PP stalling the opponent? I mean you can defensive play with pretty much all Pokemon and just go for Toxic + recovery item in Gen 1. Admittedly I don't play nuzlocke, so I can't talk much regarding it. Articuno can still beat the Elite 4 and despite the nerf is powerful enough. But relative to Gen 1, I think it got significantly worse.
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What pokémon got affected most by changes in the remakes of their games?
- Thread starter MoonlightRose
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Even without Toxic it's still doable. My greatest Pokémon victory is the time I beat my friend's in-game team (including Mewtwo) with just rentals in Stadium, and my only strategy was switch around as much as I could to avoid Mewtwo taking everyone down. Snorlax is a beefy boi.
Mankey deserves a mention. In Red it doesn’t get any Fighting move until Submission TM which is an awful move in game due to recoil and accuracy. While it can learn Dig it’s pretty underwhelming compared to how it performs in FRLG.
In FRLG it gets Fighting Karate Chop super early, Brick Break TM pretty early as well, Bulk Up TM later to give it boosting potential, and Cross Chop as a classic power over accuracy move. And can be taught Earthquake if nobody else on your team needs it.
Overall one of the best mons to run in FRLG, turning in a solid A tier performance. Meanwhile it’s a mediocre C tier in Red. Slightly better in Yellow due to Low Kick but I consider FRLG a remake of Red & Blue while LGPE is the Yellow remake.
In FRLG it gets Fighting Karate Chop super early, Brick Break TM pretty early as well, Bulk Up TM later to give it boosting potential, and Cross Chop as a classic power over accuracy move. And can be taught Earthquake if nobody else on your team needs it.
Overall one of the best mons to run in FRLG, turning in a solid A tier performance. Meanwhile it’s a mediocre C tier in Red. Slightly better in Yellow due to Low Kick but I consider FRLG a remake of Red & Blue while LGPE is the Yellow remake.
QuentinQuonce
formerly green_typhlosion
I found my old Pokewalker today and really want to get the batteries working again... but it reminded me that this little thing's existence made a few (often on-paper quite decent) species better in Johto because it disrupted GSC's often-poor availability. Let's dive in!
- Kangaskhan is okaaaaay in Gen I and II... learns a pretty wide selection of moves by TM and gets a fair few decently-powered moves naturally, but there's a lot of competition for being a powerful Normal-type from the likes of Tauros, Snorlax, Ursaring, and of course Furret (relax, I'm joking). In Gen II, you can't get one until Kanto and by then all of the aforementioned Pokemon are already available. In HGSS, it's absurdly easy to get one from the Pokewalker's default course, so you can have it right at the start of the game and it will be an absolute wrecking ball.
- Doduo can be obtained from the same course and it far outclasses any of the birds you'll get in Johto. I used one on my second or third playthrough years back and had a ball. Only knows Peck and Quick Attack but that's more than enough to make a joke out of Sprout Tower and slaughter most of Bugsy's gym. Unfortunately it's quite frail and will struggle to take down Scyther single-handedly, and falls off slightly in the mid-game because of this and its late (for Johto) evolution level. But still a thoroughly solid option nonetheless.
- ...wait, no-one mentioned Heracross yet? Not a Pokewalker mon, but absolutely one of the biggest "remake winners" in terms of viability thanks to how expanded its movepool got. Hard to find in HGSS, but it's worth taking the time to do so because unlike in Gen II where it learned no serviceable Fighting moves, here it gets Brick Break at level 19. Close Combat comes at level 37 which should just about be in time for the Elite Four. Also gets Aerial Ace at level 13; sadly too late for Bugsy, but useful nonetheless.
Great question. IMO, Heracross is probably one of the best examples. They had practically zero good (or even average) STAB moves before Kanto, yet reliable access to Brick Break pre-Whitney and Close Combat pre-E4 (most likely pre-Clair) goes a long way in beefing them up; natural Aerial Ace and TM Dig are neat too! Their GSC counterpart had zero good Fighting-type or Bug-type STABs till like Red, unless you got fortunate with Hidden Power.
To be frank, Charmander arguably became a bit worse in FRLG against Brock, given that he can now use Rock-type attacks on you. I literally lost Charmander to him in two or more Hardcore Nuzlockes by virtue of that fact (and not having a Mankey). Metal Claw ultimately really lacks power, and you could defeat RB Onix fairly easily by just exploiting Bide carefully with Growl and using Ember; he had no Rock-type attacks for you. On the other hand, much easier access to Flamethrower via Game Corner and level-up, coupled with a much better Special Attack, is fantastic.
As for Cyndaquil, I disagree there too; you can get Solarbeam, Sunny Day (IIRC), and Fire Blast all in the Goldenrod Mart. Fire Blast is vastly stronger than Fire Punch (even if the accuracy and low PP can be annoying outside of boss fights and, at times, inside), and reliable early access makes Cynda a lot better IMO, especially given that only Typhlosion could actually use Thunderpunch and Fire Punch. GSC Cynda is good, but a bit overrated IMO.
Abra, I agree on, more or less.
Surskit, you are correct on. Surskit also in general got a nice buff due to being finally able to exploit their not-awful Special Attack for STAB.
To be frank, Charmander arguably became a bit worse in FRLG against Brock, given that he can now use Rock-type attacks on you. I literally lost Charmander to him in two or more Hardcore Nuzlockes by virtue of that fact (and not having a Mankey). Metal Claw ultimately really lacks power, and you could defeat RB Onix fairly easily by just exploiting Bide carefully with Growl and using Ember; he had no Rock-type attacks for you. On the other hand, much easier access to Flamethrower via Game Corner and level-up, coupled with a much better Special Attack, is fantastic.
As for Cyndaquil, I disagree there too; you can get Solarbeam, Sunny Day (IIRC), and Fire Blast all in the Goldenrod Mart. Fire Blast is vastly stronger than Fire Punch (even if the accuracy and low PP can be annoying outside of boss fights and, at times, inside), and reliable early access makes Cynda a lot better IMO, especially given that only Typhlosion could actually use Thunderpunch and Fire Punch. GSC Cynda is good, but a bit overrated IMO.
Abra, I agree on, more or less.
Totally agree with all your points except you get Sunny Day in the Radio Tower after the Team Rocket raid.
Rapidash is one of my favorite Pokémon, and I'm happy that it is one of the Pokémon that gets better with every remake.
Back in Pokémon RBY, Rapidash was just mediocre despite its good stats (ingame-wise) and really cool design. Fire was a rather bad type in Gen 1, and its shallow movepool consists solely of Fire- and Normal-type moves, with its Fire STAB running off its lower offensive stat (80 Special). It also needs to use up the Fire Blast TM, since the only Fire moves it learns via level-up are Ember and Fire Spin. The thing that makes it much worse than the other Fire-types though is its late availability in RB, being available at Cinnabar Island. This means that it loses the opportunity to punish Erika and the midgame route trainers, unlike the likes of Charizard, Arcanine, and Ninetales.
Rapidash gets some improvements in FRLG, namely learning Fire Blast via level up and getting new coverage moves such as Megahorn, Iron Tail, and Double Kick. Fire is also a better type this Gen, now with Steel-types and more Ice-types to prey on in Sevii Islands. However, it's available even later than RB, at One Island, and its Fire STAB still runs off its 80 Special Attack.
Rapidash now gets A LOT of improvements in LGPE, making it actually a good ingame Pokémon imo. Its Fire STAB now runs off its higher 100 Attack, while also getting the new best Fire-type move in Flare Blitz. The option to give it a lot of HP candies can even remedy the move's recoil problem. It also gets new coverage moves such as Drill Run and Poison Jab. Ponyta learns Fire Blast at level 38, allowing it to to be powerful right off the bat. It's also available much earlier than in RB and FRLG, now found in the Cycling Road, which means that the player needs to skip Erika only for a bit if it wants Rapidash to punish her Grass-types. Not to mention the usefulness it has outside of battle: you can ride it in the overworld which allows you to run much, much faster.
(c) Newsweek
Back in Pokémon RBY, Rapidash was just mediocre despite its good stats (ingame-wise) and really cool design. Fire was a rather bad type in Gen 1, and its shallow movepool consists solely of Fire- and Normal-type moves, with its Fire STAB running off its lower offensive stat (80 Special). It also needs to use up the Fire Blast TM, since the only Fire moves it learns via level-up are Ember and Fire Spin. The thing that makes it much worse than the other Fire-types though is its late availability in RB, being available at Cinnabar Island. This means that it loses the opportunity to punish Erika and the midgame route trainers, unlike the likes of Charizard, Arcanine, and Ninetales.
Rapidash gets some improvements in FRLG, namely learning Fire Blast via level up and getting new coverage moves such as Megahorn, Iron Tail, and Double Kick. Fire is also a better type this Gen, now with Steel-types and more Ice-types to prey on in Sevii Islands. However, it's available even later than RB, at One Island, and its Fire STAB still runs off its 80 Special Attack.
Rapidash now gets A LOT of improvements in LGPE, making it actually a good ingame Pokémon imo. Its Fire STAB now runs off its higher 100 Attack, while also getting the new best Fire-type move in Flare Blitz. The option to give it a lot of HP candies can even remedy the move's recoil problem. It also gets new coverage moves such as Drill Run and Poison Jab. Ponyta learns Fire Blast at level 38, allowing it to to be powerful right off the bat. It's also available much earlier than in RB and FRLG, now found in the Cycling Road, which means that the player needs to skip Erika only for a bit if it wants Rapidash to punish her Grass-types. Not to mention the usefulness it has outside of battle: you can ride it in the overworld which allows you to run much, much faster.
(c) Newsweek
QuentinQuonce
formerly green_typhlosion
Yeah, Charmander isn't an instant-win against Brock in FRLG, but that's because Brock became better, not because Charmander got worse. Generally speaking, having a coverage option against a tricky type is a good thing all round. Metal Claw generally manages a 2HKO against wild Geodude, for instance. It's a useful move for the early-game that lets Charmander/Charmeleon actually do something against Rock-types.
It's been a while since I played FRLG (hopefully again soon...) but from memory Bulbasaur and Squirtle generally can't hope to OHKO Onix with Vine Whip or Bubble unless you've managed to evolve them - it's still a 2HKO in most instances, and they take a lot of damage from Rock Tomb too. Charmander is a bit better than it was, but ultimately still the harder option.
Typhlosion is the only member of the line that can use Solarbeam though, so it's the same case. And Solarbeam takes time and work to set up, as does Sunny Day.
Ultimately I'd rather have more coverage as opposed to ratcheting up stronger and stronger STAB (both is of course good, but Ember and Flame Wheel do the job well enough in GSC). Fire Blast is obviously great, but it's so impractical and usually overkill against something you're killing with a Fire attack anyway.
Idk. This is me thinking largely in terms of soloing the game with Typhlosion though. Obviously when it's levelling up more slowly you probably do want more power.
Do you think, sometimes, late at night when the rest of Team Rocket is dreaming of their next plot to steal Pikachu, that Meowth looks up at the stars and cries in solidarity for all Meowths and Persians losing their incredible Slashes?
(This is a fancy way of saying the critical hit change after Gen 1 butchered Persian's viability.)
(This is a fancy way of saying the critical hit change after Gen 1 butchered Persian's viability.)
I think Meowth is fine, it always had a slot in my team (before I catch Mewtwo, which is post-game) since Pickup is super useful.
Persian however,
Played FRLG a lot, Squirtle and Bulbasaur do cleanly OHKO Onix with Vine Whip and Water Gun (Bubble only had 20 Power this Gen). Though I agree with the rest of your statement, Onix's 70 Speed is actually high by that point of the game and Onix's Rock Tombs hit surprisingly hard for something that has 45 Attack.
Fair points, but Squirtle should have Water Gun by that point (L13), which would reliably OHKO Geodude and Onix. Bulbasaur should be capable of it too with Vine Whip; it depends on your levels relative to Brock's, and both vastly outperform Charmander against Brock.
My word, you're right about Typhlosion and Solarbeam. I stand corrected. That said, Flame Wheel and Ember actually suck in GSC; Ember is already struggling to KO route mons (let alone bosses) by badge 3 and the janked level curve ensures you won't have Flame Wheel until well into the middle of the game, which is highly inconvenient. By the time you're fighting fully evolved Pokemon regularly, the power difference matters. You may not really feel it if you wanna solo the game with the Cyndaquil line, but even if you have like 4-5 Pokemon, you will feel the annoyance.
Castersvarog
formerly Maronmario
Aerodactyl has got to be mentioned, with it only having Fly, sky attack and a 35 BP Wing attack as it’s only STAB moves back in Gen 1 and not a single rock type move
In FRLG it gains access to a buffed Wing attack, rock slide, and a recoiless Double-Edge.
And need I mention LGPE where it gains access to its Mega.
Shame about that availability though.
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worst thing about Aerodactyl in FRLG is you get it at lv5 instead of lv30. Why even bother at this point?
Aerodactyl has got to be mentioned, with it only having Fly, sky attack and a 35 BP Wing attack as it’s only STAB moves back in Gen 1 and not a single rock type move
Meanwhile in FRLG it gains access to a buffed Wing attack, rock slide, and a recoiless Double-Edge.
And need I mention LGPE where it gains access to its Mega.
Shame about that availability though.
While not affected in the same sense, I think HM Slaves are notable with the removal of HMs in Gen 7.
Bidoof and Bibarel were kept in the back of so many teams in DPP just to smash those rocks and cut some trees, but BDSP let you just have a wild Bibarel do it for you.
Pretty much the same with Starly and Staravia. I did use non-HM Slave Staraptors on many of my teams, but even then I often just added it cuz of DPP's limited Fly distribution.
There's also the common RBY/FRLG HM Slaves if we're including LGPE as a remake.
At least Pelipper and Linoone got lucky, with ORAS coming at right before that Gen 7 demolish of HMs and therefore HM Slaves.
Bidoof and Bibarel were kept in the back of so many teams in DPP just to smash those rocks and cut some trees, but BDSP let you just have a wild Bibarel do it for you.
Pretty much the same with Starly and Staravia. I did use non-HM Slave Staraptors on many of my teams, but even then I often just added it cuz of DPP's limited Fly distribution.
There's also the common RBY/FRLG HM Slaves if we're including LGPE as a remake.
At least Pelipper and Linoone got lucky, with ORAS coming at right before that Gen 7 demolish of HMs and therefore HM Slaves.
Zigzagoon is an interesting example of shifting because of the Pickup mechanics. In RS, Zig is fine early-game to add a team member, gets Str at lvl 20, and can sit at the back of your party smashing rocks and gathering Rare Candys until you need to swap it for a Water slave. E and on, the Pickup pool is based on level, so you're going to get worse items, and will probably want to keep it as an active member until 31 or even 41 to get a much better pool before you relegate it to the back of your party. Then in ORAS, the pool at 21 is again good enough that you can bench it basically immediately after evolution. It's not enough of a change to affect whether you add it to your party, but it definitely affects how you use it.
In Emerald Linoone can sweep the League.
At what level? I mean I beat all of Emerald's league with a Zigzagoon once but it was level 96 lol
Yeah there are very, very few Pokemon that can't sweep the league at sufficient overlevel and they're generally Magikarp-esque.
Presumably they mean at Level 53 when it learns Belly Drum, which isn't that outlandish, but it's definitely beyond the levels of the average player's team heading into the Elite Four in RSE
Ignoring ones like Vikavolt or the Sun/Moon Scald TM that were essentially broken at launch and were “fixed” in the remake to be where they should be, or Megas that singlehandedly rescued their Pokemon from the dumpster:
- Hypno’s 115 Special all went into bulk and got yanked down to 73 Special Attack afterwards.
- Pelipper went from “that doofy looking pelican that shows up every 2 seconds in Hoenn” to an absolute menace once it got Drizzle.
- Anything that really liked having Return in DPPt takes a hit from not having it in Gen 8.
- Hypno’s 115 Special all went into bulk and got yanked down to 73 Special Attack afterwards.
- Pelipper went from “that doofy looking pelican that shows up every 2 seconds in Hoenn” to an absolute menace once it got Drizzle.
- Anything that really liked having Return in DPPt takes a hit from not having it in Gen 8.
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Speaking of Return and DPPt, one notable early-game change from DP to Plat is that you no longer get TM10 Hidden Power from the Trainers' School and instead get TM27 Return from Rowan as you leave his lab. Some Pokemon appreciate this change, but one Pokemon in particular really doesn't: Abra.
The Abra line's still exceptionally powerful in all Sinnoh games, but in DP it's crazy-strong from start to finish (provided you get anything better than, like, 30 BP Hidden Power Poison), whereas in Plat it has the usual babying stage or delayed capture before it can become a nuke. The overall performance in important battles doesn't change much, but the feel of using DP Abra is very different from Plat Abra
Was tempted to make an "every Dark-type ever after Gen IV" post, but that felt kind of lazy so let's go with a specific example for Hoenn.
RSE Absol is... usable. Its most notable trait is a very high Attack stat, but it's a Dark-type before the Physical/Special split so we have an obvious problem here. Plus it's frail, not super fast, and the amazing movepool granted by its learnable TMs is wasted by a low Special Attack. You can find the Shadow Ball TM not too far from where you catch Absol to have a decent physical move to spam, but lack of STAB is still a pain.
Oh boy was ORAS kind to Absol. Not only do we have a post-Physical/Special split game for physical Dark STAB and usable coverage like Psycho Cut, but Mega Absol was introduced in X and Y and fixes basically every problem with Absol's stat line to turn it into a fast mixed attacker. You can grab Absolite in the Safari Zone right after catching it and proceed stomp Hoenn.At least if you aren't already rolling the game with your free Lati and Mega starter.
RSE Absol is... usable. Its most notable trait is a very high Attack stat, but it's a Dark-type before the Physical/Special split so we have an obvious problem here. Plus it's frail, not super fast, and the amazing movepool granted by its learnable TMs is wasted by a low Special Attack. You can find the Shadow Ball TM not too far from where you catch Absol to have a decent physical move to spam, but lack of STAB is still a pain.
Oh boy was ORAS kind to Absol. Not only do we have a post-Physical/Special split game for physical Dark STAB and usable coverage like Psycho Cut, but Mega Absol was introduced in X and Y and fixes basically every problem with Absol's stat line to turn it into a fast mixed attacker. You can grab Absolite in the Safari Zone right after catching it and proceed stomp Hoenn.
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Gyarados. To the point I usually ban it from my ingame teams since I consider it to be the best ingame Pokémon there is.
Not only did it gain one of the best abilities in the game in the form of Intimidate (which is the one you usually find it with, it's regular ability), but it benefited the most from the physical/special split change. Also, when everybody else is still learning moves in the damage ranges of the 50s/60s, the thing has learnt Dragon Dance and Waterfall, a combination that carries the entirety of any Pokémon game with the addition of Ice Fang.
The funny thing is it's become even stronger in recent generations. In Generation VIII they changed the level of Dragon Dance from 44/45 to 36, and gave it fucking Waterfall at level 21. So, to make things simple, at level 36 you have a Water Flying Pokémon, which has been historically difficult af to hit with meaningful damage, with Intimidate, bulky af, with good speed and attack, Dragon Dance, one of the best water moves in the game with 100 acc and a chance to flinch, Ice Fang and Crunch just for coverage and to not waste Waterfall PPs when you OHKO anyways.
As I said, i usually ban it from my ingame teams. It's too much.
Not only did it gain one of the best abilities in the game in the form of Intimidate (which is the one you usually find it with, it's regular ability), but it benefited the most from the physical/special split change. Also, when everybody else is still learning moves in the damage ranges of the 50s/60s, the thing has learnt Dragon Dance and Waterfall, a combination that carries the entirety of any Pokémon game with the addition of Ice Fang.
The funny thing is it's become even stronger in recent generations. In Generation VIII they changed the level of Dragon Dance from 44/45 to 36, and gave it fucking Waterfall at level 21. So, to make things simple, at level 36 you have a Water Flying Pokémon, which has been historically difficult af to hit with meaningful damage, with Intimidate, bulky af, with good speed and attack, Dragon Dance, one of the best water moves in the game with 100 acc and a chance to flinch, Ice Fang and Crunch just for coverage and to not waste Waterfall PPs when you OHKO anyways.
As I said, i usually ban it from my ingame teams. It's too much.
Cause its cool lol?
Gyarados is an interesting case to talk about. It has 100 Special in Gen I with access to its oddly wide Special movepool (gets Fire Blast!). Misty hands you Bubble Beam for decent STAB right away, too. STAB + BoltBeam + Fire Blast sounds like a fun time. It then spends the next couple generations being a nice tank but nothing amazing. Gains access to Earthquake and Dragon Dance but not at reasonable levels, Intimidate is great but other Pokémon arguably do it better for in-game, and no STABs to work with. Then we get Gen IV and bam. Usable physical STAB. HGSS in particular comes along with the guaranteed Red Gyarados encounter that is only a few levels away from both Ice Fang and Aqua Tail, and you don't need to deal with the Magikarp period or fishing to get it.