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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion
- Thread starter TPP
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Mew is one I was considering, but
a) it's unranked in Natdex OU rn which obviously has a lot more powercreep from megas etc but it seems weird for it to be basically irrelevant in a similar tier if you're saying it's potentially banworthy in our format
b) in gen 9 it lost all recovery besides Drain Punch and Rest, lost Cosmic Power, lost some of its offensive moves in Knock Off, Sucker Punch, Explosion and Triple Axel, and lost utility in Toxic, Defog and Super Fang.
c) tera doesn't really change mew's counterplay - you're still limited by power on DD sets and speed on SD/NP sets and coverage on double dance sets. yeah sure if your opponent doesn't predict you you'll get a free turn of setup but Mew is not unstoppable after 1 turn.
Glastrier is not broken with Tera. A new type doesn't suddenly send a ZU mon to Ubers. I've used it in a Gen 9 draft league and it's still good on TR teams but it still suffers from a lack of reliable recovery & super slow speed allowing it to be revenge-killed. It already has Ice/Ground/Fighting coverage so rarely needs more unless it wants to tech to lure Corv or something; I just don't think Tera Glastrier is any more broken than a non-Tera'd Melmetal or Ursaluna.
As for the exact number, it's hard to say right now. I genuinely don't believe there are many mons besides Espathra and Regieleki that are balanced without Tera and broken with Tera. And hey even if it does surpass 10, at least that will be a clear sign that we need to take action. I just don't think we can make that call right now.
Non-Tera Espathra can't break past some of the best mons in the tier:
and
, plus almost any Tera Dark mon. Terastalisation is the reason why Espathra is Ubers.
I agree with your comments on Garg, though. I wouldn't support a ban at this stage. I just included it because it's one of the best Tera abusers and it's seemingly pretty controversial right now.
like I said it was mainly stuff that just comes to mind. But the ability to generate free turns with Tera will elevate any viable set up sweeper. The best set up sweeper of the Tier will continue To be on the radar as long as Tera is giving them an Extra turn of set up, or coverage you don’t have.
Shouldn't Pawmot be making more noise than just a regular UU?
It's fast. It's frail, but can easily come into passive stuff
It can revive a mon with one click
It can hit pretty hard with two 120 BP STAB Moves if it wants too
It can REVIVE a mon with one click TWICE per game
I think Pawmot isn't necessarily a problem. It's damn annoying and bringing back a mon from the dead should definitely be looked at. I think the abuse of Leppa Berry is what's really annoying because Revival Blessing is made to be a 1 time move. Do I think there should be action? probably not right now but eventually I can see it being voted on during a survey.
I agree with this. The only "threat" that a Pawmot brings is in 2 Revival Gifts. Especially if they bring back a Pokemon that your team needed 2 or more members to put down the first time. Revival Gift is the only reason that Pawmot really gets considered.
115/70/105 offensive stats aren't too bad, but Electric/Fighting is weird af defensive typing, and its move pool is equally as weird (and a bit lackluster.) Even without Revival Gift, your best sets are like what... Volt Switch 3 attacks Scarf and gloves iron fist with Fake Out, Mach, Ice, Tpunch?
1. hoping we regain transfer moves so that moves such as defog make a comeback. even though i'd hate to see knock off and toxic make a return to the metagame, i'd love it if pokemon like hydreigon or dragonite could function as defoggers again like they did last generation, especially since while great tusk is a phenomenal source of hazard removal, its lack of longevity really hurts its efficiency at its role. hydreigon and dragonite not only would lack this issue thanks to roost, but they'd also be able to force out and defog in front of gholdengo. having more variety in hazard removal than great tusk and i would be very nice
2. i'm excited to use magearna, regieleki and basculegion when they drop. assuming this also includes pokemon not already confirmed, i'm really hyped to use latios and tapu lele due to the amount of tera shenanigans they can pull on defensive checks, such as...
- 252+ SpA Choice Specs Tera Psychic Tapu Lele Psychic vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey in Psychic Terrain: 324-382 (45.3 - 53.5%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
- 252+ SpA Choice Specs Tera Psychic Tapu Lele Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Slowking in Psychic Terrain: 224-264 (56.8 - 67%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
- 252 SpA Choice Specs Tera Dragon Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Clodsire: 306-362 (65.9 - 78%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
- 252 SpA Choice Specs Tera Dragon Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Dondozo: 400-472 (79.3 - 93.6%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
3. on the current banlist, houndstone is definitely getting unbanned and i could see shed tail receiving a suspect test and ban while cyclizar gets rereleased. the others are probably staying banned though
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1. Wider move distribution. Well, kinda. Specifically, Defog and maybe a little bit Knock Off. I'm okay with Toxic being limited to mostly Poison types. I just want Gholden Johnson to have a harder time blocking hazard removal.
2. Aegislash, my baby boy, my beloved. But also because using him with Tera Flying on Nat Dex ladder is my new addiction. I honestly don't think Aegislash would do that incredible when the best physical tanks resist one or more of his STABs while him usually hitting him super effectively back (Kingambit, Great Tusk, Dondozo, so on), but I wanna see it happen.
3: Houndstone for sure. Once Basculegion is in the picture and tearing SV up like an invasive species, the Houndstone ban is probably going to just turn into a Last Respects ban. Also, it looks like Shed Tail might be on the radar soon, so Cyclizar might get out of jail. I'd be down for a new era of Cyclizar as a full support bot with Knock Off/Rapid Spin/U-Turn/Draco Meteor.
Yeah for sure it does have some notable flaws. But compare it to Tusk, the most-used mon in the current meta, for example.
Great Tusk Ursaluna
Great Tusk with Guts + SD + STAB Facade at the cost of Fighting STAB, rapid spin, knock off, and speed.
I think Tusk will continue to be the most used Ground type because it's the only reliable spinner in a Gholdengo meta.
But Ursaluna having 0 switchins, being able to come in on Wisps/Toxics, and not having that Fairy or Flying weakness will mean that, imo, it will be OU by usage and might get support for a suspect in part thanks to Tera.
Elevate? Yeah, of course. But it's not like every set up sweeper becomes banworthy with Tera - just look at lower-tier mons.
isn't even RU this gen.
is by far the best Shell Smasher this gen and hasn't made it to OU despite it loving Tera.
can use Tera to get a free setup turn but still struggles with wallbreaking and being revenge-killed.
is OU but is gradually falling off in usage despite being a great Tera abuser and setup sweeper.
is UU despite also being a setup sweeper benefitting from Tera.When lower tiers are managing Tera just fine, it's an indication that individual broken mons like Espathra are the real problem. Maybe I'm mistaken but I do think Tera is proving to be a healthy addition to some tiers.
1. Mostly just hoping it comes soon :)
I'd like it if some moves came back like Triple Axel, Pursuit, Poltergeist and Meteor Beam, though.
2. Of the returning mons, I'm most excited for Heatran and Zapdos, they're both really fun mons that can help glue teams together whilst also offering strong offensive options. Really fun bulky offense mons that coincidentally also work pretty well together, had a lot of SSOU teams that had those two + Lando as a starting point with 3 more experimental mons in the back.
3. I feel pretty strongly that Zamazenta, Spectrier, Magearna and Urshifu-Single-Strike should all be banned just like they were in Gen 8, hopefully relatively quickly. I'm also against retesting Flutter, Palafin, Annihilape, Chi-Yu etc; only mon really worth retesting is Chien-Pao and then maybe Houndstone if Last Respects is banned.
Elevate? Yeah, of course. But it's not like every set up sweeper becomes banworth with Tera - just look at lower-tier mons.
When lower tiers are managing Tera just fine, it's an indication that individual broken mons like Espathra are the real problem. Maybe I'm mistaken but I do think Tera is proving to be a healthy addition to some tiers.
I think them sucking is more of a question of their own viability Vs what Tera provides for them. Like creludge should have never sniffed OU for example, and now it’s this gens electivre.
But we will see
what does HOME introduce to the meta that checks chien-pao? urshifu? that's getting banned. magearna? also banned. zamazenta? likely getting banned as well. all of chien-pao's potential checks are pokemon that also happen to be broken and meta-warping themselves, and there's nothing else confirmed that can stop it either. i really hope pao stays banned during the HOME meta and gets a retest when DLC gets released, i do not see a world in which it is even close to being balanced in a game without buzzwole or tapu fini, tera or no tera
agreed that the others should stay banned but i do think cyclizar (or rather, shed tail) is worth revisiting, with all the new threats it could then facilitate. but aside from it and houndstone, i do think the others should remain banned, at least, again, until DLC arrives
Eh this is an anomaly. Venomth is genuinely great in RU and it dropping shocked people.
I'll die on this hill but edge was always massively overrated and should've dropped sooner. Yeah it's "viable" but far more dependant on tera than most which makes it super awkward to build around.
I tried vivilon a little, it is a fun gimmick.
what did it do for you? never seen it so i don't know what exactly it does
Transfer moves isn't coming back, sadly. The reason they were removed is because of BDSP being made in an entirely different coding language than the rest of the series. Due to the conflict in coding language and code conversion needing to be done, they scrapped transfer moves and nuked everything going through HOME.
1. Hopefully have more knock off & defog. Like I will never understand why Ninja never learned sucker punch or knock off, especially the later since it's basically a version of thief which he learns, give it knock off!!!. Toxic can stay the way it is, it doesn't need to be learned by everybody and their momma, leave it to poison types and such.
2. I'm excited for Magearna (Although she's getting banned right away), Ursaluna (I know she'll break havoc with that typing and stats, Sneasler (fast and hits like a truck) but super super excited for the Latis (tera electric/dragon latias or latios sounds interesting)
3. Out of the banned mons, I see Anni coming back and so will Espathra. If Basculegion gets LR then the move will be banned and Houndstone will be back, I see Shed Tail being banned and that will bring back Cyclizar and that'd be nice since I see Cycli getting some UU & maybe OU usage since it has good utility, excellent speed and regenerator.
Other thing to keep in mind is that those are checks since Ape could do a lot of damage to them on a switch, especially since Ape was great on hazard stacking teams with it being a spin blocker. But yeah, we agree, tera wasn't what made Ape broken, it made Ape better of course especially against offense, but base Ape had several traits that made it overpowered on its own. Great bulk, moveset, typing, spin blocking, great base speed even uninvested against fat teams and RF punishing stuff like rocky helmet or U-turn was just to dumb and I believe that even when tera gone Ape would have been banned anyways since all of that is too much for defensive teams, making it a match up fishing mon. Also since Revival blessing was mentioned, another dumb thing about rage fist is that it keeps the boosts even after getting KO and revived.
I would like to see mons that we didn't see at gen 8, Gliscor for example could be a great addition, especially if keeps defog.
I can see Ape coming back with a large pool of options to check at first, but I don't think any uber dropping to OU would last for long since we also might get a dlc soon which means tutors so they would gain more tools to be problematic again.
To answer my own question
1) New deffogers, and just a little more Knock off, but not too much and NO toxic, PLEASE
2) Magearna, and Chesnaught, 2 of my personal favorites, both now learn spikes, so maybe we can see Stell Stack with Gholdengo + Mag or Gholdengo + Chesnaught to troll both Corviknight and Great Tusk
3) Houndstone/Last Respects debate in my personal opinion was dumb and there was no point in which you could get lost, but with basculigeon, Hound will finally be on the tier and that MAYBE bring some use to Ttar as a Sand Partner for ONCE
1. Some moveset things. Espeon and Sylveon get Mystical Fire. Sylveon had it in Gen 8, and Espeon should get it as it has an official depiction of being a witch. (Not related to OU obviously). I want Pokemon to get moves by Tutor, not by transfer moves. I think Rapid Spin makes hazards fun to interact with, and gives defensive Ghosts more prominence, which is hard right now considering how offensive Ghosts destroy them. Knock Off actively removes some skill in the builder, and removes choices from the player. Some Pokemon are essentially guaranteed to lose their item against most teamstyles, making that slot practically worthless, and sometimes downright a cosmetic choice rather than actually useful. I see some replies saying "not much Knock Off"; that's the thing with Transfer Moves. You don't get to pick.
Toxic should definitively be Poison-type exclusives. This buffs them, and makes playing the game less annoying. Lastly, with transfer moves, that'd mean a lot of Scald running around. One of the most enjoyable things about Generation 9 to me is being able to use a Physical Attacker against any Water-type. Refreshing.
2. If I'm honest, I see a lot of these as a negative. But Latios will be super fun. It was good in early Crown Tundra but quickly fell off. Without Pokemon such as Ferrothorn, Clefable, and the likes, I'm excited to see if Latios returns to a respectable position in OU. Other than that, I think I'm more excited for Gen 9 Ubers to be an actual tier again.
3. I can't really see any of these suddenly becoming fine unless say, Blissey becomes actually viable with Teleport being learned? That being said, I also am a Transfer Move Hater, so I'd not enjoy that anyways. The only things I can see coming down are related to other things possibly being banned, such as Shed Tail (I don't have much of an opinion on it, nor am I informed, I've just seen a lot of talk about it) and Last Respects (Basculegion can literally 2HKO invested Eternamax.
252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Tera Ghost Basculegion Last Respects vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eternatus-Eternamax: 391-461 (54.7 - 64.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO)
Frankly, I'm in favor of retesting Houndstone and Cyclizar once their moves are banned, but that's it.
There will be nothing new to counter Espathra, Chien-Pao, Flutter Mane, Palafin, Chi-yu or Iron Bundle. Even in national dex they are banned, and it's not Hisui's pokemon that will change the situation. Most of these pokemon were infamous to fight against, the meta is much better off without them.
Even Anihilape, there's not much point in retesting it knowing that Zoroark-Hisui doesn't seem extremely strong and therefore not played a lot.
Beyond that, I'm really looking forward to playing Hisui's pokemon, a lot of them look very promising to me. Overqwil in particular looks very versatile, with his 3 super strong talents, incredible stats, usable both offensively and defensively, an occasionally usable signature move. I have already created many sets for him.
Ursaluna is very very scary, Samurott looks very nice, Liligant promises and Sneasler looks like a very formidable ban worthy.
Team rain will be very strong with Overqwil and Basculegion.
Can't wait to try Palkia-O, or just play a real Uber level.
There will be nothing new to counter Espathra, Chien-Pao, Flutter Mane, Palafin, Chi-yu or Iron Bundle. Even in national dex they are banned, and it's not Hisui's pokemon that will change the situation. Most of these pokemon were infamous to fight against, the meta is much better off without them.
Even Anihilape, there's not much point in retesting it knowing that Zoroark-Hisui doesn't seem extremely strong and therefore not played a lot.
Beyond that, I'm really looking forward to playing Hisui's pokemon, a lot of them look very promising to me. Overqwil in particular looks very versatile, with his 3 super strong talents, incredible stats, usable both offensively and defensively, an occasionally usable signature move. I have already created many sets for him.
Ursaluna is very very scary, Samurott looks very nice, Liligant promises and Sneasler looks like a very formidable ban worthy.
Team rain will be very strong with Overqwil and Basculegion.
Can't wait to try Palkia-O, or just play a real Uber level.
This is some alt calcs I made here:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Quark Drive Iron Valiant Moonblast vs. 240 HP / 252+ SpD Annihilape: 486-572 (115.4 - 135.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Next up, this is a boost from Competitive.
+2 252+ SpA Choice Specs Kilowattrel Hurricane vs. 240 HP / 252+ SpD Annihilape: 786-926 (186.6 - 219.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
And for the future, Hisuian Zoroark will be true counter of Annihilape. it's typing makes it immune to Annihilape STAB moves
Speaking as someone who is going to run H-Zoroark on everything I can because I love it so much, that boy is destined for RU and the comparison is sort of like how people said Tauros-Blaze was a counter to Chien-Pao. Plus all Annihilape has to do is run another attacking move and it's cooked.
How would it get the Competitive boost switching in on Ape?
Redid the survey. At first I put volcarona at a 4 but i honestly think it might be a 5 with new tera tech being devised for it. Volcarona is already difficult to stop after a qd and being able to change tera to get another boost is too much and makes it too difficult to stop, especially because once it gets going its very easy for it to sweep games. even abusing its bad physical bulk is hard because of flame body. I think its movepool, stats, and ability work together too well, and I really think tera ground sets are going to be what pushes it over the edge; even Heatran isn't going to actually be a counter anymore (unless it blows its own tera, which doesnt sound the healthiest). I always cringe when I run into this on the ladder and i think counterplay is too unreliable with tera ground sets existing now bar like, ting lu. I wouldn't be opposed to a qban of this, but I think at least some form of action needs to be taken. it's just too strong of a tera abuser.
edit: I think someone should look at the sheer amount of times tera fire shows up in the tera index and ask how much of these are techs for volc
edit: I think someone should look at the sheer amount of times tera fire shows up in the tera index and ask how much of these are techs for volc
Bruh if you're banking on Magearna staying in OU, I've got some bad news.....
To answer though
1) Any hopes for HOME?
Honestly just excited for type diversity. There's so much that's really lacking and it makes certain tera types way too safe. I hope it shakes the metagame up a bit because with how small the roster is, so many teams end up looking pretty similar, and so many tera types just feel like generic neutrals (fairy, water) to compensate for iffy natural typing rather than specifically chosen counters. Zapdos will shock generic waters, and maybe the Slowtwins/Sneasler can do something about the fairies? Maybe that's too optimistic.
2) Any Pokémon that you are hyped to see back?
Unless you count the Hisuians as coming back, I'm mostly just excited for Regidrago. He's gonna be crazy with being able to shift into Steel or Ground.
Hisuian Zoroark is extremely hype though. I'm a huge fan of mindgames and whatever tier that thing ends up in (prob UU), it'll be great.
Volcanion might find another great OU niche as it'll be able to burn again on a really safe move. I hated scald as much as the last guy but this generation has had way too heavy a physical attacker swing, and it doesn't look like the rest of Home is going to do too much about that.
3) Any Pokémon on the banlist that may or may not change thanks to the new environment?
Besides Houndstone, I don't think so. Annihilape is the closest thing to a maybe just because there's so much status coming back, water is becoming a much less safe Tera type (Zapdos can punish HARD, and if it doesn't go Water it's so much easier to counter), and a hard counter in Zoroark will exist, but I still don't think it belongs. It's just too polarizing and it feels really dumb to play either as or against.
Of course, I know, that's why I'm probably gonna use the 2 on a team, post a RMT, get 100000000000000000 Hahas and a Mag quickban the next day
Am I the only one kinda hoping for no full release like Home does? I find the tiers get substantially less interesting when almost everything is released because just objectively better mons end up taking over everything and the signature stuff we've seen so far this gen will slide down to UU and lower. Garganacl being UUBL in Natdex says a lot to me.
I've liked the gradual release method via Tera raids and wouldn't mind them continuing that over just dumping everything in. Off the top of my head I'd be happy to see Slowking-Galar, Cresselia, Diancie, Muk-Alola, and all the various Hisui forms in the game.
As for the banlist it seems obvious Last Respects ban will result in the release of Houndstone but I doubt it has an impact in OU once that happens. I'm hoping Annihilape doesn't get unbanned as I hate the effect it has on play but it does look the closest to being handlable with some power creep in the meta. I can't see other bans changing unless we reevaluate Tera or Shed Tail.
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