Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion

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nice that you had success, but we prob won't be able to use electric terrain viably until we get koko, koko is gonna be fun for OU(is he coming back? I have no idea)
i feel like pincurchin is setup fodder rn, with torkoal you can burn so tusk and dnite have a harder time setting up against you

also the worm gets free shed tail on curchin so like they can get free setup
As far as I know Koko is not coming back with neither HOME nor DLC

And honestly as much as I wanna use Koko + Valiant I think it's for the best that the Tapus stay at the airport this gen. I do hope they give eterrain to a mon that would appreciate it, like Zebstrika for example I saw somewhere :P
 
As far as I know Koko is not coming back with neither HOME nor DLC

And honestly as much as I wanna use Koko + Valiant I think it's for the best that the Tapus stay at the airport this gen. I do hope they give eterrain to a mon that would appreciate it, like Zebstrika for example I saw somewhere :P
Or give it to jolteon instead of quick feet, that ability is so useless on it lmao
 
Toxic orb protect quick feet or focus sash manual electric terrain Jolteon
Speaks on how good Iron valiant is that this idea I just had sounds worth a try
 
Toxic orb protect quick feet or focus sash manual electric terrain Jolteon
Speaks on how good Iron valiant is that this idea I just had sounds worth a try
To be fair, it wasn’t until very recently that doubling the speed of a base 130 Pokémon wasn’t an absurd idea. I’d also run flame orb over toxic orb, less damage over time would matter on a Pokémon that frail
 
Pincurchin is an usable (though hard) Mon, but a fun thing that could be tried is manual Electric Terrain.
Electrode learns the move and can explode, though he is even worse than Pincurhin.
Kilowattrell can U-Turn or Volt Switch out and even kill with Stab the most common ground, but can't abuse the Terrain itself.
Blissey also learns the move, but is momentum sinker.
Dedenne, Jolteon, Pawmot, Sandy Shocks and Rotom are fast electrics but each has some serious disadvantage...

Now, the actual Mons of the post: All future Paradox Mons learn Electric Terrain. Of course, not all of them are equally viable, but some are:
Iron Valiant is better as abusser than as setter, but being a fast offensive breaker it could use Electric Terrain and then Destiny Bond.
Iron Hands is better as abusser too, wouldn't bother here.
Iron Thorn is mediocre Mon in general.
Iron Leaves is better as abusser too.

Last 3 are the actually good (in theory) setters.
Iron Treads is fast and apart from Electric Terrain has Rocks and Spin (and even Volt Switch to pivot out, but never can use it due to Tusk existing).
Iron Moth is even faster and has U-Turn. It's probably better as abusser, but also has Discarge as Electric move.
Lastly, Iron Jugulis. Also a fast Mon and also has U-Turn. Probably the best setter since this Mon unlike Moth doesn't need the coverage too much, just Stabs.

So, structure for something like this would be:
Jugulis
Pex/Amoonguss/Slowking with Eject Button (maybe even Slowking + Guss, since king checks lots of Mons and has Chilly Reception too)
Valiant with some broken set that now has Speed raised. If we have such a complicated set up, it's to abuse this guy to the fullest.
One other Paradox Mon (Moth, Leaves or Hands)
One or 2 filler Mons to cover things and maybe put Rocks. Special mention to Sandy Shocks, since he learns Rocks, likes Terrain and can also funnily abuse opposing Sun. Booster Energy and Rocks + 3 Attacks is probably best set here.


So, it does look hard, but I think there can be Electric Terrain teams with or without Pincurchin and is something to be tried.
 
OPEN TEAM SHEET
So I would like to preface this post by saying,I don't play vgc nor have ever played it and mainly making this post just because I think it could be a fun discussion which could be had and who knows,may become a reality though I can guess what the final answer will be for this topic:zonger:.

WHAT IS OPEN TEAM SHEET?
Open team sheet works basically like the !showteam function on showdown but there is one major difference,it doesn't show the ev's of the pokemon,so essentially when you do open team sheet it shows the tera type,items,movesets and ability of the pokemon's on the team,which obviously works both ways,If your oppo can see all these details except ev's about your team,you can see all the details except ev's of your opponent's team's too.

WHY MAKE THIS POST?
So as most of us know this generation the pokemon company made a semi controversial decision to have open team sheet for vgc,the main idea is to make it as competitive as possible since vgc matches are usually short each turn matters much more and a surprise set could completely flip a game upside down,so open team sheet eliminates that to give the better player a higher winning chance.


So why have it in singles?
It could be interesting! Obviously unless we play with it we cant have an actual idea of how it would be like in singles so we can only guess.
Now obviously we all know pokemon company doesn't care about 6v6 singles at all ,but if it did I think they would def try to implement open team sheet in singles,so why not try it ourselves too?
This idea mainly arose from all the tera preview discussion people keep on having of how some people would much rather prefer to have tera preview so it becomes much less of a guessing game of what tera type a pokemon is and so they can make a better gameplan from preview around it rather than losing to a random tera type,so I thought why not take it a step further and make it so both the ppl know the entirety of each other's teams except the ev's so the entirety of guessing is eliminated and make the matches even more competitive.
Now I obviously know a lot of teambuilding/playing is about creativity in the builder and being able to hide your sets to the perfect time to reveal it which is a 100% fair argument to be made,but the same could of been said for vgc and yet they seem to be doing fantastic with open team sheet,obviously the surprise factor in that matters far more than in singles but the core concept is same,it makes the matches much more competitive and reduces guess work(looking at team structure's,good players can have a pretty decent idea of what type of set each pokemon would have,but even if an extremely educated one, its still a guess).

VERY IMPORTANT NOTE:
In ladder(Assuming would work same as vgc ladder),Open team sheet(OTS) IS OPTIONAL AND REQUIRES BOTH THE PLAYER'S TO AGREE TO DOING IT BEFORE THE MATCH BEGINS ,I made this point majorly just for ppl who would be rightfully opposed to ots,so if you do not wish to have your matches be ots,simply do not agree/ignore it hence making the point of it being a really bad idea not so bad and for people who want it,they both can agree and play like so and in tourney's it can be optional or be stated in rules before hand.


CONCLUSION:
Seeing as how we have played singles for decades now,there shouldn't be much harm in testing it and trying out this change,it may be miserable,may be aight,may be good,we don't know till we have tried it and obviously once again reiterating there is a option to deny open team sheet and requires both the player's to agree to it for it work and hence I don't see much harm in testing it out,single's game are usually long enough to scout hence ots doesnt feel necessary is a fair arguement too but then again no harm in testing and see how it may go.
Now obviously there is an immense amount of discussion which could be had on this topic,which this thread is for,so do it if you wish and I also know most ppl would be seeing this as a clown post and that's aight too considering the topic of this post,if I was someone else I would dismiss this as a clown post too but I really think this could be a interesting thing to try and add some mix to the usual singles we play.
 
How good is Iron Valiant on Electric Terrain? such as the Specs variants?

Aura Sphere doesn't miss but Focus Blast is stronger but with 70% Accuracy.
I like using life orb mixed valiant on eterrain. I feel like specs allows the opponent to go to a middle ground and then pivot around depending on the move you're locked into. Life orb means you can use different attacks in order to take full advantage of the eterrain turns without compromising much on power + the recoil doesnt matter much on valiant anyway since it is so frail regardless.
 
Pincurchin is an usable (though hard) Mon, but a fun thing that could be tried is manual Electric Terrain.
Electrode learns the move and can explode, though he is even worse than Pincurhin.
Kilowattrell can U-Turn or Volt Switch out and even kill with Stab the most common ground, but can't abuse the Terrain itself.
Blissey also learns the move, but is momentum sinker.
Dedenne, Jolteon, Pawmot, Sandy Shocks and Rotom are fast electrics but each has some serious disadvantage...

Now, the actual Mons of the post: All future Paradox Mons learn Electric Terrain. Of course, not all of them are equally viable, but some are:
Iron Valiant is better as abusser than as setter, but being a fast offensive breaker it could use Electric Terrain and then Destiny Bond.
Iron Hands is better as abusser too, wouldn't bother here.
Iron Thorn is mediocre Mon in general.
Iron Leaves is better as abusser too.

Last 3 are the actually good (in theory) setters.
Iron Treads is fast and apart from Electric Terrain has Rocks and Spin (and even Volt Switch to pivot out, but never can use it due to Tusk existing).
Iron Moth is even faster and has U-Turn. It's probably better as abusser, but also has Discarge as Electric move.
Lastly, Iron Jugulis. Also a fast Mon and also has U-Turn. Probably the best setter since this Mon unlike Moth doesn't need the coverage too much, just Stabs.

So, structure for something like this would be:
Jugulis
Pex/Amoonguss/Slowking with Eject Button (maybe even Slowking + Guss, since king checks lots of Mons and has Chilly Reception too)
Valiant with some broken set that now has Speed raised. If we have such a complicated set up, it's to abuse this guy to the fullest.
One other Paradox Mon (Moth, Leaves or Hands)
One or 2 filler Mons to cover things and maybe put Rocks. Special mention to Sandy Shocks, since he learns Rocks, likes Terrain and can also funnily abuse opposing Sun. Booster Energy and Rocks + 3 Attacks is probably best set here.


So, it does look hard, but I think there can be Electric Terrain teams with or without Pincurchin and is something to be tried.
honestly, nice post, I didn't think about Jugulis when I was testing. Might have to try that.
The problem with pincurchin is that it has no way to threaten great tusk or kingambit(unlike torkoal who threatens with will-o-wisp and yawn), the two most popular mons in the meta. Also it's kind of a momentum sinker(like blissey) and I don't think it has a pivot move.
The only thing I could see pincurchin doing is like eject button but no one is going to attack the pincurchin before setting up to the max lol
 
honestly, nice post, I didn't think about Jugulis when I was testing. Might have to try that.
The problem with pincurchin is that it has no way to threaten great tusk or kingambit(unlike torkoal who threatens with will-o-wisp and yawn), the two most popular mons in the meta. Also it's kind of a momentum sinker(like blissey) and I don't think it has a pivot move.
The only thing I could see pincurchin doing is like eject button but no one is going to attack the pincurchin before setting up to the max lol

Pincurchin @ Terrain Extender
Ability: Electric Surge
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hydro Pump / Surf
- Discharge
- Recover
- Spikes



8 SpA Pincurchin Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Great Tusk: 242-286 (55.7 - 65.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
8 SpA Pincurchin Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Great Tusk: 244-288 (65.7 - 77.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
8 SpA Tera Water Pincurchin Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Great Tusk: 366-432 (98.6 - 116.4%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
8 SpA Tera Water Pincurchin Surf vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Great Tusk: 296-350 (79.7 - 94.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO



252 Atk Choice Band Great Tusk Headlong Rush vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tera Water Pincurchin: 220-261 (73.3 - 87%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

I know. Its unreliable, not accurate and competes with many moves for the slot, but still, Tusk is not a free switch in and if you predict and remove it, even if you wasted the Tera on Pinchurchin (who btw has pasable bulk and learns Recover), you just defeated (or worn down if you choose to not Tera) the best OU Mon with your setter.

Kingambit is also not a free switch-in, he doesn,t like para from Discharge (because almost no one likes Para).

Pincurchin has many flaws, but being weak to Tusk is not one of them.
 
As far as I know Koko is not coming back with neither HOME nor DLC

And honestly as much as I wanna use Koko + Valiant I think it's for the best that the Tapus stay at the airport this gen. I do hope they give eterrain to a mon that would appreciate it, like Zebstrika for example I saw somewhere :P


I would say getting Koko back is still possible since none of the legends or mythicals except for new ones would have dex entries anyway, and everything from the datamine already had dex entries.

So Koko still may be coming back.


Regardless, I hope it does return. Also I hope shed tail finally gets the boot, move is so unfun to play against
 
Even if Koko does come back, it's going to find itself in Ubers. Valiant, Hands, Moth, and Jugulus all love getting to actually use an item while also having the Quark Drive boost, and between banning one setter or multiple abusers, the path forward with Electric Terrain would be clear.

For more immediate theorymonning, I've been tinkering with a double Hex team (Skeledirge and Dragapult) featuring Talonflame. In addition to reliably defogging, Wisp and Flame Body combine for a good check to Great Tusk and Kingambit. Even if they just swap out to dodge the Wisp, that's still status on something for the late game Hexers.
 
Also I just realized that on my copy of Scarlet Tinkaton is said to annihilate the local corviknight with it's hammer. However in the meta Tinkaton does nothing to Corviknight unless it has tera electric with swords dance and tera blast lol.
Tinkaton has everything to be a decent mon on OU except from its attack stat. If only it got an item to double its attack like Marowak.
Gholdengo realizing that more viable hazard removal is under way:
Viable is a strong word for a shed tail-less Cyclizar, at least for OU. Yeah, blocks shadow ball but it does to them in return?
 
Even if Koko does come back, it's going to find itself in Ubers. Valiant, Hands, Moth, and Jugulus all love getting to actually use an item while also having the Quark Drive boost, and between banning one setter or multiple abusers, the path forward with Electric Terrain would be clear.

For more immediate theorymonning, I've been tinkering with a double Hex team (Skeledirge and Dragapult) featuring Talonflame. In addition to reliably defogging, Wisp and Flame Body combine for a good check to Great Tusk and Kingambit. Even if they just swap out to dodge the Wisp, that's still status on something for the late game Hexers.

I can see Gholdengo and Gambit loving that so they can clean late game, and glimmora/great tusk is a fantastic partner there
 
Tinkaton has everything to be a decent mon on OU except from its attack stat. If only it got an item to double its attack like Marowak.

Viable is a strong word for a shed tail-less Cyclizar, at least for OU. Yeah, blocks shadow ball but it does to them in return?
If you really need Gholdengo gone in particular, Cyclizar can threaten 0 HP ones with a Knock Off + Overheat 2HKO without need for investment
0 SpA Cyclizar Overheat vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Gholdengo: 176-208 (55.8 - 66%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Cyclizar Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 140-166 (44.4 - 52.6%) -- 20.7% chance to 2HKO

Removing Gholdengo is so massive for the Hazard Game that this is worthy of noting if Cyclizar were around without Shed Tail. Round out the set with Spin + U-Turn maybe.
 
If you really need Gholdengo gone in particular, Cyclizar can threaten 0 HP ones with a Knock Off + Overheat 2HKO without need for investment
0 SpA Cyclizar Overheat vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Gholdengo: 176-208 (55.8 - 66%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Cyclizar Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 140-166 (44.4 - 52.6%) -- 20.7% chance to 2HKO

Removing Gholdengo is so massive for the Hazard Game that this is worthy of noting if Cyclizar were around without Shed Tail. Round out the set with Spin + U-Turn maybe.
Yes, but the main issue with it is that Tusk already can OHKO Gholdengo, fits on more teams and Idk why I'm explaining what Tusk does, Tusk existence makes Cyclizar's niche kinda irrelevant for the tier.
 
OPEN TEAM SHEET
So I would like to preface this post by saying,I don't play vgc nor have ever played it and mainly making this post just because I think it could be a fun discussion which could be had and who knows,may become a reality though I can guess what the final answer will be for this topic:zonger:.

WHAT IS OPEN TEAM SHEET?
Open team sheet works basically like the !showteam function on showdown but there is one major difference,it doesn't show the ev's of the pokemon,so essentially when you do open team sheet it shows the tera type,items,movesets and ability of the pokemon's on the team,which obviously works both ways,If your oppo can see all these details except ev's about your team,you can see all the details except ev's of your opponent's team's too.

WHY MAKE THIS POST?
So as most of us know this generation the pokemon company made a semi controversial decision to have open team sheet for vgc,the main idea is to make it as competitive as possible since vgc matches are usually short each turn matters much more and a surprise set could completely flip a game upside down,so open team sheet eliminates that to give the better player a higher winning chance.


So why have it in singles?
It could be interesting! Obviously unless we play with it we cant have an actual idea of how it would be like in singles so we can only guess.
Now obviously we all know pokemon company doesn't care about 6v6 singles at all ,but if it did I think they would def try to implement open team sheet in singles,so why not try it ourselves too?
This idea mainly arose from all the tera preview discussion people keep on having of how some people would much rather prefer to have tera preview so it becomes much less of a guessing game of what tera type a pokemon is and so they can make a better gameplan from preview around it rather than losing to a random tera type,so I thought why not take it a step further and make it so both the ppl know the entirety of each other's teams except the ev's so the entirety of guessing is eliminated and make the matches even more competitive.
Now I obviously know a lot of teambuilding/playing is about creativity in the builder and being able to hide your sets to the perfect time to reveal it which is a 100% fair argument to be made,but the same could of been said for vgc and yet they seem to be doing fantastic with open team sheet,obviously the surprise factor in that matters far more than in singles but the core concept is same,it makes the matches much more competitive and reduces guess work(looking at team structure's,good players can have a pretty decent idea of what type of set each pokemon would have,but even if an extremely educated one, its still a guess).

VERY IMPORTANT NOTE:
In ladder(Assuming would work same as vgc ladder),Open team sheet(OTS) IS OPTIONAL AND REQUIRES BOTH THE PLAYER'S TO AGREE TO DOING IT BEFORE THE MATCH BEGINS ,I made this point majorly just for ppl who would be rightfully opposed to ots,so if you do not wish to have your matches be ots,simply do not agree/ignore it hence making the point of it being a really bad idea not so bad and for people who want it,they both can agree and play like so and in tourney's it can be optional or be stated in rules before hand.


CONCLUSION:
Seeing as how we have played singles for decades now,there shouldn't be much harm in testing it and trying out this change,it may be miserable,may be aight,may be good,we don't know till we have tried it and obviously once again reiterating there is a option to deny open team sheet and requires both the player's to agree to it for it work and hence I don't see much harm in testing it out,single's game are usually long enough to scout hence ots doesnt feel necessary is a fair arguement too but then again no harm in testing and see how it may go.
Now obviously there is an immense amount of discussion which could be had on this topic,which this thread is for,so do it if you wish and I also know most ppl would be seeing this as a clown post and that's aight too considering the topic of this post,if I was someone else I would dismiss this as a clown post too but I really think this could be a interesting thing to try and add some mix to the usual singles we play.
I agree that open team sheet should be an optional setting on the ladder, if for no other reason than to make it easier to steal and try out various sets & teams that you go up against for yourself. It might also help dealing w/ unpredictability when facing Random Tera types or Choice Scarfers, but I really doubt open team sheet would make a difference against those things because from my exp, most people ignore the open team sheet option on the VGC ladder.
 
OPEN TEAM SHEET
So I would like to preface this post by saying,I don't play vgc nor have ever played it and mainly making this post just because I think it could be a fun discussion which could be had and who knows,may become a reality though I can guess what the final answer will be for this topic:zonger:.

WHAT IS OPEN TEAM SHEET?
Open team sheet works basically like the !showteam function on showdown but there is one major difference,it doesn't show the ev's of the pokemon,so essentially when you do open team sheet it shows the tera type,items,movesets and ability of the pokemon's on the team,which obviously works both ways,If your oppo can see all these details except ev's about your team,you can see all the details except ev's of your opponent's team's too.

WHY MAKE THIS POST?
So as most of us know this generation the pokemon company made a semi controversial decision to have open team sheet for vgc,the main idea is to make it as competitive as possible since vgc matches are usually short each turn matters much more and a surprise set could completely flip a game upside down,so open team sheet eliminates that to give the better player a higher winning chance.


So why have it in singles?
It could be interesting! Obviously unless we play with it we cant have an actual idea of how it would be like in singles so we can only guess.
Now obviously we all know pokemon company doesn't care about 6v6 singles at all ,but if it did I think they would def try to implement open team sheet in singles,so why not try it ourselves too?
This idea mainly arose from all the tera preview discussion people keep on having of how some people would much rather prefer to have tera preview so it becomes much less of a guessing game of what tera type a pokemon is and so they can make a better gameplan from preview around it rather than losing to a random tera type,so I thought why not take it a step further and make it so both the ppl know the entirety of each other's teams except the ev's so the entirety of guessing is eliminated and make the matches even more competitive.
Now I obviously know a lot of teambuilding/playing is about creativity in the builder and being able to hide your sets to the perfect time to reveal it which is a 100% fair argument to be made,but the same could of been said for vgc and yet they seem to be doing fantastic with open team sheet,obviously the surprise factor in that matters far more than in singles but the core concept is same,it makes the matches much more competitive and reduces guess work(looking at team structure's,good players can have a pretty decent idea of what type of set each pokemon would have,but even if an extremely educated one, its still a guess).

VERY IMPORTANT NOTE:
In ladder(Assuming would work same as vgc ladder),Open team sheet(OTS) IS OPTIONAL AND REQUIRES BOTH THE PLAYER'S TO AGREE TO DOING IT BEFORE THE MATCH BEGINS ,I made this point majorly just for ppl who would be rightfully opposed to ots,so if you do not wish to have your matches be ots,simply do not agree/ignore it hence making the point of it being a really bad idea not so bad and for people who want it,they both can agree and play like so and in tourney's it can be optional or be stated in rules before hand.


CONCLUSION:
Seeing as how we have played singles for decades now,there shouldn't be much harm in testing it and trying out this change,it may be miserable,may be aight,may be good,we don't know till we have tried it and obviously once again reiterating there is a option to deny open team sheet and requires both the player's to agree to it for it work and hence I don't see much harm in testing it out,single's game are usually long enough to scout hence ots doesnt feel necessary is a fair arguement too but then again no harm in testing and see how it may go.
Now obviously there is an immense amount of discussion which could be had on this topic,which this thread is for,so do it if you wish and I also know most ppl would be seeing this as a clown post and that's aight too considering the topic of this post,if I was someone else I would dismiss this as a clown post too but I really think this could be a interesting thing to try and add some mix to the usual singles we play.

You can quite literally, already do this.
I don't see any need to introduce OTS when a gentleman's agreement to !showteam can just be done.
It not hiding the EV's is quite frankly the least important part of any set, you'll be able to guess 90% of pokemon's EV's based off of moves and items alone.

Pokemon, wether it's been in singles or doubles has historically been a game of information gathering, OTS entirely removes this element as a poor man's solution to an unrestricted metagame with Tera. Frankly the "we can't know until we try" is not true at all, ask your opponents on the ladder if they'd like to agree to an open sheet match, I can guarantee you 90% won't want to.
 
Yes, but the main issue with it is that Tusk already can OHKO Gholdengo, fits on more teams and Idk why I'm explaining what Tusk does, Tusk existence makes Cyclizar's niche kinda irrelevant for the tier.
well its other niche is its huge base speed and the ghost immunity, being a spinner that dragapult cant block and also able to kill gholdengo. (switching in on draga is ONLY possible if its a choice locked shadow ball, but honestly pretty much every dragapult runs specs anyways so its not a huuuuge issue? if anything, being able to outspeed hisuian zoroark and pop a knock off to remove their specs is also nice for your own shadow ball spammer)
pairing that alongside the whole regenerator pivot shenanigans it likes to pull throughout a match, its super diverse and colorful movepool..
i'm not here to say cycl will be good, but those are still really valuable for the meta! i think its at the very least worth giving a shot, and if it sucks, it sucks.
 
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Yes, but the main issue with it is that Tusk already can OHKO Gholdengo, fits on more teams and Idk why I'm explaining what Tusk does, Tusk existence makes Cyclizar's niche kinda irrelevant for the tier.

Cyclizar is a spinner with recovery that can come in multiple times and pivot.
Also Tusk's only recovery is leftovers and the odd resto chesto.
Tusk needs it's health to check multiple threats. Cyclizar frees up a slot on Tusk and provides pivot support to help get Tusk in.
 
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