Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion

[Moyashi]

Posting to say I’ve been having so much fun with the block + ghost type garganacl set.


Garganacl @ Leftovers
Ability: Purifying Salt
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpD / 4 Spe
Careful Nature
- Block
- Curse
- Recover
- Salt Cure

people with stall teams who have faced it before might even immediately forfeit when the set is revealed, lol! Rare to see high elo games with forfeits within 3 turns.

just an FYI that team is a joke team with no hazards or hazards removal, and it’s been performing like crazy due to its ability to dismantle both stall and disrupt offense

The way they insta noped out of there since Garg clicked Block was somehow really funny. Is there even anything stall can do against such a set?

You mention it being able to disrupt offense, so now I'm curious about seeing games where it does so. This kind of Garg set has always fascinated me. Are there any replays available of tera ghost+block Garg vs offense?

Garganacl / Volcarona / Dragonite / Dragapult / Kingambit / Great Tusk are all leagues ahead of the rest of the metagame in terms of viability. Especially gambit and tusk, they’re almost mandatory on a good team.

Seconding this sentiment but especially Tusk and Gambit. In the current meta it feels like you need a seriously good reason to not run them given their consistency, with Tusk in particular almost feeling like it overshadows so many other good grounds we have.

 

[Ctann]

The way they insta noped out of there since Garg clicked Block was somehow really funny. Is there even anything stall can do against such a set?

You mention it being able to disrupt offense, so now I'm curious about seeing games where it does so. This kind of Garg set has always fascinated me. Are there any replays available of tera ghost+block Garg vs offense?



Seconding this sentiment but especially Tusk and Gambit. In the current meta it feels like you need a seriously good reason to not run them given their consistency, with Tusk in particular almost feeling like it overshadows so many other good grounds we have.

thanks for the reply, to answer each question:

1. highvoltage had a great stall team, his adaptation to solve the ghost garganacl problem was a Tera ghost Alomolola. This can stall out the salt cure + curse damage if the Garg player stays in. Although, ghost type alomolola loses advantages that flying type has against the grass types and great tusk. There’s probably other stall answers which can be discovered. I’m not so sure what’s available otherwise.

2. The easiest example of disrupting offense is the forced great tusk switchin and then either KOing or trading. Most great tusk are leftovers, so usually it’s a trade.

This is a big deal if you have a gambit or similar threat to offense.

The play is to curse on the switchin, and then block as it knocks off (standard great tusk play). If it earthquakes instead, the matchup is now a 50/50 trade, as you prefer to keep your rock type for defense boosts and it’s likely you’ll need to Tera ghost and recover spam whilst you wait for salt cure damage to justify a sacrificial curse. If it uses stealth rock, you’ve potentially won the game, lol. If it is bulk up, you have an interesting matchup.

You can modify the EVs to adapt to the great tusk switchin better. keep in mind max SpDef is good against toxapex and amoonguss. Both of these commonly need to be blocked and Tera ghost with the -50% HP to be deleted from the game.

You also control gameplay tempo because any high elo player who knows the set will either EQ or knock off (or even risk another switch in). So you can switch out before taking damage and control the next turn. Having turns advantage against offense is and very disruptive.

3. I will save some replays if there’s interest :)

 

[the best worst]

I’ve been having a lot of fun with toedscruel with this set


Toedscruel @ Focus Sash
Ability: Mycelium Might
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Earth Power
- Rapid Spin
- Spikes
- Spore

It sets up spikes so reliably bypassing magic bounce and it can spore everything unless they have a grass type. It’s great against glimmora leads and it gives your opponent pick your poison scenarios where they have to choose between getting 2 or 3 layers of spikes or a sleeping Pokémon which is a dead Pokémon and setup foder against HO

 

[teal6]

Alright bro, im gonna admit, you killed me with kindness, we frens now

Honestly, on the overall tera discussion, I have mixed feeling
WARNING: NONE OF THIS POST IS FACTUALLY CHECKED, I'm BIASED, PLEASE UNDERSTAND

On one hand, the arguments that
-you get bullshit
-you cannot prepare for everything
-makes stupid mons more stupid
-the power creep generated is too much

It is kinda true, you might like it or not, but all of this has some veracity to it, just playing a bit will land you in situations where "fuck, could have won if it wasn't for that" and also situations where "damm, I was gonna lose if it wasn't for that"

But you know what? Its fucking fun
I know fun is subjective, some people love it, some people don't, some people love gen 7, others gen 8, nothing is written when it comes to fun (except gen 4 my beloved) and I know that fun should not be an argument to consider when we need to consider the state of the meta, but there's some people who like tera, I like tera, I like building it with it in mind, I like having options, I like being able to bring lower tier mons and pull whack shit with it, and I would love for it to stay. Even if it means having to potentially perma lock the ceiling on what is "the most balanced tier possible" because bro, it draws the ratings brother

There are 2 things that I love and hate, how unique can the offensive teams be, and how fair is to play against defense, and while sure, I have my problems with Garganacl, is that it really, pex is not a problem anymore, the 3 unawere trio are balanced. The only thing sad about defense is that when it comes to defog, you only have tflame (corv is ass and I have made up my mind on that front). Sure, I have been emotionally crushed by the stall empire teams, but then I just look at the teambuilder, do some changes to have a better matchup against defense, and then never encounter defense again bro why is my luck like this. And offense had a problem named shed tail, which is gone, and people are now trying different stuff

The more the day passes, the more I'm getting into the "tera at team preview" argument, but for better or worse, there are some compromises to be done, and I hope that at the end of the day, everyone is at peace with what you believe. As for me, I'm gonna sell tissues that day, the economy is kinda bad and the university won't pay itself soooooo uuhhh

Agree with this post fundamentally. Well put

 

[the best worst]

I’ve been running choice scarf meowscarada recently to outspeed booster energy iron Valiant and dragapult and I honestly think that it’s its best set. If you told me a year ago that a Pokémon with over 120 speed would like to run a choice scarf as it’s most optimal item, I would laugh at you

 

[1LDK]

I’ve been running choice scarf meowscarada recently to outspeed booster energy iron Valiant and dragapult and I honestly think that it’s its best set. If you told me a year ago that a Pokémon with over 120 speed would like to run a choice scarf as it’s most optimal item, I would laugh at you

Bro, I have been running scarf meow for a long time now, it shits on pult, valiant, bax, and so much, IMO, scarf meow is the true best cleaner and revenge killer in the tier, the speed is trully supreme, the damage is decent, it has a lot of tools to mix and match, the only downside is that Play Rough gets an increased 99.9% chance to miss with this set, but hey, the amount of times it has saved my ass from Roaring Moons, its just beautiful, I fucking love this mon

 

[Ctann]

I’ve been running choice scarf meowscarada recently to outspeed booster energy iron Valiant and dragapult and I honestly think that it’s its best set. If you told me a year ago that a Pokémon with over 120 speed would like to run a choice scarf as it’s most optimal item, I would laugh at you

scarf meowscarada was good in earlier metas when 135 speed was the benchmark to beat, then it was scarfed chi yu, etc. Now it’s okay, but I wouldn’t say best set!

I think a simple attacking set does big work against teams. Especially if you have lures or other tactics for the dealing with the reliable checks like Amoonguss, corviknight, etc.

 

[Alternator]

Amen to that brother. On another less garg centric subject, how are you all liking the meta and what is standout-ishly broken right now? Are we moving towards a balanced meta or are things still relatively unhealthy?

Offense is going to be favored until we get Home, because the best mons skew very offensive.

For one example, our available defensive fairies are Azumarill (lacks recovery), Scream Tail (zero offensive presence), and Tinkaton (lacks recovery). In the category of 'not OU viable, but maybe Morkal could make it work' you'll find Florges (no instant recovery). We're flush with good dragons - Baxcalibur, Dragapult, Dragonite, Garchomp, Hydreigon, Roaring Moon, Walking Wake - and very short on bulky faries who can also survive the coverage moves. There's also three good defensive steels, and none of them have the issues of the fairies, but Gholdengo is also offensively viable, and Kingambit is actually better on offense.

Then there's the drastically reduced distribution of Toxic, several key defensive mons losing Knock Off, the removal of Scald, Teleport becoming a signature move...

Blissey lost Teleport and Toxic, and now it's down in RU. Clefable lost to Dexit. Ferrothorn lost to Dexit. Heatran lost to Dexit. Slowbro lost Teleport, and it's also down in RU. G-Slowking lost to Dexit. Toxapex lost Knock Off and Scald, though it's still OU viable, just weakened. Zapdos lost to Dexit. Literally every defensive mon in Gen 8 OU proper was either Dexited or lost important moves.

How you feel about offense/HO being dominant really determines how you're going to feel about the health of the meta.

 

[I am New]

Guys Why are garganacles running eq? Is it because of covert cloak users like dozo and ghold? Then why not run knock off. It provides a TON more utility. knock pairs beautifully with salt cure removing lefties and boots on valuable pokes making them vurnerable to hazards [especially tspikes] makes garg really nasty. salt cure protect recover knock seems to be really nasty to deal with. I would like a detailed explanation on why knock off is less popular than eq.

 

[Local Dog]

Guys Why are garganacles running eq? Is it because of covert cloak users like dozo and ghold? Then why not run knock off. It provides a TON more utility. knock pairs beautifully with salt cure removing lefties and boots on valuable pokes making them vurnerable to hazards [especially tspikes] makes garg really nasty. salt cure protect recover knock seems to be really nasty to deal with. I would like a detailed explanation on why knock off is less popular than eq.

Garg doesn't seem to learn knock, at least that's what the Smogon dex says

 

[Ehmcee]

Guys Why are garganacles running eq? Is it because of covert cloak users like dozo and ghold? Then why not run knock off. It provides a TON more utility. knock pairs beautifully with salt cure removing lefties and boots on valuable pokes making them vurnerable to hazards [especially tspikes] makes garg really nasty. salt cure protect recover knock seems to be really nasty to deal with. I would like a detailed explanation on why knock off is less popular than eq.

Garganacl indeed does not get knock off, Earthquake is typically ran on curse sets and is it's most reliable coverage option, mainly hitting gholdengo and hitting most types for neutral damage. Salt cure also obviously hits the flying types that are immune to eq, as well as bulky waters that can typically stomach eq's quite well.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

Then why not run knock off. It provides a TON more utility. knock pairs beautifully with salt cure removing lefties and boots on valuable pokes making them vurnerable to hazards [especially tspikes] makes garg really nasty. salt cure protect recover knock seems to be really nasty to deal with. I would like a detailed explanation on why knock off is less popular than eq.

i can tell you one really good reason that garganacl doesn't run knock off

 

[cosmogii]

so why is corviknight still ou? i feel like its typing is the only thing keeping it from just falling to uu at this point, i really dont see much that it does in an average game lol

 

[Finchinator]

so why is corviknight still ou? i feel like its typing is the only thing keeping it from just falling to uu at this point, i really dont see much that it does in an average game lol

Earthquake

 

[1LDK]

so why is corviknight still ou? i feel like its typing is the only thing keeping it from just falling to uu at this point, i really dont see much that it does in an average game lol

Earthquake

Literally this, Corv is still OU because when it comes to flying types, is him, dnite, and then you have to go to UU, once HOME comes, depending on the amount of defogers we get, we might see it UU, because if you think about it, corv these days handles Tusk, Meow, Bax and Gambit, unironically, Skarmory could do that, and also gets walled by dengo, but has spikes at least

To me, corv is B+ when I'm feeling generous, D when I'm feeling honest, each time I give this thing a chance, always disappoints me

 

[cosmogii]

Literally this, Corv is still OU because when it comes to flying types, is him, dnite, and then you have to go to UU, once HOME comes, depending on the amount of defogers we get, we might see it UU, because if you think about it, corv these days handles Tusk, Meow, Bax and Gambit, unironically, Skarmory could do that, and also gets walled by dengo, but has spikes at least

To me, corv is B+ when I'm feeling generous, D when I'm feeling honest, each time I give this thing a chance, always disappoints me

cant something like talonflame do the exact same thing, but isnt weak to dengo? gratnted it hates bax, but dondozo can semi deal with that for talonflame, albeit not the MOST reliably. choice band glaive rushes will still disembowel you. combine that with more utility in spreading burns around, taunt, pivot u turn. the thing is pretty nice, all things considered. is it just the reliance on boots that keeps it niche?

 

[1LDK]

cant something like talonflame do the exact same thing, but isnt weak to dengo? gratnted it hates bax, but dondozo can semi deal with that for talonflame, albeit not the MOST reliably. choice band glaive rushes will still disembowel you. combine that with more utility in spreading burns around, taunt, pivot u turn. the thing is pretty nice, all things considered. is it just the reliance on boots that keeps it niche?

Tflame is in UU, thats why Tflame is used, Tflame also handles the rare scizor and if you have a flying move, it can semi emergency check volc, 4 times weak to rock on a support mon in kinda bad

 

[Alternator]

cant something like talonflame do the exact same thing, but isnt weak to dengo? gratnted it hates bax, but dondozo can semi deal with that for talonflame, albeit not the MOST reliably. choice band glaive rushes will still disembowel you. combine that with more utility in spreading burns around, taunt, pivot u turn. the thing is pretty nice, all things considered. is it just the reliance on boots that keeps it niche?

Talonflame has fewer resistances and much less bulk, so unless you are relying on burns or really value a defogger that beats Gholdengo, it's mostly outclassed.

 

[Arc]

talonflame is so much squishier than corv, and personally against tusk id much rather switch in a corviknight which will take like 30 from knock off and put in some rocky helmet damage than fish for a burn and get boots knocked off
with how prevalent rocks are talonflame without boots just gets destroyed

 

[Mega Breloom]

talonflame is so much squishier than corv, and personally against tusk id much rather switch in a corviknight which will take like 30 from knock off and put in some rocky helmet damage than fish for a burn and get boots knocked off
with how prevalent rocks are talonflame without boots just gets destroyed

Bulk up Tusk uses Corviknight as set up fodder (source: me that haven't used other set than bulk up body press Tusk), but yeah, Talonflame also gets screwed by set up sweepers with tera fire. I also think Corviknight will drop once home arrives and we have better flying mons.

 

[cosmogii]

Bulk up Tusk uses Corviknight as set up fodder (source: me that haven't used other set than bulk up body press Tusk), but yeah, Talonflame also gets screwed by set up sweepers with tera fire. I also think Corviknight will drop once home arrives and we have better flying mons.

corviknight dropping feels as bizarre and nasty as tyranitar becoming a solid uu pokemon man
this whole generation is nuts

 

[Mega Breloom]

corviknight dropping feels as bizarre and nasty as tyranitar becoming a solid uu pokemon man
this whole generation is nuts

In my opinion it feels really inconsistent, defog Corviknight and Gholdengo needs no explanation, but even without Gholdengo defog Corviknight suffers one of the worst cases of 4MS just by lossing one move and becomes easily exploitable by some sweepers or others depening of what move they lose to run defog.

 

[cosmogii]

In my opinion it feels really inconsistent, defog Corviknight and Gholdengo needs no explanation, but even without Gholdengo defog Corviknight suffers one of the worst cases of 4MS just by lossing one move and becomes easily exploitable by some sweepers or others depening of what move they lose to run defog.

and i agree with you wholeheartedly, corv just cant cut it anymore. i get why its bad, but the idea of it being anything but ou just makes me feel gross. i felt the same when barraskewda dropped

 

[SpritePony]

Popping in to say a couple of things.

First off, been having a blast with Specs Dragon Bike. Seriously, people underestimate this thing and suddenly a mon or two of theirs drops to it. It's speed tier is around the same as the fast OU starters (Meow, Gren, Cinder), which gives it the ability to outrun a number of threats. But Specs + Draco/Overheat just deletes things and chunks checks.

Second, Inteleon is coming out soon. It looks like an over glorified Gren, honestly. It doesn't have as much coverage as Gren, but has access to Air Slash sooo ehhh? I don't see it doing anything any time soon.

Third, I don't know about you guys, but I still find my Corviknight to be putting in work. Maybe it's just how my teams balance out in comparison to the teams you guys build... I dunno. I always find that Corvi does stuff for me in battles.

Hard Wall: Clodsire, Meowscarada, Treads, Orth, Maushold, Tinkaton, Tsareena.
Checks: Breloom, itself, Dragonite, Garchomp, Iron Leaves, Decidueye, Haxorus, Lucario, Offensive Mimikyu, Physical Mence, Quaquaval.

It has a number of uses, and it has some villains that tear it to shreds, but IMO Corvi is in no way a bad mon.

 

[Mega Breloom]

Popping in to say a couple of things.

First off, been having a blast with Specs Dragon Bike. Seriously, people underestimate this thing and suddenly a mon or two of theirs drops to it. It's speed tier is around the same as the fast OU starters (Meow, Gren, Cinder), which gives it the ability to outrun a number of threats. But Specs + Draco/Overheat just deletes things and chunks checks.

Second, Inteleon is coming out soon. It looks like an over glorified Gren, honestly. It doesn't have as much coverage as Gren, but has access to Air Slash sooo ehhh? I don't see it doing anything any time soon.

Third, I don't know about you guys, but I still find my Corviknight to be putting in work. Maybe it's just how my teams balance out in comparison to the teams you guys build... I dunno. I always find that Corvi does stuff for me in battles.

Hard Wall: Clodsire, Meowscarada, Treads, Orth, Maushold, Tinkaton, Tsareena.
Checks: Breloom, itself, Dragonite, Garchomp, Iron Leaves, Decidueye, Haxorus, Lucario, Offensive Mimikyu, Physical Mence, Quaquaval.

It has a number of uses, and it has some villains that tear it to shreds, but IMO Corvi is in no way a bad mon.

I'm saying it is very inconsistent. Defog not only is in a bad spot because of Gholdengo but also by the fast paced meta. The common hazard setters in this meta are mostly suicide leads so in most of the battles Corv wastes a moveslot just to get rid of hazards once, which it is nice, but at the same time Gholdengo and taunt can prevent it for several turns. Compared with rapid spin which has the added effect of boosting the speed seems to have less value, overall. Just like people that has been telling me that body press Tusk is bad and I should be using jolly Tusk, but even if my rival is using all the unaware mons, it never lose to Gambit thanks to it and can spin, that is why is my favorite set, is just too consistent. While defog Corviknight just gives me the vibes of not doing enough even if I don't use Gholdengo much.
Not defog Corviknight is much better IMO, but we are talking about if it will still have issues when it gets more competition for the ground inmunity role.