Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion

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I've spoken to a lot of high level competitive players about their opinion in regards to tera and not to sway anything any way I would say that a majority of them are fine with fully banning tera, that's not true with everyone but that's just what I've noticed. I voted full ban on Tera in the first suspect test and I probably plan on doing the same when and if in the future there is another Tera Suspect test.

my opinion: if a tera test was to happen today most likely it will lean towards a type of restriction (that's my best guess)
 
Chien-Pao was not obviously broken outside of Tera. Being able to Tera is what allowed it to beat most of its counterplay, termnal. This is backed up by Chien-Pao having the lowest ban percentage of mons banned through a suspect test in Gen 9 OU. Without Tera, Chien-Pao isn't a straight upgrade over Weavile since Triple Axel is stronger than Chien-Pao's Ice STAB even accounting for Sword of Ruin, Knock Off was extremely useful, and Weavile had better special bulk than Chien-Pao, making it a better check to Dragapult.
That is entirely valid I didn't really play as seriously until after chien was banned cause I was playing lower tiers. I still think my point makes sense but thank you for correcting me on chien-pao
 
Chien-Pao was not obviously broken outside of Tera. Being able to Tera is what allowed it to beat most of its counterplay, termnal. This is backed up by Chien-Pao having the lowest ban percentage of mons banned through a suspect test in Gen 9 OU. Without Tera, Chien-Pao isn't a straight upgrade over Weavile since Triple Axel is stronger than Chien-Pao's Ice STAB even accounting for Sword of Ruin, Knock Off was extremely useful, and Weavile had better special bulk than Chien-Pao, making it a better check to Dragapult.
This opinion doesnt work for me, BROTHER (also on phone so sorry if bad grammar)

I dissagree because its abiltiy its an attack boost that no unawere pokemon can ignore, even with no tera, you could still pound Dondozo hard. Knock Off sure its cool but its just a well adjusted utility. Triple axel and icicle crash are both dog shit moves that have missed me so many games that my weaviles have either hone claws or wide glasses just for this garbage, and the special defense its niche at best, dragapult still does a ton on the switch and he is not staying in anyway, and besides, if it is for pure utility options, chien pao has haze and recover

I hate stall, but im not crazy enough to let this thing back. And i hope he never comes back
 
In fairness to this point, when HOME drops the tier will quickly become the Flying type apocalypse as 11 new Flying types will be in the tier (with some bad ones of course), 15 if you count the genie forms. And if you add levitators into the mix, you also got the Gen 4 Psychic Trio.

To not make this a one liner, I'm curious what people think of the new and improved Lake Guardians and their viability in the tier when HOME releases. With their new Signature Move Mystical Power, it will act as a base 70 Charge beam that always boosts Special attack. They retained their access to great support moves like SR and Taunt, as well as U-turn. In previous generations this didn't quite cut it, but given how common Great Tusk is as a lead, I could easily see one of them being OU viable as a SR Lead against Tusk.
Uxie might have a legit niche on OU within Trick room teams as a setter, Ursaluna under trick room in paper eats other offense teams easily.
 
If the next suspect is a binary question, I think it should be a Restriction/No restriction question, not a ban question.

Because a question on the ban risks ending up on "non ban", therefore leaving the Téra unchanged. Indeed, a lot of people will only want a restriction and not a ban, so they risk voting "no ban".

A suspect on a restriction will ensure the blow and lead to a restriction to Tera for sure.
 
Chien-Pao was not obviously broken outside of Tera. Being able to Tera is what allowed it to beat most of its counterplay, termnal. This is backed up by Chien-Pao having the lowest ban percentage of mons banned through a suspect test in Gen 9 OU. Without Tera, Chien-Pao isn't a straight upgrade over Weavile since Triple Axel is stronger than Chien-Pao's Ice STAB even accounting for Sword of Ruin, Knock Off was extremely useful, and Weavile had better special bulk than Chien-Pao, making it a better check to Dragapult.

I'm probably getting trolled here but but it's been the only mon banned via a suspect test in (regular) SV OU. I would agree that Pao is the biggest edge case out of all of the mons that have been banned though (the only other arguable ones are maybe Espathra and Annihilape really, and those are pretty big maybes)
 
I'm probably getting trolled here but but it's been the only mon banned via a suspect test in (regular) SV OU. I would agree that Pao is the biggest edge case out of all of the mons that have been banned though (the only other arguable ones are maybe Espathra and Annihilape really, and those are pretty big maybes)
Bulk up+taunt Ape still destroys defensive teams so I doubt it would be unbanned without tera since offense already had a great match up against it.
 
Hi all, kinda new to the middle ranks of OU. Currently on the fence about Tera being banned or not. On one hand, it's a unique mechanic that allows for realization of some sets players can only dream of. On the other hand, it also allows for some really difficult matchups to occur, such as Fairy Skeledirge, and every Garganacl set in existence. I'm leaning towards a ban as I type this, though.
 
didn't the previous vote use ranked choice which means that isn't true
There's multiple people who posted that their preference was Tera Preview > No Action > Ban, but they voted No Action because the Pro-Ban crowd on the forums were a very vocal minority, and they believed that Ban would be the preferred action.

Then it turns out that, based on the actual votes, it was something like 80% in favor of Tera Preview.
 
Hi all, kinda new to the middle ranks of OU. Currently on the fence about Tera being banned or not. On one hand, it's a unique mechanic that allows for realization of some sets players can only dream of. On the other hand, it also allows for some really difficult matchups to occur, such as Fairy Skeledirge, and every Garganacl set in existence. I'm leaning towards a ban as I type this, though.

Garg tera isn't really a big deal for a well prepared team. Funnily enough I used to see tera water garg which auto loses to opposing garg. But they definitely flip matchups on their head such as dragapult which would typically beat both garg and Skeledirge. As per my post on the previous page I can't think of any defensive tera that's broken since they're only a single type, which gives you a bit of flexibility in countering it. The problem with it is stab tera that's giving unnatural power to wall breakers where even good positioning and a type advantage can't stop them from blowing through a team
 
Screenshot 2023-04-21 10.38.16 PM.png

These survey results are insane, like wow. No wonder why the council immediately acted when they saw these results. My god the support was massive. Again to the council, THANK YOU for banishing this move, it was so cheap and uncompetitive, yet unfair at the same time.
 
I wonder how the results are gonna change, It would be cool to have another survey on the last day to keep it as a statistical and stuff, and even adding some subjective questions like favorite mon, the best mon and stuff. Now I'm not a math guy, in fact, I'm actually poor at it, so if you see that my opinion is too dumb, this time is not because I want to, but because I don't know better

:Volcarona: got a 3, which retains the consensus that has been so cheese forever that people just don't give a shit anymore

:Kingambit: got also a 3, and the consensus seem more spread? Like, 3, but you can see people have almost the same amount of opinions and stuff, I think people are not too sure on what to do with this thing

:Garganacl: I find this rather insulting, and very much salt inducing, but as always, the only thing to do now is march forward, that fat balance/stall team is knocking on heaven's door, but heaven in reality is the new crossover between Walmart and Home Depot, there's 10 TF2 F2P gibus engineers and level 3s all paired together on the entrance

and on shed tail yeah you don't even need eyes to see that it's broken lmao
 
I wonder how the results are gonna change, It would be cool to have another survey on the last day to keep it as a statistical and stuff, and even adding some subjective questions like favorite mon, the best mon and stuff. Now I'm not a math guy, in fact, I'm actually poor at it, so if you see that my opinion is too dumb, this time is not because I want to, but because I don't know better

:Volcarona: got a 3, which retains the consensus that has been so cheese forever that people just don't give a shit anymore

:Kingambit: got also a 3, and the consensus seem more spread? Like, 3, but you can see people have almost the same amount of opinions and stuff, I think people are not too sure on what to do with this thing

:Garganacl: I find this rather insulting, and very much salt inducing, but as always, the only thing to do now is march forward, that fat balance/stall team is knocking on heaven's door, but heaven in reality is the new crossover between Walmart and Home Depot, there's 10 TF2 F2P gibus engineers and level 3s all paired together on the entrance

and on shed tail yeah you don't even need eyes to see that it's broken lmao

Garganacl is not actually broken, just put Covert Cloak gg. lmao
 
Think Volc and Gambit averaged around 3's because people might want to preserve the mons but ban Tera. Taking immediate action against something that is problematic due to some unknown cause (the mons or Tera) would be a mistake.

That said, getting a 3 means they should be on the radar
 
I think at this point, Tera is worth re-examining at least. Personally I want it allowed but with Tera type preview. I know it's not gonna be touched until Home drops, but since the release date is so vague that it seems like we're already past it I feel like I kinda have to just sit on my thoughts.
 
I think starting from the next SV OU survey [personally] (whenever that is) there needs to be a "On a scale from 1-5, how do you feel about Terastallization?" because it's obviously on people's minds and I honestly don't think anything will make the cut prior to HOME release for a suspect test, so it's best to gather opinions in preparation from HOME so we understand the voting differences before and after HOME. I currently think the meta aside from issues I have with tera is in a very good place, nothing seems overwhelming I think everything in the top 15 has solid counters.

I have a prediction that I think for Aprils usage (when that gets released), Tusk will be touching 60% usage.
 
Regarding a restriction of Tera, I also add that even if Tera Preview is essential, it will obviously not be enough, because there will still be too many 50/50 on each Pokémon that you will face.
I think that it will be necessary to directly introduce the Restriction "Limit the Tera to a single Pokémon while making it visible" without going through the box "Tera Preview only", because it is a big waste of time if we proceed in 2 steps . This will strongly and directly limit the 50/50 in addition.

This will be more than enough, but if that is not enough, then we will have to face the facts: Tera is broken. And the second step will have to be more radical: the ban. Tera should not become the new Baton Pass, which had 10,000 useless restrictions before the final ban. In addition, Only STAB and No STAB Tera are ridiculous complex bans that impoverish the mechanic and make it less rich (especially Only STAB). So might as well finish the beast at this stage.

Regarding Tera Blast, as it is an independent move and not an integral part of the mechanic, it can be suspect/banned without it being considered a complex Tera ban.
 
This tier is kinda hard to build sometimes
a rant disguised as an essay by one of the best worst players in the metagame

I stole this formatting from the AAA forums and the :insertmon: spam going popular
So, as a personal opinion, gen 9 is fun, it's balanced, it has a lot of creativity thanks to tera, and it rewards interesting building and all fun all flowers and rainbows, but sometimes, things just don't go well, and It's not just me, some people often find themselves in this position, so I'm gonna take the anger of everybody and transform it into a shit post. So let's see some of the reasons why your "next heat team that's gonna change the meta entirely" falls flatter than a bowl of piss. I won't go into too much detail (so that people who don't have these problems don't call me a whiny little bitch) and these problems are in no particular order, so feel free to expand in whatever really

Chapter 1: Why do I always have 3 weak to Iron Valiant mons


The metagame is filled with Fighting types, Dragon types and Dark types. And for good reason, resist from these mons are scarce, meaning that they can do whatever they want, UNTIL :Iron Valiant: gets in, and then, you just take the L. :Iron Valiant: is so valuable right now because it's the best offensive fairy type in the tier right now, and while its defenses are poor, a quad resistance to dark and a dragon immunity always gets her some spots. And thanks to the large variety of sets it's running, one turn could very well mean the end of you, especially is that is either the specs set, or a booster set and the guy is playing 10D chess. :Azumarill: and :Hatterene: also deserve some special mentions, the former is nowadays a :Walking wake: counter that's more than able to pull her own into a game. The latter is either a HO para supporter or a Stall + Sun Breaker with Calm Mind. But both are threatening and valuable for their niches.

Chapter 2: Phanto(Me)

Once upon a time, GF decided to made Gen 8, the gen in game sucked, the gen in comp sucked, and everyone died, the end. But let's get to the point, ⁣:Dragapult: :Skeledirge: :Gholdengo: and :Zoroark-Hisui: are the 4 available ghost types in this meta (if not counting tera) and these 4 post always a big problem, why? Because ghost is free, shadow ball and/or hex. :Gholdengo: can stall and wall break, ⁣:Skeledirge: can wall break and wall, :Zoroark-Hisui: can wall break and :Dragapult: does the 5 at the same time, and the 4 have additional tools to make them harder to check alone, ⁣:Dragapult: has 4000 sets, ⁣:Skeledirge: has W-o-W, a Sound Move and recovery, ⁣:Gholdengo: has pure damage, recover, a boosting move and a broken ability, and :Zoroark-Hisui: has a good move pool, types and its ability combines well with the meta. So you basically need to account for them in some fashion

Chapter 3: THE ONE PIECE, THE ONE PIECE IS REAL

:Kingambit: :Hydreigon: :Roaring Moon: :Ting Lu: :Meowscarada: :Greninja: and :Garganacl: are our ghost resistance available, from these, ⁣:Garganacl: is not a dark type, and he has its own chapter don't worry. :Greninja: and :Meowscarada: are frail, ⁣ :hydreigon: :roaring moon: while different in move pool and functionality, the nasty weakness to fairy doesn't help a lot. :Ting Lu: is a momentum sinker and can't really damage the mon. And that leaves us with :Kingambit: even tho quad neutral to fighting is bad, that has never stopped :Tyranitar: for success, and with a neutrality to fairy, great damage, enough bulk and priority, makes it a very anti-Bullshit mon, that gets slotted into a lot because fuck man, what are you supposed to do really. He really does everything, from sweep to wall break to come back to anything. It has become a necessary evil in order to keep the phantoms out of the fucking S tier. To the point where people have become too paranoid of this thing, max speed on defensive :rotom-wash: and :skeledirge:? Really?

Chapter 4: Mom would be sad if she saw the flying type pool in gen 9

Dexit + low defoggers means that our flying types in OU are LITERALLY :Dragonite: and :Corviknight:, if we count OU tier and not UUBL and lower, we literally have as many viable birds as FUCKING GEN 2. AND FROM THESE 2 :DRAGONITE: DOESN'T EVEN USE FLYING MOVES UNLESS FOR SPECIFICALLY TROLLING :GREAT TUSK:. WHICH MEANS THAT IN REALITY, WE HAVE AS MANY VIABLE FLYING TYPES AS GEN 1. And that means we have to go to UU for the flying types, ⁣:staraptor: is HO only buts it's fun. :Talonflame: is defensive oriented but its actually a better defogger thanks to :Gholdengo:. :pelipper: is rain, and let's be real for a sec rain is a gimmick (fun fact: tera fairy :Toxicroak: blanks both :Walking Wake: stabs, and It's overall decent in this meta) and :Iron Jugulis: which is a stall breaker (I haven't used it really) but he really is one of the mons of all time. Lack of defoggers and ground immunity means that sometimes your role compression can be easily fucked if :Great Tusk: predicts and Knocks Off your item.

Chapter 5: Garganacl (yep, we're doing this again)

I have already done a big ass post regarding this thing that keeps on creating 1000 new cheese sets per day, and to be honest, I'm getting too tired (I'm writing this while allergic, and it's 11:PM) but to keep it short, the "just put covert cloak" is one of the most short-sighted answers I have seen in this metagame. It stops momentum of any offensive mon that is not Grass, Ground or Fighting, and that can even fail if he teras. I know its never gonna get banned, but Andviet gave up, and I haven't seen YnotMence here in ages, so somebody has to keep the flame burning

Conclusion

These are just some of the common constricts I have found myself having in this metagame, some may agree, some may add more, some may disagree and get things off the list. But luckily, the player base has found ways to create wonderful teams even when all of these stuff is involved, so let's have a toast for everyone who uses the resources well, because you my friend are gonna be the one that conquers the world at the end of the day. If you wanna expand on something in particular, add or critique, do it, just give me likes. I'm going to bed now, I'm too tired (and feeling really sick)

This is an incredibly good post and I've been linking it in OU chat and sending it to friends periodically over the past 2 days.
My post about how building is a pain wasn't 1/8th as thought out or clear as this one so thank you for putting some of my frustrations into words.

Essentially, it feels like the mons we have do this awkward little dance with each other and leads to stale exchanges in battle.

Building feel more paint-by-numbers than I've ever experienced in my life.
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(This part has nothing to do with your post but if you want to give feedback feel free; you seem to have a grasp of some of the harder to understand aspects of this weird meta)

This is not a post about trying to get tera banned- this is a post about how I feel about the state of the meta.


I can't put it into words but tera makes this meta more restricting in a lot of ways when it comes to building and battling.
Or not restricting exactly, it's more like a pointless, or powerless feeling?

If I have X mon and opp has Y mon that lets Bax set up for free I could gain momentum by going Bax.
If my opp predicts my Bax and sends in Val, they should have momentum.
For that turn, they played better than me and deserve the momentum they now have.
However, thanks to tera, I can literally steal, not earn, but steal momentum by tera Poison on the Moon/CC and dance up.

Players are getting punished for the correct plays in this meta.

Momentum is getting stolen, not earned.


Not only that, but I had no fear of getting predicted.

If they don't predict right I get a dragon dance, if they do, I tera and get a dragon dance.

This literally brings the game down a level, instead of adding anything. This is what I mean by tera feels restricting.
My opp was restricted- they literally could not stop my 145attack mon from getting +1 in speed and attack.

Was the Val supposed to tera ground?
Was the mon that lets Bax set up for free supposed to tera and somehow handle Bax now?

Ik what some players, or, some forum posters will say: "Send in a mon that can handle Bax with a defensive tera."

Ok so they send, lets say a def tusk and tera water and kill Bax, all good right? Fun and fair meta?

Well, fuck no, actually, cuz now that Tusk no longer resists gambit I just KO it later that game and win.

That was actually my plan the entire time- and I won the game simply by putting things in +1 Bax range (not hard), getting in Bax, even in front of a Val, and forcing Tusk to tera Water for my late-game gambit win.

Or whatever. This is just a small example but you can take this exchange as a math formula or an algorithm.

If X checks Y but Y can tera into Y(2) to check X then X is sacked or switched into Z which can handle Y(2) with a tera but now Z is Z(2) which now losses to B that Z would check but no longer does because it's now Z(2)

I'll plug in the mons I listed just to help people out.

If (Val) checks (Bax) but (Bax) can tera into (Bax-Psn) to check (Val) then (Val) is sacked or switched into (Tusk) which can handle (Bax-psn) with a tera but now (Tusk) is (Tusk-water) which now losses to (King) that it (Tusk) would check but no longer does because it's now (Tusk-water)

Or even a simpler way: How many times has a Dragonite turned normal so u can now kill it with body press from Tusk?
Just imagine that scenario at a higher level.
I play better and get a Val in vs a Nite, they STEAL momentum by tera normal and killing, but I STEAL it back now thanks to def Tusk.
That's the best case scenario and a frequent occurrence in this meta: get your momentum stolen but steal it back.

What I outlined with the algorithm is that sometimes you can't steal it back.

You just rob or get robbed.

One player loses all momentum although they made the correct play. Best case they have a check they don't need healthy, worst case they lose the game, maybe not that turn but as I've stated, being forced to def tera just leaves you open for a worse exchange later.

This isn't every battle, but it's how I play my battles at a high level. I actively find a no-win situation my opp can't do anything about. I'm going to get that dragon dance boss, you literally can't stop me even though you played correctly lol

I'm forcing players to lose, and taking out any autonomy they have to win via skillful play.

Again not every battle, but more often that you would see in lower ladder, for sure.

I do it, and it happens to me.

As the meta progresses, and more high level tours are played, this issue gets worse and more exploitable.

I would give this meta a 7/10. If we could mitigate or outright stop exchanges like this it would improve significantly, imo.
Maybe in time players will realize instead of tera normal on the Nite they go into a check, or something. Not 100% sure how we, or the meta, will evolve when it comes to stealing and not earning momentum.

PS- again, this is not a "ban tera" post. I'm not trying to engage with anyone about tera. I realized recently that the argument is fun vs balance at it's core and it's a subjective taste of the player if they want to focus on more "gotcha" moments and enjoy seeing their Volc become a Grass type than they do about a balanced and competitive meta. (That was me in gen 7, I would have been pro Z moves although they lessen the balance and comp aspects of the game, so I understand where casual players are coming from) This post assumes Tera will never be banned and is fine with that, just expressing some frustrations with the meta and looking for possible solutions or different perspectives on this matter.
 

I'm a bit confused how to read this.

All of them are described as 'not a priority', but obviously shed tail would've been and has been banned.

Was this written up before hand on the shed tail ban? Cause saying the two highest ones (3) are not priority begs the question of what is priority right now.

____

Either way, Tera is still a stain on this gen and will always boil down to whether you enjoy the mechanic or not. Its not going to get better once home comes out... whether the meta becomes bulkier, walls just become more defensive and harder to deal with (turning heatran into a mono type with flash fire sounds awful to deal with.), or alternatively offensive mons become more cheesy with coverage to deal with them (espathra especially was this, sure shed tail was banned, but it still breaks through everything thanks to tera coverage meaning even stored power counters aren't safe).

We joke about heatran vs. volcarona but what the fuck is that matchup going to look like when tera is involved? Either volc is going to tera to break past it, or heatran is going to tera to neutralize it... and its still a coinflip on which reveals tera first, or even if when one teras the other just.. doesn't cause its not worth wasting it if they know they can't beat that tera or can muscle it regardless. That's just one example, and I don't think volc is worth banning, this scenario just happens a lot between checks rn and the numerous ways checks can cheese each other is just dumb.

Ban or no ban, I don't think there will ever be a side that's happy with the result. I think at least showing the no ban side what the result would be (by you know... a proper suspect ladder with tera banned for 2 weeks so they can fucking see what they're voting for instead of the same ladder during the suspect test they've been comfort playing???) would at least validate their opinions on keeping it, or ultimately convince them hey, maybe this ladder without tera doesn't suck after all!

And no, I don't mean two split ladders, I mean a literal fucking suspect test... when we suspect test to ban something, the ladder we get reqs on has the suspect banned.... tera didn't do this we didn't even have a suspect ladder, they might as well had never asked for reqs and used the current elo everyone was at on the regular ladder cause there was nothing to see during the test.
 
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Was this written up before hand on the shed tail ban? Cause saying the two highest ones (3) are not priority begs the question of what is priority right now.
This just means we aren’t acting immediately; the support isn’t on the level of prior things we have acted on. It’s an awkward state as the survey was conducted prior to the ban, and the metagame needs to react to the ban now.
 
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