Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v2 [Update on Post #5186]

[Trogba Trogba]

Peaked at 2012 elo today playing around 20 games using a ho team with screens, shift cm mag, ursaluna and sneasler. My thoughts atm on problematic mons.
Magearna - broken mon needs to go, give it a single free turn and you will probably lose to shift cm. Cheap mon, you can play like ass for 30 turns and still win.
Regieleki - hasn't been as completely overwhelming as I thought it would be but pretty sure it's broken.

Ursaluna - unwallable, gets a kill 90% of the time it comes in, eats hits for days - send it to ubers.

Chien Pao - not that bad atm with mag on every team, will be broken after the other brokens get removed.

Zamazenta - I thought it would be pretty mid, but iron defense sets are actually incredibly difficult to deal with especially with tera. Probably broken with tera, fine without.

Sneasler - really tricky to deal with unburden sets behind screens. Hits like a truck. I think it's not "clearly broken" but definitely could be.

I think at this point a lot of what is pushing stuff over the edge of is tera. I think after a few weeks of letting the meta settle and banning the broken mons, we need another tera suspect.

 

[Loginator]

Bro contrary to what a lot of people said, without LR Basculegion is just slower floatzel with secondary ghost typing but lacking ghost stab

Its still stronger. Lacking a good secondary stab is better than no secondary stab. At least it can use Tera Blast or funny mixed Shadow Ball. I can’t see Floatzel being better than this. Either they’re both used simultaneously or Basculegion is better.

 

[SnackWasTaken]

Its still stronger. Lacking a good secondary stab is better than no secondary stab. At least it can use Tera Blast or funny mixed Shadow Ball. I can’t see Floatzel being better than this. Either they’re both used simultaneously or Basculegion is better.

Floatzel’s much faster. The two have their ups and downs, but I’d go with floatzel at the end of the day.

 

[Loginator]

Floatzel’s much faster. The two have their ups and downs, but I’d go with floatzel at the end of the day.

Either way you’re not using Basculegion for Swift Swim most the time. It’s running Adaptability as a wallbreaker, not a sweeper.

 

[LoseToRU?]

Here is a replay from the most recent OU room tour finals:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1874370641

Lando + Tran + Urshi + G-King + Zap
with Gambit for some extra flavor

All the worst aspects of gen 8
with Gambit there to somehow make it more obnoxious

Welcome to Home!
You now need:

A Band/SD Urshi switch in (Good Luck)

A Tran switch in

A good reason to attack with any contact move or good chance of being crippled by Static (personal favorite, love that for us, v competitive)

A Gambit switch in/answer that doesn't lose to Zapdos and doesn't lose to def Lando

Mons getting in basically for free via G-King Chilly Reception (notice how epic cool tera makes it a, surprise surprise, fairy type for extra fun)

For everyone who said they don't want to ban Tera cuz it will just be a repeat of gen 8, big LOL from me kings.
It's been a day and we already have teams like this, with no "broken mons" and thus will be the meta from here on out.
There is and most likely will be no discussion around Urshi, Tran, Zap, etc and for good reason cuz they aren't "broken."

I personally have zero optimism about post-Home from this game alone lmao

Tbf, I could be jumping the gun, but it's not looking good so far.

But that's just me. Some of my biggest gripes w gen 8 were static zap, cringe ass Urshi invalidating mons, tran answers, g-king FS + teleport, etc.
Once the dust settles, and Mage, Leki, w/e else is banned, we need to look into this shit, or just repeat the snooze fest balance cores ruining another gen. I'd start w Urshi personally, or Static, but again, that's just me.

 

[Tio Chico]

Random post after coming back after a few months and playing around on the ladder;
I know it's day 1 but enough of Magearna and Regieleki. Heatran Tera Fly is boring, Terastal remains boring and unhealthy.
Enamorus-I looks fun and Zamazenta at least for now is ok.
Don't sleep on Ditto, this goo is good.

 

[Ctann]

Disclosed Tera types at preview will solve almost everything except maybe magearna, urshifu and chien pao. Eleki might be still over the edge due to the 50/50 on matchup.

there could be other overlooked stuff that will be too much, but seriously.. it’s such a minor “nerf“ to current Tera and has a very noticeable impact

 

[artificialdeath]

Here is a replay from the most recent OU room tour finals:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1874370641

Lando + Tran + Urshi + G-King + Zap
with Gambit for some extra flavor

All the worst aspects of gen 8
with Gambit there to somehow make it more obnoxious

Welcome to Home!
You now need:

A Band/SD Urshi switch in (Good Luck)

A Tran switch in

A good reason to attack with any contact move or good chance of being crippled by Static (personal favorite, love that for us, v competitive)

A Gambit switch in/answer that doesn't lose to Zapdos and doesn't lose to def Lando

Mons getting in basically for free via G-King Chilly Reception (notice how epic cool tera makes it a, surprise surprise, fairy type for extra fun)

For everyone who said they don't want to ban Tera cuz it will just be a repeat of gen 8, big LOL from me kings.
It's been a day and we already have teams like this, with no "broken mons" and thus will be the meta from here on out.
There is and most likely will be no discussion around Urshi, Tran, Zap, etc and for good reason cuz they aren't "broken."

I personally have zero optimism about post-Home from this game alone lmao

Tbf, I could be jumping the gun, but it's not looking good so far.

But that's just me. Some of my biggest gripes w gen 8 were static zap, cringe ass Urshi invalidating mons, tran answers, g-king FS + teleport, etc.
Once the dust settles, and Mage, Leki, w/e else is banned, we need to look into this shit, or just repeat the snooze fest balance cores ruining another gen. I'd start w Urshi personally, or Static, but again, that's just me.

I really doubt that we are going to see a repeat of gen 8 tera or no tera lol. Depending on what returns and doesn't return with move tutors in DLC it's likely that a lot of the status/recovery that allowed those fat balance cores to exist are gone (not to mention the PP nerf). Don't forget how offensive this gen is compared to previous ones, people are focusing on the new toys brought with home but there's still all the obscenely powerful stuff that was in gen 9 at launch. In general it just feels bizarre to see Pao, Magearna, Luna, Regieleki, Sneasler, etc. running around and have that be your main takeaway

 

[Ctann]

disagree, tusk is still the best ground and is easier to put on a team than lando due to spin, and with hsamurott and kleavor in the meta spinning is extra valuable. Lando is still amazing, CB with terablast has so much value

I haven’t had time to actually play yet, just been watching games at the top of the ladder.

first impressions are that tusk is not getting room, it’s getting walked all over by the bigger threats lol.

best tusk performance I saw was an ice spinner popping a lando.

defensively I haven’t seen any tusk perform well, outside of using Tera to urgently check something before it walks over the rest of the team.

landorus is, as always, a reliable switch into stuff, and then pivot out if needed. Some things haven’t changed.

even tho this is first impressions, I’m pretty confident in lando > tusk in viability, not that it matters lol.

hazard removal is important of course, it’s just very difficult to actually pull it off.

of course, meta might change rapidly and tusk will remain top dog. I have no idea.. just talking first impressions

 

[MattC (Banned)]

I want to put this out there. Now, I know I especially freaked out over Ursaluna and HOME in general, but look at it this way:

A lot of mons lost incredibly important tools. Cringe and obvious as that is, it's true. Everything lost Knock Off, Toxic, Teleport and Defog - all incredibly important tools from past gens. Even the lesser spread Heal Bell is gone now. Once the meta settles down after a week or 2, it'll be like nothing ever happened. Give this metagame a chance. I will. As much as I dislike Heatran and Landorus, I'll still play OU in spite of the chaos. And even so, people will find answers to these strong pokemon

:D

 

[LoseToRU?]

I really doubt that we are going to see a repeat of gen 8 tera or no tera lol. Depending on what returns and doesn't return with move tutors in DLC it's likely that a lot of the status/recovery that allowed those fat balance cores to exist are gone (not to mention the PP nerf). Don't forget how offensive this gen is compared to previous ones, people are focusing on the new toys brought with home but there's still all the obscenely powerful stuff that was in gen 9 at launch. In general it just feels bizarre to see Pao, Magearna, Luna, Regieleki, Sneasler, etc. running around and have that be your main takeaway

I see what you're saying in your last sentence, but I'm often looking at the bigger picture.
There have been times where I called out something when few others noticed it and weeks/months later I end up being right.

Those mons will be banned soon, and I've actually had no trouble with them bar Leki.

It's the Tran + Zap + Urshi cores that are cheesing me the most.

I'm just putting it here to add to my track record of calling out shit mad early lol.

There is no way these mons don't end up being top tier and defining the meta.

In a way, its a sign of a healthy meta that BO is the top archetype, but it's insufferable this exact same core we danced around for 3 years is going to continue to reign.
Tera is just going to make this core even more insufferable.
We can come back to this post in a few months, and all have a good laugh either way.

I literally hope I'm incorrect, cuz that means we have a good meta, and all that does is prove I'm human.
If I am correct, we're in for another terrible meta.
Time will tell.

 

[artificialdeath]

I see what you're saying in your last sentence, but I'm often looking at the bigger picture.
There have been times where I called out something when few others noticed it and weeks/months later I end up being right.

Those mons will be banned soon, and I've actually had no trouble with them bar Leki.

It's the Tran + Zap + Urshi cores that are cheesing me the most.

I'm just putting it here to add to my track record of calling out shit mad early lol.

There is no way these mons don't end up being top tier and defining the meta.

In a way, its a sign of a healthy meta that BO is the top archetype, but it's insufferable this exact same core we danced around for 3 years is going to continue to reign.
Tera is just going to make this core even more insufferable.
We can come back to this post in a few months, and all have a good laugh either way.

I literally hope I'm incorrect, cuz that means we have a good meta, and all that does is prove I'm human.
If I am correct, we're in for another terrible meta.
Time will tell.

That last sentence was unwarranted on my part, as you did address this in your post. Even without them, there seems to be a lot of stuff that can at least put pressure on these cores. You're probably right that the core will remain prominent, but to me it seems like power creep (for lack of a better term) coupled with movepool changes will make it less omnipresent than in SS. As you said time will tell and I'm also willing to admit I could be wrong here. Who knows what DLC will bring or how long Tera will last either way

 

[Mega Breloom]

Here is a replay from the most recent OU room tour finals:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1874370641

Lando + Tran + Urshi + G-King + Zap
with Gambit for some extra flavor

All the worst aspects of gen 8
with Gambit there to somehow make it more obnoxious

Welcome to Home!
You now need:

A Band/SD Urshi switch in (Good Luck)

A Tran switch in

A good reason to attack with any contact move or good chance of being crippled by Static (personal favorite, love that for us, v competitive)

A Gambit switch in/answer that doesn't lose to Zapdos and doesn't lose to def Lando

Mons getting in basically for free via G-King Chilly Reception (notice how epic cool tera makes it a, surprise surprise, fairy type for extra fun)

For everyone who said they don't want to ban Tera cuz it will just be a repeat of gen 8, big LOL from me kings.
It's been a day and we already have teams like this, with no "broken mons" and thus will be the meta from here on out.
There is and most likely will be no discussion around Urshi, Tran, Zap, etc and for good reason cuz they aren't "broken."

I personally have zero optimism about post-Home from this game alone lmao

Tbf, I could be jumping the gun, but it's not looking good so far.

But that's just me. Some of my biggest gripes w gen 8 were static zap, cringe ass Urshi invalidating mons, tran answers, g-king FS + teleport, etc.
Once the dust settles, and Mage, Leki, w/e else is banned, we need to look into this shit, or just repeat the snooze fest balance cores ruining another gen. I'd start w Urshi personally, or Static, but again, that's just me.

Magearna and Pao lost too much health for no reason in random turns, they should have done way more.

 

[LoseToRU?]

Magearna and Pao lost too much health for reason in random turns, they should have done way more.

Yeah the other guy wasn't a great player, I didn't want to put that in my post.
My issue is when another player of the winner's skill level has a similar squad, and they spend 20mins taking turns CR into Tran/Zap/Lando.
And this is just day 1, we haven't touched Pex/Torn regen degen bullshit.

I'm just really early to a party that y'all don't want to be invited to lol
It's looking rough from my perspective.

 

[MattC (Banned)]

HOT TAKES FOR OU
Gonna throw out some takes hotter than my breath (maybe)
I mean, it's Magearna. Stored Power Draining Kiss be damned
strongest attacker on both sides we got. Really you just need to outspeed it and you're good
It miiight be a bit strong. Seeing a lot of TR teams makin use of it
Dire Claw + Poison Touch + U-turn isn't fun. Neither is its Unburden sets
If only it had Roar, then we'd have an actual SAFE Magearna answer. Mostly
It's still Landorus. Therian
I have high hopes for this mon. It having Regenerator and a pivot move as well as a more useful defensive typing than its Johto counterpart is huge
It's got some nice tools. Ceaseless Edge, Knock Off, Aqua Jet. Really just Crawdaunt but mixed attacker
As a ZU player, I know how this ends
That's just some of the HOME mons and what I expect from them. I don't have high hopes for the other unless some development happens. But hey - the OU council is just trying its best to give the people a positive experience

 

[Magcargo]

Played like 10 games with a really shitty team that's extremely weak to draco spam. Here are some thoughts.

• Eleki is really good, probably broken. Perfect Coverage with Boltbeam allow it to very reliably force progress and revenge kill everything. Since Grounds don't stop it as well anymore, its able to repeatedly deal massive chip damage with Volt Switch, letting it sweep more reliably later on in a match.
• Thundurus-T is pretty ok too. Its a bit fragile and slow, but perfect BoltBeam Coverage + Grass Knot can let open holes for Eleki to sweep. It also matches really nicely vs some of Eleki's checks like Iron Treads. It also doesn't do that bad vs Zamazenta if you don't get Crunch Defense drops like I do lol
• Lando-T a fairly reliable Pokemon still to blanket check various threats in the metagame. Less Toxic or Knock Off is a massive boon for it since it can keep its leftovers for longer. I've been running Protect in the last slot and its pretty great, lets our friend manuver around Specs Eleki a bit better
• Galarian Slowking is pretty ight. Doesn't match up particularly well vs many meta threats, but being a slow, fat pivot is useful to bring other teammates out
• Urshifu-RS and Kingambit are two of the greatest benchwarmers of all time.

Overall just some initial impressions, likely gonna change some opinions over time.

https://pokepast.es/17a21af136c3380d <- Here's the team, any feedback would be appreciated.

 

[Mega Breloom]

Yeah the other guy wasn't a great player, I didn't want to put that in my post.
My issue is when another player of the winner's skill level has a similar squad, and they spend 20mins taking turns CR into Tran/Zap/Lando.
And this is just day 1, we haven't touched Pex/Torn regen degen bullshit.

I'm just really early to a party that y'all don't want to be invited to lol
It's looking rough from my perspective.

The first days of a new meta stuff looks way worse, Ursa for example is great but not as strong as it seems, it is just new toy syndrome. I'm sure that people will be used to it in less than a week. As others have mentioned, it is very unlikely that gen 8 will repeat with the powercreep making it easier to break those cores.
Also, I think that Urishifu might be considered for a suspect at some point but it will take a while since other stuff kinda overshadows it.

 

[Moyashi]

Been playing on and off for a while today while working on other stuff, and as predicted the meta is crazy chaotic. There is a lot to unpack but I have a few observations regarding new stuff

• Regieleki is an extremely warping presence, to no one's surprise. Teams without a ground are free volt switch fodder and those with grounds have to walk a very delicate dance. I've seen lots of grounds panic tera just to avoid being dropped by Tera Blast Ice. Outside priority and select scarfers or booster energy mons, it feels next to impossible to handle offensively. This really shouldn't stay for long as its just miserable to play and build around.
• Magearna is as BS as it was last gen and for more or less the same reasons only now it has tera. I can't see this lasting long at all. Likewise, I don't find Pao any more reasonable to handle than it was last time it was legal. CB still destroys structures lacking specific pokemon. Outside Mag and ZamaC, you don't really have many options.
• I was thinking Sneasler was a borderline case leading up to HOME, but I've watched enough games of Dire Claw RNG nonsense to be convinced its just dumb. Poison touch sets with uturn are also really nice. Definitely should be watched.
• Volcanion is cool. Only scald steam eruption spammer left in the game and tera ground compliments water/fire/ground coverage beautifully while also ruining RotomW's day since Volc becomes immune to both its stabs. Oh and for some reason it has taunt now.
• Landorus-T, despite losing staple utility moves, is still goat. The lack of knock/toxic goes both ways, as Magcargo above pointed out, with it no longer fearing losing lefties so often or being put on a timer. Taunt is a great move pool addition too. And it still is a solid rocker while also blanket checking threats. Great Tusk in particular can never break it without ice spinner which severely cuts into its move slots.

On the subject of Great Tusk, from games I've seen and played, it feels quite a deal tougher to get room for it to spin because so many returning and new mons threaten it or punish Tusk in some way. Its obviously still great, and necessary for spin, but I feel the dex expansion has definitely hit it.

 

[Magcargo]

Probably should have mentioned it in my last post, but Future Sight Chilly Reception Slowking is an amazing Eleki teammate. So far on the lower ladder, most player I see are using Tusk as their main Ground-type. Slowking-G can setup a free pivot Future Sight for Regieleki so you can go ham w/ T-Bolt / Volt Switch.

I do think this DLC was just what Iron Treads needed to gain relevance again. Unlike Great Tusk, who matches up poorly vs Flyers, Iron Treads matches up decently well against them and its speed tier is pretty relevant to outspeed key targets like Lando-T, Thundurus-T, etc. The Eleki match-up in particular is a big point in its favor compared to Tusk.

 

[Avira]

But that's just me. Some of my biggest gripes w gen 8 were static zap, cringe ass Urshi invalidating mons, tran answers, g-king FS + teleport, etc.
Once the dust settles, and Mage, Leki, w/e else is banned, we need to look into this shit, or just repeat the snooze fest balance cores ruining another gen. I'd start w Urshi personally, or Static, but again, that's just me.

I think there's a decent chance that you'll get your wish with Urshifu-Rapid Strike getting suspect-tested this gen considering Tera could very well push it over the line to unhealthy/broken territory. Maybe it's going under the radar right now, but that's only because there are so many world beaters in the tier right now.

 

[Fancy1]

Enamorus @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Contrary
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe (evs change if you run super power)
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Healing Wish / Super Power
- Moonblast
- Earth Power
- Sludge Bomb / Mystical Fire

Morkal talked about this mon a bit earlier but godamn I think it needs to be restated, there is a shit ton of broken running around rn and a scarfer with like the perfect coverage goes crazy, this thing has been on like 3 teams I’ve built in the last hour.

Enamorus lures quite a lot of mons and can open holes for basically any offensive partner and just lures walls like Tran and av mage that don’t want to eat a tera ep

I think healing wish might be slightly better over super power just because it can “revive” offensive partners that have been chipped too much but the mixed potential to sweep late game is definitely there

anyways in conclusion fuck rocks use this mon it’s definitely not broken but it’s been putting in serious work for me today and I think it is very good rn
​

 

[YubelVT]

Peaked at 2012 elo today playing around 20 games using a ho team with screens, shift cm mag, ursaluna and sneasler. My thoughts atm on problematic mons.
Magearna - broken mon needs to go, give it a single free turn and you will probably lose to shift cm. Cheap mon, you can play like ass for 30 turns and still win.
Regieleki - hasn't been as completely overwhelming as I thought it would be but pretty sure it's broken.

Ursaluna - unwallable, gets a kill 90% of the time it comes in, eats hits for days - send it to ubers.

Chien Pao - not that bad atm with mag on every team, will be broken after the other brokens get removed.

Zamazenta - I thought it would be pretty mid, but iron defense sets are actually incredibly difficult to deal with especially with tera. Probably broken with tera, fine without.

Sneasler - really tricky to deal with unburden sets behind screens. Hits like a truck. I think it's not "clearly broken" but definitely could be.

I think at this point a lot of what is pushing stuff over the edge of is tera. I think after a few weeks of letting the meta settle and banning the broken mons, we need another tera suspect.

ursaluna is slow and can't really do much in the face of reasonably strong grass knots without burning tera

 

[taziathegreat]

I just don’t see the regi hype in practice honestly. Both in using it and playing against it just feels like a scarf pult or booster valiant or moon. Extremely Suppressing offensive mon in that other fast but frail threats in check, but it’s lack the office of power to be a true breaker or sweeper

 

[Return to Zero]

This is the first generation where I've seen Lando-T basically kinda just... exist. It feels overshadowed by Great Tusk, and more often than not I just capitalize on Intimidate rather than be affected by it. Great glue but, I'm not feeling Lando-T as much right now.​

Wild to think we're living in an era of Lesser Tusk. I didn't realize how much Knock Off and Defog were jacking up this thing's viability. I doubt it's ever going to fall off, but I feel like access to Intimidate is the only big reason you'd use this over Tusk. I honestly have gotten more use out of Overqwil so far than Lando.

By the way, try Overqwil some time. Great for pivoting and picking up some cool resistance combinations. It even doesn't get 2HKOd by Chien-Pao with max Def investment.

Further by the way, please send the weasel back to Ubers.

 

[MattC (Banned)]

Probably should have mentioned it in my last post, but Future Sight Chilly Reception Slowking is an amazing Eleki teammate. So far on the lower ladder, most player I see are using Tusk as their main Ground-type. Slowking-G can setup a free pivot Future Sight for Regieleki so you can go ham w/ T-Bolt / Volt Switch.

I do think this DLC was just what Iron Treads needed to gain relevance again. Unlike Great Tusk, who matches up poorly vs Flyers, Iron Treads matches up decently well against them and its speed tier is pretty relevant to outspeed key targets like Lando-T, Thundurus-T, etc. The Eleki match-up in particular is a big point in its favor compared to Tusk.

Iron Treads is actually eating this HOME meta. It's one of... actually, the only really relevant Ground type not weak to Ice - meaning it won't crumple in the face of Regieleki. Sure its not faster than it, but it doesn't fold to it either. This also makes it Eleki a good partner for it as it beats the other Ground types trying to stand in its way such as Great Tusk and Garchomp. It remains a lesser version of Great Tusk, but it definetly has its place - as it has all the tools Great Tusk has minus bulk and power in favor of speed and Volt Switch.

Bouns points for being solid into Shift Gear CM Stored Power Magearna with both STAB hitting for super effective damage