If the choice is banning every fully evolved mon with Last Respects, or banning Last Respects itself, the move is gone.
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion
- Thread starter TPP
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I'm not saying that's the wrong choice, but my impression was that that would be a divergence from normal Smogon policy?
A move of 300 BP on a Pokémon with 92 in attack and Adaptability remains extremely destructive. Dracovish only had 90 booster attack, and also has an attack boost talent.
252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tera Poison Ting-Lu: 438-516 (85.2 - 100.3%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Adaptability Basculegion-F Last Respects (300 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tera Poison Ting-Lu: 466-550 (90.6 - 107%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Basculegion-F Last Respects (300 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tera Poison Ting-Lu: 698-822 (135.7 - 159.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
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Smeargle will return soon since its dex entry is in the game already, there is not way to justify banning Last respects since Smeargle won't be broken with it.
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First of all, for the love of god mark spoilers. (EDIT: Thanks)
Secondly, and more importantly, we make tiering action based on what's currently in the tier, not what's going to be in the tier in the future. If there are only two Pokemon in the tier with the move and they are both broken because of the move, it makes no sense to not get rid of the move just because a third Pokemon with it would be coming out in the future.
Since we don't actually know when any of those mons will return then we can't have this discussion in the first place, both could return in the same time, the mon I mentioned could return first. Since we are discussing things we are not sure how will happen I'm pointing in something that is relevant for the disscussion.
IMO, Smeargle won't be broken with LR because Smeargle has low stats all around, and his general strats are gutted due to uncompetitiveness, of course if you get a sash/spore/Sticky Webs/LR cheese set and get to clean in end game then congrats
Besides, people like to play to the extremes to prove a point, see trapinch/diglet with arena trap, baton pass, and stuff like that, just ban the move, I know complex ban are a generally no no, but this is more practical at the end of the day, in my eyes at least
But honestly, let's just don't worry about it, fuck, Garganacl is still in the tier, we have another complex ban to discuss heavely in Shed Tail, people are getting out cheesed by Volcarona more than ever before and Suicune decided to return to monke, we can discuss LR later
Besides, people like to play to the extremes to prove a point, see trapinch/diglet with arena trap, baton pass, and stuff like that, just ban the move, I know complex ban are a generally no no, but this is more practical at the end of the day, in my eyes at least
But honestly, let's just don't worry about it, fuck, Garganacl is still in the tier, we have another complex ban to discuss heavely in Shed Tail, people are getting out cheesed by Volcarona more than ever before and Suicune decided to return to monke, we can discuss LR later
252+ Atk Adaptability Tera Ghost Basculin Last Respects vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 302-356 (99.3 - 117.1%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Adaptability Tera Ghost Basculin Last Respects vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo: 372-438 (73.8 - 86.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Adaptability Tera Ghost Basculin Last Respects vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 396-466 (99.2 - 116.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Adaptability Tera Ghost Basculin Last Respects vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Great Tusk: 338-398 (77.8 - 91.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
This is a Scarf set with an Adamant nature after using Tera Ghost, and it reaches 442 Speed which outspeeds any non-Scarf mon not named Regieleki in the tier. I strongly believe that this move is broken and uncompetitive no matter what.
What are people thoughts on Hisuian Zororark? I get the impression that most think it's just a gimmick but imo it has a really legitimate niche. Illusion + 3 immunities adds another layer of mindgames on top of the one tera already creates, and more importantly it has the offensive tools to beat the Pokemon it's baiting with its disguise. I usually run this set:
Zoroark-Hisui @ Life Orb
Ability: Illusion
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shadow Ball
- Grass Knot
- Tera Blast / Focus Blast
- Nasty Plot
Grass Knot obliterates a lot of physically defensive mons in the current meta, so disgusing Zoroark as physical attackers like Kingambit, Baxcalibur, Dragonite, among others can lure them in to just get destroyed by the move, here are some calcs:
Illusion has other uses as well, the most obvious one being disguising yourself as a Pokemon with a Ghost or Fighting weakness to bait those moves and get a free turn. The best teammate for this imo is Kingambit, it is hard enough already to predict if its going to tera or not while also not knowing to which type its going to change to, now on top of that you have to take into account that it may be a Zoroark in disguise.
And surprisingly it also provides hazard control. If you disguise this as Hatterene against a Glimmora lead you put your opponent in a position where they can't use their hazards and lose the 1v1 against Zoroark. This also works the other way around, where you disguise Zoroark as a hazard setter like Garchomp to lure Hatterene in and kill it w/ Shadow Ball on the switch.
Illusion has its limitations ofc. A skilled player will pay attention to the Stealth Rock damage you take or to certain abilities activating and will be able to call your bluff immedeatly. There's also the fact that realistically you'll only fool your opponent once per game and after that Zoroark basically has no ability. But even without Illusion Zoroark is quite good, with its good speed, special attack and coverage it will provide at least some value most games even if you don't get to make use of Illusion.
So yeah, I'd say Zoroark is pretty good, I know this ain't the viability ranking thread but I'd say it's at least a B+ mon. Here are some replays:
Zoroark-Hisui @ Life Orb
Ability: Illusion
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shadow Ball
- Grass Knot
- Tera Blast / Focus Blast
- Nasty Plot
Grass Knot obliterates a lot of physically defensive mons in the current meta, so disgusing Zoroark as physical attackers like Kingambit, Baxcalibur, Dragonite, among others can lure them in to just get destroyed by the move, here are some calcs:
252 SpA Life Orb Zoroark-Hisui Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Great Tusk: 546-645 (125.8 - 148.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Zoroark-Hisui Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Great Tusk: 234-276 (54 - 63.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Zoroark-Hisui Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 28 SpD Garganacl: 351-413 (86.8 - 102.2%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Zoroark-Hisui Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Garganacl: 255-302 (63.1 - 74.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Zoroark-Hisui Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Dondozo: 468-551 (92.8 - 109.3%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Zoroark-Hisui Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Dondozo: 312-369 (61.9 - 73.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Zoroark-Hisui Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Great Tusk: 234-276 (54 - 63.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Zoroark-Hisui Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 28 SpD Garganacl: 351-413 (86.8 - 102.2%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Zoroark-Hisui Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Garganacl: 255-302 (63.1 - 74.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Zoroark-Hisui Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Dondozo: 468-551 (92.8 - 109.3%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Zoroark-Hisui Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Dondozo: 312-369 (61.9 - 73.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Illusion has other uses as well, the most obvious one being disguising yourself as a Pokemon with a Ghost or Fighting weakness to bait those moves and get a free turn. The best teammate for this imo is Kingambit, it is hard enough already to predict if its going to tera or not while also not knowing to which type its going to change to, now on top of that you have to take into account that it may be a Zoroark in disguise.
And surprisingly it also provides hazard control. If you disguise this as Hatterene against a Glimmora lead you put your opponent in a position where they can't use their hazards and lose the 1v1 against Zoroark. This also works the other way around, where you disguise Zoroark as a hazard setter like Garchomp to lure Hatterene in and kill it w/ Shadow Ball on the switch.
Illusion has its limitations ofc. A skilled player will pay attention to the Stealth Rock damage you take or to certain abilities activating and will be able to call your bluff immedeatly. There's also the fact that realistically you'll only fool your opponent once per game and after that Zoroark basically has no ability. But even without Illusion Zoroark is quite good, with its good speed, special attack and coverage it will provide at least some value most games even if you don't get to make use of Illusion.
So yeah, I'd say Zoroark is pretty good, I know this ain't the viability ranking thread but I'd say it's at least a B+ mon. Here are some replays:
Here I was able to fool my opponent twice, allowing Zoroark to kill both Hatterene and Great Tusk:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1813659892
Zoroark baits Shadow Sneak from a boosted Ceruledge and beats it in return:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1813439341
Zoroark lures Dondozo in and 1HKO's it:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1813426148
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1813659892
Zoroark baits Shadow Sneak from a boosted Ceruledge and beats it in return:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1813439341
Zoroark lures Dondozo in and 1HKO's it:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1813426148
I did a calculation with Smeargle Last Respects for fun, placing a Choice Band, an Adamant nature and an Attack investment, and:
252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Ghost Smeargle Last Respects (300 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tera Poison Ting-Lu: 256-303 (49.8 - 58.9%) -- 69.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
WOW, this Pokemon can 2HKO Ting-Lu Tera with 20 in BS Attack. I'm afraid I made a mistake in the calculation.
252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Ghost Smeargle Last Respects (300 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tera Poison Ting-Lu: 256-303 (49.8 - 58.9%) -- 69.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
WOW, this Pokemon can 2HKO Ting-Lu Tera with 20 in BS Attack. I'm afraid I made a mistake in the calculation.
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Speaking of zoroark, what are the best Tera types for it. Probably won’t Tera with it all the time but in a pinch I’m wondering.
imo fighting is the best type, as it allows you to survive a Kingambit's sucker punch and kill it back with Tera Blast / Focus Blast.
1000% agree on this. Volc benefits from tera more than any other mon. It’s main draw back has always been it’s typing but having stab psychic or tera ground brings it to a whole new level. I find on teams I have to have one mon to scout and then another ready to kill it.
why not quickban walking wake and have a regular suspect test on garganacl?
There was a vote on a quickban for Walking Wake but it did not reach the 7/9 Supermajority from the council in order to quickban it
What if you do not run focus blast/Tera blast, fighting is just better defensively for it?
You should always run Tera Fighting imo. Ghost + Fighting STAB gives you almost perfect neutral coverage (ironically only resisted by hisuian zoroark lmao) while also giving you the resistance to Sucker Punch. Running Tera Blast isn't that big of a burden because even if you don't tera it's an 80bp stab move. I can't think of any other tera types that give you as much value as Fighting.
The standard is that, if a move/ability is broken on a mon, ban the user if it's just the one mon (including if that's the only mon that has it), and ban the move/ability if it's broken across "enough" users, where "enough" can vary. Arena Trap was banned when people started using Diglett and Trapinch, show that it wasn't just Dugtrio that was a problem, while Fisheous Rend never faced a ban because it wasn't a problem on Arctovish. Baton Pass was widely problematic and got nuked.
In this generation, Last Respects was unique to Houndstone, and so the mon was banned, while Cyclizar was banned instead of Shed Tail, because the move wasn't deemed a problem on Orthworm.
i'd also like to note that both of these are subject to change soon. the tide's turning against shed tail as people see the full extent of how problematic it is even on orthworm, and last respects is catching an instant qb when home drops because basculegion also gets it
Do you have any quotes on that? All ive seen is orthworm be kinda mediocre all around and often never getting to even proc a shed tail or forcing you to dance around to get it, and even with earth eater/recovery, it is very hard to give orth a chance to do it again, which means it can be a 5v6 if your switch isnt as good as you expect, if you dont get the payoff you want or if orth gets snuffed out sooner (not that hard)
This, even ""the new Espartha" a.k.a. Poltergeist prefers psyhich terrain support over shed tail even if theorically it just needs a free turn to sep up and win.
Doesn't White Stripe Basculin ALSO get it? If it's not broken with it (it may very well be with Adaptability Tera Ghost, but let's just assume otherwise for now) wouldn't that be grounds to not ban Last Respects but to instead just kick Basculegion to Ubers with Houndstone?
Next GF will release Striking Bolt who is broken in Sun, Rain and E-Terrain causing immediate action against it right when Garg was gonna be tested.
nah, last respects is broken no matter what way you slice it. even without stab, a spammable 300-power move is just silly. i also can't assume white stripe basculin will be fine and dandy with it when it's faster than both basculegion and houndstone.
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