Also, want to make a general point: anything that has happened in National Dex OU or any unofficial metagames in general will have no impact on our tiering proceedings. Comparisons between the two are generally overhyped and impractical.
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion
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The important thing to ask is what has changed that would warrant a mon being reconsidered? Magearna, even if we ignore gaining Spikes on top of its busted Trick sets last gen, is entering into a Metagame it exploits to hell and back with next to no Fairy answers (vs 2 Gens where everyone already needed anti-Fairy for the Tapus) and Hazard stack Offense being more common than ever to snowball kills with Soul Heart. Two of the most common Pokemon in the game can't switch-in and beat it (Tusk fearing anything besides VS since Specs/Trick cripple it while Shift Gear is primed to sweep, and Kingambit does ~50% at best with Iron Head from Five Faints while dropping to Specs Fleur).
Stuff like Chien-Pao I can see merit in revisiting for example with bulky additions making its fraility more of a hindrance if there are fewer things it can crack solo or if Tera Dark for it actually becomes an opportunity cost instead of a free kill button, but several former "OUBL" Pokemon didn't really lose anything on the transition, if not gaining something major in environment or movepool
Stuff like Chien-Pao I can see merit in revisiting for example with bulky additions making its fraility more of a hindrance if there are fewer things it can crack solo or if Tera Dark for it actually becomes an opportunity cost instead of a free kill button, but several former "OUBL" Pokemon didn't really lose anything on the transition, if not gaining something major in environment or movepool
As a rule of thumb, we are trying to be quite inclusive with the list of things we are voting on. Some things maybe obvious bans or obvious drops, but it’s a best practice to be safe and have an answer to our players’ many questions rather than to cut corners.
I am not going to begin to speculate as to where things may end up, but I can promise the vote will be covering a lot of what’s been discussed and what will continue to be discussed.
scald burns happen more than fiery dance boost spatk :(
Most of the fat stuff that will return is either flying types or weak to dark like Cress or Mew. The only thing that will resist its stabs is Magearna but I can't see it even touching the tier. Also, most of the walls returning got several nerfs.
imo any of the Gen 8 Bans that got buffed should pretty much instantly be gone
like notably Spectrier, Urshifu and Magearna
Magearna and Urshifu got buffs to their movepools and Spectrier is oneof those Pokemon that gain a lot more from Tera than others
Zamzenta (either version) discourse is going to be hell but I see zero reason why something with 120 Attack, great speed (naturally outspeeds max speed landorus t with zero invest and a neutral nature), and great defenses should just be allowed to roam the lands for no real reason
Genuine question: What does it add to the tier? All it does is stat check most Pokemon and make sure that if they can't meet that stat check, it will do nothing against Zamazenta teams until it is down.
While the ability was nerfed it also got Body Press so now you actually get the funny funny
252+ Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. +2 0 HP / 252 Def Zamazenta: 70-84 (21.5 - 25.8%) -- 1.4% chance to 4HKO (normal without leftovers btw)
this is a Pokemon that can literally setup on max attack adamant lando t if it really wants to, and it can get to +6, even disregarding the free once per game boost
one of its biggest weaknesses was bulky Waters and funny story, as we know for now, Scald is basically a thing of the past. Unless you want to count Volcanion
+2 252 Def Zamazenta Body Press vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Volcanion: 204-241 (67.7 - 80%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
which also loses if it switches in on Iron Defense
Zamazenta basically just forces a KO unless you are fighting Zapdos or something, and even then body press is just one set, and there is literally absolutely zero reason to release this back to the wild again, keep that shit in Uber, not even a quickban plz ty
just because something doesn't instantly break teams doesn't mean it isn't a problem to teambuilding or competitiveness of a tier
for the divide between zamazenta hero and crowned both have their own problems as well
this is just my take on this mon that people are surprisingly eager all the time to bring to OU, but that is my opinion on it
like notably Spectrier, Urshifu and Magearna
Magearna and Urshifu got buffs to their movepools and Spectrier is oneof those Pokemon that gain a lot more from Tera than others
Zamzenta (either version) discourse is going to be hell but I see zero reason why something with 120 Attack, great speed (naturally outspeeds max speed landorus t with zero invest and a neutral nature), and great defenses should just be allowed to roam the lands for no real reason
Genuine question: What does it add to the tier? All it does is stat check most Pokemon and make sure that if they can't meet that stat check, it will do nothing against Zamazenta teams until it is down.
While the ability was nerfed it also got Body Press so now you actually get the funny funny
252+ Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. +2 0 HP / 252 Def Zamazenta: 70-84 (21.5 - 25.8%) -- 1.4% chance to 4HKO (normal without leftovers btw)
this is a Pokemon that can literally setup on max attack adamant lando t if it really wants to, and it can get to +6, even disregarding the free once per game boost
one of its biggest weaknesses was bulky Waters and funny story, as we know for now, Scald is basically a thing of the past. Unless you want to count Volcanion
+2 252 Def Zamazenta Body Press vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Volcanion: 204-241 (67.7 - 80%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
which also loses if it switches in on Iron Defense
Zamazenta basically just forces a KO unless you are fighting Zapdos or something, and even then body press is just one set, and there is literally absolutely zero reason to release this back to the wild again, keep that shit in Uber, not even a quickban plz ty
just because something doesn't instantly break teams doesn't mean it isn't a problem to teambuilding or competitiveness of a tier
for the divide between zamazenta hero and crowned both have their own problems as well
this is just my take on this mon that people are surprisingly eager all the time to bring to OU, but that is my opinion on it
Cress will hardly ever stay a psychic type though. Tera+ how common sun makes him the best all around defensive wall in the game.
That being said most of the new counterplay to the ruin duo is offensive so I’m not sure how much that helps.
That being said most of the new counterplay to the ruin duo is offensive so I’m not sure how much that helps.
Honestly, what does Zamazenta provide over Iron Valiant, Great Tusk, and even Breloom besides (temporary and marginally better) bulk and natural speed? I was actually gonna say just Hero form, but really Crowned form also has major issues with sweeping. Hero can touch Defensive Gholdango but only with Choice Band, while Crowned can't touch a lot of things but can at least Body Press effectively (or until Clodsire, Dondozo, and Skeledirge show up, and also most Ghost types).
In NatDex, they have things like Pursuit to deal with those Ghost types, and Dondozo can be Toxiced more easily. You don't have that in SV OU, making it much easier to deal with both versions, who really don't provide that much more than current Fighting types.
I think Zama will have a good list of counters, but like ant said above, it will be a "check" if you have one of those pokemon or else it just sweeps your team. It'll be like Ferrothorn in VGC- you HAVE to have a fire move, but once you do you're completely fine, except it's not just a type of move, it's a list of pokemon. Added with tera, which is infuriatingly busted, the counters list gets a lot smaller, ruling out pokemon like Valiant, Ghold, and Moth
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i am for 10000% against the idea for just adding new pokemon down (especially threats) because "technically there is counterplay", yes there are some pokemon that check zamazenta well (until it runs another set lol), but the ones it beats it dominates in a way that... y'know, an Uber does
it can setup on and 1v1 almost the entire tier with room to spare, and that is before accounting for Tera which IIRC Hero is allowed to do
it can setup on and 1v1 almost the entire tier with room to spare, and that is before accounting for Tera which IIRC Hero is allowed to do
I've said it before and I'm saying it again, do NOT let Landorus-I out of ubers. It got nasty plot so it's just gonna be obscene for the 3 days it lasts before a QB
Incredible speed without gimping on power or bulk is a huge difference over the other fighters you listed. They are very difficult to revenge kill because of that exemplary bulk, and with Hero you have a choice band user that runs over offense while not compromising the ability to smash defensive mons. Bolstered further by tera fighting which slams even max def Dondozo for a 2HKO. Crowned Form just boosts with body press and sweeps teams lacking Dondozo, dirge or a ghost, and you can slot crunch if you want to remove them (oh and you didn't need toxic for Don in natdex cuz Don sucks ass there).
They could be tested just to test, but certainly not a smart idea to drop them at the beginning of Home meta, because there will be a shit ton of crazy and broken stuff running around.
It prevents Corviknight's defog and other annoying stuff, but the lack of toxic and knock off hurts a lot its defensive sets so I expect it to run offensive sets most of the time, however it also lost rock polish and explosion which reduces its options even more. Scarf looks like is going to be its most popular set IMO.
User JTD783 (idk how to link profiles) already made a post about mixed scarf greninja but I've been having a lot of fun with this set
mc complex (Greninja) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Protean
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 116 Atk / 140 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Rock Slide
- Low Kick
All of the same shit as the other post but low kick is a super cool move. Sometimes I wish I had grass knot for garg but lock kick is really strong into bax and gambit. Plus scarf lets it outspeed bax even at +1. I generally think gren is a pretty underrated pokemon rn.
mc complex (Greninja) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Protean
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 116 Atk / 140 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Rock Slide
- Low Kick
All of the same shit as the other post but low kick is a super cool move. Sometimes I wish I had grass knot for garg but lock kick is really strong into bax and gambit. Plus scarf lets it outspeed bax even at +1. I generally think gren is a pretty underrated pokemon rn.
That just sounds like every Offensive Pokemon ever. Like Hawlucha isn’t seen as banworthy because the off chance you didn’t prepare for it sweeps your team. What matters more is how easy it is to prepare for offensive Pokemon. And I don’t see how it’s harder to prepare for Zamazenta, even in both forms, than say Iron Valiant for SV OU. Iron Valiant does pretty much everything Zamazenta can do practically. It’s faster, but Zamazenta is forced pretty much run exclusively Choice Band or otherwise it hits things like a pool noodle, or run Rusted Shield where it’s pretty easy to wall even with STAB Iron Defense Body Press. Iron Valiant can afford to not run Choice Band/Specs because it has great coverage that hits everything hard, and can still outspeed it with Booster Energy or Scarf. Sword Dance/Calm Mind is also better than Iron Defense Body Press since it means Iron Valiant boosts/invests into attacks other than just Body Press.
The higher Speed Zama has is also honestly not that impressive compared to Iron Valiant. You outspeed 3 Pokemon, 1 commonly runs Dragon Dance and another runs Scarf as 2nd most common item. And like I said before, Zama is going to pretty much only ever use Choice Band or Rusted Shield, so majority of the time it’s being outsped by Meowscarada, Roaring Moon, and Iron Valiant.
Only thing Zamazenta has over Iron Valiant in practical terms really is natural bulk. And that would be a nice thing with pre-nerf Dauntless Shield. If Zama is forced out once, Hero’s defensive profile becomes pretty mediocre. Crowned still has a great defensive profile for an offensive Pokemon, but at the cost of its offensive profile.
Both Zama forms should at least be suspect tested. Which one to suspect first is hard to say since both seem pretty mid as Fighting types after the nerf.
Ban Enamorus-I
Ban Sneedler
Maybe ban Hoopa-U.
Samurott-H arguably the best out of the non-banned Pokemon.
GameFreak knew what they were doing when they gave Great Tusk 87 Spe.
The higher Speed Zama has is also honestly not that impressive compared to Iron Valiant. You outspeed 3 Pokemon, 1 commonly runs Dragon Dance and another runs Scarf as 2nd most common item. And like I said before, Zama is going to pretty much only ever use Choice Band or Rusted Shield, so majority of the time it’s being outsped by Meowscarada, Roaring Moon, and Iron Valiant.
Only thing Zamazenta has over Iron Valiant in practical terms really is natural bulk. And that would be a nice thing with pre-nerf Dauntless Shield. If Zama is forced out once, Hero’s defensive profile becomes pretty mediocre. Crowned still has a great defensive profile for an offensive Pokemon, but at the cost of its offensive profile.
Both Zama forms should at least be suspect tested. Which one to suspect first is hard to say since both seem pretty mid as Fighting types after the nerf.
When Home eventually comes, I’ll make a list of PLA and old Pokemon and where I think they’ll be. But here is some preview.
Ban Enamorus-I
Ban Sneedler
Maybe ban Hoopa-U.
Samurott-H arguably the best out of the non-banned Pokemon.
GameFreak knew what they were doing when they gave Great Tusk 87 Spe.
Enamorus-I needs to go. Contrary on an actually good pokemon? Yikes. What new tools does Hoopa-U have? also Sneezler will either be really good or extremely gimmicky (prolly just a better hawlucha).
Hoopa-U’s new toy is Terastallization. It can Terastallize in order to actually have resistances, and the give it a third STAB or make one of its own STABs hit even harder. Here is just an example of how strong it is now.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Tera Dark Hoopa-Unbound Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Great Tusk: 292-344 (78.7 - 92.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Tera Dark Hoopa-Unbound Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Great Tusk: 289-341 (66.5 - 78.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after 1 layer of Spikes and Leftovers recovery
It can nearly OHKO Offensive Great Tusk with a resisted attack and cleanly 2HKOs Defensive Great Tusk.
You can Tera Fighting, Poison, Grass, Flying, ect too since its movepool is vast and has many different types to choose from to help its defensive profile.
OOOOH I see. Hoopa-U is quite scary now.
If anyone out there misses scald, infernal parade on h-typholsion is the ghost type scald. 30% chance to burn and a nifty 2x boost if the target is already statused. This pokemon will likely still be kinda ass, but it might be worth noting.
shitty dragapult (Typhlosion-Hisui) @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Blaze
Tera Type: ghost/steel/water/fairy/idfk normal to own pult
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fire Blast
- Infernal Parade
- Substitute
- Calm Mind/will-o-wisp/this things movepool is kinda shallow
With this, you can finally be subpult if it was slower and generally not as good. The aim here is to sub on a pokemon you outspeed or threaten and pray to god they fall asleep at the wheel. As I am writing this I'm wondering why you wouldn't just run sub pult or just wisp over infernal parade but whatever I like smoki over here. He's trying his best. You might be able to hurt tusk on a switch or tera normal vs gholdengo. Maybe once it has some cms set up it might be kinda scary. Sad considering how the other starters look pretty promising.
shitty dragapult (Typhlosion-Hisui) @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Blaze
Tera Type: ghost/steel/water/fairy/idfk normal to own pult
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fire Blast
- Infernal Parade
- Substitute
- Calm Mind/will-o-wisp/this things movepool is kinda shallow
With this, you can finally be subpult if it was slower and generally not as good. The aim here is to sub on a pokemon you outspeed or threaten and pray to god they fall asleep at the wheel. As I am writing this I'm wondering why you wouldn't just run sub pult or just wisp over infernal parade but whatever I like smoki over here. He's trying his best. You might be able to hurt tusk on a switch or tera normal vs gholdengo. Maybe once it has some cms set up it might be kinda scary. Sad considering how the other starters look pretty promising.
:( Typhlosion has a nonexistent move pool. It has a total of 2 coverage moves and tera blast. This is probably gonna be garbage. Maybe UU at best but I don't think it has a lot of potential in OU. It has pretty mid bulk and also pretty mid power.
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