np SV UU Stage 3.1 - Rain On Me

[Liquidocelot]

Quaquaval can also 2hko slowking as well off of a life orb/choice banded cc, and that seems to be the elephant in the room because it seems that Quaquaval is pretty restricting on the builder and even outside of rain it is capable of wreaking havoc upon uu and probably has to be dealt with before rain. Rain is busted, but I think Quaquaval takes priority here for the next suspect/quickban.

 

[eeriespell]

I am pro Drizzle ban. I think rain generally rewards ooga booga playstyles and requires dedicated counterplay at the expense of tier-wide creativity in the builder. I wouldn't be shocked if we have 2-3 more Pelliper rises/drops before the end of the generation.

This is honestly a good statement to think about. How long are we willing to play Peli Pong with OU before we just decide Rain isn't worth the headache? Not a call for action but definitely food for thought.

 

[Anri_Dies]

While the variety of options is always fantastic to have, I have to ask if it's worth it to implement a complex ban specifically to save Keen Eye Pelipper. It does have a niche for sure as a good Quaquaval switch in that is also a ground immunity, but we could say the same about Salamence which also has a real ability behind it and is better in almost every stat.

Don't get me wrong, Peliper is not unusable, U-Turn + Roost + Knock off will always keep it relevant to some degree. It's only weak to two types and it does have strong STAB (although significantly weaker without rain) and a perfectly usable SpA. With that said there's not a lot more upside. It's most useful resists (assuming a world where rain is gone from UU) all come from its flying type which has strong viable alternatives in Talonflame and Defensive Salamence, both of which come with incredibly relevant abilities and also have other useful resists like fairy and grass. It is not the best water type wall either when we take Slowbro and Quagsire into account.

I guess it depends on what the Future holds for Quaquaval and how relevant a threat it ends up being/ if tera blast electric picks up any steam, but I cannot really find many other uses for Pelipper off the top of my head. Can anyone else think of something?

 

[HaxxLR]

Suspecting it should definitely be prioritized but yeah it doesn't necessarily have to be quickbanned. as all these checks you listed can lose to it through the right tera, making Quaquaval a massive guessing game, and if you guess wrong, you probably lose straight up or get put into an unfavorable position. Gyarados/Pelliper loses to tera electric, scream tail loses to tera steel/poison, slowbro loses to sets that use u-turn or tera dark, gastrodon gets 2hko'd by CC and can play around gastrodon's tera ghost by running dark tera blast, water tauros loses to brave bird/tera flying, you get the idea at this point. None of the potential answers to it are really all that great, as trying to guess all the possible teras it may have often run is kinda nightmarish, as if you guess wrong, chances are good you get swept or get nearly swept by it. Quaquaval should be suspected as the mon is already starting to put a strain on teambuilding. You can offensively deal with it, but dealing with it defensively is just a stupid matchup fish that basically relies on tera type matchups and guessing games.

I'm not a big fan of the argument "all these checks you listed can lose to it through the right tera" because every setup sweeper can beat their checks or counters with the right tera. I don't think it's worth to try to guess each Tera Type Quaquaval may have because some of them aren't consistent enough to be good. They are always bads effects with tera, for example if you Tera Flying, you become weak to stealth rock and you don't resist anymore Scizor's bullet punch. I'm maybe wrong but I don't think you really want to give up stabs, ice spinner or sword dance on LO sets so I don't think Tera Blast is really good on Quaquaval. I don't have a strong opinion yet on Quaquaval but I agree that we should wait for some adaptations.

 

[BolTingBlazie]

I'm not a big fan of the argument "all these checks you listed can lose to it through the right tera" because every setup sweeper can beat their checks or counters with the right tera. I don't think it's worth to try to guess each Tera Type Quaquaval may have because some of them aren't consistent enough to be good. They are always bads effects with tera, for example if you Tera Flying, you become weak to stealth rock and you don't resist anymore Scizor's bullet punch. I'm maybe wrong but I don't think you really want to give up stabs, ice spinner or sword dance on LO sets so I don't think Tera Blast is really good on Quaquaval. I don't have a strong opinion yet on Quaquaval but I agree that we should wait for some adaptations.

Losing to Quaquaval specifically is really bad as we know as that is a free attack boost, and gaining the coverage through tera blast can be the difference in beating its checks and possibly sweeping or potentially being checked by something like Gastrodon, Slowbro, Scream Tail, Quagsire, or Gyarados. My point being absolutely nothing in this tier is safe against it due to the variance it has, as even its checks have to worry about it spiraling out of control or what tera it has, or what set it is even running.

 

[Moutemoute]

I support what HaxxLR said above. I've seen a lot of people complaining about Quaquaval which would be able to circumvent all its checks with the correct moveset or Tera Type but I feel like a lot of those posts are focused on theorizing. People have mentionned a lot of Tera Types which sound broken on paper but unless I'm seeing good examples of those Tera Types in action (i.e valid replays), I can't really rely on what people said. Sure Quaquaval has the tools to be an issue for the tier but I also think we have common staples which are able to handle a good chunk of its variants. This Pokémon has a massive 4 MSS and will never be able to beat everything at once. It's able to snowball games, that's for sure but in the current metagame and due to the come back of Rain teams in Underused, teams are forced to run answer to Water-types anyway which helps naturally vs Quaquaval's matchup. I personally think that we should wait to see how the metagame is adapting before rushing on a decision. This new metagame isn't even a week old. I'll make another post in a few days to talk about my feeling on everything we got.

 

[Swagodile]

I support what HaxxLR said above. I've seen a lot of people complaining about Quaquaval which would be able to circumvent all its checks with the correct moveset or Tera Type but I feel like a lot of those posts are focused on theorizing. People have mentionned a lot of Tera Types which sound broken on paper but unless I'm seeing good examples of those Tera Types in action (i.e valid replays), I can't really rely on what people said. Sure Quaquaval has the tools to be an issue for the tier but I also think we have common staples which are able to handle a good chunk of its variants. This Pokémon has a massive 4 MSS and will never be able to beat everything at once. It's able to snowball games, that's for sure but in the current metagame and due to the come back of Rain teams in Underused, teams are forced to run answer to Water-types anyway which helps naturally vs Quaquaval's matchup. I personally think that we should wait to see how the metagame is adapting before rushing on a decision. This new metagame isn't even a week old. I'll make another post in a few days to talk about my feeling on everything we got.

No, Quaquaval can't hit everything super-effectively, but with rain or/and boosts, the damage that even resists take isn't insignificant.

 

[Lizzie]

A lot of interesting discussion here. I think one of the biggest issues that quaquaval faces is that sd 3 attack sets which on paper seem the most difficult to deal with struggles to find oppurtunities vs the offensive teams it so easily shreads through on paper. For example take this ho team I made before drops https://pokepast.es/ebc99a04c937f720

Even though this team wasn't prepared with quaquaval in mind, 5 out of 6 pokemon still threaten it in a 1v1 mu, and if it does come in on weavile then gyarados can still check it. If it does get going it can be very hard to stop but it really doesn't get going that easily. When it comes to more bo/balance teams, it can be harder to prevent it from coming in, but I'm sure long term we'll figure out different ways of checking it.

The other quaquavall set I think is interesting is taunt bulk up, although this set has it's own issues.
Quaquaval @ Leftovers/Heavy Duty Boots
Ability: Moxie
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 200 HP / 252 SpD / 56 Spe
Careful Nature
- Aqua Step
- Taunt
- Bulk Up
- Roost
It's entirely likely this can be optimised more, but the idea is you outspeed mence after aqua step and can beat it 1v1 with tera, while also beating common checks like slowbro and aqua tauros. Of course the biggest problem with this set is that mono water coverage isn't amazing, particularly given the current prevalence of water immunities like quagsire and gastrodon, and it can also struggle vs certain resists. Overall though this seems like such an auto win in some mus if it's in the right players hands.

Overall though I'm actually finding iron leaves to be more ridiculous atm, it does crazy damage to anything you try to check it with and is unbelievably difficult to revenge kill

 

[Lily]

i do appreciate the stats but considering they go as far back as orthworm being legal and indeed in the top 20 most used mons, i am not sure how realistically useful they are for determining any future tiering action. thank you for sharing though! some cool insights for sure

 

[TyCarter]

Per Pif's request, I'm here to drop the usage stats for the Drewvitational. It was an 128 player double elimination tournament, so there is a lot of good information contained in the replays. Keep in mind these stats are from several meta games and do contain Pokemon that are now banned. Here are the stats:

STATS

+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon            | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1    | Tinkaton           |  328 |  43.50% |  48.48% |
| 2    | Talonflame         |  263 |  34.88% |  49.24% |
| 3    | Gengar             |  181 |  24.01% |  46.69% |
| 4    | Tyranitar          |  157 |  20.82% |  51.59% |
| 5    | Sandy Shocks       |  151 |  20.03% |  52.98% |
| 6    | Slowking           |  145 |  19.23% |  48.97% |
| 7    | Slither Wing       |  133 |  17.64% |  54.14% |
| 8    | Gastrodon          |  130 |  17.24% |  49.23% |
| 9    | Tsareena           |  124 |  16.45% |  48.39% |
| 10   | Scream Tail        |  107 |  14.19% |  55.14% |
| 10   | Salamence          |  107 |  14.19% |  44.86% |
| 12   | Quagsire           |   97 |  12.86% |  47.94% |
| 13   | Wo-Chien           |   94 |  12.47% |  59.57% |
| 14   | Bisharp            |   86 |  11.41% |  54.65% |
| 15   | Brambleghast       |   80 |  10.61% |  56.88% |
| 15   | Lucario            |   80 |  10.61% |  53.75% |
| 17   | Hippowdon          |   78 |  10.34% |  53.85% |
| 18   | Mimikyu            |   72 |   9.55% |  60.42% |
| 19   | Orthworm           |   71 |   9.42% |  47.18% |
| 20   | Donphan            |   69 |   9.15% |  55.07% |
| 20   | Haxorus            |   69 |   9.15% |  49.28% |
| 22   | Kilowattrel        |   66 |   8.75% |  52.27% |
| 23   | Pelipper           |   65 |   8.62% |  48.46% |
| 24   | Grafaiai           |   64 |   8.49% |  48.44% |
| 25   | Iron Jugulis       |   63 |   8.36% |  49.21% |
| 26   | Noivern            |   59 |   7.82% |  52.54% |
| 27   | Oricorio-Pom-Pom   |   53 |   7.03% |  50.94% |
| 27   | Magnezone          |   53 |   7.03% |  37.74% |
| 29   | Hawlucha           |   52 |   6.90% |  50.96% |
| 30   | Polteageist        |   51 |   6.76% |  60.78% |
| 30   | Toxtricity         |   51 |   6.76% |  53.92% |
| 32   | Gallade            |   49 |   6.50% |  53.06% |
| 33   | Slowbro            |   47 |   6.23% |  51.06% |
| 34   | Alomomola          |   46 |   6.10% |  45.65% |
| 34   | Toedscruel         |   46 |   6.10% |  45.65% |
| 36   | Indeedee           |   40 |   5.31% |  53.75% |
| 37   | Barraskewda        |   39 |   5.17% |  52.56% |
| 37   | Armarouge          |   39 |   5.17% |  44.87% |
| 39   | Golduck            |   38 |   5.04% |  46.05% |
| 40   | Iron Hands         |   36 |   4.77% |  52.78% |
| 40   | Lokix              |   36 |   4.77% |  47.22% |
| 42   | Staraptor          |   35 |   4.64% |  54.29% |
| 42   | Gardevoir          |   35 |   4.64% |  48.57% |
| 44   | Drednaw            |   33 |   4.38% |  50.00% |
| 45   | Rotom-Mow          |   32 |   4.24% |  37.50% |
| 46   | Lycanroc-Dusk      |   31 |   4.11% |  51.61% |
| 47   | Maushold           |   30 |   3.98% |  53.33% |
| 48   | Iron Thorns        |   29 |   3.85% |  44.83% |
| 49   | Scizor             |   27 |   3.58% |  59.26% |
| 49   | Gyarados           |   27 |   3.58% |  50.00% |
| 49   | Blissey            |   27 |   3.58% |  40.74% |
| 52   | Pawmot             |   26 |   3.45% |  57.69% |
| 52   | Espeon             |   26 |   3.45% |  50.00% |
| 52   | Maushold-Four      |   26 |   3.45% |  38.46% |
| 55   | Floatzel           |   24 |   3.18% |  45.83% |
| 55   | Altaria            |   24 |   3.18% |  33.33% |
| 57   | Klefki             |   22 |   2.92% |  59.09% |
| 57   | Brute Bonnet       |   22 |   2.92% |  59.09% |
| 59   | Froslass           |   21 |   2.79% |  42.86% |
| 60   | Tauros-Paldea-Blaze |   20 |   2.65% |  60.00% |
| 60   | Cloyster           |   20 |   2.65% |  40.00% |
| 62   | Tatsugiri          |   19 |   2.52% |  36.84% |
| 62   | Hariyama           |   19 |   2.52% |  31.58% |
| 64   | Tauros-Paldea-Water |   17 |   2.25% |  58.82% |
| 65   | Weavile            |   16 |   2.12% |  50.00% |
| 66   | Forretress         |   14 |   1.86% |  42.86% |
| 67   | Farigiraf          |   13 |   1.72% |  46.15% |
| 68   | Heracross          |   12 |   1.59% |  33.33% |
| 69   | Polteageist-Antique |   11 |   1.46% |  50.00% |
| 69   | Tauros-Paldea-Aqua |   11 |   1.46% |  45.45% |
| 71   | Veluza             |    9 |   1.19% |  66.67% |
| 71   | Tatsugiri-Droopy   |    9 |   1.19% |  66.67% |
| 71   | Krookodile         |    9 |   1.19% |  33.33% |
| 74   | Chansey            |    8 |   1.06% |  50.00% |
| 74   | Vaporeon           |    8 |   1.06% |  50.00% |
| 74   | Salazzle           |    8 |   1.06% |  37.50% |
| 77   | Palossand          |    7 |   0.93% |  71.43% |
| 77   | Coalossal          |    7 |   0.93% |  57.14% |
| 77   | Rotom-Heat         |    7 |   0.93% |  57.14% |
| 77   | Rabsca             |    7 |   0.93% |  57.14% |
| 77   | Ursaring           |    7 |   0.93% |  57.14% |
| 77   | Pincurchin         |    7 |   0.93% |  42.86% |
| 77   | Dragalge           |    7 |   0.93% |  42.86% |
| 77   | Umbreon            |    7 |   0.93% |  14.29% |
| 85   | Arboliva           |    6 |   0.80% |  83.33% |
| 85   | Masquerain         |    6 |   0.80% |  50.00% |
| 87   | Oricorio-Sensu     |    5 |   0.66% |  60.00% |
| 87   | Bombirdier         |    5 |   0.66% |  60.00% |
| 87   | Florges-Blue       |    5 |   0.66% |  60.00% |
| 87   | Ditto              |    5 |   0.66% |  20.00% |
| 87   | Torkoal            |    5 |   0.66% |  20.00% |
| 87   | Cetitan            |    5 |   0.66% |   0.00% |
| 93   | Lycanroc           |    4 |   0.53% |  50.00% |
| 94   | Squawkabilly       |    3 |   0.40% |  66.67% |
| 94   | Tatsugiri-Stretchy |    3 |   0.40% |  66.67% |
| 94   | Bronzong           |    3 |   0.40% |  66.67% |
| 94   | Medicham           |    3 |   0.40% |  50.00% |
| 94   | Cryogonal          |    3 |   0.40% |  33.33% |
| 94   | Sableye            |    3 |   0.40% |  33.33% |
| 94   | Primeape           |    3 |   0.40% |  33.33% |
| 94   | Dudunsparce-*      |    3 |   0.40% |  33.33% |
| 94   | Frosmoth           |    3 |   0.40% |  33.33% |
| 94   | Florges            |    3 |   0.40% |   0.00% |
| 94   | Bellibolt          |    3 |   0.40% |   0.00% |
| 105  | Avalugg            |    2 |   0.27% | 100.00% |
| 105  | Eiscue             |    2 |   0.27% | 100.00% |
| 105  | Sandaconda         |    2 |   0.27% | 100.00% |
| 105  | Tauros-Paldea-Fire |    2 |   0.27% |  50.00% |
| 105  | Naclstack          |    2 |   0.27% |  50.00% |
| 105  | Toxicroak          |    2 |   0.27% |  50.00% |
| 105  | Venomoth           |    2 |   0.27% |  50.00% |
| 105  | Zangoose           |    2 |   0.27% |  50.00% |
| 105  | Drifblim           |    2 |   0.27% |  50.00% |
| 105  | Charizard          |    2 |   0.27% |  50.00% |
| 105  | Qwilfish           |    2 |   0.27% |  50.00% |
| 105  | Muk                |    2 |   0.27% |  50.00% |
| 105  | Flamigo            |    2 |   0.27% |   0.00% |
| 105  | Skuntank           |    2 |   0.27% |   0.00% |
| 105  | Abomasnow          |    2 |   0.27% |   0.00% |
| 105  | Sylveon            |    2 |   0.27% |   0.00% |
| 105  | Hattrem            |    2 |   0.27% |   0.00% |
| 105  | Hatenna            |    2 |   0.27% |   0.00% |
| 123  | Morgrem            |    1 |   0.13% | 100.00% |
| 123  | Toxtricity-Low-Key |    1 |   0.13% | 100.00% |
| 123  | Sawsbuck-Summer    |    1 |   0.13% | 100.00% |
| 123  | Mabosstiff         |    1 |   0.13% | 100.00% |
| 123  | Indeedee-F         |    1 |   0.13% | 100.00% |
| 123  | Braviary           |    1 |   0.13% | 100.00% |
| 123  | Copperajah         |    1 |   0.13% | 100.00% |
| 123  | Gogoat             |    1 |   0.13% |   0.00% |
| 123  | Goodra             |    1 |   0.13% |   0.00% |
| 123  | Bruxish            |    1 |   0.13% |   0.00% |
| 123  | Zoroark            |    1 |   0.13% |   0.00% |
| 123  | Mismagius          |    1 |   0.13% |   0.00% |
| 123  | Scovillain         |    1 |   0.13% |   0.00% |
| 123  | Dachsbun           |    1 |   0.13% |   0.00% |
| 123  | Grimmsnarl         |    1 |   0.13% |   0.00% |
| 123  | Arcanine           |    1 |   0.13% |   0.00% |
| 123  | Glaceon            |    1 |   0.13% |   0.00% |
| 123  | Glimmet            |    1 |   0.13% |   0.00% |

These are stats compiled from 377 replays and a total of 4,525 Pokemon.

Let's put Tinkaton's usage into perspective. There was a Tinkaton in 87% of the games in this tour. That's a lot.

Seeing Noivern low in usage is something that is surprising and probably critically damaging to Lily's mental health.

I think it's clear how much usage Gengar and Sandy Shocks get and how dominant they are in the meta. If we were to have a suspect test soon I believe they are the only two candidates.

I hope these stats can spark some interesting conversations!

Drew would it be possible to actually split the usage stats into months or even by rounds? As Lily said, it might not necessarily tell us as much given how long the tour went on for. But if it's split off it could be more helpful and also gives is insight to how the metagame evolved perhaps.

 

[AJ]

Eh okay I'll put these back. Not relevant, just cool

???

+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon            | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1    | Tinkaton           |  328 |  43.50% |  48.48% |
| 2    | Talonflame         |  263 |  34.88% |  49.24% |
| 3    | Gengar             |  181 |  24.01% |  46.69% |
| 4    | Tyranitar          |  157 |  20.82% |  51.59% |
| 5    | Sandy Shocks       |  151 |  20.03% |  52.98% |
| 6    | Slowking           |  145 |  19.23% |  48.97% |
| 7    | Slither Wing       |  133 |  17.64% |  54.14% |
| 8    | Gastrodon          |  130 |  17.24% |  49.23% |
| 9    | Tsareena           |  124 |  16.45% |  48.39% |
| 10   | Scream Tail        |  107 |  14.19% |  55.14% |
| 10   | Salamence          |  107 |  14.19% |  44.86% |
| 12   | Quagsire           |   97 |  12.86% |  47.94% |
| 13   | Wo-Chien           |   94 |  12.47% |  59.57% |
| 14   | Bisharp            |   86 |  11.41% |  54.65% |
| 15   | Brambleghast       |   80 |  10.61% |  56.88% |
| 15   | Lucario            |   80 |  10.61% |  53.75% |
| 17   | Hippowdon          |   78 |  10.34% |  53.85% |
| 18   | Mimikyu            |   72 |   9.55% |  60.42% |
| 19   | Orthworm           |   71 |   9.42% |  47.18% |
| 20   | Donphan            |   69 |   9.15% |  55.07% |
| 20   | Haxorus            |   69 |   9.15% |  49.28% |
| 22   | Kilowattrel        |   66 |   8.75% |  52.27% |
| 23   | Pelipper           |   65 |   8.62% |  48.46% |
| 24   | Grafaiai           |   64 |   8.49% |  48.44% |
| 25   | Iron Jugulis       |   63 |   8.36% |  49.21% |
| 26   | Noivern            |   59 |   7.82% |  52.54% |
| 27   | Oricorio-Pom-Pom   |   53 |   7.03% |  50.94% |
| 27   | Magnezone          |   53 |   7.03% |  37.74% |
| 29   | Hawlucha           |   52 |   6.90% |  50.96% |
| 30   | Polteageist        |   51 |   6.76% |  60.78% |
| 30   | Toxtricity         |   51 |   6.76% |  53.92% |
| 32   | Gallade            |   49 |   6.50% |  53.06% |
| 33   | Slowbro            |   47 |   6.23% |  51.06% |
| 34   | Alomomola          |   46 |   6.10% |  45.65% |
| 34   | Toedscruel         |   46 |   6.10% |  45.65% |
| 36   | Indeedee           |   40 |   5.31% |  53.75% |
| 37   | Barraskewda        |   39 |   5.17% |  52.56% |
| 37   | Armarouge          |   39 |   5.17% |  44.87% |
| 39   | Golduck            |   38 |   5.04% |  46.05% |
| 40   | Iron Hands         |   36 |   4.77% |  52.78% |
| 40   | Lokix              |   36 |   4.77% |  47.22% |
| 42   | Staraptor          |   35 |   4.64% |  54.29% |
| 42   | Gardevoir          |   35 |   4.64% |  48.57% |
| 44   | Drednaw            |   33 |   4.38% |  50.00% |
| 45   | Rotom-Mow          |   32 |   4.24% |  37.50% |
| 46   | Lycanroc-Dusk      |   31 |   4.11% |  51.61% |
| 47   | Maushold           |   30 |   3.98% |  53.33% |
| 48   | Iron Thorns        |   29 |   3.85% |  44.83% |
| 49   | Scizor             |   27 |   3.58% |  59.26% |
| 49   | Gyarados           |   27 |   3.58% |  50.00% |
| 49   | Blissey            |   27 |   3.58% |  40.74% |
| 52   | Pawmot             |   26 |   3.45% |  57.69% |
| 52   | Espeon             |   26 |   3.45% |  50.00% |
| 52   | Maushold-Four      |   26 |   3.45% |  38.46% |
| 55   | Floatzel           |   24 |   3.18% |  45.83% |
| 55   | Altaria            |   24 |   3.18% |  33.33% |
| 57   | Klefki             |   22 |   2.92% |  59.09% |
| 57   | Brute Bonnet       |   22 |   2.92% |  59.09% |
| 59   | Froslass           |   21 |   2.79% |  42.86% |
| 60   | Tauros-Paldea-Blaze |   20 |   2.65% |  60.00% |
| 60   | Cloyster           |   20 |   2.65% |  40.00% |
| 62   | Tatsugiri          |   19 |   2.52% |  36.84% |
| 62   | Hariyama           |   19 |   2.52% |  31.58% |
| 64   | Tauros-Paldea-Water |   17 |   2.25% |  58.82% |
| 65   | Weavile            |   16 |   2.12% |  50.00% |
| 66   | Forretress         |   14 |   1.86% |  42.86% |
| 67   | Farigiraf          |   13 |   1.72% |  46.15% |
| 68   | Heracross          |   12 |   1.59% |  33.33% |
| 69   | Polteageist-Antique |   11 |   1.46% |  50.00% |
| 69   | Tauros-Paldea-Aqua |   11 |   1.46% |  45.45% |
| 71   | Veluza             |    9 |   1.19% |  66.67% |
| 71   | Tatsugiri-Droopy   |    9 |   1.19% |  66.67% |
| 71   | Krookodile         |    9 |   1.19% |  33.33% |
| 74   | Chansey            |    8 |   1.06% |  50.00% |
| 74   | Vaporeon           |    8 |   1.06% |  50.00% |
| 74   | Salazzle           |    8 |   1.06% |  37.50% |
| 77   | Palossand          |    7 |   0.93% |  71.43% |
| 77   | Coalossal          |    7 |   0.93% |  57.14% |
| 77   | Rotom-Heat         |    7 |   0.93% |  57.14% |
| 77   | Rabsca             |    7 |   0.93% |  57.14% |
| 77   | Ursaring           |    7 |   0.93% |  57.14% |
| 77   | Pincurchin         |    7 |   0.93% |  42.86% |
| 77   | Dragalge           |    7 |   0.93% |  42.86% |
| 77   | Umbreon            |    7 |   0.93% |  14.29% |
| 85   | Arboliva           |    6 |   0.80% |  83.33% |
| 85   | Masquerain         |    6 |   0.80% |  50.00% |
| 87   | Oricorio-Sensu     |    5 |   0.66% |  60.00% |
| 87   | Bombirdier         |    5 |   0.66% |  60.00% |
| 87   | Florges-Blue       |    5 |   0.66% |  60.00% |
| 87   | Ditto              |    5 |   0.66% |  20.00% |
| 87   | Torkoal            |    5 |   0.66% |  20.00% |
| 87   | Cetitan            |    5 |   0.66% |   0.00% |
| 93   | Lycanroc           |    4 |   0.53% |  50.00% |
| 94   | Squawkabilly       |    3 |   0.40% |  66.67% |
| 94   | Tatsugiri-Stretchy |    3 |   0.40% |  66.67% |
| 94   | Bronzong           |    3 |   0.40% |  66.67% |
| 94   | Medicham           |    3 |   0.40% |  50.00% |
| 94   | Cryogonal          |    3 |   0.40% |  33.33% |
| 94   | Sableye            |    3 |   0.40% |  33.33% |
| 94   | Primeape           |    3 |   0.40% |  33.33% |
| 94   | Dudunsparce-*      |    3 |   0.40% |  33.33% |
| 94   | Frosmoth           |    3 |   0.40% |  33.33% |
| 94   | Florges            |    3 |   0.40% |   0.00% |
| 94   | Bellibolt          |    3 |   0.40% |   0.00% |
| 105  | Avalugg            |    2 |   0.27% | 100.00% |
| 105  | Eiscue             |    2 |   0.27% | 100.00% |
| 105  | Sandaconda         |    2 |   0.27% | 100.00% |
| 105  | Tauros-Paldea-Fire |    2 |   0.27% |  50.00% |
| 105  | Naclstack          |    2 |   0.27% |  50.00% |
| 105  | Toxicroak          |    2 |   0.27% |  50.00% |
| 105  | Venomoth           |    2 |   0.27% |  50.00% |
| 105  | Zangoose           |    2 |   0.27% |  50.00% |
| 105  | Drifblim           |    2 |   0.27% |  50.00% |
| 105  | Charizard          |    2 |   0.27% |  50.00% |
| 105  | Qwilfish           |    2 |   0.27% |  50.00% |
| 105  | Muk                |    2 |   0.27% |  50.00% |
| 105  | Flamigo            |    2 |   0.27% |   0.00% |
| 105  | Skuntank           |    2 |   0.27% |   0.00% |
| 105  | Abomasnow          |    2 |   0.27% |   0.00% |
| 105  | Sylveon            |    2 |   0.27% |   0.00% |
| 105  | Hattrem            |    2 |   0.27% |   0.00% |
| 105  | Hatenna            |    2 |   0.27% |   0.00% |
| 123  | Morgrem            |    1 |   0.13% | 100.00% |
| 123  | Toxtricity-Low-Key |    1 |   0.13% | 100.00% |
| 123  | Sawsbuck-Summer    |    1 |   0.13% | 100.00% |
| 123  | Mabosstiff         |    1 |   0.13% | 100.00% |
| 123  | Indeedee-F         |    1 |   0.13% | 100.00% |
| 123  | Braviary           |    1 |   0.13% | 100.00% |
| 123  | Copperajah         |    1 |   0.13% | 100.00% |
| 123  | Gogoat             |    1 |   0.13% |   0.00% |
| 123  | Goodra             |    1 |   0.13% |   0.00% |
| 123  | Bruxish            |    1 |   0.13% |   0.00% |
| 123  | Zoroark            |    1 |   0.13% |   0.00% |
| 123  | Mismagius          |    1 |   0.13% |   0.00% |
| 123  | Scovillain         |    1 |   0.13% |   0.00% |
| 123  | Dachsbun           |    1 |   0.13% |   0.00% |
| 123  | Grimmsnarl         |    1 |   0.13% |   0.00% |
| 123  | Arcanine           |    1 |   0.13% |   0.00% |
| 123  | Glaceon            |    1 |   0.13% |   0.00% |
| 123  | Glimmet            |    1 |   0.13% |   0.00% |

 

[Lily]

Just a quick post about the council's views on Quaquaval since it's getting a lot of discussion here; we're not going to do anything just yet, but it's definitely on the radar. This is definitely not to say we're not keeping an eye on Quaquaval, just don't expect an immediate quickban; it is a big threat but we do feel there are adaptations that are being made that make it possibly balanced, so we want to give it a little bit more time to have its sets worked out. Same goes for rain and Iron Leaves, although the latter doesn't seem to be too hot a topic rn.

As an addendum to this, we're doing a council vote on Iron Leaves, Quaquaval and Pelipper. We'll also have a suspect test going up in the coming days.

We're choosing to do things this way because it's pretty clear that multiple courses of action are required (not necessarily that things need to be banned, but they need to be given attention). We are going to vote on all the drops + Scizor - something that was about to be tested before shifts, and is still going to be tested soon - in an effort do to them their due justice. If any get quickbanned, a quickdrop & retest will be in order at our nearest convenience.

 

[eeriespell]

Council vote soon so I'm gonna give my opinions on all the things up for vote!


I think the first talks I heard about this dropping were in February, and everyone I had talked to agreed that, if it did drop, it would likely be problematic. Two months later, here we are, and we were right! I'm honestly sad this thing is as broken as it is, because the options it provides in builder are so cool. Offensive Water that doesn't rely on rain, a spinner, good coverage, unique options for coverage, reliable recovery, etc. The toolbox is huge, and I wish this thing was healthy for the metagame so we could experiment and build with it more, but it's just not. Aqua Step allows you to outpace the entire rest of the metagame at a ridiculous rate and is also essentially just a free DD on kill. Adamant or Life Orb sets can just muscle through Quagsire, Gastrodon and Tatsugiri eat it hard to CC, and most other things with the notable exception of Slowbro die to some sort of coverage. It has Sub, Taunt, Bulk Up, and SD to create a variety of setup options for itself, as well as sets such as 3 attacks + Roost and even some niche Tera Blast options, as well as Band sets featuring U-Turn to pivot out on Slowbro. I have been very vocal about it and my opinion has not changed, this thing needs a ban.


I already made the big long Rain post, and while I don't feel strongly one way or the other about taking action against Rain, I do think that if it's going to happen this is 100% the right way to do it. All of the general rain goobers except Kilowattrel are absolute doggy without Pelipper there to sugar daddy them. If this goes to a suspect I probably wouldn't ladder for it unless I was like, suuuper fucking bored, but if it came down to it I'd probably vote ban just because Rain is super lame. I really just don't feel strongly enough either way to have a defined answer.


Y'all are seeing this in games?? Because I'm not, like, at all. It just seems really mid. Psyblade is base 80 and contact in the tier where Talonflame is king, your coverage is kinda just a bunch of shit you don't need + CC and Wild Charge (which doesn't kill Talon without some setup and is, again, contact), and Quark Drive means that unless you're running booster or have the balls to play a 5v6 and dedicate the teamslot to Pincurchin, you have no ability. I have seen a lot of cool sets people have built for it, like Trailblaze SD, booster Agility, Band, etc., but I just generally find this to be super underwhelming in a tier full of great bugs and birds. Definitely think this is a no ban.


Scizor is completely fine. Band's damage output is a little dumb but unless you maneuver really poorly around it you can usually have a resist ready to go and get it to promptly fuck off, while SD sets can have a very rough time when it comes to looking for setup opportunities and will often end up relying on Tera Fire to not get smoked or burned and rendered useless. The bulls have also been trending and they give it a lot of trouble too when it isn't carrying Aerial Ace, something Scizor usually can't afford. It's definitely very good, but I think this is also a no ban.

 

[Easter Bliss]

Shifts are here so figured I’d leave my thoughts on the new mons in the tier and some stuff I just think are good rn.


Scizor @ Life Orb
Ability: Technician
Tera Type: Fire / Normal / Steel
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Bullet Punch
- Close Combat / Quick Attack
- U-turn / Trailblaze
- Swords Dance
This is getting suspected soon and while I’m not entirely sure whether I’d definitively vote ban or not, it is somewhat of a worrying presence in the tier. I’m fine with Choice Band and I don’t think it’s nearly as problematic as SD so I’ll mostly talk about that set. I think my main concerns with this mon are just the fact that it has so many outs vs its “answers” that you end up needing to stack multiple of them to cover for different Tera options and it just generally ends up being a headache in the builder. For example Talon is sat on by Tera Fire (and takes a million from Tera normal but at least you can fish) so you absolutely cannot rely on it to answer Sciz which ends up mandating the use of secondary checks. The Taurii, Mence, Shocks, Tera’d Foul Play Wo-Chien & Heattom are all pretty decent checks and all great mons in their own rights which is why I do think that there is an argument for it to stay. It isn’t necessarily uncheckable but it’s worrying when none of your checks are actually consistent into it depending on the set and if you rely on one form of counterplay you’re really begging to get swept by one set or another.


I’m not going to bother posting a set for this one because it just has way too many of them. I’m really not sure what my stance is on Quaquaval but overall I don’t really care for it being in the tier. Answering it defensively isn’t the worst thing in the world in my opinion, Slowbro, Tera Fairy Mence, & Scream Tail are all pretty nice options for it. 4MSS is also pretty crippling for it as it often can’t fit in everything it really wants to. Offensively answering this on the otherhand I think is a nightmare and quite frankly stupid half of the time. Aqua Step is just a very silly and evil move and one misstep without a solid defensive option into it can very well just be game. I’m really not as adamant on quickbanning this as many others in the thread have been but I do think a suspect in the near future is definitely warranted.


Iron Leaves @ Booster Energy
Ability: Quark Drive
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 96 HP / 160 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Leaf Blade
- Psyblade
- Tera Blast / Close Combat
- Swords Dance
Iron Leaves I am personally in favour of quickbanning. It’s Tera reliant but the mon you get out of it is really really stupid. Booster Energy more or less eliminates all forms of offensive counterplay barring Aqua Jet from stuff like CB Aqua-Tauros & stuff like Floatzel. Once you get an SD off late-game (which is generally very easy given the natural bulk on this thing) there really isn’t sufficient counterplay. For what it’s worth, Tera’d Foul Play Wo-Chien, a handful of faster scarfers, & the aforementioned forcing Tera into water priority are all pretty decent into it, but I don’t see this sticking around for very long. I understand that quickbanning is a nuclear option and it’s fairly early into the metagame but I do think action will be necessary soon.


I don’t like this being in the tier at all, but at the same time it’s somewhat hard to justify banning when it’s as inconsistent as it is. It’s really just a hard match up fish that demands respect in the builder and I really don’t like it. Quaquaval is also fun a new toy for this. I would really love a ban on this, but I understand if there is not sufficient justification for one.

Now onto some things that we have had in the meta prior to shifts but I think are cool rn


Wo-Chien @ Leftovers
Ability: Tablets of Ruin
Tera Type: Ghost
- Knock Off
- Foul Play
- Leech Seed / Rest
- Protect / Sleep Talk
I mentioned this set a couple times earlier but I think Foul Play is a really good option on the Wo rn. In additions to the positive match ups into the two mons mentioned earlier, it’s also just a generally good tool into DDers, namely Gyarados whose taunt set rn imo is really good. There isn’t really a particular spread I’d go with (at least no optimised one yet), I’ve mostly just gone w/ phys def although I definitely think there is room for improvement in that regard. Anyhow, Foul Play good, use it.


This mon is straight fire. I’ve always been more of a Slowbro believer than most but right now I think he’s indisputably in a really solid spot with the drops. He’s good into rain, he’s good into the duck, a strong answer into DD mons, and has lovely coverage. T-Wave is also a potential option, I’m not sure how much I like it but maybe on some sort of paraspam type of team it has a place. While I usually opt for boots, I do think it’s also a fine Rocky Helmet user which is always nice if you want something strong into the match-up Maus. Overall probably the biggest winner from the tier shifts.


This mon is literal fire, until it becomes a steel type that is. This has seen some more traction lately but just wanted to say that it’s a good mon with some unique perks over its Grass-type counterpart. For one it’s a lot more reliable into Scizor as you aren’t scared of just dropping to U-turn (Tera normal can actually OHKO you at +2 thought if you’re max HP so I’d actually probably be running some bulk rn), it’s also great at abusing Ice Beam Gastrodon, Sandy Shocks (regardless of Tera) and Talonflame which are all very popular picks rn. NP sets are pretty scary and you often get ample opportunities to set up, while I like wisp as a 4th move, sub is also a pretty cool option that can force some really uncomfortable situations for your opp.