Can't Wait....
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion
- Thread starter TPP
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I'm expecting a ton of 4s and 5s in the survey if the council is already voting on it
And if shed gets banned that means Cyclizar returns right Finch?
I just wish Cyclizar was a tiny bit faster. It falls just below so many of our other Speedsters like Meowscarada, Greninja, and (Modest) Dragapult. Being able to outspeed those would let it put a lot more pressure on the mons its utility is good against (U-Turn threatening Lead Meowscarada aiming for Tusk, forcing Drag back to Timid/Jolly to cut its power) even without the Scarf set it runs in Ubers.
honestly true.. but if tornadus t can make it work, cycl will manage! ..maybe. hopefully.
UU or RU would love torn-t lite- I mean Cyclizar I am sure!
the rare choice scarf fixing that
This is never gonna happen in Smogon but it's a fun discussion regardless so I'll chime in.OPEN TEAM SHEET
So I would like to preface this post by saying,I don't play vgc nor have ever played it and mainly making this post just because I think it could be a fun discussion which could be had and who knows,may become a reality though I can guess what the final answer will be for this topic.
WHAT IS OPEN TEAM SHEET?
Open team sheet works basically like the !showteam function on showdown but there is one major difference,it doesn't show the ev's of the pokemon,so essentially when you do open team sheet it shows the tera type,items,movesets and ability of the pokemon's on the team,which obviously works both ways,If your oppo can see all these details except ev's about your team,you can see all the details except ev's of your opponent's team's too.
WHY MAKE THIS POST?
So as most of us know this generation the pokemon company made a semi controversial decision to have open team sheet for vgc,the main idea is to make it as competitive as possible since vgc matches are usually short each turn matters much more and a surprise set could completely flip a game upside down,so open team sheet eliminates that to give the better player a higher winning chance.
So why have it in singles?
It could be interesting! Obviously unless we play with it we cant have an actual idea of how it would be like in singles so we can only guess.
Now obviously we all know pokemon company doesn't care about 6v6 singles at all ,but if it did I think they would def try to implement open team sheet in singles,so why not try it ourselves too?
This idea mainly arose from all the tera preview discussion people keep on having of how some people would much rather prefer to have tera preview so it becomes much less of a guessing game of what tera type a pokemon is and so they can make a better gameplan from preview around it rather than losing to a random tera type,so I thought why not take it a step further and make it so both the ppl know the entirety of each other's teams except the ev's so the entirety of guessing is eliminated and make the matches even more competitive.
Now I obviously know a lot of teambuilding/playing is about creativity in the builder and being able to hide your sets to the perfect time to reveal it which is a 100% fair argument to be made,but the same could of been said for vgc and yet they seem to be doing fantastic with open team sheet,obviously the surprise factor in that matters far more than in singles but the core concept is same,it makes the matches much more competitive and reduces guess work(looking at team structure's,good players can have a pretty decent idea of what type of set each pokemon would have,but even if an extremely educated one, its still a guess).
VERY IMPORTANT NOTE:
In ladder(Assuming would work same as vgc ladder),Open team sheet(OTS) IS OPTIONAL AND REQUIRES BOTH THE PLAYER'S TO AGREE TO DOING IT BEFORE THE MATCH BEGINS ,I made this point majorly just for ppl who would be rightfully opposed to ots,so if you do not wish to have your matches be ots,simply do not agree/ignore it hence making the point of it being a really bad idea not so bad and for people who want it,they both can agree and play like so and in tourney's it can be optional or be stated in rules before hand.
CONCLUSION:
Seeing as how we have played singles for decades now,there shouldn't be much harm in testing it and trying out this change,it may be miserable,may be aight,may be good,we don't know till we have tried it and obviously once again reiterating there is a option to deny open team sheet and requires both the player's to agree to it for it work and hence I don't see much harm in testing it out,single's game are usually long enough to scout hence ots doesnt feel necessary is a fair arguement too but then again no harm in testing and see how it may go.
Now obviously there is an immense amount of discussion which could be had on this topic,which this thread is for,so do it if you wish and I also know most ppl would be seeing this as a clown post and that's aight too considering the topic of this post,if I was someone else I would dismiss this as a clown post too but I really think this could be a interesting thing to try and add some mix to the usual singles we play.
Personally I really do not like OTS, one of the many factors that makes competitive pokemon what it is (and fun for me) is the information gathering by playing in the battle. OTS removes this element which I am just not a fan of. In pretty much all Smogon tournament formats your teams aren't locked so you have to gather information about your opponent's team while playing as they do the same. OTS just removes the need to use different teams in between sets or rounds unless trying to fish. Creativity in the builder paying off in a battle is one of the most gratifying things in Pokemon in my opinion.
That being said OTS was kinda necessary in VGC, given the nature of that format. Double battles inherently have more variance and each turn has major impacts on the battle. Also, their teams are locked throughout the tournament so Closed team sheet only rewards players who scout teams irl and so is influenced by a factor outside the game. These characteristics are entirely absent on Smogon formats so I really think OTS would detract from the metagame rather than adding to it.
Besides, as a previous replier mentioned one can easily do this with !showteam although EVs aren't hidden there, but I doubt most people would agree to a !showteam at the start of the battle anyway.
Ngl, it'll be interesting to see if Cyclizar could be a legit OU mon without ST. Good speed, excellent HA, a nice set of utility moves, looking forward to it.
Question: If Shed Tail is banned, how long can we use this Move until it's no more possible?
It's usually implemented within the day it's announced officially (that's how it's been in the past)
its no doubt gonna be at least a uu mon, and an amazing one at that!
it'll be the third fastest mon in the tier baseline iirc, with only talonflame and noivern outspeeding at 126 and 123 respectively. (unless you count weavile and kilowattrel ig, but they're not technically uu. and they're kinda niche.)
this already means it'll be the best rapid spinner by a long shot, the only other relevant ones are quaquaval and donphan. theres also toedscruel, tsareena, and brambleghast.. but i think they've kinda fallen out of use, except for maybe brambleghast with a spikes lead. and donphan is super reliant on its item for passive recovery, or its assault vest and quaquaval really doesnt run spin all that much, to my knowledge. and absolutely none of them have the same nutty movepool that cyclizar has, with a combination of knock off, u turn, rapid spin, and taunt. it doesnt have to use a move for recovery or even run leftovers, it can just switch out. meaning you can use boots, maybe a life orb to power up draco meteor against weakened targets, etcetera.
really the biggest competition is gonna be noivern, its faster and will ruin your day with draco meteor. but chances are, noivern cant exactly switch into a draco comfortably after you get one rapid spin boost.
0 SpA Cyclizar Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Noivern: 152-182 (95 - 113.7%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
timid cyclizar as shown above can still deal a ton of damage, so its not the craziest thing to imagine. combine that with so much coverage, in ice, steel, water, dark, fire, and electric!
tldr; lizard goes hard, ngl
Yeah, we will never know until we test it, I'm just saying that I don't have much hopes for it to stay in OU, especially for the people saying it would be like Torn when it lacks the stats Torn have.
Yes, Tusk lack of good recovery is an issue, but even not defensive sets run rapid spin because it is a good move for Tusk, while even if Cyzlizar has regen its low bulk will make it hard to get it into the field unless you predict right the ghost move.
OTS was implemented on VGC because currently SV don't have the locked team feauture for tournaments so the players could modify thier teams between rounds. Basically that was included to prevent cheating, not to help the players giving info about their rivals, however the VGC players liked that format since it prevents scouting like others have mentioned.
So these two mons I wanted too expand upon, because I think they actually have some ability to utilize the manual route for electric terrain.
While electrode is not a good mon, with the release of HOME coming up, the Hisuian form is in many ways better at using this strategy. With access to both Chloroblast and Leaf Storm, it has amazing STAB that hits great tusk and OHKO's many (but not all) variants. It can pivot with Volt Switch, and can additionally use moves like Taunt and Foul Play. As a terrain setter, it has terrible bulk and will be one shot by many common threats, but with it's speed it can threaten mons out like Tusk to set up the terrain, or use Taunt to set up on more passive mons and get up the terrain.
Iron Hands is the opposite. This mon has some amazing customizable potential with a beefy hp stat but bad speed. I agree that it is better as an offensive mon than defensive, however it has a surprising number of moves that a defensive variant could actual use in tandem with an electric terrain set. Fake Out and Whirlwind can be used in conjunction with hazards for chip. Volt switch for slow pivots. But what I find neat is how you can manipulate its stats for different boosts. if you want to use its amazing 140 Base attack to Drain Punch off some damage, that's not bad. Interestingly (and an extreme example) is that if you opt to not invest in attack and run 0 attack Iv's (with an impish nature), you need at minimum 32 evs in defense to boost defense instead of the attack stat. Hands has access to moves like Seismic Toss and Body Press so it doesn't actually need to use that attack stat and can even sponge burns and intimidates. While I don't know how best to optimize this idea, the fact that you can run Hands for a purely defensive role seems interesting.
Reminder that this isn’t a popularity contest between Cyclizar without shed tail and Orthworm with shed tail. We are not voting to unban Cyclizar. We are voting on whether or not shed tail on Orthworm (the only currently legal mon with the move) is fair or in need of a ban in OU.
Yes the council is voting on whether shed tail is competitive or busted and uncompetitive. And no they aren't banning orthworm this ban will be for the move itself, and due to cyclizar not being able to use it it would immediately drop to OU since shed tail broke it in the first place.
They are voting on whether the move is broken or not not the pokemon itself is my point, since orthworm has proven the move itself to be the problem in this case.
Yes, they are voting on whether or not the move is broken, but the point is only two Pokemon have the move. One clearly breaks it due to a multitude of factors outside of just the move in a vacuum. Regenerator being the biggest factor. So while yes, we are talking about banning a move, moves exist on Pokemon, and currently only one. So the question is does that move make that Pokemon (Orthworm) problematic?
If finch is asking this on twitter, it seems a verdict has been reached...
If this is the new reasoning for banning moves and abilities I’m looking forward to unbanning G-Darm after Gorilla Tactics is banned!
Pretty sure this is a joke that's related to the result but not how the verdict was reached.
On a different note, I've been thinking about dumb ideas for Hisuian Electrode since it was brought up in the ET Manual setting topic. I don't expect them to be viable but something kind of funny that I thought of was SubSeed given its ridiculous speed and Soundproof to block Torch Song (or if any other Sound Moves get run on Heat sets or something) circumventing the Subs. Lower HP has its perks with % based stuff like this, some Pokemon almost giving enough for a new Sub off one Seed drain. If this thing had a way to do... literally anything to other Grass Types, I could see some potential for ruining days on Low Ladder by spreading Paralysis, draining HP, and leaving with Chloroblast/Volt Switch after annoying enough things.
Please let something productive happen for OU, this is what I'm reduced to thinking about.
Shed tail is more of a baton pass type case probably, with the move as a whole being unhealthy, thus why the council voted on it.
There was some discussions a few pages back about Jolteon and it's potential as a manual electric terrain setter. I tried it out and it's way too inconsistent for my liking, but maybe Jolt can work as a fast support Mon
I tried out some variants with Focus Sash and a mix of Wish, Volt Switch, T Wave, Yawn and even some niche stuff like Charm. I think it can do some things, like it's speed stat is great, electric immunity too and it can spread para really well. I just can't find good synergies or spots in teams for it.
What do more experienced players think about this?
I tried out some variants with Focus Sash and a mix of Wish, Volt Switch, T Wave, Yawn and even some niche stuff like Charm. I think it can do some things, like it's speed stat is great, electric immunity too and it can spread para really well. I just can't find good synergies or spots in teams for it.
What do more experienced players think about this?
(Im in phone so sorry for ass grammar)
The diference in Gdarm and shit tail is that gdarm is 1 mon, and its abilitys (right now) are only applaied to him
Shed tail has 2 mons, ans then there will be 3 with smeargle, the meta has seen enough shed tail offense in ladder, OST, Stours, spring seasonals, SPL, etc. Orthworm has its uses, but Shed tail IS THE THING that makes orth what it is
And yes, Smeargle with Shed Tail doesnt sound too broken on paper, but its fucking Smeargle, these people WILL MAKE it work
I'm sure 99% Smeargle will be a better shed tail abuser than Orth. I still have my doubts about shed tail being broken since Orth is just really bad, but at the moment Smeargle touches the game there is no way to justify not banning it.
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