Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion

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honestly it kinda sucks that species clause prevents me from using regular zoroark and hisuian zoroark on the same team because good lord the mindgames you could play with those two. dark and normal/ghost have pretty good defensive synergy, and even if your opponent susses out that it's a zoroark through stuff like hazard damage or frisk or something that doesn't indicate typing/movepool, they still have to guess which one it is. definitely a gimmick team but it would have been a really fun one
Species clause should have been turned into form clause 2 gens ago and I will die on this hill. Every time I bring it up though, I get replies about there being “no reason to change it” even though the burden of proof should be on something needing to STAY banned, not on it needing to be essentially tested for the first time when it theoretically wouldn’t impact OU in any significant negative way ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
 
Gonna jump in with the Home discussion so I’m just gonna talk about what I think will be good, viable, or broken.

The Broken
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The four horsemen of the OU apocalypse, no shot they are staying. In fact GF in their infinite wisdom decided to buff them. Lando-I has always been broken but now it has NP AND Tera to work with. Magearna gained two potential checks in Skele and Clod. This is meaningless in Mag terms. Clod is just WP Stored Power bait, Skele can barely take on Specs or Stored Power. This is all without even factoring in Tera which makes it even more busted than it already is. Spectrier was never designed for Gen 9. Originally, Spect had no coverage, but they decided to give this thing Draining Kiss cuz f u. Garg is a thing but Spect has always ran Sub-CM sets. Darkfu had its main STAB nerfed, but it doesn’t matter when it also gained SD. Clefable and Mandi not being in the tier is just additional fuel to the fire.

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These two will most likely get banned (the latter assuming Tera doesn’t get banned). Enam has 135 SpA, 106 Sped, and perfect coverage. Nothing wants to switch into Mblast/EP/Mystical/Psychic at once. Valiant on crack. The only thing I can see balancing this thing is the speed and its rock weakness, but the coverage is insane. Eleki was balanced by the simple fact of not having any coverage. Eleki is an example of a mon that was never meant to be in Gen 9. Tera eliminates its one weakness and makes it unwallable.

The Staples
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The OGs of SS OU. They will def be one of the best mons in the meta. Torn lost Knock and Defog, but gained Bleakwind Storm, an improvement from Hurricane. Nasty Plot, Boots, and AV are all improved by Tera. Whatever it is to boost its dmg or to eliminate its Rock weakness. Tran is Tran. Sets Rocks, is impossible to fully-counter, and checks a bunch of stuff. Tera enhances its dmg output and defensive prailess. Ghold, Skele, and non-Fighting STAB Valiant are new victims for it.

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Torn-T losing Knock means Zapdos can now consistently switch into it. Electric/Flying STAB is stronger than ever, especially with Tera. Lando-T got big nerfs and competition with Tusks, but it will be a top pick regardless. It received Taunt, letting it act as a disruptior on top of its old roles from last Gen. People forget about how much role compression it has. Ground/Electric immune, Pivot, Rock setter, and just being a glue. Tera potential consists of Tera Flying, Water, Fairy, etc, depending on what it is tasked on checking. Watershifu was already great, but the addition of SD will change the way it is played. Its presence will demand more bulky waters and Future Sight support from the Slowkings. Sneasler is a mon with 130/120 offenses, a broken signature move, and Poison Touch U-Turn. It being a fighting type adds insult to injury. G-King, Pex, and Ghold seem to be the best counterplay to it as they resist both of its STABs while being immune to Poison. Dire Claw however, has a 30% chance to para or put them to sleep, limiting the safest switch-in to be Ghold. Its role seems to be a cleaner that chips down teams in the early-to-mid game similarly to Zera last gen.

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G-King gets a massive buff with Chilly Reception. Its also the perfect Valiant check. OHKOs with Sludge Bomb, its SpD is high enough to eat a Sball, and Regen. Its also still a pain in the ass to switch into, even less so with the Recovery move nerfs. It might also be the only thing that can “check Enamorus” among other things. Be prepared for Glowking/Watershifu/Pult cores to arise again for the second gen in a row. Volcanion is slept on hard whenever Home is discussed. All you need is one word, Tera Water Volcanion. Makes its Steam Eruption busted, removes its sr weakness, and removes its ground weakness. Plus, with rain becoming even stronger with the new additions, Volcan will be an important part of staving off rain or being a big part of it. Speaking of Rain, Basculegion is the next big rain abuser since Mega-Pert and Barra. The perfect speed tier for abusing Swift Swim, powerful Wave Crashes, decent enough bulk, and priority. Outside of Rain it can be Crawdaunt 2.0 and abuse CB Adaptability boosted Wave Crash. Also Tera Water is broken. Rilla might have been nerfed but Grassy Terrain is still the best one. Think about how many mons would benefit from a good setter. Tusks, Skele, Meow, Gambit, Ghold, Pex, Dozo, Volc, Moth, Garg, etc. Even if it ends up losing Grassy Glide, it still has boosted Wood Hammers, U-Turn, and Knock Off. Tera also can shed off its defensive typing or make its STABs even better.

The Good
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Enamo-T is underrated. With the same sky high SpA with great bulk and a fantastic defensive typing to boot. Fairy/Flying resists and is immune to some important types, those being Ground, Fighting, Dragon, Grass, and Dark. With CM + Three Attacks, it is essentially a fatter Hatt without Magic Bounce. Goltres with Tera + Screens is a beast, and plus its in a meta with less Toxic, No Koko, and No Clef. With how much offense was buffed this gen, Goltres may find itself to be OU this gen rather than just being good in OU. Hisuian Samu shows alot of promise with its new signature move. An offensive move that sets spikes. It is also not to shabby offensively or defensively. Packing strong STABs boosted by Sharpness, SD, and Sucker Punch. Its bulk is not good but the defensive typing lets it get 1-2 switch ins vs Ghold, Gren, and Gambit to get off a layer of spikes. I could see either SD, Sash lead, or AV becoming a thing. Hustle historically has been unreliable, so I don’t see it being the big thing. Instead it will be a staple on Sun teams with its speed tier, Victory Dance, and strong STABs + coverage. Sleep Powder is just extra on an already offensive threat. Tera Fighting for stronger CC or Tera Ice to completely eliminate Amoonguss or Zapdos.


The Niche
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Tera Dark CB Hyperspace Fury is something out of nightmares. This shit has Pao’s atk stat (factoring in Swords of Ruin) with even better Dark STAB. No Tapus and just the minimal amount of fairies in the tier makes its STAB very spammable, Tera Dark also removes its 4x U-Turn weakness and lets it resist Dark. However it is still slow and not that bulky, so it won’t be a staple. This next one is for you 1DLK. Ches is Ferro but with recovery, and an immunity to Sball, Sludge Bomb, Focus Miss, Pyro, and Gyro. With Tera Steel, Fairy, or Water, it could act as a check to Pult and Ghold. Its defensive typing as a whole lets it check Tusks, Meow, Gambit, Watershifu, etc. Less fairies, less Defog distribution, and no Ferro has also helped Ches immensely, There is a possibility of it having a worthwhile niche in OU. The other Grass/Fighting starter. Hisuian Decid looks to be a niche Defogger. The biggest thing about it is its a Defogger that beats Ghold AND doesn’t rely on Boots. MiR and Sball fail to 2HKO Decid, meanwhile it threatens with Scrappy Triple Arrows. Its not just a glorified anti-Ghold Defogger, its a Defogger that resists rocks, has U-Turn, has Knock, checks Meow, Tusks, and Gambit. Also Triple Arrows is a broken move with a high crit chance, dfse drop, and a small flinch chance. If it was on an already good fighting type and not on Decid, they’d skyrocket or get banned.

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This is not G-Zap’s gen. Defog distribution is much lesser and its duty of punishing Defog is already taken by Ghold who also is a great check to it. It still has a role of punishing Tusks and Lando, but its niche is not much in demand. Better Flamigo everyone. Thundy-T is gonna return to its standard role as a rain abuser. With Tera Flying it can now use Flying STAB, and it also punishes the bulky waters that will arise due to the new rain abusers. Ursaluna seems promising, but the lack of defensive utility and its competiton with Offensive Tusks makes things rough. The increased use of spikes cuts down its amazing bulk. I could still see this thing as a viable slow wallbreaker that is immune to ghost and electric and absorbs status. Basculegion-F is another new rain abuser. Water/Ghost has very few switch ins. It has to compete with its male-counterpart, but it will find a niche to separate from it.

Other Thoughts
-Ghost competition is way to abundant for H-Typhlosion to find a place.
-Hisuian Avalugg sucks lmao
-H-Arcanine is too slow for OU, however UU or RU can appreciate a decently fast Head Smash mon.
-Overqwil seems promising in UU or RU, not sure if it will find a niche in OU.
-H-Electrode sucks, but it will be good in NU maybe.
-H-Goodra doesn’t have alot of defensive utility to reach OU but you never know.
-Cress got simultaneously buffed and nerfed. It seems too Tera reliant but perhaps with Trick Room or Scarf Trick Lunar Dance sets, it could find something in the meta.
-Hisuian-Braviary seems like a threatening snowballing machine with Specs Tinted Lens Esper Wing……In RU.

As for mons that could be unbanned
-Ban Last Respects and bring back the Hound.
-Keep Flutter Mane, Palafin, Chi-Yu, and Bundle far away from OU.
-Espa would be broken regardless unless they ban Tera.
-Pao could have a chance of staying with the increased power level and the addition of Tran and Watershifu to keep it in check.
-If the issue was Espa the whole time, then Cyclizar might have a chance to stay.
-Ape is the most likely to stay besides Hound. The increased power level and Torn might be able to power through the monkey.

Not confident watershifu would stay with sd in its movepool, because pex and a few other fat waters could stop it last gen. With SD you aren't stopping Watershifu at all, even if dondozo sounds like a good counter in theory because all urshifu has to do is hit taunt and dondozo can't curse or rest, making it fold as the curse/rest talk sets get ruined. Watershifu is definitely something that could and likely will get quickbanned. SD breaks this thing hard. Was already really good in gen 8 and is probably broken now.
 
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Speaking of Rain, Basculegion is the next big rain abuser since Mega-Pert and Barra. The perfect speed tier for abusing Swift Swim, powerful Wave Crashes, decent enough bulk, and priority. Outside of Rain it can be Crawdaunt 2.0 and abuse CB Adaptability boosted Wave Crash. Also Tera Water is broken. Rilla might have been nerfed but Grassy Terrain is still the best one. Think about how many mons would benefit from a good setter. Tusks, Skele, Meow, Gambit, Ghold, Pex, Dozo, Volc, Moth, Garg, etc. Even if it ends up losing Grassy Glide, it still has boosted Wood Hammers, U-Turn, and Knock Off. Tera also can shed off its defensive typing or make its STABs even better.
Unless you run max HP (which nobody's gonna do) Basculegion's bulk is pretty ass, so running Adaptability over Swift Swim in Rain will never be an option considering how easy it will be to revenge kill it, although you could play some nice mind games with it. Outside of Rain, as you've said, it's probably gonna become Craw 2.0 considering that it has access to Aqua Jet and a strong Adaptability boosted Wave Crash. Unfortunately it does lack a consistent ghost type move, such as Poltergeist, since Phantom Force can easily be predicted and switched into with a ghost resist, even with Adaptability (Banded PF with a Jolly Nature does 30.6-36.3% to Kingambit with little HP investment). I honestly think that you're overestimating Rilla, since Grassy Glide, Superpower and High Horsepower were all staples of its sets and this gap will now hinder its versatility in the tier, especially against faster mons and Steel types. I'm not saying that it's gonna be bad to the point of dropping to UU, but I highly doubt it's gonna become a staple of the tier and I believe instead it'll be a niche for setting Grassy Terrain, in order to exploit some old strategies such as SD Acrobatics or Unburden Lucha. If we get back the Tapus it's also gonna face competition from other Terrain setters.
The Niche
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Tera Dark CB Hyperspace Fury is something out of nightmares. This shit has Pao’s atk stat (factoring in Swords of Ruin) with even better Dark STAB. No Tapus and just the minimal amount of fairies in the tier makes its STAB very spammable, Tera Dark also removes its 4x U-Turn weakness and lets it resist Dark. However it is still slow and not that bulky, so it won’t be a staple.
I think we should give more credit to Hoopa-H. Although 80 Spe is nothing to go crazy about, one of its most common sets in gen 7 was Choice Scarf, which managed to find a solid niche in a meta runned by Megas. You could easily run a Mixed Scarf set with both Hyperspace Fury and Psychic, in order to threaten both Physically defensive and Specially defensive mons, and with Tera Dark, a 419 Atk stat and a 100 BP STAB this thing will become Pao-light in terms of Sheer Power. I think it deserves to be put at least alongside the other "Good" mons.

Oh and I also highly doubt Urshifu-RS will stay in OU with SD, considering that it was already almost OP for gen 8's OU.

PS. No Kleavor?
 
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PS. No Kleavor?

Rock/Bug isn't that great offensively, but I do see a small niche as a hazard scarfer, and its offensive movepool is okay so it may be good, but I don't see it being OU.
Most people are probably gonna opt for hisuirott though for offensive hazard setting as water/dark is a far better type offensively and you can slap a scarf or an assault vest to help with bulk or speed issues. Its also easier to justify a move that sets 3 layer of spikes over one that sets rocks as a ton of things already run rocks anyway because of how busted they are, and having a water dark that can lay down hazards and possibly use knock seems really good as it means boots aren't an option to play around hisuirott that aren't scarfed.

As for things that could come back:

Cyc if shed tail gets yeeted. (Which judging the heavy discourse could get suspected in the near future.)

Chien thanks to possibly more burns being chucked around. (Thanks heatran!)

Houndstone if last respects gets yeeted.
 
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Rock/Bug isn't that great offensively, but I do see a small niche as a hazard scarfer, and its offensive movepool is okay so it may be good, but I don't see it being OU.
Most people are probably gonna opt for hisuirott though for offensive hazard setting as water/dark is a far better type offensively and you can slap a scarf or an assault vest to help with bulk or speed issues. Its also easier to justify a move that sets 3 layer of spikes over one that sets rocks as a ton of things already run rocks anyway because of how busted they are, and having a water dark that can lay down hazards and possibly use knock seems really good as it means boots aren't an option to play around hisuirott that aren't scarfed.
With a 130 base Attack and an almost 100 BP STAB move (Stone Axe is boosted by Sharpness) I really don't think that resistances will matter much, considering that you get free Rocks as a bonus. It also gets a STAB U-turn, so it can easily pivot around with Scarf. Its only true downside in my opinion is its Stealth Rock weakness, but you could Tera-Fight to resist it plus STAB on your Close Combat, so there are ways to work around it. I think it could be a solid B- or B tier mon for OU, and it will be very much appreciated in HO strategies.
in fact, it was so op in gen 7 that it didn't even exist
Lmao I still have a "last gen was gen 7" mindset, I still need a couple more weeks to get used to it. Lemme edit it.
 
PS. No Kleavor?

Kleavor’s defensive typing is shit. Both STABs are resisted by the two most common pokes Tusks/Ghold and more on top of facing competition from other physical threats. The move Stone Axe sounds good, but the lackluster speed + lack of priority hurts it. I could see it doing good in the lower tiers.
 
Rock/Bug isn't that great offensively, but I do see a small niche as a hazard scarfer, and its offensive movepool is okay so it may be good, but I don't see it being OU.
Most people are probably gonna opt for hisuirott though for offensive hazard setting as water/dark is a far better type offensively and you can slap a scarf or an assault vest to help with bulk or speed issues. Its also easier to justify a move that sets 3 layer of spikes over one that sets rocks as a ton of things already run rocks anyway because of how busted they are, and having a water dark that can lay down hazards and possibly use knock seems really good as it means boots aren't an option to play around hisuirott that aren't scarfed.
What do you mean by sets 3 layers of spikes? If the suggestion is Samurott being able to get out 3 CE uses to lay them, I'm not sure it can threaten enough to do that by itself a 1 layer per attack, at least not specifically with CE (Knock Off, Sacred Sword, and Razor Shell can put pressure but then obviously that's not Spiking).

What I think it more significant is Hamurott has the ability to threaten Tusk as the primary Hazard removal + Dark resist AND get the Spikes up against Hatterene Switches while forcing more prediction (Ceaseless Edge is free Spikes regardless). While Hat can scare out with Draining Kiss at +0, Knock Off hurts its longevity a lot, something a Magic Bouncer desperately needs even for dealing with other Hazard setters. Forming an actually perfect core with Gholdengo is the icing here.

Kleavor though I think is being approached from the wrong lens. You're not running Stone Axe specifically for SR, but because Rock is very strong coverage coming off a high stat and ~Stone Edge level power without the accuracy. Setting Rocks while threatening targets out eases prediction to a potentially monstrous degree, so the appeal is being a wallbreaker who assists itself with riskless Hazards (as if we don't have enough of THAT right now). That said I do think he's a generation late for optimal environment, with Defog and easy Hazard removal (thus the demand for frequent rather than quick-but-non-repeated Hazards) declining, along with Speed Creep (he comes out 1 point ahead of Gholdengo but can't challenge most of the current Scarfers even with one of his own) and a decline in defensive teams that his slow power would fare well against.

This started as a defense but I think more turned into additional perspective on mons that I see a B+ OU and B+ UU viability for optimistically and respectively.
 
Speaking of Home, do we know if Ultra Beasts are coming back? They've always been treated as semi-legendaries more than average mons, so I'd assume they would get the Tapu's treatment.
 
Speaking of Home, do we know if Ultra Beasts are coming back? They've always been treated as semi-legendaries more than average mons, so I'd assume they would get the Tapu's treatment.
From what I know, they won't for now, maybe in the DLC´s, in my personal opinion, I don't want any of the tapus or UB, I really don't mind the tapus at all but both are on the same package, and the ultra beast are cancer, specially both Kartana and Blacephalon, I absolutely hate them
 
I think we should give more credit to Hoopa-H. Although 80 Spe is nothing to go crazy about, one of its most common sets in gen 7 was Choice Scarf, which managed to find a solid niche in a meta runned by Megas. You could easily run a Mixed Scarf set with both Hyperspace Fury and Psychic, in order to threaten both Physically defensive and Specially defensive mons, and with Tera Dark, a 419 Atk stat and a 100 BP STAB this thing will become Pao-light in terms of Sheer Power. I think it deserves to be put at least alongside the other "Good" mons.
Another thing to keep in mind is that special Hoopa can destroy the pre tera unaware trio at neutral without it having to use tera himself.

252 SpA Hoopa-Unbound Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Dondozo: 452-532 (89.6 - 105.5%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Hoopa-Unbound Psyshock vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Clodsire: 476-564 (102.8 - 121.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
So fat teams will have a hard time dealing with it having access to NP, especially since Hoopa-U is a mon that can run several sets so you can get a lot of free turns easily while they try to scout.
 
Alas, poor Kleavor. The elegant simplicity of Scizor's design, with an extremely complimentary typing that makes it strong yet balanced, all the stats exactly where it needs them, and the perfect ready-made niche with Technician and Bullet Punch, is lost on that awkward fella. Bug/Rock is catastrophically awful defense typing, and 85 Speed isn't enough to act as a more aggressive version of Scizor. When it drops, people are gonna Scarf it, use Stone Axe, and stop using it in like two weeks.
 
electrode-hisui.png

Electrode-Hisui @ Leftovers
Ability: Soundproof
Shiny: Yes
Tera Type: Steel / Flying / Ghost
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Leech Seed
- Taunt / Giga Drain
- Protect / Thunderbolt / Discharge

Likely won't be an OU mon by any stretch, but I think this mon was made for SubSeed in mind. Tied for the fastest Leech Seed user ever with Caly-S, Soundproof to naturally block Roar, Perish Song, Boomburst, Hyper Voice, etc, Taunt to block Whirlwind, and Electric STAB to deal with Flying and Steel-types. I see Tera-Steel being the best one for its ability to resist U-turn and be immune to Toxic Spikes and Poison in general. Flying works too for the ability to dunk on Tusk and Ting-Lu while still resisting U-turn and being Toxic Spikes-immune, but gain a SR weakness and you're not immune to Toxic. Could even go Ghost to block Rapid Spin. I could see a non-attacking set of Sub / Seed / Taunt / Protect actually being really annoying in some circumstances. It can prevent just about every other Taunt from going off thanks to its base 150 Speed, and it can scout for opposing Taunts with Protect, which also gives it another turn of Leftovers recovery. Attacks on the set can work fine, though, and it needs to watch for Hatterene.

That being said, this thing will be bad in OU no matter the set. Infinitely walled by Amoonguss and other Grasses, smoked by Infiltrator Dragapult, can't use Leech Seed on Hatterene, terrible special attack stat, and much more. Will be fun to use in the lower tiers, though.
 
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I did 6 sets for Overqwil, I really can't wait to play this Pokémon. Which do you think are viable?

https://pokepast.es/b48f29aee2d5e931
I like defensive Overqwill the most, with double Spikes and either 2 moves for coverage or Crunch+Toxic (I think you always wanna run a Dark move to threaten Gholdengo). Its typing is very good defensively, but the Ground weakness is pretty bad, so Toxic can at least help it against Tusk and other common physical threats that have EQ. By the way, if you wanna run Destiny Bond I'd suggest you to make a max HP/max Spe set with a Jolly Nature.
 
Kleavor’s defensive typing is shit. Both STABs are resisted by the two most common pokes Tusks/Ghold and more on top of facing competition from other physical threats. The move Stone Axe sounds good, but the lackluster speed + lack of priority hurts it. I could see it doing good in the lower tiers.

The speed is around mid to average for the tier, it's not that bad when you consider how many common mons sit around 80-90. Moreso, yeah Tusk resists both but Kleavot would just get up rocks, and/or uturn out. This would be extra nice if spikes were already up, which would chip Tusk. Gholdengo meanwhile, unless invested in bulk actually takes about a quarter of its health from stone axe and is giving Kleavot free rocks. You say it would face competition from other physical threats, but what exactly can compete with damage+rocks on a strong attacking type like rock? It compresses good offense with that unique role nothing else fulfills. It'll probably be a common sight on HO and teams who want quick momentum, especially since it has stab uturn off 130 atk. Oh and the Great Tusk issue can be circumvented by tera flying+aerial ace (boosted by sharpness).

also not really sure how you can suggest Rilla would be anywhere near a staple. It was hard carried by grassy glide last gen and without it, it's got no hope. Gterrain is nowhere near enough a reason to justify a Mon who provides no defensive utility or is so flawed offensively. It's destined for the lower tiers now.

This is not G-Zap’s gen. Defog distribution is much lesser and its duty of punishing Defog is already taken by Ghold who also is a great check to it. It still has a role of punishing Tusks and Lando, but its niche is not much in demand. Better Flamigo everyone.

Also feeling a bit lost here too. Defog punishing was a nice role in a meta with more defog that last gen had, but without it, you don't need it for that. Now you just run it for Offensive qualities and those are good qualities. Speed, insane power, near impossible to wall. And Gholdengo, unless defensively invested, isn't switching to choice band brave birds comfortably.

and a decline in defensive teams that his slow power would fare well against.

Actually we're likely to see an increase of bulkier, slower teams as the meta settles. We did get plenty of great defensive options this gen and several good ones are returning.
 
Gonna jump in with the Home discussion so I’m just gonna talk about what I think will be good, viable, or broken.

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These two will most likely get banned (the latter assuming Tera doesn’t get banned). Enam has 135 SpA, 106 Sped, and perfect coverage. Nothing wants to switch into Mblast/EP/Mystical/Psychic at once. Valiant on crack. The only thing I can see balancing this thing is the speed and its rock weakness, but the coverage is insane. Eleki was balanced by the simple fact of not having any coverage. Eleki is an example of a mon that was never meant to be in Gen 9. Tera eliminates its one weakness and makes it unwallable.
Again, I really just don't see it with Enamorous. I think we would all agree that in order to actually do the crazy things it's capable of, it needs either a Life Orb or Specs. It simply cannot be a wallbreaker without some form of damage boosting.

252+ SpA Enamorus Earth Power vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Clodsire: 160-190 (34.5 - 41%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Enamorus Earth Power vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Clodsire: 208-247 (44.9 - 53.3%) -- 34.4% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Enamorus Earth Power vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Clodsire: 238-282 (51.4 - 60.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ SpA Enamorus Moonblast vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Tera Fairy Skeledirge: 153-180 (37.2 - 43.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Enamorus Moonblast vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Tera Fairy Skeledirge: 199-234 (48.4 - 56.9%) -- 90.6% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Enamorus Moonblast vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Tera Fairy Skeledirge: 228-268 (55.4 - 65.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

The problem this compounds on is that it's simply too slow to outspeed a lot of offensive Pokemon. Against HO, it can't do very much, and while against a balance/stall SpDef core it can certainly be scary, it's put in a questionable situation either way. If you choose to go with Life Orb, you're weak to Stealth Rock, and you're put on a hard timer. If you choose to go with Choice Specs, sure, any ONE hit can do a scary amount of damage, but then they can switch to something that resists the second, and you're nowhere near strong enough to really win the game with that one single hit. And now you have to switch back out again, taking even more rocks damage. Sure, it can help with pressure, but so can a lot of other Pokemon, so that's nothing special.
And honestly, these calcs aren't that much scarier than Valiant which resists rocks and is much more threatening as a mixed attacker by virtue of having two actual STABs that fit nicely on both ends. It also much more cleanly fights HO by virtue of being the fastest thing around. Electric coverage is also really great for Corv as it hits far harder than Mystical Fire. Valiant is still the more reliable choice.

252 SpA Choice Specs Iron Valiant Moonblast vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Tera Fairy Skeledirge: 190-225 (46.2 - 54.7%) -- 61.3% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Iron Valiant Psyshock vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Clodsire: 370-436 (79.9 - 94.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Enamorous is new toy syndrome.
 
Again, I really just don't see it with Enamorous. I think we would all agree that in order to actually do the crazy things it's capable of, it needs either a Life Orb or Specs. It simply cannot be a wallbreaker without some form of damage boosting.

It hardly needs specs or life orb to wall break off of a 135 special attack stat. Yeah some mons can switch into it, but that's not the end of the world. Clodsire also is fairly passive and can be overwhelmed by hazards (spikes), plus Enamorous can beat non poison move Clod with taunt (which are most Clod). While Skeledirge isn't guaranteed to be spdef as it's no longer under near as much pressure to run the set without Espathra around. It's got a lot more freedom to run physdef now if it wants. Regarding comparisons to Iron Valiant, yes Valiant is faster by some margin. However you're kind of overselling Enamorous being slow. Its speed is still strong and the typing lets it chase out faster mons anyways, beating Meowscarada and Dragapult, has a decent match up into Valiant, gets free switches into Great Tusk and Garchomp... And the main separating factor from Valiant to Enamorous is Enamorous has a way better defensive typing that makes it way easier switch in. This affords it more opportunities.

Really I think you're severely underselling this Mon.
 
Speaking of Spikes, I once theory crafted multiple magearna sets but lost them, so I had to craft one again with no memory or calcs

Magearna @ Shuca Berry
Ability: Soul-Heart
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 HP / 64 Def / 172 SpA / 20 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fleur Cannon
- Thunderbolt
- Ice Beam
- Spikes

Max hp and 64 def are for maximum available bulk in the face of Tusk, Shuca Berry also lets you stay in and blast him with Fleur cannon, you also take a chomp quake, 172 SpA are to deal at worst 53% to max hp max spedef ability included Ting Lu with Fleur Cannon, meaning once you chip it with enough attacks from your teammates, its fucking dead, and it also OHKO´s Max HP chomp with Ice Beam. 20 Spe are for out speeding both no speed Corviknight and Skeleridge, Thunderbolt also 3HKO´s a 252/164 Careful corv, I went with tera ghost to block spins and Fleur + bolt beam to stop most rockers/removers

This set in particular needs shuca, because Leftovers are not going to save you for much, unless you're going with something like Max HP/ Max Def, which is totally viable by the way, I just decided to make something more specialized

What do you guys think

Also on a quick note, I like how none of the council members are here, so we are basically theorymonning, I think that's illegal but at this point let's just keep the party going, who wants another Soul Heart Boost?
 
It hardly needs specs or life orb to wall break off of a 135 special attack stat. Yeah some mons can switch into it, but that's not the end of the world. Clodsire also is fairly passive and can be overwhelmed by hazards (spikes), plus Enamorous can beat non poison move Clod with taunt (which are most Clod). While Skeledirge isn't guaranteed to be spdef as it's no longer under near as much pressure to run the set without Espathra around. It's got a lot more freedom to run physdef now if it wants. Regarding comparisons to Iron Valiant, yes Valiant is faster by some margin. However you're kind of overselling Enamorous being slow. Its speed is still strong and the typing lets it chase out faster mons anyways, beating Meowscarada and Dragapult, has a decent match up into Valiant, gets free switches into Great Tusk and Garchomp... And the main separating factor from Valiant to Enamorous is Enamorous has a way better defensive typing that makes it way easier switch in. This affords it more opportunities.

Really I think you're severely underselling this Mon.
It cannot switch into Dragapult.
252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Enamorus: 196-232 (67.8 - 80.2%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ Atk Tera Ghost Dragapult Tera Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Enamorus: 364-430 (125.9 - 148.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Yes, it switches into Meowscarada, but really does not want to eat the Knock Off, and it doesn't want U-Turn bringing out something faster that can whack it either.

Great Tusk is going to be forced to run Ice Spinner for various reasons.
252 Atk Great Tusk Ice Spinner vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Enamorus: 236-278 (81.6 - 96.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
0 Atk Great Tusk Ice Spinner vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Enamorus: 194-230 (67.1 - 79.5%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Garchomp, sure. it does switch in for free. That's the one thing it does have.
 
252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Enamorus: 196-232 (67.8 - 80.2%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ Atk Tera Ghost Dragapult Tera Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Enamorus: 364-430 (125.9 - 148.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Who says you're switching into shadow ball? Draco is right there.

Yes, it switches into Meowscarada, but really does not want to eat the Knock Off, and it doesn't want U-Turn bringing out something faster that can whack it either.

Meow is usually one of the fastest members of a team. What Mon is it bringing out to "whack it"? Plus, I've never cared for the "but knock off" argument.

Great Tusk is going to be forced to run Ice Spinner for various reasons.

Has to predict which puts heavy pressure on Tusk, especially since this will also limit Tusk offensively by virtue of the presence of Enamorous and mons like it.

Garchomp, sure. it does switch in for free. That's the one thing it does have

It has more than that, on top of what I listed.
 
Pokemon home will bring more offensive than defensive pokemon so I am exhited for it.

I am pretty sure that both urshifus will get banned since swords dance will make them too strong and terastylization will give them unresisted stab combos.

edit: I accidentally said "buffed" instead of banned so I fixed it.
 
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Who says you're switching into shadow ball? Draco is right there.



Meow is usually one of the fastest members of a team. What Mon is it bringing out to "whack it"? Plus, I've never cared for the "but knock off" argument.



Has to predict which puts heavy pressure on Tusk, especially since this will also limit Tusk offensively by virtue of the presence of Enamorous and mons like it.



It has more than that, on top of what I listed.
Ah, so as long as you predict properly it can do the thing. You know what else switches into Dragapult, Meowscarada, Tusk, and Garchomp with proper prediction?
Iron Valiant. Which again hammers down on it being just a slightly different version of Valiant and nothing revolutionary.
 
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