GARCHOMP Tier Discussion Thread

[RaikouLover]

I'm pretty upset that I lost a battle to garchomp yesterday when I should've won...

I had a full health Celebi and a 10% health specs Jolteon
My opponent had a 35% health Tyranitar and 30% health Garchomp.

Of course it was sandstorm. This is how it went:

I let something die and sent my full health bulky Celebi out to finish off the game.

Garchomp used Outrage! (60% damage to Celebi, so it's banded)
Celebi used Grass Knot!
Celebi's attack missed!
Garchomp used Outrage!
Celebi fainted!
Go Jolteon!
Jolteon used Hidden Power (at this point I lost, because it won't kill Tar)
Jolteon's attack missed!
Garchomp used Outrage!
I lose!

fuck that thing...

Ironically, my rain dance team eats him for lunch. With no sand, he is easily outsped and fucked in the ass before he can do anything. And he can't be haxxy.

 

[Kira]

Yes but if we are forced to have a weather changing move for the purpose of countering 1 POKEMON (not even a handful, just this one fucking pokemon) then that proves it is too powerful for OU.

 

[Qyyu]

Almost completely forgot about the one counter that kills Garchomp....other Garchomp. Fight fire with fire. An adamant scarf chomp is killed by a jolly scarf chomp etc. The reason why people only mention one part of Garchomp is because the offensive sets are used more often then the defensive sets.

Also theres no need to insult me Kira.....or should I just insult you back?

 

[Kira]

Again we shouldnt all have to use Garchomp or it just further proves that it is too good for OU... and then it turns into a game of luck to see who can get past sand veil hax first and KO the other one.

Aslo no you shouldnt insult me, but you should learn to know what the fuck you are talking about. Gamefreak doesnt care about balance or Arceus would not be the greatest pokemon in existence. And just because Cynthia used an uber does not mean they would make her use every uber in the game.

 

[umbarsc]

Gyara does not have the almost unresisted combo of STAB dragon and ground type attacks. He does not have Fire Fang to kill Skarmory or bronzong. He is raped by Stealth Rock.

No, he cannot properly utilize the nearly unresisted Dragon + Ground combination, but he does have the nearly unresisted Water + Normal combination. No, he doesn't have Fire Fang to kill Skarmory/Bronzong, but he has an infinitely better option in Taunt. Yes, he is raped by Stealth Rock, but he isn't raped by Spikes.

 

[xcfrisco]

I hope all the mods and people who control Shoddy are looking at this thread. Its generated 227 responses in LESS than 24 hours. Obviously Shoddy in itself is in the process of deteremining Wobb's vaibility. But I hope that all the points in this thread are enough to justify a Garchomp test in the near future.

Most importantly, when this thread does eventually die, I hope all the mods/heads dont write this off so this thread has to be made all over again.

I think there is more than sufficient evidence in here to doubt Garchomp's viability in OU. I have yet to hear one sustainable arguement about how Garchomp is any less broken than the pokemon banned in Ubers.

 

[nive]

yeah garchomp needs to be tested in uber because he can take hits pretty well and 2HKO most walls with his large move pool

 

[evolutia]

Almost completely forgot about the one counter that kills Garchomp....other Garchomp. Fight fire with fire. An adamant scarf chomp is killed by a jolly scarf chomp etc. The reason why people only mention one part of Garchomp is because the offensive sets are used more often then the defensive sets.

Also theres no need to insult me Kira.....or should I just insult you back?

If we went along with your concept of "Fighting Fire with Fire" we could unban every single pokemon because they can take out each other.

 

[RaikouLover]

Yes, but with Gyarados you can slap Hidden Power Electric on every pokemon and not have to worry about it missing. Garchomp is also faster, and doesn't always have to rely on a Dragon Dance to be a huge threat to a team.

 

[umbarsc]

I hope all the mods and people who control Shoddy are looking at this thread. Its generated 227 responses in LESS than 24 hours. Obviously Shoddy in itself is in the process of deteremining Wobb's vaibility. But I hope that all the points in this thread are enough to justify a Garchomp test in the near future.

Most importantly, when this thread does eventually die, I hope all the mods/heads dont write this off so this thread has to be made all over again.

I think there is more than sufficient evidence in here to doubt Garchomp's viability in OU. I have yet to hear one sustainable arguement about how Garchomp is any less broken than the pokemon banned in Ubers.

I disagree. A lot of this thread has been argued in ignorance. The whole thing has been terribly redundant, and have came up with shitty arguments that are terribly biased and should be written off with an infraction. The fact of the matter is, we've allowed Garchomp in OU thus far, and I don't see how a bunch of '07ers (and yes, I'm aware of the irony) crying at Sand Veil should change anything.

Yes, but with Gyarados you can slap Hidden Power Electric on every pokemon and not have to worry about it missing. Garchomp is also faster, and doesn't always have to rely on a Dragon Dance to be a huge threat to a team.

That has to be the absolute worst logic ever. "It is only threatening if it uses standard move X or Y" is idiocy. Why aren't you focusing on how dangerous it is to teams with Dragon Dance, rather than looking at the fact that it has to use that move to be dangerous? (Which isn't altogether true, I used Thunder Wave/Taunt/Stone Edge/Waterfall with moderate success).

 

[xcfrisco]

No, he cannot properly utilize the nearly unresisted Dragon + Ground combination, but he does have the nearly unresisted Water + Normal combination. No, he doesn't have Fire Fang to kill Skarmory/Bronzong, but he has an infinitely better option in Taunt. Yes, he is raped by Stealth Rock, but he isn't raped by Spikes.

Apples to oranges, there are plenty of reasons why Gyarados isn't as good as Garchomp. Here's two of them:

Gyarados' most powerful attack are at 120 bp and 102 bp after STAB, Garchomp's are 180bp and 150bp.

STEALTH ROCK. It only takes one turn to set up. For spikes to have the same effect to Garchomp as SR to Gyarados, you need three turns. Thats a monumental difference.

 

[Kira]

If we went along with your concept of "Fighting Fire with Fire" we could unban every single pokemon because they can take out each other.

Exactly... Except Arceus because he could be any type. But yeah, I want my Kyogre/Manaphy in OU because they can just be countered by another Kyogre/Manaphy...

 

[xcfrisco]

I disagree. A lot of this thread has been argued in ignorance. The whole thing has been terribly redundant, and have came up with shitty arguments that are terribly biased and should be written off with an infraction. The fact of the matter is, we've allowed Garchomp in OU thus far, and I don't see how a bunch of '07ers (and yes, I'm aware of the irony) crying at Sand Veil should change anything.

By that same logic, why bother testing Deoxys and Wobbuffet back into OU? They started out as Ubers (Wobbuffet even had his own test on Smogon!), but are now seeing play on Shoddy's OU ladder.

How can you explain that? We can apply the same principles to determine if Garchomp is too broken for OU.

 

[Xênaz]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't most teams have to pack two Pokémon to prepare for one due to many different sets? For example, no one has Gliscor as their only preparation for Lucario since if it is Spec'd it can OHKO with Hidden Power Ice. With that being said, don't Hippowdon and Skarmory counter Garchomp together? Hippowdon can counter Choice versions and Skarmory can counter Substitute versions thanks to Whirlwind. Is this not true?

With that being said, I am 100% in favor of banning luck hax items such as Brightpowder. I'd rather focus more on skill than luck any day.

 

[Kira]

By that same logic, why bother testing Deoxys and Wobbuffet back into OU? They started out as Ubers (Wobbuffet even had his own test on Smogon!), but are now seeing play on Shoddy's OU ladder.

How can you explain that? We can apply the same principles to determine if Garchomp is too broken for OU.

No but you see. We should just stick with the standards and never test anything ever again... thats the true way to find tier placement. By not testing them you are ensuring that the tiers will be as screwed up as possible, which is perfect for the metagame. :naughty:

 

[obi]

The fact of the matter is, we've allowed Garchomp in OU thus far, and I don't see how a bunch of '07ers (and yes, I'm aware of the irony) crying at Sand Veil should change anything.

Ideas should be judged on their merit, not by how long the person posting them has been registered.

 

[umbarsc]

By that same logic, why bother testing Deoxys and Wobbuffet back into OU? They started out as Ubers (Wobbuffet even had his own test on Smogon!), but are now seeing play on Shoddy's OU ladder.

How can you explain that? We can apply the same principles to determine if Garchomp is too broken for OU.

Nope, that is a reverse scenario. Garchomp is tested in the OU environment, is deemed to be very good but not too broken. Wobbuffet and Deoxys-E aren't given sufficient testing, and are just moved into ubers automatically. (To be fair, Wobbuffet was tested in the first Smogon WiFi tourney, but wasn't analyzed much)

 

[xcfrisco]

With that being said, don't Hippowdon and Skarmory counter Garchomp together? Hippowdon can counter Choice versions and Skarmory can counter Substitute versions thanks to Whirlwind. Is this not true?

Those two pokemon get owned by SDchomp EQ and Fire Fang.

 

[Bogmire]

Apples to oranges, there are plenty of reasons why Gyarados isn't as good as Garchomp. Here's two of them:

Gyarados' most powerful attack are at 120 bp and 102 bp after STAB, Garchomp's are 180bp and 150bp.

STEALTH ROCK. It only takes one turn to set up. For spikes to have the same effect to Garchomp as SR to Gyarados, you need three turns. Thats a monumental difference.

don't forget aqua tail, it's 135 bp. I've seen a few people use it on shoddy

 

[1059860]

No, he cannot properly utilize the nearly unresisted Dragon + Ground combination, but he does have the nearly unresisted Water + Normal combination. No, he doesn't have Fire Fang to kill Skarmory/Bronzong, but he has an infinitely better option in Taunt. Yes, he is raped by Stealth Rock, but he isn't raped by Spikes.

Last time I checked Gyarados is Water/Flying not Water/Normal.

 

[umbarsc]

Ideas should be judged on their merit, not by how long the person posting them has been registered.

Precisely why the sentence wasn't "I don't see why people from 07 should be allowed to discuss these things", which is would be very ironic. My post was more about people who were inexperienced to the community bringing up topics that have already been thoroughly discussed, without bringing any new arguments, or even valid ones. (I'm not counting "OMG, it's not fair when Ice Beam misses four times in a row!")

 

[RaikouLover]

don't forget aqua tail, it's 135 bp. I've seen a few people use it on shoddy

Aqua Tail sucks. 90% accuracy on a main sweeping move is meh, and it has no flinch rate like waterfall does.

 

[Kira]

Nope, that is a reverse scenario. Garchomp is tested in the OU environment, is deemed to be very good but not too broken. Wobbuffet and Deoxys-E aren't given sufficient testing, and are just moved into ubers automatically. (To be fair, Wobbuffet was tested in the first Smogon WiFi tourney, but wasn't analyzed much)

And how was Deoxys S pushed up to ubers without any testing? Because he is legendary? Last time I checked not all legendary pokemon were just pushed right into ubers.

Also I am an 08 user and I still now a lot about the metagame. I mean just because I am new on the forum does not mean I am new to pokemon. Same with other 07 users that you accuse of "not knowing anything"

 

[xcfrisco]

Nope, that is a reverse scenario. Garchomp is tested in the OU environment, is deemed to be very good but not too broken. Wobbuffet and Deoxys-E aren't given sufficient testing, and are just moved into ubers automatically. (To be fair, Wobbuffet was tested in the first Smogon WiFi tourney, but wasn't analyzed much)

How was Garchomp ever "tested"? If anything, I see garchomp as never being contested because its such a good pokemon that isn't legendary. Wobbuffet is the only non-legendary pokemon that always gets the ban-stick (and its being tested right now) for obvious reasons.

I think Obi is onto something when he states that if Garchomp was a one-time final evolution poke, he would've gotten the ban-hammer right away.

There are more biases in keeping Garchomp OU than moving him to Ubers, way more.

 

[Evisu]

I don't think that he should be uber, because he would never be used. My friends and I have always thought there should be some tier between OU and Ubers. Pokemon like Manaphy etc would be placed here along with pokemon that are just a little too good for OU. I personally think most pokemon with 600+ stats no matter how easily countered they should not be in the same tier as pokemon with 530 or less. That's just my 2 cents, but I do agree something should be done about Garchomp.