Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion

Status
Not open for further replies.
I figured I'd make a bit of a post about a mon that's been getting a bit more of a spotlight as of lately, and for good reason: Brute Bonnet.

1680495839413.png


So to the surprise of many, Brute Bonnet isn't just viable in OU: with sun support, it's actually quite great! This is a bit of a far cry from how it was viewed the first couple months after SV released; back then, Brute Bonnet was an absolute joke as far as Paradox mons go and didn't really have a discernible niche. Nowadays, I'll go so far as to make a very, very bold claim: Brute Bonnet is arguably the second-hardest mon to switch in against in the metagame, behind Baxcalibur. Seriously; this thing is fucking infuriating to switch in against since it has such good STABs, it has strong coverage in CC or a Fire-type Tera Blast, it has strong setup in Growth, and the ever-dangerous Spore can put a would-be switchin out of commission and force a switch that Brute Bonnet can capitalize on hard.

What Changed for Brute Bonnet Lately?

Well, the biggest change that benefitted Brute Bonnet was the obvious introduction of Walking Wake into the metagame, and now that it's here to stay sun teams are a very legitimate part of the metagame that every competent player must account for when teambuilding. Walking Wake fulfills such an important role on sun teams that gives the remaining four slots a lot more flexibility. You'll often see some variant of Great Tusk on most sun squads, and Eject Button Hatterene is also pretty common, but you can fit a lot of cool stuff into those remaining two teamslots even after these two are slapped onto a team. You'll see some Sandy Shocks, some Roaring Moon, some SD Ceruledge, the occasional Scovillain, you might even see stuff like Breloom or Meowscarada every so often, and so on, but I think Brute Bonnet's role on these teams can't exactly be replicated by many things except Breloom (and this mushroom has a VERY clear niche over Loom).

Otherwise, though, nothing's too out of the ordinary in this metagame. Kingambit being everywhere isn't great for Brute Bonnet, and Gholdengo and Garganacl are on a bit of a decline, but Brute Bonnet doesn't necessarily lose to Kingambit off the rip even with a favorable Tera pick, and Gholdengo and Garganacl, despite their status immunities, have absolutely no business trying to beat this absolute beast of a mon one-on-one.

What Does Brute Bonnet Do?

Surprisingly... a lot! STAB Sucker Punch is extremely common in this metagame thanks to Meowscarada and especially Kingambit, and Brute Bonnet is yet another hard-hitting Sucker Punch user, but that's about where the similarities end. Vert's Brute Bonnet Sun team showcases a pretty clear example of a team that it fits nicely on, and I'd recommend that folks at least give that team a try, but it's actually quite a bit more customizable than just what you're seeing there:

Brute Bonnet @ Loaded Dice
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Fire / Dark / Fighting
EVs: 152 HP / 252 Atk / 104 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Bullet Seed
- Tera Blast / Crunch / Close Combat
- Crunch / Sucker Punch
- Spore / Growth

Loaded Dice+Bullet Seed hurts, especially with Protosynthesis active. Grass isn't a great offensive typing, but it hits Garganacl, Dondozo, Great Tusk, and has decent enough neutral coverage. It also shithouses those Sash PsySpam teams since multi-hits are the bane of those squads' existences. Tera Blast makes Brute Bonnet a bit of a greedy Tera user, but the newfound defensive utility it provides (it forces Kingambit and Tusk to really think about what they're trying to click) and the astronomical power of a Sun-boosted STAB Tera Blast ensures that Steel-types like Corviknight and Kingambit don't want anything to do with it in the first place. Crunch is nice and consistent, and CC offers really good coverage at the cost of nailing Corv harder. Sucker Punch drastically improves Brute Bonnet's matchup against offensive teams that aren't PsySpam since it's such a strong priority move. Spore and Growth are both very threatening moves for radically different reasons: Spore ensures that Brute Bonnet has absolutely zero safe switchins (Grass-types and status-immune mons get annihilated if it predicts the switch and clicks the right button, and a post-Tera Skeledirge doesn't appreciate being put to sleep), while Growth can let Brute Bonnet reach upwards of 1000 Attack while Sun's active, which ensures that those Bullet Seeds and Sucker Punches hurt a lot.

Brute Bonnet is not all that slow, all things considered; now, base 55 Speed isn't even remotely fast, but it means it doesn't need all that much Speed investment to get the jump on Corviknight, and only needs one point more than this to get the jump on the standard 144 Speed Kingambit set. And, more uniquely, Brute Bonnet is really bulky for a wallbreaker of this caliber, and this distinguishes it heavily from Breloom despite them being Spore users known for running a strong Bullet Seed, having good priority, and often running Tera Fire+Tera Blast for coverage. 111/99/99 is unilaterally better bulk than Skeledirge (even though it doesn't invest into it like Dirge does), so Brute Bonnet can eat a neutral hit surprisingly easily and OHKO something in return or land a Spore and get a kill thereafter. Breloom can't eat hits to save its life, but Brute Bonnet can trade against almost everything.

TL;DR: Give Brute Bonnet a try! This thing's pretty highly-ranked on the OU VR right now for such a specific mon, but there's a damn good reason for it. I think that it's still a little underrated despite it and Sandy Shocks being acknowledged as legitimate parts of the OU metagame. The more I think about it, the more I feel like Brute Bonnet is quickly bringing the same level of consistency to sun teams that Hatterene does (in other words, it's a borderline staple!).
 
Staraptor @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Reckless
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Quick Attack
- Brave Bird
- Close Combat
- U-turn

love the raptor in this metagame. i personally favor final gambit > quick attack, as it can let you secure some really sweet trades into stuff like garganacl and corviknight. i really like tera flying and adamant too; adamant, particularly, really does make a difference. it kinda sucks to trade off the offensive volc mu but with your tera fire idea it def is doable.
 
Tusk at least has a great design and isn't ugly as hell like Lando.
Now to not just be an one liner, how do you feel about Gholdengo's usage falling that much? Yes, it is still used a lot but it looks like the meta is just too prepared for him. Despite its great typing, I believe that only Scream Tail and Corviknight can't touch it, the rest of the tier have at least a move to annoy Gholdengo. It has recover to beat 100% some mons, but that is where its problem starts IMO. It needs to run different sets to beat different things, but unlike Volc who runs a specific set to beat a couple of specific checks, Gholdengo loses to a bunch of different mons depending on the sets and tera. Gholdengo is a very good mon, but it kinda suffers a bit from a consistency point of view since it relies a lot on the match up of the set it is running vs the rival's team simply because it can't do everything it wants at the same time.
gholdengo has never actually fallen off and honestly feels even better now to me

the only difference is people learned more about other options spreading usage, but i feel like if you do not run a gholdengo on your team, you need a VERY VERY VERY good reason not to
 
..
gholdengo has never actually fallen off and honestly feels even better now to me

the only difference is people learned more about other options spreading usage, but i feel like if you do not run a gholdengo on your team, you need a VERY VERY VERY good reason not to

I am the guy who wants Gholdengo banned and I have the reason to not run it: You don't have Spikes. If you don't have Spikes, you don't need Gholdengo and can use another Ghost or Steel.

The opposite is also true: If you have a Rocks + Spikes Chomp, Glimmora or Ting Lu, you absolutely need a Gholdengo in your team, otherwise you are playing 5vs6 (and without hazards) vs Corviknight.
 
Anyway, I have been working on something as of late, and I would like some opinion, it's called
FUCKING
STARAPTOR
WOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

:sv/Staraptor:
Staraptor @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Reckless
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Quick Attack
- Brave Bird
- Close Combat
- U-turn​

So many of you might be thinking
"But 1LDK, why not use something like Booster Energy valiant, the best cleaner in the game (wrong) or Dragonite, Dragonite is a physical flying type, is slower, but it's way bulkier, has a set-up move, better priority, recovery, and it doesn't kill itself in the process"

Yes, it's all true, and I'm not saying Staraptor is better, in fact, Staraptor fills a very specific niche ONLY on HO, if Dragonite is a 99% on these teams, then Staraptor should be a 1%, and that is what I'm gonna talk about. Staraptor is a PURE flying physical type that gives you immediate offensive pressure and speed control, and does not give you a fairy weakness. In fact, when you think about it, Dragonite is not even a flying type most of the time unless you're running Hurricane for Tusk

Flying as an offensive type is kinda underrated, Reckless Brave Bird hits hard, Close Combat is for steels and Darks, U-turn is for a good momentum keeper and Quick Attack is mainly because with Brave Bird + Close Combat, you're basically hitting almost everything you want, so might as well have that tool just in case, tera fire, It's not just to become burn proof, but it actually lets you take a +1 Flamethrower from Volc and do a million with Brave Bird


+1 252 SpA Volcarona Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Staraptor: 340-402 (109.3 - 129.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 SpA Volcarona Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tera Fire Staraptor: 170-201 (54.6 - 64.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

I'm gonna post some calcs, this is where people might see a pattern of where I'm finding its niche

252 Atk Reckless Staraptor Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Great Tusk: 266-314 (61.2 - 72.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Reckless Staraptor Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 40+ Def Skeledirge: 195-229 (47.3 - 55.5%) -- 76.6% chance to 2HKO

252 Atk Reckless Staraptor Brave Bird vs. 248 HP / 108 Def Volcarona: 542-642 (145.3 - 172.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Staraptor Close Combat vs. 112 HP / 0 Def Kingambit: 424-500 (114.9 - 135.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Reckless Staraptor Brave Bird vs. 112 HP / 0 Def Tera Flying Kingambit: 190-225 (51.4 - 60.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Reckless Staraptor Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 116-137 (36.8 - 43.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 Atk Reckless Staraptor Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Toxapex: 154-183 (50.6 - 60.1%) -- 85.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Staraptor Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Ting-Lu: 204-242 (39.6 - 47%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Staraptor Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Rotom-Wash: 117-138 (38.4 - 45.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Staraptor Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Orthworm: 138-164 (40.1 - 47.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 Atk Reckless Staraptor Brave Bird vs. 144 HP / 0 Def Multiscale Dragonite: 116-137 (32.3 - 38.1%) -- 96.8% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Reckless Staraptor Brave Bird vs. 144 HP / 0 Def Dragonite: 232-274 (64.6 - 76.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

If you saw the calcs, you might see that Starptor has a good matchup against a good amount of Kingambit´s checks, and since Kingambit is so fucking good, Staraptor can eliminate these partners for him, kill himself, get gambit a free entry AND a Supreme Overlord boost, and then he just goes home. So this takes me to the

Good Partners section:

:Glimmora: / :Meowscarada: if raptor already hits hard, then add some hazards in and your 2HKO, get translated into 1

:Kingambit: like I said before, Kingambit LOVES Staraptor, its ability to take so much stress off him makes it easier to take games

Fire types: it also appreciates melting Corviknight and Gholdengo, 2 of the biggest counters

:Great Tusk: Tusk removes rocks, Staraptor removes Volcarona and can potentially remove Fairy Skeledirge

Checks and Counters:

:Kingambit: if Gambit gets a +2 before vaporizing it, he just Sucker Punches you out of the existence

:Corviknight: / :Gholdengo: and :Rotom-Wash: (if physically defensive): these 3 just take a massive dump on raptor, Staraptor cannot break through these 3 at all, Rotom runs special defense for Walking Wake these days tho, so not all hope is lost

:Dondozo: Lmao

:Iron Valiant: if it is Booster Energy AND has Tbolt then Staraptor gets zapped (fun fact about my personal life, I once saw a bird being electrocuted to death in front of my house because the fucker decided to mess around with the cables of the line, it also caused a blackout for 3 hours)

So I only have 1 reply that makes a good standard and showcases raptor, and it's from round 1, match 2 against Andviet (pls don't be mad, I love u)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1828437120-1hb62fnjwc3t0l0tedj6rf37xumrc7dpw
Turn 10, Raptor gets in, leaves tusk at 6% (here is the proof that it was a low roll: 252 Atk Reckless Staraptor Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Great Tusk: 354-416 (95.4 - 112.1%) -- 75% chance to OHKO) and then Gambit goes full THE ONE PIECE IS REAL

Conclussion

Please ban the bird from UU, it just doesn't feel right to see it in anything but UUBL
I'm kinda tired, and I'm naturally bad at writing endings
please give me likes and replies
As a Staraptor fan (i.e. "Unga 4 things die and I'm one of them" playstyle), I approve of efforts to make it work somewhere. Final Gambit was already mentioned in Ausma's reply as another option for Slot 4, might I also throw in the niche idea of Endeavor? While Staraptor is made of paper, most of its damage is self-inflicted anyway, so compared to FG being a way to trade it at high health for a major threat when its Wallbreaking isn't needed, Endeavor can be a way to get one last lick in before it becomes Death Fodder after a bunch of recoil, especially with several defensive staples getting their bulk off a high HP stat in part like Dondozo or Ting-Lu.

Besides that, might I also suggest Tera Dragon as a slash with Tera Fire? You retain your resistance to Volc's Flamethrower and Giga Drain Coverage, gain an Electric Resistance for things like TBolt Iron Valiant, and shed your Rock Weakness for Hazards, which can matter for buying one extra turn to nuke something given the loss of Flying will make you susceptible to Spikes. I suggest a Slash because gaining a Fairy Weakness means you're trading one KO move for another against Valiant, but I see pros and cons while still fulfilling the main motive you listed for Staraptor bothering with any Tera Type.

252 SpA Iron Valiant Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Staraptor: 280-330 (90 - 106.1%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Iron Valiant Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tera Dragon Staraptor: 70-82 (22.5 - 26.3%) -- 17.9% chance to 4HKO
 
gholdengo has never actually fallen off and honestly feels even better now to me

the only difference is people learned more about other options spreading usage, but i feel like if you do not run a gholdengo on your team, you need a VERY VERY VERY good reason not to
I'm talking about it dropping from 43% to 27% in one month. Yes, it is still used a lot, however Kingambit took its spot as the priority on threats to take in consideration on the builder.

like if you do not run a gholdengo on your team, you need a VERY VERY VERY good reason not to
For me the reasons are the mediocre speed plus with its weakness. Fire, ground, ghost and dark are on almost every mon and adding one more weakness to your team just to block defog (a move that only an OU Pokémon uses) it is kinda meh, especially since if you run a mon with taunt like Meow you also can prevent the defog. It is also a set up fodder for Volc, Dragonite and Gambit.
I'm not saying that it is a bad mon, however I think it is overated, sure it can do several things but can't do them all at the same time and even then, some of those roles aren't that consistent, like convert cloak Gholdengo as a Garg check but still loses to it if the Garg has EQ. Maybe if home brings back defog then I would concede that Gholdengo is really a must for almost any OU team, but for now I think it is just a strong pick but with many consistency issues.
 
I'm talking about it dropping from 43% to 27% in one month. Yes, it is still used a lot, however Kingambit took its spot as the priority on threats to take in consideration on the builder.


For me the reasons are the mediocre speed plus with its weakness. Fire, ground, ghost and dark are on almost every mon and adding one more weakness to your team just to block defog (a move that only an OU Pokémon uses) it is kinda meh, especially since if you run a mon with taunt like Meow you also can prevent the defog. It is also a set up fodder for Volc, Dragonite and Gambit.
I'm not saying that it is a bad mon, however I think it is overated, sure it can do several things but can't do them all at the same time and even then, some of those roles aren't that consistent, like convert cloak Gholdengo as a Garg check but still loses to it if the Garg has EQ. Maybe if home brings back defog then I would concede that Gholdengo is really a must for almost any OU team, but for now I think it is just a strong pick but with many consistency issues.
Yeah, Gholdengo's weaknesses are more pronounced in this more offensive meta & it's bad MUs vs rising stars like Hydreigon do it no favors. However, I'd still say it's general utility of completely blocking broken moves like Spore, Wisp, etc. are still highly valuable to give its team more flexibility to respond to threats using these moves like Rotom-W, even if Ghold itself doesn't necessarily have the best MUs vs them.

That being said, Ghold's popularity + the potency of other Pokemon like Hydreigon that have good 1v1 MUs vs various balance staples like Garg seem to have led to a lot of key Pokemon that Ghold check to also fall out of favor somewhat, so it's niche is less important now. It's one of those Pokemon that seems to be suffering from success. I think Scarf is still a pretty strong set since it can RK some key mons like D-Nite, Dragapult, etc, but Tera sweepers like Bax & other mons like Volcarona can exploit it quite a bit.
 
Yeah Gholdy is still good but in a meta ruled by GT and now Gambit, he is gonna struggle, his typing is amazing but comes with many common weaknesses that some of its enemies can take advantage of. Sadly I see it leaving the top 10 once Home gets released because that will bring more problems to him in the likes of Heatran, Lando, the Hisuian mon, Zapdos and Tornudus (If both still have heat wave), the Urshifus, etc. Hope I’m wrong because the coin fella is my fave mon this gen and love to see it thrive.
 
Yeah Gholdy is still good but in a meta ruled by GT and now Gambit, he is gonna struggle, his typing is amazing but comes with many common weaknesses that some of its enemies can take advantage of. Sadly I see it leaving the top 10 once Home gets released because that will bring more problems to him in the likes of Heatran, Lando, the Hisuian mon, Zapdos and Tornudus (If both still have heat wave), the Urshifus, etc. Hope I’m wrong because the coin fella is my fave mon this gen and love to see it thrive.
For Home/DLCs I think it will depend on what tutor moves stay/get added. At the start of Home I think Gholdengo will raise again thanks to Kleavor and Samurot-H hazard spam teams, also the addition of more fairies will help it, but to keep its usage it will depend on what coverage moves the returning mons get.
 
I figured I'd make a bit of a post about a mon that's been getting a bit more of a spotlight as of lately, and for good reason: Brute Bonnet.

View attachment 504761


So to the surprise of many, Brute Bonnet isn't just viable in OU: with sun support, it's actually quite great! This is a bit of a far cry from how it was viewed the first couple months after SV released; back then, Brute Bonnet was an absolute joke as far as Paradox mons go and didn't really have a discernible niche. Nowadays, I'll go so far as to make a very, very bold claim: Brute Bonnet is arguably the second-hardest mon to switch in against in the metagame, behind Baxcalibur. Seriously; this thing is fucking infuriating to switch in against since it has such good STABs, it has strong coverage in CC or a Fire-type Tera Blast, it has strong setup in Growth, and the ever-dangerous Spore can put a would-be switchin out of commission and force a switch that Brute Bonnet can capitalize on hard.

What Changed for Brute Bonnet Lately?

Well, the biggest change that benefitted Brute Bonnet was the obvious introduction of Walking Wake into the metagame, and now that it's here to stay sun teams are a very legitimate part of the metagame that every competent player must account for when teambuilding. Walking Wake fulfills such an important role on sun teams that gives the remaining four slots a lot more flexibility. You'll often see some variant of Great Tusk on most sun squads, and Eject Button Hatterene is also pretty common, but you can fit a lot of cool stuff into those remaining two teamslots even after these two are slapped onto a team. You'll see some Sandy Shocks, some Roaring Moon, some SD Ceruledge, the occasional Scovillain, you might even see stuff like Breloom or Meowscarada every so often, and so on, but I think Brute Bonnet's role on these teams can't exactly be replicated by many things except Breloom (and this mushroom has a VERY clear niche over Loom).

Otherwise, though, nothing's too out of the ordinary in this metagame. Kingambit being everywhere isn't great for Brute Bonnet, and Gholdengo and Garganacl are on a bit of a decline, but Brute Bonnet doesn't necessarily lose to Kingambit off the rip even with a favorable Tera pick, and Gholdengo and Garganacl, despite their status immunities, have absolutely no business trying to beat this absolute beast of a mon one-on-one.

What Does Brute Bonnet Do?

Surprisingly... a lot! STAB Sucker Punch is extremely common in this metagame thanks to Meowscarada and especially Kingambit, and Brute Bonnet is yet another hard-hitting Sucker Punch user, but that's about where the similarities end. Vert's Brute Bonnet Sun team showcases a pretty clear example of a team that it fits nicely on, and I'd recommend that folks at least give that team a try, but it's actually quite a bit more customizable than just what you're seeing there:

Brute Bonnet @ Loaded Dice
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Fire / Dark / Fighting
EVs: 152 HP / 252 Atk / 104 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Bullet Seed
- Tera Blast / Crunch / Close Combat
- Crunch / Sucker Punch
- Spore / Growth

Loaded Dice+Bullet Seed hurts, especially with Protosynthesis active. Grass isn't a great offensive typing, but it hits Garganacl, Dondozo, Great Tusk, and has decent enough neutral coverage. It also shithouses those Sash PsySpam teams since multi-hits are the bane of those squads' existences. Tera Blast makes Brute Bonnet a bit of a greedy Tera user, but the newfound defensive utility it provides (it forces Kingambit and Tusk to really think about what they're trying to click) and the astronomical power of a Sun-boosted STAB Tera Blast ensures that Steel-types like Corviknight and Kingambit don't want anything to do with it in the first place. Crunch is nice and consistent, and CC offers really good coverage at the cost of nailing Corv harder. Sucker Punch drastically improves Brute Bonnet's matchup against offensive teams that aren't PsySpam since it's such a strong priority move. Spore and Growth are both very threatening moves for radically different reasons: Spore ensures that Brute Bonnet has absolutely zero safe switchins (Grass-types and status-immune mons get annihilated if it predicts the switch and clicks the right button, and a post-Tera Skeledirge doesn't appreciate being put to sleep), while Growth can let Brute Bonnet reach upwards of 1000 Attack while Sun's active, which ensures that those Bullet Seeds and Sucker Punches hurt a lot.

Brute Bonnet is not all that slow, all things considered; now, base 55 Speed isn't even remotely fast, but it means it doesn't need all that much Speed investment to get the jump on Corviknight, and only needs one point more than this to get the jump on the standard 144 Speed Kingambit set. And, more uniquely, Brute Bonnet is really bulky for a wallbreaker of this caliber, and this distinguishes it heavily from Breloom despite them being Spore users known for running a strong Bullet Seed, having good priority, and often running Tera Fire+Tera Blast for coverage. 111/99/99 is unilaterally better bulk than Skeledirge (even though it doesn't invest into it like Dirge does), so Brute Bonnet can eat a neutral hit surprisingly easily and OHKO something in return or land a Spore and get a kill thereafter. Breloom can't eat hits to save its life, but Brute Bonnet can trade against almost everything.

TL;DR: Give Brute Bonnet a try! This thing's pretty highly-ranked on the OU VR right now for such a specific mon, but there's a damn good reason for it. I think that it's still a little underrated despite it and Sandy Shocks being acknowledged as legitimate parts of the OU metagame. The more I think about it, the more I feel like Brute Bonnet is quickly bringing the same level of consistency to sun teams that Hatterene does (in other words, it's a borderline staple!).
do you have a team exemple or a replay because i find it difficult to build around brute bonnet as i find it not as valuable as kingambit and roaring moon ?
 
do you have a team exemple or a replay because i find it difficult to build around brute bonnet as i find it not as valuable as kingambit and roaring moon ?
Scream Tail Sun by Storm Zone (Team of the week)


Team I've used in the past, works very well.

In addition to this one, I linked Vert's sample Sun team directly in my post and have been playing with a modified version that runs Speed Proto Wake>Ceruledge.

Here's a replay of Brute Bonnet putting in an absolute ton of work against someone in the ~1550-1600 range on ladder, and this replay showcases both how hard it can hit and how well it can tank a hit and put something to bed.

EDIT: Meant Ceruledge, not Shocks.
 
Last edited:
glaceon.gif


I actually think Glaceon is more than a meme in OU. I've seen some discussion about Glaceon in this forum, but I haven't seen anyone mention Tera Ground. This is by far it's best tera imo because it hits Gholdengo, Skeledirge, and Kingambit, the most common switch-ins to Freeze-Dry, super effectively. Furthermore, Freeze-Dry and Tera Blast (Ground) are STABs that hit the majority of the metagame for super effective damage.

To illustrate my point let's go down the Viability Ranking thread and see:
S Rank:

S Rank


984.png

Great Tusk Freeze-Dry
983.png

Kingambit Tera Blast

S- Rank

887.png

Dragapult Freeze-Dry
637.png

Volcarona

A Rank:

A+ Rank


149.png

Dragonite Freeze-Dry
934.png

Garganacl Tera Blast
1000.png

Gholdengo Tera Blast
1006.png

Iron Valiant

A Rank

998.png

Baxcalibur
815.png

Cinderace Tera Blast
1005.png

Roaring Moon Freeze-Dry
479-w.png

Rotom-Wash Freeze-Dry
1003.png

Ting-Lu Freeze-Dry
748.png

Toxapex Freeze-Dry Tera Blast
1009.png

Walking Wake Freeze-Dry

A- Rank


591.png

Amoonguss Freeze-Dry
980.png

Clodsire Freeze-Dry Tera Blast
823.png

Corviknight
445.png

Garchomp Freeze-Dry
970.png

Glimmora Tera Blast
658.png

Greninja Freeze-Dry
858.png

Hatterene (note Tera Water is common)
635.png

Hydreigon Freeze-Dry
994.png

Iron Moth Tera Blast
908.png

Meowscarada Freeze-Dry
968.png

Orthworm
911.png

Skeledirge Tera Blast
199.png

Slowking Freeze-Dry
324.png

Torkoal Tera Blast
571-h.png

Zoroark-Hisui

B Rank:

B+ Rank


184.png

Azumarill Freeze-Dry
937.png

Ceruledge Tera Blast
977.png

Dondozo Freeze-Dry
212.png

Scizor

B Rank

286.png

Breloom Freeze-Dry
986.png

Brute Bonnet Freeze-Dry
923.png

Pawmot Tera Blast
279.png

Pelipper Freeze-Dry
989.png

Sandy Shocks Freeze-Dry Tera Blast
985.png

Scream Tail

That's 31 out of the 40 most viable mons for super effective STAB. This coverage is what gives Glaceon a niche in this meta. Of those remaining 9, Zoroak-H and Iron Valiant are OHKO'd neutrally anyway and Corv, Scream Tail, and Hat can be beat with Calm Mind. That leaves Volc, Orthoworm, Bax, and Scizor as the only good switch-ins. Notably, tera water, which is one of the most common defensive teras, is also hit super effectively.

Thus, it's clear that Glaceon can absolutely tear apart many OU teams. The main issues holding it back (besides reliance on tera) are its low speed and lack of useful resists on the defensive side. However, base 65 speed is still faster than basically any wall and 65 / 110 / 95 bulk is enough to take a hit and KO back (Snow will boost its defense as well).

Overall, I've found an assault vest set on a snow team and an expert belt trick room set to be the most viable. The assault vest in snow allows Glaceon to take a bunch of hits and score surprise KOs to break the opposing team apart. On trick room, you circumvent Glaceon's biggest weakness, it's low speed, and can take full advantage of Freeze-Dry + Ground STAB.

In theory, a choice specs set sounds nice, however, it is very prediction reliant; I prefer being able to switch between moves and to make better progress. I'm sure someone could make it work and I think Glaceon has a lot of potential in the hands of a better player than myself (eg Abomasnow screens). The only thing I'm absolutely convinced about is that Tera Ground is the best tera. Tera Ghost and Tera Water (for Volc + Skele) seem nice on paper, but in practice Glaceon doesn't have the speed or defensive utility to take many hits so it prefers OHKOs; Tera Ground gives the best super-effective coverage with Freeze-Dry to get those OHKOs.


Glaceon @ Assault Vest / Leftovers
Ability: Ice Body
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 40 HP / 252 SpA / 216 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Freeze-Dry
- Blizzard
- Tera Blast
- Mud Shot / Calm Mind

I paired this set with Icy Rock Slowking (full team below). With assault vest, Ice Body, and the defense boost due to Snow, Glaceon becomes surprisingly hard to kill. Furthermore, you can tera to tank a super effective attack, but note you'll lose the defense boost. It may appear that lack of boosting item/move causes Glaceon to be weak, but due to the super effective coverage of freeze-dry + ground STAB you hit everything pretty hard. Leftovers (or Expert Belt / Never-Melt-Ice) with Calm Mind > Mud Shot would works, but I've found Assault Vest to be pretty useful in practice. Mud Shot seems odd but it prevents Volc from boosting its speed in your face and can occasionally save you a tera or pull some niche shenanigans where you reduce a switch-ins speed. I don't like trailblaze because every time I click it I either mispredict or get predict correctly but get revenge killed anyway. Speed EVs are for jolly Kingambit, but can certainly be changed.

Glaceon @ Expert Belt / Never-Melt-Ice
Ability: Ice Body
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpA
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Freeze-Dry
- Ice Beam
- Tera Blast
- Calm Mind

This is my favorite set because it's more offensive and almost always puts in work. Moves and EVs are pretty self-explanatory. Ice Beam > Blizzard since this is not a dedicated Snow team. I can't decide between expert belt in order to more easily get those OHKOs on Gambit, Torkoal, Skele, etc. or Never-Melt-Ice to more easily break Corvi/Scream Tail. I generally bring this in early game to break unless the opponent has Orthoworm or Volc. Outside of Orthoworm + Volc (or the rare Blissey) there is nothing that really stops Glaceon under trick room.

Assault Vest in Hail:
I was able to get to the low 1700s with this team. I usually lead Slowking, use Glaceon as an early game wallbreaker, and clean with Valiant or Gambit.

https://pokepast.es/eabbe2ca8ccb2a38

Trick Room:
I also got to the low 1700s with this. This team is the most fun to play with because games go by quick and you can abuse Glaceon to its fullest potential to break the other team apart. Again, I use Glaceon as an early game wallbreaker and then clean with Gambit or Iron Hands (note the latter two can weaken Tusk for each other). I lead Bronzong most of the time with Trick Room --> SR. Only exceptions are I lead Bronzong then switch to Hat against Taunt leads (Meow, Grimm) or Glimmora. I usually lead Glaceon against Torkoal leads to get the OHKO turn 1 since it would otherwise win the hazard war by out slowing me in trick room. Note that Slowking has eject button; this allows me to set trick room with Hat mid game and then switch to Slowking so I don't have to use Healing Wish earlier than I'd like. Lagging tail on Slowking is also good however to move 2nd with chilly reception while in trick room.

https://pokepast.es/9ed2a09b08cd896c

 
Last edited:
That being said, Ghold's popularity... It's one of those Pokemon that seems to be suffering from success.

Ghouldego is just as great as ever.

the drip in usage meanwhile?

well that’s because , if you look at the top 10, almost all have a favourable matchup against it

the meta developed lots of sets that can handle gholdengo.

a victim of its own success

and thanks to the fact that it single-handedly relegated defog usage, everyone is running spin to win instead

and that’s why ghosts now compete with gholdengo, even more so than before

it doesn’t help that dragapult is S tier, and skeledirge is popular as it’s one of the very few reliable checks to a long list of threats that are hard to check, from iron moth, to valiant, to volcarona.

even ceruledge is a legitimately good Pokémon with similar resists to gholdengo, so it also competes with it!
 
and skeledirge is popular as it’s one of the very few reliable checks to a long list of threats that are hard to check, from iron moth, to valiant, to volcarona.
don't forget giratina-a, tera fairy beats it

as for gholdengo, yeah, i think the reason for it dropping in usage is partially the meta decentralizing because everyone carries answers to it, but i also think it's because a lot of people are starting to experiment with more varied teams now that we're in the "hey look all the obviously broken shit is out of the way, i wanna test [insert mon here]" phase of the meta. this generation is probably the most amenable to lower-tier mons that standard competitive play has ever been thanks to tera, even despite the power creep, so there's a lot to test. it also might have something to do with the fact that we didn't really go through that phase of the meta in gen 8 because it was kind of a mess through and through, so people are really excited to actually try things for once

this might not be comprehensible to anyone but me but whatever, i'm sleep-deprived
 
gholdengo isn't just "the mon that stops defog", it is also just literally one of the best attackers or even just glues in the tier

its not my fault if people think that if they dont run spikes it's not very good, but frankly it does a lot more than that

good stats on amazing stab with a good signature move and good signature ability even without hazard blocking

you don't need spikes to make gholdengo worth whatsoever, i'm 99% sure it would be OU without defog blocking lmao

switching into it is a bitch unless you run kingambit which is probably the real reason why gholdengo has "fallen off" (gone from 1/2 teams to 1/3), people have started throwing that onto everything and rightly so, it's an amazing pokemon

for top 10 usage? people are overrating its "bad matchups"

great tusk? okay but it isnt exactly switching into high special attack

iron valiant obviously can't switch into make it rain, and it can only take one shadow ball

dragapult wants to switch into neither stab

dragonite with HDB and multiscale up is a decent temporary answer (honestly better than most of the top 10)

roaring doesnt like make it rain

baxcalibur doesnt like make it rain

meowscarada doesnt like make it rain

hatterene is owned by both stabs

when you say "top 10 has good matchups" what you really mean is the 40+% kingambit and it cannot switch into great tusk's earthquake

most of the tier is 2HKO'd by either stab, and not some easily recoverable amount; 70+% depending on set

it gets opportunities from essentially every support, and rather than being "hurt by the offensive meta", i'd say "gholdengo has caused an offensive meta"

if using any move except the switch button on your defensive pokemon allows a pokemon on 1/3rd of opposing teams to switch in for free, and its hard to switch into, people are going to load up on answers to it

and honestly despite the negative meta shift, I think gholdengo is indisputably top

there is an amazing gholdengo for almost every team. you need a very very good reason not to use it.
 
Last edited:
This is basically a copypasta from niche heat brigade made by me. Enjoy!


GLACEON
:sv/glaceon:
"By controlling its body heat, it can freeze the atmosphere around it to make a diamond-dust flurry."
-BW Dex Entry

"nooo, you can’t just oneshot me with a resisted move, that’s not fair at all!"
-quaquaval

"haha specs tera ice blizzard go brrrr"
-glaceon

HP
65
ATK
60
Def
110
SpATK
130
SpDef
95
SpD
60
CHOICE SPECS
Glaceon @ Choice Specs
Ability: Ice Body/Snow Cloak
Tera Type: Ice
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Blizzard
- Freeze Dry
- Water Pulse/Shadow Ball
- Mud Slap/ Shadow Ball

Blizzard 2HKOs a huge portion of OU and when Tera ice and specs deals up to 38% to blissey.

Freeze Dry can be paired with Water Pulse or mud slap for wide coverage. Shadow Ball deals great neutral damage to everything.

The reason why this set works is that it counters 2 of the most popular archetypes currently: Balance and Bulky Offense. A staple of these teams is Ting-Lu, which has massive bulk and can set up hazards and phase easily. However, glaceon can counter it hard. It also counters 2 popular Ting-Lu defensive partners: Rotom-Wash and Amoonguss. Being able to easily destroy balance teams is a great factor, and it cannot be walled by another very popular special wall also used in balance and most stall teams, clodsire, as blizzard freezes the sire.

All glaceon sets must have a snow setter, either slowking or abomasnow.

AV+Trailblaze
Glaceon @ Assault Vest
Ability: Ice Body
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Freeze-Dry
- Shadow Ball
- Blizzard
- Trailblaze

This set is made by Morkal, credits to them. AV+ Trailblaze form a great combo. AV grants bulk to successfully pull off trailblazes, an attack that boosts speed. This patches up it’s speed issue. Then, Freeze-Drys, Blizzards and shadow balls can be fired against faster mons, allowing it to break more offensive teams.

Hail Stall
Glaceon @ Leftovers
Ability: Ice Body
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 Spe
Modest Nature
- Freeze-Dry/ Ice Beam
- Substitute
- Protect
- Calm Mind

This allows glaceon to beat special attackers and non CM blissey. Simply substitute and protect, then use CM until the substitute can survive a hit, then unleash attacks. Ice beam has worse coverage but deals more damage,
 
and thanks to the fact that it single-handedly relegated defog usage, everyone is running spin to win instead
Reposting because it messed up the post yesterday, don't post while you are sleepy.
There are only two good (for OU) defogers and one of them beats Gholdengo. Everyone uses spin because the spinners are good. Game Freak was the one who relegated defog to a very few options.
Now, to add something else, I would say that what have made Gholdengo "fall" is that the meta has become stable enough to have propely built teams. It is not a secret that this gen powercreep has been a mess so for a long time we have been able to run sub optimal teams to deal with broken stuff, but now the meta is not that restricted so we can have more freedom in building so some mons got just worse because now they have to fight against well built teams. Other examples of this happening on both ways are Quaq and Bax, the duck gave the impression it was decent on the early gen9 OU because most teams didn't have a proper water resist because the meta was just too offensive, but now that teams can afford have good defensive cores that thing isn't sweeping anyone with the mono attack set and the other sets are too weak. While Bax wallbreaking potential was overlooked because in an offensive oriented meta it just lost to everything, but now in a stable meta it have got the respect it deserves as a top threat for OU.
 
Last edited:
What Home core are you the most excited to try out first?

180px-Goodra_de_Hisui_(dream_world).png
200px-0934MSSV.png

For me it's Tera Water/Fairy Gargnacl + GoodraH (+ Glimmora).

Gargnacl struggles against special wallbreakers and Gholdengo, AV GoodraH can easily hit back hard every single one of them with either Heavy Slam or Earthquake even with 0 investment. And set-up mons can't setup thanks to dragon tail. Last move can be drago meteor, ice beam, flame thrower, rock slide, etc. The sky's the limit.
Also the combo dragon tail + SE move against fairy (usually 120bp) seems very promising to me.
Glimmora is used for hazard removal (that cripples HGoodra) as well as set up its own hazards for even meater dragontails.

Sounds like a (paradoxal) match in heaven when you look beyond the x2 ground and x2 fighting for both.

Some calcs:
0 Atk Goodra-Hisui Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Iron Valiant: 282-332 (97.5 - 114.8%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
0 Atk Goodra-Hisui Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 204+ Def Hatterene: 204-240 (64.1 - 75.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0- SpA Goodra-Hisui Draco Meteor vs. 12 HP / 0 SpD Walking Wake: 320-378 (93.5 - 110.5%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
0 Atk Goodra-Hisui Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 150-178 (47.6 - 56.5%) -- 83.6% chance to 2HKO

244 SpA Choice Specs Walking Wake Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Goodra-Hisui: 111-132 (30.4 - 36.2%) -- 50.5% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Iron Valiant Aura Sphere vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Goodra-Hisui: 134-158 (36.8 - 43.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Gholdengo Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Goodra-Hisui: 49-58 (13.4 - 15.9%) -- possible 7HKO
 
Pokemon-Scarlet-and-Violet-Hisuian-Samurott.png

On the other end of the spectrum, I feel like HSamurott is overhyped and won't be as good as what is predicted because there are so much better spikes options in the meta (Meowscarada, Glimmora, Garchomp even Hydreigon) that are more useful than him throughout a match.
Especially being slower than Glimmora and Great Tusk hurts his chances a lot I feel. Not even talking about being weak to Corvenight and having defenses so squishy he takes 50% for resisted Gholdengo make it rain.

252 SpA Gholdengo Make It Rain vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Samurott-Hisui: 141-167 (43.9 - 52%) -- 14.1% chance to 2HKO
 
I wonder why Rotom-W, Ting-Lu, and Garchomp usage fell off a cliff this month. I'm guessing it's walking wake related? Do y'all foresee any of these mons dropping to UU or will this be a bounce-back month now that the new toy syndrome of WW/Sun has worn off
 
I wonder why Rotom-W, Ting-Lu, and Garchomp usage fell off a cliff this month. I'm guessing it's walking wake related? Do y'all foresee any of these mons dropping to UU or will this be a bounce-back month now that the new toy syndrome of WW/Sun has worn off
I think Garchomp could see a rebound once people adjust the set that performs best (Mon tends to stay OU because it always had at least one A/A- worthy set, just has to know what that set is at any given time). Ting-Lu I don't see falling to UU, it's too bulky a Hazard Setter and pivot to fall out of favor even with something like Walking Wake. Rotom-W I'd be curious about because I never have a good read on what causes that thing to rise and fall
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top