Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion

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MegaScizor32 said:
I agree. I dont see Garchomp dropping out of OU. In my opinion its the 3rd best mixed attacker in the whole game behind Dragapult and Iron valiant, which says a lot considering those are A+ viable mons.

252+ SpA Life Orb Garchomp Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Great Tusk: 364-429 (83.8 - 98.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

It can comfortably get rocks up and not be afraid of Tusk. It can also tera fire or steel to flip the script on Pult or Valiant.
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What other mixed attackers are there in the game?
1LDK said:
Hey guys
Did you know that Garchomp has a better attack stat than special attack? Because GF designed the mon to be a physical attacker?

252 Atk Choice Band Tera Ground Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Great Tusk: 194-230 (44.7 - 52.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

How about you guys stop trying to make Chain Chomp work
"it's the best set because it lures tusk"
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Chain Chomp is considered the best set, more so because of the environment, namely Great Tusk. Both dealing with it and competing with it. There is not much reason as to why you'd use Choice Band Garchomp when Great Tusk exists and is actually neutral to the only real Flying type (technically Dragonite, but it Teras often and Great Tusk has Ice Spinner if it doesn't Tera). It's also much better to OHKO Great Tusk or KO after some chip since it has Rapid Spin. You also hit Dondozo, Tera Kingambit (guaranteed KO after 2 Rough Skin hits, Chain Chomp will at least survive 1 hit), and its even useful for Glimmora since Special Attack don't trigger Toxic Debris (same reason why Mixed Samurott-H will be superior set when its released).
Though I'd say this is kind of cope for trying to keep Garchomp alive in OU. Most of the "2HKOs" aren't true 2HKOs because Draco Meteor lowers your SpA and you need to deal 66.7% with initial Draco or deal 50% with Earthquake with only 4 EVs.
 
Imo Tyranitar is largely bad in part due to Sand getting indirectly gutted of abusers with the only Sand Rush mon being Lycanroc currently. While I’m not saying Excadrill or Dracozolt would instantly revive Sand and TTar's viability (both of them are meh to bad into Great Tusk which also eats TTar alive outside of Ice Beam lures), I am saying that whenever Sand is a viable playstyle, Tyranitar does start to shine a lot more than it would on its own.
 
Lobby Eeveee said:
Specs TTar is used in high ladder and is the 2nd most popular ttar item behind lefties. What do you think about this lure? Specs ice beam OHKOs tusk.
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ive never seen specs ttar ever; I think it sounds interesting but I don't think it would be good
ttar having ice beam is already pretty common but if ur specs and locked into ice beam people can calc the damage and then just play around that accordingly
honestly ttar really sucks in the ou meta rn but if there was to be a half viable set id say stealth rock sped tank
there's just simply too many counters to him and HO is dominating high ladder and ttar really sucks against that as the HO staples such as valiant, moon, gambit, bax etc all destroy it (with the exception of moth)
+ cinderace and meow both chip it hard I really don't think there's any point of running ttar rn when better options against tusk exist like pult, valiant, balloon/scarf ghold, and more
if anyone has a good replay of ttar putting in work send to me im interested :)
 
this gen will go down as the wackiest showcase of powercreep we've had
ttar is uu
gren is uu
barraskewda is nubl
and GARCHOMP IS POSSIBLY THE LEAST USED DRAGON IN THE OU TIER

i've said it before and i'll say it again, gen 9 is a feverdream i cant wake up from
 
cosmogii said:
this gen will go down as the wackiest showcase of powercreep we've had
ttar is uu
gren is uu
barraskewda is nubl
and GARCHOMP IS POSSIBLY THE LEAST USED DRAGON IN THE OU TIER

i've said it before and i'll say it again, gen 9 is a feverdream i cant wake up from
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didn't barraskewda drop pretty low in early SWSH?
 
houndstone shouldntve been banned. its pathetically easy to counteract. it isnt even a viable option, let alone a gamebreaking mon. anything that can tera normal stops it in its tracks, weather mon shut it down, and it takes two team slots to even make it work. and for those of you saying "just run scarf" its still outsped by dragapult. and even if you terad early and dont have a normal type, it still loses to kingambit.
 
cosmogii said:
ttar is uu
gren is uu
barraskewda is nubl
and GARCHOMP IS POSSIBLY THE LEAST USED DRAGON IN THE OU TIER
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Gren is in UU due to mechanic changes. I really dount he would be UU if Protean still worked as it did before

Ttar has no partners to abuse sand with and he did get some pretty nasty move cuts last gen

Chomp lost Scale Shot and lost a lot of options with it

Yeah power creep is intense but I think the mechanic changes we've had prolly influenced these drops even stronger than power creep. Blissey would most likely also be OU if it wasn't for recovery nerfs and the brutal movepool cut it has
 
Cancel cult said:
houndstone shouldntve been banned. its pathetically easy to counteract. it isnt even a viable option, let alone a gamebreaking mon. anything that can tera normal stops it in its tracks, weather mon shut it down, and it takes two team slots to even make it work. and for those of you saying "just run scarf" its still outsped by dragapult. and even if you terad early and dont have a normal type, it still loses to kingambit.
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I disagree for a few reasons:
A: Houndstone has coverage for the normal types and dark types with body press/tera blast fighting, the latter which makes it better against 'pult too.
B: The list of things that are faster than it is pretty small and basically exclusive to hyper offense pokemon. While a fair few of these can kill it, it still means that if you don't want to play hyper offense or you don't want to use 1/2 of these pokemon (because yes you need 2 physical attackers with SE coverage to kill it with Fluffy, as seen below) you basically have to carry defensive options like a normal/dark type that doesn't get obliterated by its fighting coverage
C: the teams houndstone will be on will be based around removing normal and dark types and they're quite effective.
D: Houndstone can run sand rush to not be outsped by anything w/ ttar (which also hard counters Pult for it), or it can run Fluffy to resist priority that would've ended its sweep
let me just introduce you to this calc:
252+ Atk Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 124 HP / 0 Def Fluffy Houndstone: 129-153 (40.8 - 48.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO which means even if you predict wrong you can survive it easily and hit it with your fighting coverage. Not to mention, if you've tera'd fighting already Kingambit's best option is Iron Head, which isn't even a guaranteed 4HKO. So no, kingambit does not hard counter it in any way, nor do normal types
This isn't even mentioning how normal types are garbage in OU already so you have to commit to tera with it if you even want a chance to beat it.
When you are running houndstone, both of you are running 5v5 until the endgame but you have the Tera advantage because they have to respect Houndstone
 
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Cancel cult said:
houndstone shouldntve been banned. its pathetically easy to counteract. it isnt even a viable option, let alone a gamebreaking mon. anything that can tera normal stops it in its tracks, weather mon shut it down, and it takes two team slots to even make it work. and for those of you saying "just run scarf" its still outsped by dragapult. and even if you terad early and dont have a normal type, it still loses to kingambit.
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Isn't this the exact same argument people make about baton pass teams
 
Just A Shroom God said:
I disagree for a few reasons
A: Houndstone has coverage for the normal types and dark types with body press/tera blast fighting, the latter which makes it better against 'pult too.
B: Pult being the only thing that is faster than it with a scarf means you basically have to carry defensive options like a normal/dark type that doesn't get obliterated by its fighting coverage
C: the teams houndstone will be on will be based around removing normal and dark types and they're quite effective.
D: Houndstone can run sand rush to not be outsped by anything w/ ttar (which also hard counters Pult for it), or it can run Fluffy to resist priority that would've ended its sweep
let me just introduce you to this calc:
252+ Atk Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 124 HP / 0 Def Fluffy Houndstone: 129-153 (40.8 - 48.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO which means even if you predict wrong you can survive it easily and hit it with your fighting coverage. Not to mention, if you've tera'd fighting already Kingambit's best option is Iron Head, which isn't even a guaranteed 4HKO. So no, kingambit does not hard counter it in any way, nor do normal types
This isn't even mentioning how normal types are garbage in OU already so you have to commit to tera with it if you even want a chance to beat it.
When you are running houndstone, both of you are running 5v5 but you have the Tera advantage because they have to respect the Houndstone endgame.
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4 Def Houndstone Body Press vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tera Normal Dragapult: 146-174 (46 - 54.8%) -- 59.8% chance to 2HKO
 
Cancel cult said:
baton pass teams are harder to counteract and change how the game is played. houndstone is just a win condition that might work if your opponent closes their eyes.
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Both team styles are easy to counteract but in doing so, make your team worse against normal teams that you will be encountering far more often and as such, are both unhealthy parts of the meta game. Quite honestly dry passing should be left legal in all formats it's available in but that's a different discussion entirely
 
YubelVT said:
Both team styles are easy to counteract but in doing so, make your team worse against normal teams that you will be encountering far more often and as such, are both unhealthy parts of the meta game. Quite honestly dry passing should be left legal in all formats it's available in but that's a different discussion entirely
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there are plenty of mon that can change their tera type without changing their playstyle. and zoruark hisui just slaughters it.
 
YubelVT said:
Both team styles are easy to counteract but in doing so, make your team worse against normal teams that you will be encountering far more often and as such, are both unhealthy parts of the meta game. Quite honestly dry passing should be left legal in all formats it's available in but that's a different discussion entirely
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yeah i do kinda agree with this, drypassing is a good thing cause it gives mons utility they wouldnt have otherwise
but dear god i dont wanna put the people who run it all to have to deal with ANOTHER baton pass clause
 
cosmogii said:
yeah i do kinda agree with this, drypassing is a good thing cause it gives mons utility they wouldnt have otherwise
but dear god i dont wanna put the people who run it all to have to deal with ANOTHER baton pass clause
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eh just copy paste the clause from gen 5 OU where drypassing was (relatively recently) made legal
 
YubelVT said:
a mon having one (1) check/counter is inherently a sign of being unhealthy, especially since h-zoro cannot take a hit at all and has like 7 other things it also needs to do.
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if its running scarf:
dragapult
a normal type (hard counter)
a pokemon that can tera normal (hard counter)
252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Fluffy Houndstone: 193-228 (67.7 - 80%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
cost: one team slot.
if its running sand rush:
a normal type
a pokemon that can tera normal
zoruark
kingambit
torkoal or peliper
waiting a few turns
cost:two team slots
 
YubelVT said:
eh just copy paste the clause from gen 5 OU where drypassing was (relatively recently) made legal
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im so glad that bp is illegal because of one mon specifically
quaquaval. it would be the most used pokemon in the metagame, bar none if bp was legal, and i wholeheartedly stand by this
 
Cancel cult said:
if its running scarf:
dragapult
a normal type (hard counter)
a pokemon that can tera normal (hard counter)
252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Fluffy Houndstone: 193-228 (67.7 - 80%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
cost: one team slot.
if its running sand rush:
a normal type
a pokemon that can tera normal
zoruark
kingambit
torkoal or peliper
waiting a few turns
cost:two team slots
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ah yes, mons that counter houndstone. but what about the rest of houndstone's team? sure if this was 1v1 houndstone would be fine, but this is 6v6. Houndstone's team would be built to deal with houndstone answers. This is not that hard of a concept to understand and yet you are consistently failing to understand it
 
Cancel cult said:
4 Def Houndstone Body Press vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tera Normal Dragapult: 146-174 (46 - 54.8%) -- 59.8% chance to 2HKO
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252 Atk Tera Fighting Houndstone Tera Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tera Normal Dragapult: 278-330 (87.6 - 104.1%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Tera Normal Dragapult Shadow Ball vs. 124 HP / 0 SpD Tera Fighting Houndstone: 168-198 (53.1 - 62.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
I'm also not sure how this proves anything, because Tera Normal on Pult is an objectively bad typing, and it's very unlikely Pult will have not been chipped throughout the whole match, even with HDB, and that means it's not running Specs so Houndstone can just tank its hits.
fiish said:
just let five of your pokemon die to counter houndstone, it's that easy
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"and then also run 2 priority moves in your team to potentially have a chance to counter non-tera'd Houndstone"
Quite honestly dry passing should be left legal in all formats it's available in but that's a different discussion entirely
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I agree with you, but the issue is that this opens up the door for complex move bans that can have support because drypass, along with some secondary arguments about your opponent can raise your stats too and that kinda violates it.
 
Just A Shroom God said:
I agree with you, but the issue is that this opens up the door for complex move bans that can have support because drypass, along with some secondary arguments about your opponent can raise your stats too and that kinda violates it.
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Like I said, different discussion entirely that warrants an entirely new thread. But quite honestly you could just copy the BW OU Baton Pass clause which was relatively recently changed to allow drypassing. Needs a lot of discussion tho
 
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