends on and tracks with Volcarona, iron moth, iron valiant, and similar threats.
meowscarada is both reactive and proactive. It forces progress with knock off, which helps it stand out against the other protean starters.
quaquaval was a reactive pick in the CP meta. Unsure how it’ll perform going forward, but it just doesn’t have the utility/power.
meowscarada is both reactive and proactive. It forces progress with knock off, which helps it stand out against the other protean starters.
quaquaval was a reactive pick in the CP meta. Unsure how it’ll perform going forward, but it just doesn’t have the utility/power.
I think LO is still viable but it’s worse than specs since it gives lower damage, however it gives you more flexibility so you’re not locked into one move. Since you’re using spikes, I think it works it’s the best option in that case.
Really? I thought people said she was gonna be the best of the new starters since she had protean and Quaquaval was always dead last because he has slow and fragile.
As for the protean users, I think she’s tied with Ninja, sure she hits harder and KO and SP are excellent but she lacks in the movepool side while Ninja may not hit as hard but has a wider movepool and can run mixed set. I love Cinde but I think he is kinda the worst one from the three (mostly because the ugly cat and Ninja outspeed it)
I don't think anyone really ever slept on Meowscarada. I definitely didn't expect it to probably be the best out of the three starters though. Though I also didn't expect them all to be in OU.
To be fair, "STABs" on a Protean mon isn't narrowing things down necessarily.
Kinda hard to compare the 3 starters viability-wise since they play quite differently. Skeledirge is probably the hardest one to face since its able to be a good roadblock to many sweepers while also posing a sweeping threat and having ways to play around several of its potentiol checks like Garganacl. I've found it to be a bit tricky to use myself though, not because its bad, but because its has a fair share of overlapping weaknesses with other Pokemon I like using like Gholdengo specifically. Also, using Torch Song as an attacking move and a setup move can make it feel like the PP is being drained too fast though this is probably a skill issue.
Quaquaval has the highest ceiling of danger when fighting it, but also feels like it has the most roadblocks like Pokemon like Toxapex and Dragonite can stave it off pretty well. It seems like the most match-up dependent of the trio. Normally, I like would like a Pokemon like Quaquaval since it has multiple setup moves like Bulk Up, Swords Dance, etc. + multiple disruptive options like Roost, Taunt, etc. that it can utilize to disrupt its checks. However, I feel that in most scenarios that I'm considering using Quaquaval, I almost always default back to using Bulk Up Great Tusks instead. Great Tusks' stats are just way better initially, which feels like it makes it easier for it to get to super god mode with Bulk Up + Rapid Spin than Quaquaval and I like the utility it packs with Knock Off since that lets it put pressure on switch-ins if it isn't in a position to sweep.
Meowscarada is fairly straightforward to fight and its potency feels largely position based due to its frailty. Its personally my favorite starter to use though since its fast and has a lot of great utility moves like Sucker Punch, Knock Off, Spikes, Trick etc. Its ability to cuts through stat boosts with Flower Trick is great, but can be a bit tricky to use against some of the more dangerous Bulk Up sweepers like Quaquaval and Great Tusks since they can boosts their Speed. Protean is fun on Choice sets defensively since it shifts some of its weaknesses around, but I do like Overgrow on non-band sets since that lets it maintain its STABs when going for something like Spikes without needing to burn Tera. I do wish it got a better boosting move than Hone Claws though since the lack of real setup move means that its threat level never feels like it reaches the heights that Quaquaval or Skeledirge can reach during a battle.
Quaquaval has the highest ceiling of danger when fighting it, but also feels like it has the most roadblocks like Pokemon like Toxapex and Dragonite can stave it off pretty well. It seems like the most match-up dependent of the trio. Normally, I like would like a Pokemon like Quaquaval since it has multiple setup moves like Bulk Up, Swords Dance, etc. + multiple disruptive options like Roost, Taunt, etc. that it can utilize to disrupt its checks. However, I feel that in most scenarios that I'm considering using Quaquaval, I almost always default back to using Bulk Up Great Tusks instead. Great Tusks' stats are just way better initially, which feels like it makes it easier for it to get to super god mode with Bulk Up + Rapid Spin than Quaquaval and I like the utility it packs with Knock Off since that lets it put pressure on switch-ins if it isn't in a position to sweep.
Meowscarada is fairly straightforward to fight and its potency feels largely position based due to its frailty. Its personally my favorite starter to use though since its fast and has a lot of great utility moves like Sucker Punch, Knock Off, Spikes, Trick etc. Its ability to cuts through stat boosts with Flower Trick is great, but can be a bit tricky to use against some of the more dangerous Bulk Up sweepers like Quaquaval and Great Tusks since they can boosts their Speed. Protean is fun on Choice sets defensively since it shifts some of its weaknesses around, but I do like Overgrow on non-band sets since that lets it maintain its STABs when going for something like Spikes without needing to burn Tera. I do wish it got a better boosting move than Hone Claws though since the lack of real setup move means that its threat level never feels like it reaches the heights that Quaquaval or Skeledirge can reach during a battle.
Damn, ya'll really dead on a Saturday...
Has anyone tried Block Nacl? I've been seeing it on the ladder; I've used it quite a bit in the past I think it can be a really problematic set with various mons that decide to stay in on it to set up SR, knock off, etc.
Garganacl @ Leftovers
Ability: Purifying Salt
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 HP / 228 Def / 28 SpD
Impish Nature
- Block
- Salt Cure
- Protect / Earthquake / Curse
- Recover
Whats your favorite Nacl set that you've been using on the ladder?
Has anyone tried Block Nacl? I've been seeing it on the ladder; I've used it quite a bit in the past I think it can be a really problematic set with various mons that decide to stay in on it to set up SR, knock off, etc.
Garganacl @ Leftovers
Ability: Purifying Salt
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 HP / 228 Def / 28 SpD
Impish Nature
- Block
- Salt Cure
- Protect / Earthquake / Curse
- Recover
Whats your favorite Nacl set that you've been using on the ladder?
Block Garg has been up and coming for a good while now, honestly. I've seen it thrown around a few times. You still struggle vs Covert cloak mons and Dengo, though.Damn, ya'll really dead on a Saturday...
Has anyone tried Block Nacl? I've been seeing it on the ladder; I've used it quite a bit in the past I think it can be a really problematic set with various mons that decide to stay in on it to set up SR, knock off, etc.
Garganacl @ Leftovers
Ability: Purifying Salt
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 HP / 228 Def / 28 SpD
Impish Nature
- Block
- Salt Cure
- Protect / Earthquake / Curse
- Recover
Whats your favorite Nacl set that you've been using on the ladder?
Sorry my internet is dead
Anyways, I remember getting 6-0 by a ghost garga, the guy's name was VietAnd or something idk, Tera Ghost Block Curse Garganacl (or block garga in general) is on the tier of things like Z Tailwind Kartana, Sub Volcarona and Hidden Power Ground Skarmory on what I like to call the "wtf is this bullshit set and why do I keep losing to it" its a set that in paper is easy to play around but your still forced to lose something
Yet another reason to ban garga please when
Block Garg is incredibly annoying when you least expect it and can easily get rid of one of your mons, if you don't have a safe pivoting move such as U-Turn or Volt Switch. While this set is good, I've mainly been using the Curse+Eq set (with Salt Cure and Recover o.c.) and the Utility set with Rocks and Protect. If I have the time I actually wanna try doing what has been suggested by somebody (don't remember who) a while ago, that being keep track of the total damage dealt by Salt Cure in a game, to really get a grasp of what kind of pressure Garg puts in the field.Damn, ya'll really dead on a Saturday...
Has anyone tried Block Nacl? I've been seeing it on the ladder; I've used it quite a bit in the past I think it can be a really problematic set with various mons that decide to stay in on it to set up SR, knock off, etc.
Garganacl @ Leftovers
Ability: Purifying Salt
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 HP / 228 Def / 28 SpD
Impish Nature
- Block
- Salt Cure
- Protect / Earthquake / Curse
- Recover
Whats your favorite Nacl set that you've been using on the ladder?
0 Atk Tera Ghost Garganacl Tera Blast vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Skeledirge: 174-206 (42.3 - 50.1%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
okay i'll admit this calc actually caught me off guard
Wouldn't you just run eq if sub skele is a problem?
If it teras fairy for example, I don't think Nacl can do much against it. I think when Sub Skele teras and has defensive EVs Nacl can't really touch it.
Hello! I wanna start off by saying the start of SV OU has been a fantastic and transparent process (love you council, yall are amazing).
That being said this metagame is a mess.
Now, don't get me wrong for the most part I've enjoyed playing this tier a ton and my SPL matches, for the most part, have been great. Just because I've personally enjoyed the play doesn't mean this process has been entirely enjoyable cause this metagame is horrendous to prep for.
When you open up the teambuilder you have to handle most of the OU metagame and to a lesser extent some UUBL/UU Threats (looking at you Amarouge and Baxcalibur). It isn't reasonably possible to handle most of the threats because of Terastalization.
During the suspect of Terastalization, I most definitely was Pro keeping the mechanic around, I think it is extremely fun to use but prepping for it as we've progressed in this metagame has been a nightmare. Finch has made an amazing resource thread where you can see all the viable and different Teras. If you analyze the thread from a competitive perspective it is impossible to handle all these threats when you go into the builder. The mons that truly are threatening without Tera (Gholdengo, Great Tusk, Garg, Dragapult, Dragonite, Kingambit, Iron Valiant, & probably the most egregious right now Volcarona) adapt to whatever is the popular counterplay to them as that's what Tera allows you do. For example, in the beginning, Tera Flying/Fairy Kingambit was the most popular Tera type as it allowed Gambit to 1v1 arguably its best counter measure Defensive Great Tusk. We the players adapted to this as gambit is such a threatening mon and started using sets like will-o-wisp bulky Volcarona (which to be clear has been used in previous gens) and pokemon like Tauros-Paldea-Blaze/Bulky Wisp Slither Wing. Due to Tera and gambit generally coming in late as most cleaner/late game sweepers do...it was able to easily switch to Tera fire. This left us with limited ways to handle gambit and you hoping to take it out early or deal with planning your entire late game to avoid a sweep by it. Tera Fire Kingambit is also high in Tera usage due to how ridiculous Volcarona is.
Volcarona has been viewed as "broken" in essentially almost every generation it has been available in. Tera could possibly be the straw that broke the camel's back, it has enabled Volcarona to get past all of its checks with relative ease and you find yourself having to burn a tera potentially before they even have to use their tera just to slow it down/stop it in its tracks. Volcarona is so versatile and can grant you an amazing matchup with the right set, it's no surprise it saw Top 3 Usage in W4 which was more than the formerly overused pokemon Chien Pao (#6) & Espathra (#14). Currently, Volcarona has 8 viable Tera's.
I'm going to list some Volcarona "checks/counters" and they'll be tagged with replays of Volcarona beating them.
I'm not calling for Volcarona's immediate suspect/ban. It does though need to be looked at/on the radar in my opinion.
Chien-Pao was admittedly a lot for the tier and I honestly miss it. I thought the tier would become better and it would become easier to build/prepare teams without its presence but if anything discussing with other players it has made things harder. Its removal enlarged threats in Dragapult, Gholdengo, Roaring Moon, and Psy Terrain spam teams in general. I personally wish we would go back to suspecting mons without them on the ladder because I would have voted to keep Pao in the tier. The loss of its breaking power and speed control is deeply missed I feel currently but time will tell if me and others are overreacting early. I completely understand though the philosophy that we aren't suppose to keep certain mons in the tier just to balance other pokemon out. However, in such a power creep metagame with Tera running amuck maybe should take another approach.
Gholdengo is tricky because I personally feel it has been the issue with this tier from day 1 with how it makes hazard stack teams so prevalent with its amazing ability, stats, typing, coverage etc etc. I completely though understand why people feel it holds the tier together and is a neccessary evil. The issue Gholdengo is another problematic pokemon mostly due to Tera. Its Nasty Plot set is truly one of the hardest sets for teams mostly of the balance play style to handle. It is a pokemon that you find yourself using another pokemon's tera to handle (Water Spd Skeledirge, Water Spd Gargcangal, Pure Water Spd Slowking). It still has been able to get past its counters due to it also being able to Tera. Gholdengo in my opinion has been unhealthy and continues to have this metagame in a hazard stack choke hold.
Anyway, I know Terastalization won't be looked at until home most likely. I felt at the time during the suspect Tera would probably be fine until home, I'm fine with admitting I'm wrong. I felt the tier would be better without pao, I was wrong. I hope you guys enjoyed this post and thank you so much for reading. I hope this tier continues prospering and we clean up this mess, and again shoutout to the council for the amazing work they're doing.
That being said this metagame is a mess.
Now, don't get me wrong for the most part I've enjoyed playing this tier a ton and my SPL matches, for the most part, have been great. Just because I've personally enjoyed the play doesn't mean this process has been entirely enjoyable cause this metagame is horrendous to prep for.
When you open up the teambuilder you have to handle most of the OU metagame and to a lesser extent some UUBL/UU Threats (looking at you Amarouge and Baxcalibur). It isn't reasonably possible to handle most of the threats because of Terastalization.
During the suspect of Terastalization, I most definitely was Pro keeping the mechanic around, I think it is extremely fun to use but prepping for it as we've progressed in this metagame has been a nightmare. Finch has made an amazing resource thread where you can see all the viable and different Teras. If you analyze the thread from a competitive perspective it is impossible to handle all these threats when you go into the builder. The mons that truly are threatening without Tera (Gholdengo, Great Tusk, Garg, Dragapult, Dragonite, Kingambit, Iron Valiant, & probably the most egregious right now Volcarona) adapt to whatever is the popular counterplay to them as that's what Tera allows you do. For example, in the beginning, Tera Flying/Fairy Kingambit was the most popular Tera type as it allowed Gambit to 1v1 arguably its best counter measure Defensive Great Tusk. We the players adapted to this as gambit is such a threatening mon and started using sets like will-o-wisp bulky Volcarona (which to be clear has been used in previous gens) and pokemon like Tauros-Paldea-Blaze/Bulky Wisp Slither Wing. Due to Tera and gambit generally coming in late as most cleaner/late game sweepers do...it was able to easily switch to Tera fire. This left us with limited ways to handle gambit and you hoping to take it out early or deal with planning your entire late game to avoid a sweep by it. Tera Fire Kingambit is also high in Tera usage due to how ridiculous Volcarona is.
Volcarona has been viewed as "broken" in essentially almost every generation it has been available in. Tera could possibly be the straw that broke the camel's back, it has enabled Volcarona to get past all of its checks with relative ease and you find yourself having to burn a tera potentially before they even have to use their tera just to slow it down/stop it in its tracks. Volcarona is so versatile and can grant you an amazing matchup with the right set, it's no surprise it saw Top 3 Usage in W4 which was more than the formerly overused pokemon Chien Pao (#6) & Espathra (#14). Currently, Volcarona has 8 viable Tera's.
Grass (Defensive/Offensive),
Fairy (Defensive/Offensive),
Fire (Offensive)
Psychic (Offensive)
Bug (Offensive)
Steel (Defensive)
Ground (Offensive)
Water (Offensive)
Fairy (Defensive/Offensive),
Fire (Offensive)
Psychic (Offensive)
Bug (Offensive)
Steel (Defensive)
Ground (Offensive)
Water (Offensive)
Clodsire - W5 SPL
Azumarill - W4 SPL
Ting Lu - W1 SPL
Tera Fire Gambit - W5 SPL (yes I know it barely lived, tera ground still won the game.)
Talonflame - OST Replay
Toxapex - 1900's Ladder
Skeledirge - OST Replay
Azumarill - W4 SPL
Ting Lu - W1 SPL
Tera Fire Gambit - W5 SPL (yes I know it barely lived, tera ground still won the game.)
Talonflame - OST Replay
Toxapex - 1900's Ladder
Skeledirge - OST Replay
Chien-Pao was admittedly a lot for the tier and I honestly miss it. I thought the tier would become better and it would become easier to build/prepare teams without its presence but if anything discussing with other players it has made things harder. Its removal enlarged threats in Dragapult, Gholdengo, Roaring Moon, and Psy Terrain spam teams in general. I personally wish we would go back to suspecting mons without them on the ladder because I would have voted to keep Pao in the tier. The loss of its breaking power and speed control is deeply missed I feel currently but time will tell if me and others are overreacting early. I completely understand though the philosophy that we aren't suppose to keep certain mons in the tier just to balance other pokemon out. However, in such a power creep metagame with Tera running amuck maybe should take another approach.
Gholdengo is tricky because I personally feel it has been the issue with this tier from day 1 with how it makes hazard stack teams so prevalent with its amazing ability, stats, typing, coverage etc etc. I completely though understand why people feel it holds the tier together and is a neccessary evil. The issue Gholdengo is another problematic pokemon mostly due to Tera. Its Nasty Plot set is truly one of the hardest sets for teams mostly of the balance play style to handle. It is a pokemon that you find yourself using another pokemon's tera to handle (Water Spd Skeledirge, Water Spd Gargcangal, Pure Water Spd Slowking). It still has been able to get past its counters due to it also being able to Tera. Gholdengo in my opinion has been unhealthy and continues to have this metagame in a hazard stack choke hold.
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...tack-peaked-1-2042-ft-jolly-volcarona.3714807
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/black-glasses-chien-pao-rash-garchomp-2150-1.3715095/
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...ne-bulky-offense-peaked-no-1-at-2041.3713988/
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/sv-ou-bazaar.3710954/post-9452926
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/black-glasses-chien-pao-rash-garchomp-2150-1.3715095/
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...ne-bulky-offense-peaked-no-1-at-2041.3713988/
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/sv-ou-bazaar.3710954/post-9452926
Anyway, I know Terastalization won't be looked at until home most likely. I felt at the time during the suspect Tera would probably be fine until home, I'm fine with admitting I'm wrong. I felt the tier would be better without pao, I was wrong. I hope you guys enjoyed this post and thank you so much for reading. I hope this tier continues prospering and we clean up this mess, and again shoutout to the council for the amazing work they're doing.
Yeah but if dirge teras garg just struggles against it period. Especially if you tera ghost you lose the resistance to both fire and ghost at which point you lose extra hard, whereas I think curse can actually 1v1 dirge to an extent (still think it loses to sub).
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