GARCHOMP Tier Discussion Thread

[Kira]

I don't think that he should be uber, because he would never be used. My friends and I have always thought there should be some tier between OU and Ubers. Pokemon like Manaphy etc would be placed here along with pokemon that are just a little too good for OU. I personally think most pokemon with 600+ stats no matter how easily countered they are should not be in the same tier as pokemon with 530 or less. That's just my 2 cents, but I do agree something should be done about Garchomp.

Ok so you are saying it is better to have a pokemon that is clearly to strong for OU in OU just because it would fail to be the dominating force it used to be?

That is a pretty crap reason to not move it up.

I do agree that there should be a tier in between OU and Ubers but I think it would require too much work to make a whole new tier from scratch.

 

[Mekkah]

I don't think that he should be uber, because he would never be used.

This isn't a democracy where every Pokemon should be given equal chance at being used. With this logic, we would have no BL tier.

Basing your tiering solely on BST isn't going to work either. Shaymin, Celebi or Jirachi being in a tier above something like Togekiss or Heracross is ridiculous.

 

[Evisu]

Ok so you are saying it is better to have a pokemon that is clearly to strong for OU in OU just because it would fail to be the dominating force it used to be?

That is a pretty crap reason to not move it up.

I do agree that there should be a tier in between OU and Ubers but I think it would require too much work to make a whole new tier from scratch.

I never said it should remain, I suggested a new tier. "/

Yeah a new tier would be hard to organize but I think it should recieve some consideration.

 

[Bologo]

And how was Deoxys S pushed up to ubers without any testing? Because he is legendary? Last time I checked not all legendary pokemon were just pushed right into ubers.

Actually yes, Deoxys-S was pushed right into ubers because he's a form of Deoxys, and didn't receive any testing whatsoever, so I hope that answered your question.

Guys, just so you remember, we usually need 2 pokemon to counter crap like Breloom and Gengar as well. One to take the sleep, and then one to actually give the hit. How is Garchomp any different? You need 2 pokemon to wall everything that it can do, but if you have 2 pokemon that can counter it together, then that allows them more flexibility to counter other threats as well.

Don't forget that Garchomp needs to switch in as well, and Ground/Dragon really isn't exactly the best defensive typing out there, taking neutral hits from damn near everything. Garchomp's defenses are good, but there are extremely strong pokemon out there that can slice off at least 50% when Garchomp switches in, which doesn't give him very many switch-in opprtunities given the more offensive nature of the game. He can come in on Thunder Wave, but most likely, if the opponent knows you have Garchomp, they'll be careful.

 

[Brawley]

I really like that idea...., the metagame would be a lot more diverse that way, take a look at your team, and see how many 600 pokes you have, most people have at least one, I have 5 ._.

 

[Kira]

Actually yes, Deoxys-S was pushed right into ubers because he's a form of Deoxys, and didn't receive any testing whatsoever, so I hope that answered your question.

Guys, just so you remember, we usually need 2 pokemon to counter crap like Breloom and Gengar as well. One to take the sleep, and then one to actually give the hit. How is Garchomp any different? You need 2 pokemon to wall everything that it can do, but if you have 2 pokemon that can counter it together, then that allows them more flexibility to counter other threats as well.

Don't forget that Garchomp needs to switch in as well, and Ground/Dragon really isn't exactly the best defensive typing out there, taking neutral hits from damn near everything. Garchomp's defenses are good, but there are extremely strong pokemon out there that can slice off at least 50% when Garchomp switches in, which doesn't give him very many switch-in opprtunities given the more offensive nature of the game. He can come in on Thunder Wave, but most likely, if the opponent knows you have Garchomp, they'll be careful.

Garchomp has the ability to take a hit. Something that Gengar and Breloom dont have. Celebi can 100% counter Breloom while nothing 100% counters Garchomp.

Also if Deoxys S was pushed right into ubers, then Garchomp was pushed right into OU because he was not a legendary.

 

[Mekkah]

Guys, just so you remember, we usually need 2 pokemon to counter crap like Breloom and Gengar as well. One to take the sleep, and then one to actually give the hit. How is Garchomp any different? You need 2 pokemon to wall everything that it can do, but if you have 2 pokemon that can counter it together, then that allows them more flexibility to counter other threats as well.

I would agree with the point, but not with the logic. For one, taking a sleep move is nowhere near comparable to, say, switching into the wrong version of a Garchomp. A sleep may fail due to Hypnosis' inaccuracy, Insomnia, it may be a lot less effective due to Sleep Talk, or it may be cured later with Aromatherapy. If your first counter to Garchomp doesn't suffice, chances are Garchomp will just tear it up nicely.

 

[xcfrisco]

Basing your tiering solely on BST isn't going to work either. Shaymin, Celebi or Jirachi being in a tier above something like Togekiss or Heracross is ridiculous.

I dont see how its anymore ridiculous than the clausefest that is competitive pokemon. I think it would be a pretty "neat" metagame actually, it probably play a lot slower and lean toward conservative play again like in GSC. This doesn't really go with Smogon's pokemon "philosophy" however.

 

[Mekkah]

The differerence is that BST is nowhere near the whole picture of how good a Pokemon is compared to others. With the logic is making an entire tier above the normal OU one but below the real uber one solely based on 600 BST, a Pokemon like Unown with 600 BST would be above normal monsters such as, say, PorygonZ.

 

[Brawley]

Or we could just leave Heatran, Jirachi, Shaymin, and Celebi alone, and ban the other ones, I don't know, seems like a funny idea, but it could work, but I doubt it...

 

[Evisu]

"If" he does get bumped to Ubers, this would most likely open a flood gate of threads; people would make threads over and over suggesting other pokemon to ban from OU Gengar, Blissey, Skarmory etc. So I think it really may be best to just leave it alone.

 

[xcfrisco]

Guys, just so you remember, we usually need 2 pokemon to counter crap like Breloom and Gengar as well. One to take the sleep, and then one to actually give the hit. How is Garchomp any different? You need 2 pokemon to wall everything that it can do, but if you have 2 pokemon that can counter it together, then that allows them more flexibility to counter other threats as well.

Don't forget that Garchomp needs to switch in as well, and Ground/Dragon really isn't exactly the best defensive typing out there, taking neutral hits from damn near everything. Garchomp's defenses are good, but there are extremely strong pokemon out there that can slice off at least 50% when Garchomp switches in, which doesn't give him very many switch-in opportunities given the more offensive nature of the game. He can come in on Thunder Wave, but most likely, if the opponent knows you have Garchomp, they'll be careful.

I think your looking at it the wrong way. Most other pokemon that need two pokemon in order to be "countered" don't pose the danger that Garchomp does and get walled a lot easier. I think the best competive team that covers Garchomp is Obi's stall team (and that has three garchomp counters just to deal with him!). Garchomp is the best at what it does, sweeping unprepared/unlucky teams which equals win for you.

Garchomp also doesn't need to "switch-in" to be the threat that it is. How many of those offensive pokes that do 50% go running for the hills as soon as they see Garchomp? A LOT of them. Having 180bp and 150bp moves that give unparalled covereage should scare any pokemon. Its as if you constantly need to sacrifice pokemon just so you can damage Garchomp and then send in your Ice user to pray that Ice move hits AND delivers the finishing blow.

"If" he does get bumped to Ubers, this would most likely open a flood gate of threads; people would make threads over and over suggesting other pokemon to ban from OU Gengar, Blissey, Skarmory etc. So I think it really may be best to just leave it alone.

None of those pokemon are broken in todays OU metagame. Tyranitar would probably be next to warrant discussion and theres absolutely nothing wrong with that (discussion is healthy)

 

[Kira]

"If" he does get bumped to Ubers, this would most likely open a flood gate of threads; people would make threads over and over suggesting other pokemon to ban from OU Gengar, Blissey, Skarmory etc. So I think it really may be best to just leave it alone.

The stupidest thing I ever heard. Gengar cannot sweep entire teams. It cannot take a hit, calm mind up, and does not have an almost unbeatable stab combo.

Blissey is not over-centralizing because it is almost necessary because Special attacks now hit so much harder. Without her the special attacking pokemon would dominate the metagame even with Cresselia and Snorlax because those two do not have a reliable recovery move.

Moonlight is somewhat reliable but fails in sandstrom which is very common. Restalk can easily be set up on by certain pokemon and is also unreliable.

Skarmory is just a wall and dies to physical attacks, and he loses to Banded Heracross if he switches in. Skarmory is nowhere near as useful as he once was.

 

[Instinctive]

Umm...I believe Garchomp is pretty overcentralizing. Now, its too bad that it doesn't have another ability (WTF Nintendo?) or we could just ban Sand Veil. As it is, Brightpowder is definitely way haxxy and relies on a lot of luck to win.

Every team needs to carry Starmie, Weavile, Swine, or something faster with an Ice Attack that can at leats be used to Revenge-force out.

I have two ways that I deal with a Garchomp: Sac or do something to lock into into Outrage, get in my Sub Heatran, use W-o-W, and then either switch out or Sub, depending on if Chomp is Choiced and the Outrage is over yet or not.

Also, even though I support, aren't we going about the math all wrong for the miss chances???????

The 80% doesn't compound every time. It is always a 20% miss chance (w/o BP), and that chance never compounds. Its nice to say there is onlya 40% chance to kill it, but it really is a bunch of 80% chances, as each time you attack does not increase or decrease the miss chance for the next attack.

 

[Evisu]

The stupidest thing I ever heard. Gengar cannot sweep entire teams. It cannot take a hit, calm mind up, and does not have an almost unbeatable stab combo.

Blissey is not over-centralizing because it is almost necessary because Special attacks now hit so much harder. Without her the special attacking pokemon would dominate the metagame even with Cresselia and Snorlax because those two do not have a reliable recovery move.

Moonlight is somewhat reliable but fails in sandstrom which is very common. Restalk can easily be set up on by certain pokemon and is also unreliable.

Skarmory is just a wall and dies to physical attacks, and he loses to Banded Heracross if he switches in. Skarmory is nowhere near as useful as he once was.

Gengar can't sweep a team? That's news to me. I wasn't stating that any of these pokemon were broken etc. I was simply saying people may try to get more things they consider broken banned. Stop taking what I say out of context or twisting it around, thanks.

 

[xcfrisco]

Blissey is not over-centralizing because it is almost necessary because Special attacks now hit so much harder. Without her the special attacking pokemon would dominate the metagame even with Cresselia and Snorlax because those two do not have a reliable recovery move.

I dont agree with this sentiment about Blissey being neccessary and that's why it stays in our metagame. Blissey just isn't broken.

 

[Seph]

This thread is really getting out of hand and isn't accomplishing anything. There have been so many off topic and horrible posts in here. Closed.