GARCHOMP Tier Discussion Thread

[CLegacyM]

I haven't read everything in this topic, but looking at this:

- Wobbuffet (for the sake that he is Uber at the moment)
- Arceus
- Mewtwo
- Lugia
- Ho-oh
- Rayquaza
- Dialga
- Palkia
- Giratina
- Kyogre
- Groudon
- Dragonite
- Mew
- Tyranitar
- Celebi
- Salamence
- Metagross
- Latios
- Latias
- Deoxys (All forms)
- Jirachi
- Garchomp
- Heatran
- Cresselia
- Manaphy
- Darkrai
- Shaymin

I honestly wouldn't mind having that as the banned list for OU play. Especially if it meant making the game more open and fun. Then you could have much more diverse team with lesser used pokemon.

Obviously not everything on that list is broken. But I am just saying I wouldn't mind if that were the banned list.

 

[Bentendo1]

To all the #'s where you say move beats Garchomp, please add "but only 80%" of the time. Also, it would be nice if you put the stat requirements for healthy garchomp to get OHKO'd by said Ice moves. Ice beam is 266 SpAtt minimum

Why? Ice Shard from CB Weavile is a definite OHKO on 16 HP Garchomp, and it would've been nice, but I don't have the stat requirements off the top of my head.

Why do they only beat it 80% of the time though? >.<

 

[Cynthia]

Garchomp doesn't have any foolproof counters, but then again many OU threats do not. Salamence and Lucario are two examples of Pokemon more versatile and unpredictable than Garchomp, and neither have any sure counters.

Garchomp's obviously a good Pokemon, but isn't impossible to stop. Bulky waters/Cress/Gliscor stop Scarf'd variants cold, and Garchomp pretty much has to lock itself into Outrage to knock out uts biggest threats, leaving it open to revenge kills from priority moves and other scarfers. True, it's stupid to build an OU team that ca';t fight Garchomp, but you are doubtlessly counerting other Pokemon in the process of doing so. It's all about prioritizing your threats.

And if the evasion/luck thing is such an issue, one should remember that Pokemon is game of luck, and sometimes the better player/team does not always win. Garchomp is far less luck-based than things like Togekiss anyway.

 

[xcfrisco]

Why? Ice Shard from CB Weavile is a definite OHKO on 16 HP Garchomp, and it would've been nice, but I don't have the stat requirements off the top of my head.

Why do they only beat it 80% of the time though? >.<

Sand Veil raises evasion +20% in a sandstorm.

And I just wanted you to see that it takes A LOT of attack/sp.att to OHKO Garchomp. The worst part is how pokemon that have STAB to lessen this statistical need (and Flying pokemon that used avoid EQ's for free) have Stealth Rock to contend with.

And if the evasion/luck thing is such an issue, one should remember that Pokemon is game of luck, and sometimes the better player/team does not always win. Garchomp is far less luck-based than things like Togekiss anyway.

Togekiss typically needs way more instances of luck for it to be as "successful" as Garchomp. One missed Ice move is usually all it takes for Chomp to start sweeping for free.

 

[Bologo]

I actually do agree that Togekiss is much more luck based. ScarfKiss is a friggin nightmare to face since a majority of its opponents only have a 40% chance of hitting it.

At least against Garchomp the chance of hitting is over 50%.

There's a lot of pokemon you NEED to counter besides Garchomp on your teams anyway, such as Blissey, Infernape, Tyranitar, Gyarados, etc.

Do remember that for a long while, Gyarados was #3 before Garchomp took it over. I didn't see anyone saying anything about it when it was that high though.

Heh, Garchomp isn't totally awful, except for the subbing versions which are ass. I'll admit that it's most likely the most threatening thing in OU right now. But in everything, there's gotta be someone at the top. That goes for pokemon too.

 

[Bentendo1]

Sand Veil raises evasion +20% in a sandstorm.

And I just wanted you to see that it takes A LOT of attack/sp.att to OHKO Garchomp. The worst part is how pokemon that have STAB to lessen this statistical need (and Flying pokemon that used avoid EQ's for free) have Stealth Rock to contend with.

Yeah, that's assuming SS is even out. Garchomp is quite bulky, but not uncounterable. Chances are that Ice Shard will hit and Garchomp's dead. Or (on a less serious note,) you could find an Abomasnow. :naughty:

 

[Astamatitos]

Cresselia counters all Garchomps . Bronzong can come on everything except fire . Other than that you can always murder a garchomp that is locked on outrage quite easily.... I don't see any reason for it being Uber.

 

[xcfrisco]

Do remember that for a long while, Gyarados was #3 before Garchomp took it over. I didn't see anyone saying anything about it when it was that high though.

Heh, Garchomp isn't totally awful, except for the subbing versions which are ass. I'll admit that it's most likely the most threatening thing in OU right now. But in everything, there's gotta be someone at the top. That goes for pokemon too.

I'll admit that I REALLY REALLY wanted to start this thread, but i honestly thought I'd get no support and I wanted to save my arguments for a time when I thought they would actually DO something :/

I've always thought Garchomp to be the most garbage, broken thing in the metagame (Stealth Rock is next), but like I said, I pretty much would have no proof or support. As long as all bodes well, I'll think we'll see Garchomp stay on top for a really really long time. People are starting to see (good players and terrible players alike) that if they want to have the best chances in winning a pokemon match, they should use Garchomp.

Cresselia counters all Garchomps.

Can people please stop saying this. Cresselia has the worst recovery move ever and is weak to pursuit. CBChomp murders Cresselia with Crunch and Cresselia has to be Modest just to have a shot at OHKOing Garchomp, severly hampering its tanking ability.

Great end all counter to Garchomp right there.

 

[1059860]

Why? Ice Shard from CB Weavile is a definite OHKO on 16 HP Garchomp, and it would've been nice, but I don't have the stat requirements off the top of my head.

Why do they only beat it 80% of the time though? >.<

Sand Veil gives 20% evasion rate to Garchomp in Sandstorm.

 

[1059860]

Cresselia counters all Garchomps . Bronzong can come on everything except fire . Other than that you can always murder a garchomp that is locked on outrage quite easily.... I don't see any reason for it being Uber.

Cresselia can counter all Garchomps... Where did you get that idea from? Garchomp can 2HKO Cresselia.

 

[Bologo]

Can people please stop saying this. Cresselia has the worst recovery move ever and is weak to pursuit. CBChomp murders Cresselia with Crunch and Cresselia has to be Modest just to have a shot at OHKOing Garchomp, severly hampering its tanking ability.

Great end all counter to Garchomp right there.

Heh, there's not even any point to using Crunch for Cresselia anyway. Outrage has more BP after STAB anyway.

 

[Blue Harvest]

Sand Veil gives 20% evasion rate to Garchomp in Sandstorm.

So 80% of the time Garchomp dies?

 

[1059860]

So 80% of the time Garchomp dies?

No, so 80% of the time a move HITS. And when something hits doesn't mean it's a TKO.

 

[X-Act]

To whoever says that Dragonite can do the same thing as Garchomp... no he can't.

Garchomp has Swords Dance and 102 base Speed, while Dragonite has Dragon Dance and 80 base Speed. Which do you prefer?

Dragonite's base Speed being only 80 compared to Garchomp's 102 makes a HELL of a LOT of difference!

 

[xcfrisco]

Heh, there's not even any point to using Crunch for Cresselia anyway. Outrage has more BP after STAB anyway.

Getting locked into Outrage really sucks though and allows Chomp to get killed easier. Crunch makes sure Cresselia gets hit hard when it switches in, and the next pokemon too, leaving you free to switch whenever you desire.

 

[Ash Borer]

If it was CB, Crunch would've 2HKO'd you.

who uses freakin CB and crunch, and decides to predict and say i think he'll send in celebi! i use crunch! i know that celebi has hp ice its a standard move! i switch!!

ok, no.. what if a had a dark reducing berry then i counter it, 99.9% of garchomps dont carry CB and a lot of chomps dont carry crunch. stone edge, dragon claw, fire blast, and outrage are superior choices IMO. Garchomp has no solid counter, like t-tar, and salamence but they are countered.

A lot is situational, some things dont have solid counters.

 

[obi]

I believe Garchomp to be more deserving of being uber than Kyogre, Lugia, Deoxys-D, Deoxys-S, Wobbuffet, Dialga, Tyranitar, Togekiss, Celebi, Jirachi, and others. I believe I explained this in my "What is uber" thread. To me, it makes no sense to have any of those be uber and allow Garchomp. I am firmly convinced that Garchomp would be uber if it showed up on the overland screen and was a one-time-catch.

 

[CLegacyM]

I already posted this in another topic, but let's say you DO get a counter in against Garchomp. Let's say it has Brightpowder. That means you have a 72% chance of hitting from the start. Let's do the math...if it has say, oh, I don't know, Swords dance.

You come in on the SD and it has sub.

.7 x .7 x .7 x .7 = .24

So you officially have a 24 % chance of hitting its substitute, unless you are faster. If you are faster you are risking coming in against an attack rather than a swords dance.

At the same time, lets say you hit all four in a row. That means that you have a 15% chance of hitting it on that last attack (where it will obviously be attacking). Are those good odds?

Let's look at it without Brightpowder, even.

.8 x .8 x .8 x .8 = 40%

So a 40% chance of hitting it 4 times in a row without brightpowder, and a 32% chance of hitting it 5 times in a row without brightpowder, meaning it will have gotten enough for another sub if it is holding leftovers, so you would need to hit it 6 times in a row. Which has, wow, a 26% chance of success.

Where are your counters now? Bronzong or Skarmory you say! Great idea. So now every team has to carry Bronzong or because of the potential threat that Garchomp poses? If that's not overcentralizing...

 

[xcfrisco]

who uses freakin CB and crunch, and decides to predict and say i think he'll send in celebi! i use crunch! i know that celebi has hp ice its a standard move! i switch!!

ok, no.. what if a had a dark reducing berry then i counter it, 99.9% of garchomps dont carry CB and a lot of chomps dont carry crunch. stone edge, dragon claw, fire blast, and outrage are superior choices IMO. Garchomp has no solid counter, like t-tar, and salamence but they are countered.

A lot is situational, some things dont have solid counters.

rofl, crunch is standard on the smogon analysis page for CBchomp, an amazing set. For your information, I ONLY use Cbchomp and its so funny whenever a trainer tries to switch-in their psychic wall only to get RAPED.

Your second paragraph is so absolutely ridiculous, I dont know where to start. First, putting Hp Ice and a dark resist berry (that only works once) on Celebi just to counter Garchomp is the VERY DEFINITION of over-centralizing the metagame. Second, where did you 99.9% from? Did you poll everyone who uses Garchomp? No, you completely made a ridiculous statement that no one uses CBChomp. I'll bet you a thousand dollars more than 0.01% of Garchomp users use CB. Third, no one is arguing that a lot of pokemon don't have solid counters. But not only does Garchomp not have a solid counter, his "counters" practically miss 20% off the time! Please read the entire thread next time to see all the arguments about why people are complaining about Garchomp being broken.

/end rant.

 

[1059860]

rofl, crunch is standard on the smogon analysis page for CBchomp, an amazing set. For your information, I ONLY use Cbchomp and its so funny whenever a trainer tries to switch-in their psychic wall only to get RAPED.

Your second paragraph is so absolutely ridiculous, I dont know where to start. First, putting Hp Ice and a dark resist berry (that only works once) on Celebi just to counter Garchomp is the VERY DEFINITION of over-centralizing the metagame. Second, where did you 99.9% from? Did you poll everyone who uses Garchomp? No, you completely made a ridiculous statement that no one uses CBChomp. I'll bet you a thousand dollars more than 0.01% of Garchomp users use CB. Third, no one is arguing that a lot of pokemon don't have solid counters. But not only does Garchomp not have a solid counter, his "counters" practically miss 20% off the time! Please read the entire thread next time to see all the arguments about why people are complaining about Garchomp being broken.

/end rant.

Exactly. You can explain much better than I can. Haha.

 

[oPlaiD]

There's a lot of pokemon you NEED to counter besides Garchomp on your teams anyway, such as Blissey, Infernape, Tyranitar, Gyarados, etc.

Do remember that for a long while, Gyarados was #3 before Garchomp took it over. I didn't see anyone saying anything about it when it was that high though.

How is this relevant to the argument?

The fact that people actually ARE saying that Garchomp should be removed from OU when someone like Gyarados never had that problem suggests that there really are grounds to do such a thing.


Personally, I'd like to see a metagame without Garchomp. His combination of stats and typing make him more powerful than any other Pokemon out there.

In Pokemon there are general archetypes of Pokemon. Generally Pokemon follow a pattern: they have two of the positive traits and one of the negative ones listed below.

Good - Bulky, Fast, Hard-Hitting
Bad - Frail, Slow, Weak,

No Pokemon in the OU metagame really defies this convention better than Garchomp, and when that's combined with his typing, it's even more insane!

He's slightly bulkier than Swampert with gigantic attack and more than 100 speed!

Any other Pokemon with similar characteristics would probably have an unusable SA stat, and, while Garchomp's isn't spectacular, it's usable because of it's typing, giving it the overpowered move Draco Meteor, and the fact that anything hoping to survive its STAB is weak to Fire Blast.

When I build a team nowadays, the only Pokemon I really take a hard look at specifically is Garchomp.

As a competitive person who always wants to win, I feel almost forced to include Garchomp in any team I create because it's just that good. Even stall teams, if they're running sandstorm, can fit a Garchomp on their team with his strong defenses, trait, and ability to finish opponents.

 

[joshua]

Garchomp also lacks a Stealth Rock weakness like Gyarados, Dragonite, Salamence and Togekiss which means it can switch in more regularly without rapid spin support.

 

[Trust]

IMO Garchomp is overcentrazing the metagame. 80% of the Garchomps I've seen are a Scarfchomp, 15% SDchomp and 5% other sets. It has no real counters. While Heracross is absolutely countered by Gliscor, Togekiss could be stoped by Blissey and Cresselia if they don't have too bad lucky, Inferanpe is countered by Gyarados, Gyarados is killed by a good electric attack, etc... Garchomp can be countered by an Ice attack, but Sand Veil + Brightpowder is strong enough to think about Uber status. There isn't a solid counter to Garchomp.

 

[Gandalf the blue]

Most people are in favor of pushing Chomp to Ubers, so lets do it^^
Or give him Sturdy/keen eye instead of Sand Veil and take Outrage.
Seriously, Dragonite is the only Pokemon which should have Outrage.
Garchomps already looks like an aggrseive Shark, but imo Outrage means a friendly Pokemon enrages and increases its power.

 

[umbarsc]

I think people are exaggerating Garchomp a bit. I see no problem with sending my Cresselia against a Garchomp, throwing a Reflect up, then stalling it with Moonlight before I eventually kill it with Ice Beam. I have a Sunny Day user on several of my teams for another Pokemon anyways, so I'm not too worried about Sandstorm. This only fails against Choice Banded ones using Crunch or Outrage, but a Choiced, unSTAB'd Crunch just screams "set up on me!", and Outrage means you can send in Weavile or Starmie (or Gengar, Raikou, Jolteon, Sceptile, Floatzel, or even Deoxys-E) and use an Ice attack for an easy revenge-kill. Plus the Choice Bander isn't even standard.

If it doesn't a hold a Scarf, it's easy to revenge-kill. If it doesn't have Choice Band or Swords Dance, it's easy to counter. I'm actually more afraid of Dragonite, because once that thing gets a Dragon Dance, or possibly two with the help of Yache Berry, it's very, very hard to avoid getting swept with Outrage. That thing cleans up late game, because it doesn't care if you send out your 25% Raikou with Hidden Power Ice.