Ting-Lu dropped a lot but what I didn’t expect to drop as hard was Chomp, he’s #27. We’d be in hard times if the Chomp drops to UU.
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion
- Thread starter TPP
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I disagree, Samurott has a ton of qualities that differentiate it from other Spikers. Ceaseless Edge goes through Magic Bounce Hatterene, it threatens Great Tusk with special water STAB, and it has utility with Knock Off allowing it to remove boots. All of this makes it impossible to avoid Spikes going up, and with Gholdengo you can p much guarantee that the Spikes won't be removed. Because of this it will probably have a big resurgence when Samurott is released.
I would personally run this set:
Samurott-Hisui @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Sharpness
Tera Type: Water / Dark / Grass / Fighting
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Surf / Hydro Pump
- Ceaseless Edge
- Knock Off
- Grass Knot / Sacred Sword / Sucker Punch
Surf for reliable special Water damage for Tusk, you can also run Hydro Miss if you want to guarantee the 1hko. Ceaseless Edge and Knock Off for the reasons stated above. Grass Knot lets you do a big chunk to Dondozo, Sacred Sword let's you 1hko Kingambit and Sucker Punch for priority.
These are just my thoughts:
Chomp simply gets outclassed on everything he tries to do, there are better hazards setters, better grounds, better dragons, better mixed attackers. It can fit several roles sure, but the cost-benefit for running it hardly justifies using him over the alternatives on most of the cases.
Rotom lacks of good recovery so he is struggling against the strong attackers that there are on the meta, especially since it relies on protect a lot, which can be exploited by set up sweepers.
Ting-Lu faces competition with Glimmora and Meow, even I think that Ting-Lu is the best hazards setter of those three, the other two are being used on more teams.
i never thought i'd see the day when garchomp of all mons fell victim to this. then again, this is a meta where delibird is a team-destroying ubers threat, donphan is king of ou, tyranitar may very well have dropped for good, no one is talking about toxapex at all, zoroark is a major ou presence, and suicune is the premier mon on sun offense. the world has turned upside down and nothing makes sense anymore. nothing is true, everything is permitted
Rise up, our glorious Gardevoir overlords.
Imagine the powercreep on gen11, Miraidon gets called Midraidon for the RU playerbase for "only" having two effects on its ability and has "medriocre" stats.
Imagine only having 135 base Speed, half the UU metagame outruns you uninvested. This is why Greater Tusk and Iron Mugulis clear.
For real, I hope later generations scale things back a bit. Maybe do that Gen 7 thing where they went back and gave some older mons tiny buffs. Like, one of the big reasons Chomp was so oppressive in DPP was because back then 102 Speed let you outrun anything that you couldn't OHKO. In this gen though, 102 really isn't that impressive for how much relative bulk it has. Bump it up to 112 and it has a fighting chance in OU again.
I don't see how Garchomp is outclassed at all. The strongest ground types in the tier are Great Tusk, Ting-Lu and Clodsire; Garchomp has enough traits to distinguish itself from them. For that matter, it isn't like Garchomp and Great Tusk are all that similar either; they check different things and play very differently. Between the two ground types, Garchomp just isn't as splashable.
Its traits as a mixed attacker are unique to it in that it's a lure to dent stuff that would normally switch into Garchomp (and remove its hazards). However, because the set is so common now, Corviknight, Great Tusk, etc. know not to stay in on a potential Draco Meteor/Fire Blast especially if they see Life Orb recoil. So its effectiveness has decreased because its a victim of its own success, not because its outclassed.
Garchomp has taken a hit probably because the meta has adapted to it. So it has to adapt in order to make a comeback.
As for Rotom-Wash, it's defensive qualities are quite good and its annoying to play against. But it can get overwhelmed by the stuff its supposed to beat, so that's probably why people are slotting it in less
Its traits as a mixed attacker are unique to it in that it's a lure to dent stuff that would normally switch into Garchomp (and remove its hazards). However, because the set is so common now, Corviknight, Great Tusk, etc. know not to stay in on a potential Draco Meteor/Fire Blast especially if they see Life Orb recoil. So its effectiveness has decreased because its a victim of its own success, not because its outclassed.
Garchomp has taken a hit probably because the meta has adapted to it. So it has to adapt in order to make a comeback.
As for Rotom-Wash, it's defensive qualities are quite good and its annoying to play against. But it can get overwhelmed by the stuff its supposed to beat, so that's probably why people are slotting it in less
I feel like the hype for kleavor and samurott H is a bit much competitively speaking. While stone axe and ceaseless edge are both cool moves and can help set hazards in front of magic bouncers, stone axe is a bit weak and both mons just haven’t got good enough stats.
Stone axe w/ sharpness only hits 97.5 bp, which while not necessary bad, it is not strong by any means and is weaker than sheer force rock slide and x scissor w/sharpness, meaning you aren’t going to be spamming it as often due to the less overall damage, even if you ignore it’s 90% accuracy. You could argue that kleavor could be used as a defogger w/ stone axe for role compression but it’s not tanky and dies to any strong hit, while also being relatively slow for gen 9. It also can’t defog against gholdengo. If this thing gets used, it’s getting used as a choice band breaker but it can’t even do that well due to its lack of good coverage and poor stab types. The role compression offered by stone axe just isn’t significant enough to make it viable.
Samurott Hisui is more interesting. Ceaseless edge is again 97.5 bp w/ sharpness but spamming it for multiple layers of spikes is better. Having access another good stab option (aqua cutter) also helps it break more effectively. Any water resist that switches in allows the samurott user to get a spike and dip. While it is actively better than kleavor due to its better offensive typing and ceaseless edge just being a better move imo, it still suffers from a lack of speed and just ok stats across the board, but I feel like it’s coverage can make up for that with moves like megahorn and drill run. And, to be fair to it, I can see a band set on rain w/ an iron treads/a great tusk for a hazard stack core to help Floatzel annihilate teams even more effectively.
Overall, I think any hype for kleavor in higher tiers is overhype as it doesn’t have anything going for it besides maybe role compression and a solid attack stat that can’t make up for its other shortcomings. Maybe samurott H could work as a band breaker on rain, but I can also see it just flopping in battle.
Stone axe w/ sharpness only hits 97.5 bp, which while not necessary bad, it is not strong by any means and is weaker than sheer force rock slide and x scissor w/sharpness, meaning you aren’t going to be spamming it as often due to the less overall damage, even if you ignore it’s 90% accuracy. You could argue that kleavor could be used as a defogger w/ stone axe for role compression but it’s not tanky and dies to any strong hit, while also being relatively slow for gen 9. It also can’t defog against gholdengo. If this thing gets used, it’s getting used as a choice band breaker but it can’t even do that well due to its lack of good coverage and poor stab types. The role compression offered by stone axe just isn’t significant enough to make it viable.
Samurott Hisui is more interesting. Ceaseless edge is again 97.5 bp w/ sharpness but spamming it for multiple layers of spikes is better. Having access another good stab option (aqua cutter) also helps it break more effectively. Any water resist that switches in allows the samurott user to get a spike and dip. While it is actively better than kleavor due to its better offensive typing and ceaseless edge just being a better move imo, it still suffers from a lack of speed and just ok stats across the board, but I feel like it’s coverage can make up for that with moves like megahorn and drill run. And, to be fair to it, I can see a band set on rain w/ an iron treads/a great tusk for a hazard stack core to help Floatzel annihilate teams even more effectively.
Overall, I think any hype for kleavor in higher tiers is overhype as it doesn’t have anything going for it besides maybe role compression and a solid attack stat that can’t make up for its other shortcomings. Maybe samurott H could work as a band breaker on rain, but I can also see it just flopping in battle.
it should be noted that they both have pretty solid winrates in random battles, the only place you can actually use them right now. i'm not sure how much this will translate to ou viability, since randbats is radically different and in no way representative of ou, but i think it's worth mentioning
Whether the Pokemon themselves are good is up for debate, but Stone Axe and Ceaseless Edge will be contenders for some of the best moves in the game. Hazards are broken, but a weakness they often have is that setting them up isn't immediately beneficial & can occasionally be a massive momentum sink or put you in a precarious position (i.e. Great Tusks going for SR as Rotom-W switches in will put the Tusk user in a bit of a worse spot than if it immediately goes for Knock). However, with Stone Axe and Ceaseless Edge, you don't even need to think about using them, since they are chunking switch-ins for decent damage AND setting up hazards to weaken them later, putting Kleavor & Samurott-H in really good spots when facing mons they can force out with these moves. Considering that these moves have similar stats to EQ (one of the best moves in the game) after a Sharpness Boost, I think they are still going to be really good STAB options, though I agree that Ceaseless Edge will be the more dangerous of the two, espicially considering that Spikes pressures the meta's top dogs better than SR.
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97.5 isn't strong by any means? No offense but are you serious? I guess ice beam and flame thrower are not strong either. Also yes, while weaker than sheer force rock slide, it being weaker than sharpness x scissor is moot because rock is waaau more spammable an attacking type.
Kleavor will be unique because it has high power and a very potent stab move combo. Stone Axe and U-turn alone off a 135 attack stat is great at forcing progress as you either lay hazards or U-turn on forced switches and bring in appropriate teammates. It is slowish but can fulfill the role of a wallbreaker that also compresses rocks well. I also imagine it could be a solid lead for some HO teams that gets up rocks and starts off with damage in one go consistently. Which isn't bad honestly.
Similar to Kleavor, HRott being able to guarantee hazards is a big deal for generating pressure. A strong typing and the fact pretty much no defogger nor spinner would ever dare come near it is nice. It could even feasibly fit taunt and bully Corv. Both it and Kleavor have a unique role nothing else can replicate, and honestly their stats are not really bad. HRott doesn't have amazing stats, slightly average, but so does Clefable. If you've got an amazing main quality and good enough sub qualities, you can overcome average stats. Is it enough for both Kleavor and HRott? Well we have to wait and see if they really shake up the game. But at worst, they both will have viability thanks to their good traits.
252 Atk Life Orb Sharpness Kleavor Stone Axe vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 207-243 (60.7 - 71.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Kleavor Rock Slide vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 208-247 (60.9 - 72.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Sharpness Kleavor Stone Axe vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 227-269 (66.5 - 78.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Kleavor Rock Slide vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 230-270 (67.4 - 79.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
It's not even that much weaker. Are there even any KOs it misses that Rock Slide would achieve?
I don't think the impact of removing opportunity cost and counterplay from hazards can be overstated. It's not like Ceaseless Edge and Stone Axe are moves that have immunities, nor can defensive hazard removers guarantee removal without being forced to recover every other turn as well, nor can Magic Bounce do anything about it. You simply get up hazards and do a 97.5 BP attack on the same turn, regardless of what the opponent does in response. Knock Off is a definitive part of this game with a two-for-one move that is straight up worse than these moves. Samurott-H and Kleavor could have Glalie stats and they'd still be viable with those moves.
Fabriisse
formerly noobiste
razor shell get boosted by sharpness i think
Washtom dropped due to the rise of Baxcalibur and it’s ability that makes it a physical attacker immune to burn. With no recovery, it’s very exploitable and it’s traits are less reliable. Hazard spam and its setters and gholdengo also took quite a dip due to hatterene now being on 1 in every 5 teams.
Fabriisse
formerly noobiste
I would say ursaluna and alomomola
Ursaluna @ Flame Orb
Ability: Guts
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 104 HP / 252 Atk / 152 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Facade
- Headlong Rush
- Trailblaze
- Fire Punch
ursaluna has tremendous bulk and probably the pokemon in ou who will be the strongest in terms of attack. So i think it's good to pair swith a wish passer as it is very bulky and his main flaw is that he gets chipped every turn
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Alomomola is only usable on stall. They also don’t have synergy.
Fabriisse
formerly noobiste
i don't know how you can't see why i put them together
you could use Ursaluna on stall teams with rest/sleeptalk or just rest and have a heal bell member, or use mola to pass fat wishes on this thing
So I'm just gonna post my opinion on random stuff I have seen in this forum
if you think that Chainchomp is the best set, not only you are reducing the valor of the set, you actually have no idea of why the set is good in the first place, of course nobody is going to switch into you if you keep spamming the same set everywhere, gargchomp has only 80 special attack and you guys want to use it as a mix attacker? Really?On cores i wanna try: this is a huge spoiler, but I'm doing Chesnaught + Magearna, how these 2 work together? I'm not gonna tell you all yet, but rest assured, I'm cooking
is kinda passive right now, drop either rocks or spikes and put ruination instead, is way more flexible but still kinda passive, but usableon the hazard mons: they are gonna cause chaos on month 1, but when the meta become more defensive from all the bans, we can search for a solution
thing is, there's also other targets to burn, and to be honest with you, drop protect, yeah, get a new move that can exploit people who think you are exploitable, thunder wave + WoW is fucking amazing, its a bit harder to pull off but just try it, you won't regret it
Goodbye & Thanks
Thrown in a fire?
I'm not exactly sure what the user that you responded to was envisioning with that core, and I'm also not going to act like I'm as well-versed with the current SV metagame, but I think that Alomomola could fit on more than stall and would synergize with Ursaluna through Wish passing. At least in SM (which is the tier that I primarily played), Mola could fit on balance or even some bulky offense teams where more offensive mons with solid bulk but lacked recovery, like Heatran or Mega-Mawile, would appreciate the added longevity from Mola's Wishes. Ursaluna seems like it would fall into a similar category where it has great natural bulk but it lacks recovery, and even worse, it will constantly be chipping itself down with Flame Orb. I'm not convinced that Ursaluna is going to be "banworthy" or anything, since I don't feel like anyone can predict that with certainty at this point, and its low speed seems like something that will always hamstring it (similar to how being slow was one of the main things that allowed Melmetal to ultimately remain in SS OU), but pairing Ursaluna with a Wish passer like Mola or Scream Tail seems like a valid idea, especially since they both do have some defensive synergy with Ursaluna: Ursaluna is immune to Electric attacks for Mola and Mola resists Water and Ice attacks for Ursaluna, where as Scream Tail greatly resists Fighting for Ursaluna and Ursaluna resists Poison and is immune to Ghost for Scream Tail. On paper, I may even like Scream Tail being paired as a Wish-passer with Ursaluna a little more than Mola, but again, "on paper" never really means much.
Unfortunately, this is not (currently) feasible.
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