Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v2 [Update on Post #5186]

[AM]

Enjoyment - 7: Tier is fun as a casual, need to put that here as I know it's always going to be a different perspective depending on if you're playing with friends, messing around on ladder like I do vs tryhard tournament games. It would be higher without some of the oppressive interactions you have to deal with in the builder or kind of accept losses against.

Comp/Balanced - 3: Tier is fun and is most definitely playable in the long run despite people crying about it but not balanced what so ever.

Pao - 4: Between 4/5 to me. This mon has no checks/counters on paper but we're way past the point where everything needs defensive checks which is why I abstained putting a 5.

Z-Hero - 3: (I would've abstained here I havent used it much and I see more crowned)

Z-Crowned - 5: Think this mon is too oppressive in gameplay even if I feel Pao should be the one going first originally despite a lower ranking. Lot of the checks people describe are super fake and or 2hkoD by ID/Press anyways. Worst case scenario you pop a tera to surprise or break through it.

Sneasler - 4: I gave this mon a 4 not a 5 because despite me still thinking it's not as crazy as people describe it, the mon's a bit of a fish in a not so good way. Lot of useful traits the tier could use (Tspikes absorber as one example) overshadowed by its oppressive ones similar to Mag imo.

Ursh-R - 4: I put 4 because this mon will be broken when the metagame slows down from the banning or tiering actions of the above.

Big Bear - 4: Mons broken despite naysayers but sort of doubt any tiering would happen until someone reputable smashes or gets smashed in a tour game or two from it.

Light Clay - 1: Symptom of broken mons. Most stuff winning before the 5 turn screens are up anyways which is why it doesn't make sense even if it's in good faith. You would tackle blatantly broken mons/mechanics first and then realistically the Screen moves. I dont like the precedent last gen lower tiers sort of made with the banning of this item to save borderline broken mons in their own tiers. I feel it would be very weird for OU to adopt this when it's sort of dancing around everything above and perhaps other things long term. I'll admit some mons are stupid behind screens (Armourage is a sleeper pick for example).

Anything else like Council look into: I went ahead and put to keep eye on Heatran for the same reasons as Urshifu. Basically when the meta eventually slows down and goes back to fat sweaty I dont bathe Ting-Lu Rest balances,Corvknight/Zapdos volt turn cores, pre-homish repetitive bulky offenses, this mon will be very annoying. Magma + Tera makes trapping and eliminating even easier than it was in SS and unless Tera leaves the tier (I don't care either way which is why I dont speak on it too much) this mon is going to be stupid to cover.

Tl;dr: Good format, needs improvements, stop being entitled cry babies though.

 

[YubelVT]

While y’all are in timeout, respond to the tiering survey: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/sv-ou-tiering-surveys.3711911/#post-9649755

And you can post your thoughts (civilly) later when this is open if you’d like!

Pao: 5 it's ridiculous
Both Zamazentas: 4 they can be dealt with but they also do have stats way above the average
Sneasler: 5 It's a better Hawlucha and Hawlucha was already ridiculous to deal with sometimes
Urshifu Rapid Strike: 3 I just haven't seen enough of it but I can see how it's potentially broken
Ursaluna: 1 This isn't banworthy in the least it's exploitable and, while strong, is also extremely slow. Trick Room teams are GARBAGE without mag
Light Clay: 1 Screens without Mag is just cheese. I hate Grimmsnarl cheese as much as the next person but it's not an issue at this point

 

[Crimson Chris]

• Ceaseless Edge and Spikes are too strong I feel. Very few hazard removers barring Tusks (which can be played around and also doesn't like Spikes chip) forces teams to run multiple HDB Pokemon. Also makes Pokemon like Chien-Pao more difficult to answer. I am not sure what the solution to this problem is, but it is something I noticed when playing

Yeah, I think the issue is that this combo requires H-Samurott as it's the only mon with Ceaseless Edge at this point in time. And despite H-Samurott being a solid OU mon, I would say that it having a few quite notable weaknesses as a mon would lead to this not having much done to this combo.

 

[MrE]

While y’all are in timeout, respond to the tiering survey: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/sv-ou-tiering-surveys.3711911/#post-9649755

And you can post your thoughts (civilly) later when this is open if you’d like!

I voted;

(IIRC) 8/10 on fun, it's mons, even when there's really stupid stuff around it's usually fun anyway.

7/10 on competitive, we're only 3 QBs away from almost being back to where we were pre home in terms of balanced meta and no obviously broken stuff running around.

chien-pao 5/5 This thing is stupid, there's basically nothing that can switch into this, just like last time it was in the tier

Zama-C 5/5 it's just way too overtuned, no mon as bulky as this thing is should also have the speed it has and attack it has in OU. It comes in get's the +1 and will either ID or Sub up whilst you switch and by that point it becomes very difficult to remove and will proceed to sweep you.

Zama-H 5/5 it's not as good as Zama-C due to no steel type and less bulk, but the bulk it does has is still more than enough in OU to be really hard to deal with whilst having its item slot free gives it more set variety making it harder to dance against. Like Zama-C it finds getting a free turn way too easy and giving a free turn to either of these is often game over. Once Chien-Pao and Zama-C goes this thing will be a lot scarier as we'll have fewer things to check it and the speed tier it has is really outrageous.

Ursaluna 3/5 It's terrifying in trick room but even there it can be danced around. Outside of it it's really underwhelming however and inferior to Gambit imo. The burn chip really hinders its longevity and makes it feel like it has much worse bulk than Gambit coupled with it's inferior typing so you're often only really taking one mon down with you and no priority means there's no really reverse sweep capability that Gambit has. Also speaking about Gambit I don't really see the appeal of defiant for intimidate mons vs SO as defiant is more match up fish and Gambit almost always runs SD so whilst it does require some prediction and higher R/R SD'ing on the intimidate switch whilst also having a bit of SO boost is really devastating. Gambit also really likes everybody's new fav slow pivot in Glowking.

Sneasler 3/5 Dire claw when it pops off is a really bullshit move and makes it hard to dance around but it often doesn't want to use the move preferring CC or U-Turn. Water Garg devours this guy. I do really like the way that poison touch sets can ruin fat and stall through the hax though

Urshifu RS 4/5 This thing is low key busted imo, fantastic typing, swords dance, trailblaze, priority, crazy strong signature move, fighting stab, good coverage, good physical bulk and most important few quality water resists. Very few mons want to take tera water surging strikes, let alone a hit from +2. Hopefully this is suspect tested after Pao and the Zama's are banned.

Light clay 1/5 Screens HO is nonsense atm but that's more a consequence of all the broken shit running around, at the start of the gen screens ho was similarly nonsense with Grim being solidly OU, but as the broken stuff got banned screens ho fell out of favour and that shit mon fell down to RU and screens in OU became much rarer too see, I predict the same to happen again.

 

[LoseToRU?]

Yo can we have the next Survey in a time where it's not the worst possible time to have one?

Last Survey was coming off the heels of the Worm HO meta, so when this gen got the lowest scores for fun and balance of all time, ppl blamed Worm even though it's obviously Tera. Whether they are conscious of that or not idc, but the results clearly show gen 9 is not what it could be.

Worm HO clogged up high ladder for literally like 10 days before the survey came out, and ppl are blaming those historically low scores on that is p funny. Not saying it didn't help the scores, just saying that was not the main culprit- whatsoever, and I'm tired of that bullshit talking point.

When we get another incredibly lackluster survey result, ppl are gonna blame Mage and all the other banned shit.

Either do the survey in a time that isn't terrible and broken shit skews the results, or simply have one that says, "How do you feel about Tera."

So much has changed since that first Tera suspect, and to leave that question off any survey since then seems really weird.

I don't want to attribute malice where it could be incompetence, but why are we not gathering player data on Tera for almost half a year now?

Seems weird af to me that no data is being collected, and every time we have a survey, it's always around the time something else could be blamed for the incredibly low scores for fun and balance.

We got Pao, and Zama next, which both would prolly be broken w/o Tera.

But after that, it's time to give Tera another suspect, or a survey, or take one actual baby step to address the: "Tera is not fun", "Tera is annoying" "Tera fucking sucks" posts you see in OU chat every 10mins.
It's time to address why this meta is getting 5's out of 10 for fun and balance.

 

[WildWave]

https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1ZDQpBSTSEuzzmqqK0rPn9uyJqtHPLYn0xusfdxxSWX0/edit
The form disappeared, maybe it’s just a bug on my side but here it is (not official form on Espathra)

Here you go

 

[SnackWasTaken]

Yo can we have the next Survey in a time where it's not the worst possible time to have one?

Last Survey was coming off the heels of the Worm HO meta, so when this gen got the lowest scores for fun and balance of all time, ppl blamed Worm even though it's obviously Tera. Whether they are conscious of that or not idc, but the results clearly show gen 9 is not what it could be.

Worm HO clogged up high ladder for literally like 10 days before the survey came out, and ppl are blaming those historically low scores on that is p funny. Not saying it didn't help the scores, just saying that was not the main culprit- whatsoever, and I'm tired of that bullshit talking point.

When we get another incredibly lackluster survey result, ppl are gonna blame Mage and all the other banned shit.

Either do the survey in a time that isn't terrible and broken shit skews the results, or simply have one that says, "How do you feel about Tera."

So much has changed since that first Tera suspect, and to leave that question off any survey since then seems really weird.

I don't want to attribute malice where it could be incompetence, but why are we not gathering player data on Tera for almost half a year now?

Seems weird af to me that no data is being collected, and every time we have a survey, it's always around the time something else could be blamed for the incredibly low scores for fun and balance.

We got Pao, and Zama next, which both would prolly be broken w/o Tera.

But after that, it's time to give Tera another suspect, or a survey, or take one actual baby step to address the: "Tera is not fun", "Tera is annoying" "Tera fucking sucks" posts you see in OU chat every 10mins.
It's time to address why this meta is getting 5's out of 10 for fun and balance.

THANK YOU. Tera has pushed too many mons over the edge (Annihilape, Kingambit, Regieleki, my emu pal Espathra to name a few). The best thing we can do is not to keep it the way it is, not to remove it outright, but to find the perfect balancing mechanic.

 

[YubelVT]

THANK YOU. Tera has pushed too many mons over the edge (Annihilape, Kingambit, Regieleki, my emu pal Espathra to name a few). The best thing we can do is not to keep it the way it is, not to remove it outright, but to find the perfect balancing mechanic.

open tera sheets is the only solution if you aren't going to ban tera

 

[awyp]

I agree I think Tera needs to be asked about in the next survey I know it’s a matter of time after World Cup is over. So changing the meta this drastically would be bad but it’s something I think should be considered when there’s not so much going around.

 

[Crimson Chris]

I would honestly just say to do a tera preview first. If Tera is still seen as problematic afterwards, then go from there.

 

[Ast0rga]

Could something like this be a realistic option?

 

[awyp]

Elaborate pls

gladly, in terms of brokenness it has a lot of physical bulk and physical attack and in combo with Guts it becomes a viable walk breaker + the ability to Tera. It reminds me of Melmetal but not as good to be honest outside the Guts power. I think a Trailblaze variant could be viable since it has no priority moves it relies on Trick Room / Trailblaze / An opposing stall team for it to shine, if you take all those away you deal with a mon that’s very difficult to get going. I think it can be in OU, it’s power is stupendous but you can play around it for sure. I think it deserves to be suspected but it has obvious flaws to it.

 

[sg pokemon]

So tonight, now that the thread has finally been unlocked, I've decided to share a bit of my experience from trying out this new meta for a few days now. WARNING: this post ended up way longer than expected.

General meta thoughts/experience

To start, I've pretty much only laddered with an alternate account starting from the bottom, to test out the new stuff and see what sticks best. Eventually however, I found the most success using webs of all things, managing to climb all the way up to mid 1600s range- where I'm currently shakily residing on. While laddering, I did initially try out a variety of other styles, from trick room to rain, but in the end I felt most comfortable with webs, especially with 2 newcomings mons I'd been willing to use for a while now- h-samurott and enamorus-i. I'll talk more about them -and other things- a bit later on, but first, I finally took a bit of time to reflect...why did I find the most success with a style such as webs, even in the current meta?

After thinking it through for a bit, I finally managed to clear my head and realize just why. Simply put, speed creep has become more demanding than ever before. This was, to an extent, already notable even before the home meta was out- walking wake, roaring moon, iron valiant, meowscarada, pult, and many others (including flutter mane/iron bundle before their bans) had already set a newfound standard for speed tiers in ou, in a seemingly unprecedented manner- suddely, even 110 speed isn't quite cutting it anymore for a lot of mons, much less the 100 base speed tier that was once considered a golden standard. All of these very fast threats -especially boosted energy paradoxes- had to be respected in both the builder and in the battle itself -lest they steal the game at the drop of a hat. However....now that the home meta is upon us, the standards for speed have yet again crept up further, somehow: (unburden) sneasler, chien pao and both zamazentas have already kicked out most of the aforementioned pre home threats, and have cemented themselves at the top of everyone's threat lists- with even greater speed stats towering above almost everything else....except for pult, which has managed to remain viable precisely because it still barely covers even above these newfound crazy speed tiers; yet, the mon now squeals in fear at chien pao's priority dropping it down instantly, on top of more mons to make it feel miserable, like sucker punch h-samurott, enamorus, and the now-banned magearna. Still, pult has adapted by simply delegating itself as a screens lead instead now- a role whose speed tier allows to still fulfill, showing just how important its speed remains to this day, basically unmatched by anything but weather sweepers and h-electrode. Shout-out to whoever's still trying to make the mon work even now, hopefully someone can come up with something- even if it is just a more reliable/effective way to utilise its sub-seed set; seriously how does this mon force any switches in ou LOL. And this speed issue is reflected no better than in the very first ban of this new meta; regieleki and its completely unreal base speed of 200, which when combined with newfound access to perfect coverage, made the mon completely unnerving to play against, holding a world record in getting quickbanned both as an announcement and also from the ladder itself.

Now, why is this whole point about speed so important? Well, as already mentioned before, so many threats can simply end the game instantly if they find a good enough opening- which their speed tier, offensive toolkit, and tera enables more easily than ever. It is because of this issue that many offensive teams these days seek to simply estabilish their own speed preference to simply avoid dealing with such speed issues; be it trick room, webs, weather, scarfers, or multiple forms of priority. Alternatively, screens provide a buffer against the opposition's powerful attacks, to hopefully set up as much as possible to finish the game outright. Basically, the presence of such fast, oppressively offensive threats can make offensive teams (not just ho) feel rather constrained in their options- and yes, I'm aware that the rise of such playstyles that many people may call "cheese" have gathered recent interest due to particular mons- ursaluna for trick room, basculegions for rain, possibly h-lilligant for sun, and for me using webs, it was h-samurott and enamorus-i (s/o to the few other people using webs on the ladder to try and make hoopa-u work also). Speaking of, now that I've touched upon these mons again, might as well expand a bit more upon them, as promised above.

Samurott

Samurott-Hisui (F) @ Life Orb
Ability: Sharpness
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Ceaseless Edge
- Razor Shell
- Sacred Sword
- Sucker Punch

This mon right here is what had made me most excited for the arrival of the home meta. I knew from the start it'd have great promise due to its multiple good traits, and I'm glad that it hasn't disappointed at all, and that many others are recognising its greatness too. However, one common misconception about the mon is that it's WAY more than just a ceaseless edge bot. This mon really just has the perfect kit to make the mon work as a whole, and it's just such an explosive force in general. I won't delve into ceaseless edge too much, everyone already knows what it does and why it's the perfect icing on an already very well-baked cake. I will note however, that its accuracy might just be the worst part about the mon- not only do you not get to inflict any damage, you don't even lay any spikes down! Same goes for razor shell too, but I still prefer it due to aqua cutter, not only because of its greater raw power, but because the defense drop can really put a lot of pressure on any switchin that's not mirror armor corv/covert cloak mons, letting you muscle through things that might otherwise tank your attacks. Sacred sword could realistically be many other things- however, I chose it to immediately eliminate other h-samurott, kingambit, the much lesser seen meowscarada/roaring moon, and to deal up to half of zama-c's hp in one fell swoop. Lastly, sucker punch is strong priority which lets the mon go out with a bang, as well as attempt to prevent opposing sweeps should things get out of hand. With life orb and tera dark, it was also an excellent regieleki lure while it was still arond- wiping it out instantly, always worth saving the tera for. However, with its ban, it may be possible to explore other teras on the mon now- water to boost razor shell, or simply ghost/fairy/poison for defensive purposes- all of which serve to shed its nasty fighting weakness, in a meta plagued by so many of them around every corner- more of this in a bit). While lures like hydro pump, grass knot, taunt or even swords dance were possible considerations that the mon could feasibly run, I chose to stick with this set all the way through, after watching it in action for a bit on low ladder; its power is immense, and with webs up, it can fully flex it to serve as a strong early-mid game breaker- stacking additional hazards to punish grounded mons along the way. I've also been pairing it with the defensive gholdengo set ctann shared a few pages ago- the main difference being that I use hex>shadow ball to 2hko a paralyzed corv, and shuca>balloon, to keep my tusk lure intact as long as possible. It's also quite solid at staving off basically all of the new fighting type mons that are roaming around the tier, and preserve all the hazard stack. Back to samurott though, the aforementioned early-midgame presence is why I prefer life orb on it, to maximize its damage output against slowed opponents, while still laying down spikes against tougher cookies like dondozo/water tauros; it outright ohkos sneasler/skeledirge with razor shell, for an example of its damage output. And if need be, I could also heal it back up with healing wish enamorus, which already makes for a fantastic partner as is (this is in theory, ofc; in practice, idk why but I just suck at using healing wish properly somehow; and in any case, I've been using cm enamorus as a cleaner/wincon on the team). Speaking of which...

Enamorus

Enamorus @ Heavy-Duty Boots/Expert Belt
Ability: Cute Charm
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Moonblast
- Earth Power
- Mystical Fire
- Calm Mind/Taunt/Healing Wish

Another mon that vaguely picked my interest, especially for being a fast specially offensive fairy with coverage moves most such fairies would kill for; I've seen many people both consider the mon banworthy, and others consider it not even ou material. Me, personally? I consider it just ok; its speed tier is solid, but not the best -good reason to use webs with it!- and while its damage output is solid, its strongest stab is 95 bp -its signature move is 100 bp, but the accuracy....- off of 135 spa with no directly boosting ability. Regardless, said stab moonblast is flawlessly complemented by earth power and mystical fire as the ideal coverage moves alongside fairy stab- move types that the often-compared valiant would kill for without tera. The chosen tera type here is firmly ground type, to boost earth power to a level of 2hkoing skeledirge/almost 2hkoing clodsire/sometimes ohkoing kingambit (though many people are catching up to this fact, so be careful of when/if you tera ground with it!). In the last slot, calm mind requires you to not run contrary to give you the only non-item way of boosting your damage output on the special side. This also has the hilarious side effect of punishing any contact move mons with a male gender- infatuation has never been relevant in ou up until this point, however this mon alone may force this change upon the meta to not run the risk of giving it free turns if you get unlucky enough (for the curious, cute charm is static but for attract instead, which is basically a paralysis sidegrade as long as you stay in). If you don't run calm mind, as long as you're not running superpower, you can just opt for either ability- contrary's best use would be to counter random moonblasts/mirror armor corv. I've been using cm on it to really reinforce the mon's cleaning power- with webs up, its main issue in speed is migitated, letting it fully flex its power upon the rest of the tier- and you better believe it's gonna hurt. Other possible set alternatives could include sub/taunt>mystical fire if you're not worried about corv somehow (you should tbh, it's still as ubiquitous as ever), letting you own bulky owns even more effectively. Other tera types include fire/steel, mostly to flip your ice weakness and trump over chien pao/dire claw (tera ground won't prevent its balanced sleep effect after all...), but I strongly suggest sticking with ground for the aforementioned reasons (just watch out if you need the mon to check/rkill urshifu-rapid, you don't wanna risk getting picked off by jet even faster). Ebelt is also slashed as an option for greater immediate damage output, further supported by how many things your 3 attacks already hit super effectively. The rocks weakness can oftentimes be hard to ignore, though.... And lastly, I'm not really a fan of purely physical sets on the mon; like yeah contrary superpower seems appealing and all, but it's running off the mon's lower attack stat which personally seems like a waste (the mon gets focus blast if you want fighting coverage btw), especially since your best stab is then play rough, which bounces off of tusk, dauntless shield mons and can even miss, while making you vulnerable to burns. Not to mentioned you need tera blast for physical ground coverage, which can be restricting (not necessarily always, though; this mon is often my tera mon of choice in my team as is, due to the aforementioned benefits). That said, superpower as a rogue coverage move on the set I showed above is probably fine to smack random blisseys; though it may need a few boosts to truly persevere.

A bit more about my team

I'm also sharing a few replays of the team as a whole in action to generate further interest on the playstyle/team itself; it also apparently helps with views, according to ctann, so...yeah, enjoy, I suppose.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1877026766

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1877038978-aod272vf7pux3scppek1ivab7t0404mpw

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1877042977-wfukhqcnoutwf9brdmy985se4axrgmfpw

So yeah, I've been having a blast with this team so far, even while struggling to find a proper 6th mon for it- been rotating through a bunch of different options, and now that magearna's been banned I may keep trying out more new things- possibly thundy t>volcanion now that I no longer need it to slow down cm magearna? Who knows, really. Still, it feels good to slow down so many fast things in this meta- both zamas, non balloon sneasler, and non boots pao feel so much more manageable when they no longer have the speed advantage. This is particularly nice because, as mentioned way earlier in my post, this meta is more littered with fighting types than ever before- both zamas, sneasler, urshifu-r, g-zapdos, h-lilligant and even tusk/valiant to a lesser extent (and h-decid could possibly surprise people, ig?) still remain viable, excellent, and omnipresent throughout the meta- which is also why I believe hoopa-u struggles so much in it; all of the above mons can outrun it, prey upon its miserable defense, and wipe it out instantly (I've not really considered using the mon much myself unfortunately, not only do I consider it way too risky in general, it's also currently overshadowed/checked/faces competition by h-samurott/pao in terms of dark type breakers, with it offering strong special attacks as its main standout shout-out to the one tera fighting focus blast hoopa u which reverse swept me in the end, really got me off guard and landed 2 focus misses in a row for the win.

Survey votes

In any case, though, this post has been long enough, so I might as well post my own survey ratings, since everyone else is seemingly doing so already:
Pao: 5- this mon steals games at the drop of a hat it's not even funny. Like, I'm using it in my own webs team to beat flying mons/other webs immune threats, and it's disgusting how much damage it does without even a boosting item (I'm using boots). Also hysterical fact of the moment, did you know sword of ruin doesn't work against itself? What this means is that your tera dark pao can potentially live an opposing itemless pao's sacred sword from full hp- which is just utterly disturbing ngl. (it seems that the calculator doesn't have access to this, but it does work properly on showdown- regardless: 252 Atk Tera Dark Chien-Pao Sacred Sword vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tera Dark Chien-Pao: 224-264 (74.4 - 87.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO).
Zama (both): 4- realistically speaking, crowned should've gotten a 5; but whatever, too late now. Yeah honestly it's disturbing how many super effective hits crowned can devour with little issue, even off of strong attackers- +1 252 SpA Tera Ground Enamorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 338-402 (87.1 - 103.6%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO. This is of course not mentioning its absurd speed tier- a serious problem with recent gens' power creep, from what one can conclude at this point. Zama-hero is potentially not as bad -it's much less bulky and with a worse defensive typing- but with the discovery of the sub set, which works better on it and also survives uninvested gholdy's hex, it's definitely really oppressive, too; especially with the highest non pult speed tier in the tier, above even pao itself.
Sneasler, ursaluna, urshifu-r: 3- Not quite as pressing of issues as the aforementioned mons, but still shouldn't be ignored- sneasler's sleep inducing brokenness has been beaten to death on this thread for far too long as is so I won't even dare bother bringing it up again- but most steels in the tier do actually live a cc from it, and bulky poisons like pex can still be a blight for it. Urshifu...is honestly one of the worst mons for my webs team to face and it's actually just irritating to find a good surging strikes switchin ;-; in all honesty though, swords dance and punching glove definitely elevated the mon's status from last gen to a point where it should be watched- it might very well join its brother in ubers one day. Ursaluna is honestly really terrifying to give free turns to- you gotta dance around the immunities of its stabs quite often, which always feels like walking on eggshells- but thankfully the mon has a decent amount of exploitable weaknesses, especially with so many fighting types in the tier, and also various water types too....until it pops a tera to claim another unexpected kill xd. That said, its complete lack of priority moves really holds the mon juuust back enough from not being emergency banned- even feint would be massive for the mon. For now though, it is what it is.
Light clay: 2-This was honestly pretty sudden, and I agree that the most problematic mons should be dealt with first, when/if applicable. Still, if a tier as high as sv uu had to ban it last gen, it could be worth keeping an eye on. For now.
Meta enjoyment: 8- Tbh this was also kinda hasty/could've been lower, but I'm honestly glad the meta's even finally upon us after such a long, agonizing wait; and it's honestly not super terrible all things considered- aside from my issues with it highlighted above, I like seeing new faces on it after so long, even if it means the various dark types previously ruling supreme over the tier have now mostly fallen off to the wayside.
Meta balance: 6-...Ok yeah this should've also definitely been lower, but honestly? With all of these new additions to bolster various meta playstyles, I do believe that with just a little bit of additional polish, this meta could definitely remain fresh/interesting to explore, at least until the first dlc arrives and throws everything into the gutter again xd. Also, I would like to take this moment to show appreciation towards the ou council; they've really been doing an amazing job during all these months to try and have a semblance of a stable tier, and having to carry through with their decisions in spite of the inevitable outcries across various platforms is something one would have to be in their place to truly have to endure. Especially finch/ausma with their constant transparency with the general playerbase here, really helping to bridge the gap between the people frequenting this site/PS. And even the person who voted abstain on everything finally stepping up, it was heart wrenching to read! It really cannot be stated how much there is on their plate these days, with the world having their eyes on them as they decide the future of ou newcomers now and in the various days/weeks to come.

....And with that, I wonder if this post has matched twice the length of my diploma thesis yet. Meh, it's too late in the night to bother thinking about it now.


Tl; dr: I'm really glad that the new home meta is finally upon us, and I've been enjoying particularly using webs on it (starring h-samurott/enamorus-i, both fantastic mons in this meta). While it's still very much a mess even these days, -due to speed creep issues, and an overabudance of fast fighting types- with just a bit of polish, I'm sure things will turn out much better for it.

That is all for now I swear- if you actually managed to read even a portion of this, much less make it to the end, thank you so much for your time! Have a good day/night and happy laddering! Here's to hopefully a better meta in the upcoming days!

 

[Crimson Chris]

I think a lot of these apparent "new toy syndrome" mons are prolly just gonna be solid mons to use in OU. Not broken or anything. Just solid enough to have a presence.

Anyway, which would you say is better for H-Samurott; Razor Shell for Power and Def drop or Aqua Cutter for Accuracy and Crit chance?

 

[Lobby Eeveee]

Oh god I fucking hate

So what’s different from dire claw and other RNG?
It has 3 effects.

To help you understand it, let’s imagine there is a new Paldean Clefable who is a flying type but has the same stats, abilities and move pools. Due to magic guard, it can switch into scald and lava plume repeatedly. Now lets say it switches in to dire claw. If it gets paralysed or poisoned, then sneasler gets fucked. If it gets sleeped, on the other hand, than it gets fucked.

The 3 effects can cripple nearly the whole Pokédex if it rolls the correct one.

So let’s assume you thought ”I’m so smart” and switch in Gholdengo to sneasler. Sneasler sword dances. Then, on the next turn, surprise! Sneasler terrastralized into a ground type! Sneasler used Tera Blast! Hahaha fuck you.

 

[Finchinator]

I gave a 5/5. This thing is broken and needs to go to Ubers, in my opinion. Magearna at least loosely checked the most potent sets, which relied on STABs, but now we are in a very dire position. If Chien-Pao survives this week, there has been an epidemic failure.

& Both got a 5 from me, but I was closer to 4 than I was for Chien-Pao at least. Hero in particular was close to a 4, but I still want to do away with it enough to just keep it a 5 for now. Body Press being added to their movepools remains problematic. Unfortunately, they are beatable enough to skew some opinions, but look at the pool of counterplay and you realize how much they warp teambuilding. One of the main symptoms of the barrage of HO and dual screens teams is that these Pokemon would force very specific, oftentimes passive approaches on balance or bulky-offense to combat. And those approaches do exist, but they are so few and far between that we have to get rid of both for the sake of finding a balance metagame.

I think I gave a 4 (not positive), but I was between a 4 and a 5. It is stupid with Dire Claw how it can dictate games and how random things can get. It is not as potent as any of the Pokemon above it or even some of the Pokemon below it, but it is still very good and Dire Claw is still very stupid that either a 4 or a 5 is sufficient. This thing cannot exist in a serious SV OU, in my opinion.

is between a 3 and a 4 for me, but I went with a 3. It is probably broken, but it needs more breathing room that it simply does not get with three more common fighters in this post alone. I think it is an awesome Pokemon that adds a lot now, too, but I worry it will become broken once the dust settles. Not necessarily voting ban on it immediately, but perhaps one day in the future.

got a 2 from me. It is worse without Magearna and while pivoting from TR to dual screens HO with some speed investment helps, people are running teams well-equipped for it to basically trade a ton and rarely claim 3+ kills like it used to a lot. I find the metagame is adapting well, but after bans, it could get even better, so not going to go all the way down to 1 as it is still insanely strong.

Light Clay got a 1 from me. I would be more willing to look at it down the line, but really if Light Clay teams seem broken at this point, then it is a sign of a larger problem with stacked brokens in the tier or a fundamental issue like Terastallization, in my opinion. Not saying it is either or both and I think in the long haul it is great to keep an open mind, but it is clearly not as pressing to me as these Pokemon.

 

[BolTingBlazie]

I gave a 5/5. This thing is broken and needs to go to Ubers, in my opinion. Magearna at least loosely checked the most potent sets, which relied on STABs, but now we are in a very dire position. If Chien-Pao survives this week, there has been an epidemic failure.

& Both got a 5 from me, but I was closer to 4 than I was for Chien-Pao at least. Hero in particular was close to a 4, but I still want to do away with it enough to just keep it a 5 for now. Body Press being added to their movepools remains problematic. Unfortunately, they are beatable enough to skew some opinions, but look at the pool of counterplay and you realize how much they warp teambuilding. One of the main symptoms of the barrage of HO and dual screens teams is that these Pokemon would force very specific, oftentimes passive approaches on balance or bulky-offense to combat. And those approaches do exist, but they are so few and far between that we have to get rid of both for the sake of finding a balance metagame.

I think I gave a 4 (not positive), but I was between a 4 and a 5. It is stupid with Dire Claw how it can dictate games and how random things can get. It is not as potent as any of the Pokemon above it or even some of the Pokemon below it, but it is still very good and Dire Claw is still very stupid that either a 4 or a 5 is sufficient. This thing cannot exist in a serious SV OU, in my opinion.

is between a 3 and a 4 for me, but I went with a 3. It is probably broken, but it needs more breathing room that it simply does not get with three more common fighters in this post alone. I think it is an awesome Pokemon that adds a lot now, too, but I worry it will become broken once the dust settles. Not necessarily voting ban on it immediately, but perhaps one day in the future.

got a 2 from me. It is worse without Magearna and while pivoting from TR to dual screens HO with some speed investment helps, people are running teams well-equipped for it to basically trade a ton and rarely claim 3+ kills like it used to a lot. I find the metagame is adapting well, but after bans, it could get even better, so not going to go all the way down to 1 as it is still insanely strong.

Light Clay got a 1 from me. I would be more willing to look at it down the line, but really if Light Clay teams seem broken at this point, then it is a sign of a larger problem with stacked brokens in the tier or a fundamental issue like Terastallization, in my opinion. Not saying it is either or both and I think in the long haul it is great to keep an open mind, but it is clearly not as pressing to me as these Pokemon.

Personally I believe hero has a little more counterplay so I believe I gave it a 3/4 rather than a 5, as at least it has a decent number of answers compared to crowned despite being dummy fast, and you can at least mess up the sub set with toxic spike leads, and keep it away with futureport spam from glowking, crowned you cannot do any of that to

 

[Finchinator]

Personally I believe hero has a little more counterplay so I believe I gave it a 3/4 rather than a 5, as at least it has a decent number of answers compared to crowned despite being dummy fast

Crowned is better right now, but both should go, in my opinion.

 

[YubelVT]

I think Zapdos will be OU Adjacent at worst, similar to Gen 5. It lost Defog, which is a major hit, but it still has its excellent defensive typing and movepool.

 

[cala_aa]

got a 4 from me. I really think that a should be considered more heavily for the benefit of the entire tier and its playerbase. It promotes an unhealthy, uninteresting, and non-interactive playstyle that benefits from a lack of good defoggers, Gholdengo, and the many potent setup sweepers added from home. Though yes, by precedent OU has never banned , and banning the mons is usually prioritized over banning an item, a ban has been done before in SS RU, UU, and SS NatDex UU. In all these cases, the ban was regarded as a positive thing for the metagame because truthfully there is no downside to banning .

Even if you're unconvinced, I still think it's worth a shot to see how the playerbase feels about the meta with it gone.

 

[1LDK]

Wanst gonna post my opinions because I forgot what they were but the haha farming this could get deserves the post

gets a 10 from me, I would rather deal with Chi-Yu again than Cheems poo, fuck this thing

and get a 5, they do nothing but wall, they don't know about politics, they have no friends, no bitches, no archievment in life, he just WALLS, he will WALL the death of the heat in the universe, he will outwall us all

4, THE HAX, are too strong on this one, I haven't gotten any lucky stat changes, so I need to hax a bit more

I think I gave it a 4 I don't remember, anyway this thing used Surging Strikes twice (6 hits) on my zapdos and never got para, ban

3, Chesnaught checks it, so its okay

gets a 3, honestly I have no side on this one, I can support the idea but I'm not feeling strong at all

 

[Arc]

5/5 Not much to say here, but pao has been super oppressive even during the mag era of dominance; I saw a lot of people running band and just nuking everyone or going SD black glasses tera dark under screens and becoming kingambit+
Following Mag's ban I have been seeing a lot of Future sight -> banded chien pao/urshifu in the 1900s, and honestly I don't think there really is a counter for it tbh because literally if you can get pao or shifu in as the future sight strikes theres practically nothing that resists it
5/5 Ever since home came out I have absolutely hated these mons. Initially I was fine with Zama-H since choice band was the only good ish set but ever since people have been finding innovations for this mon and now there is this bullshit sub leftovers ID BP set that is completely ridiculous to face, mainly because of Zama-H's insanely high speed stat that lets it literally outspeed EVERYTHING except for pult or scarfed 'mons
Don't even get me started on zama-c since this thing has been an absolute nightmare because of tera. As someone who's been pro tera since gen 9 came out im just going to say tera makes this thing fucking ridiculous - not only is zama-c so fat it can pretty much tank everything (it takes under 50 from specs pult btw LMFAOO) its steel typing lets it now hit fairy types that resist its BP? and if u think u can bring out a great tusk or an opposing zama to counter this then guess what now you risk the chance of getting tera ghosted/flyingd in ur face and lose ur only zama-c check
now every body press does 80-90% resist or not this mon is stupid and idk why it was not banned alongside magearna
2/5 A lot of people have been complaining about the uncompetitiveness of this mon due to dire claw but after playing with sneasler and against sneasler a lot the main issue at hand is SCREENS. sure dire claw can flip a game but honestly id say 90% of the time I get a para or poison, the sleep just feels so much rarer even though the former have the same chance as it. its squishy as fuck and as long as its not on screens then I don't see a big problem with it, and dire claw at hand isnt a very spammable move since the poison typing on it really fucks it over hard
3/5 cocaine bear was 5/5 when it first came out but ever since then its only been used under trick room, which is very easy to play around since the archetype is so telegraphed, or under screens. with the prevalence of rain as well as this mons absurdly horrible speed, it would not matter if it can OHKO a dondozo or not if it dies first, and with the amount of rapid shifus ive been seeing everywhere as well as rain, this mon does very well for a few turns then just gets revenged killed lol
and in case u think this breaks stall theres this iron defense corv helmet set that makes the luna kill itself lmfao so no it does not 6-0 stall

Light Clay is a 3 imo. Before mag's ban about 80% of the games high ladder are fucking screens mirror matchups, and the winner comes down to luck. this was probably the worst ladder experience I have ever had; even worse than dracovish g8 or the iron bundle chi yu g9 before they were QBd. just running into mirror matchups of a certain archetype just shows how broken it is, and the reason im giving it a 3 after mag's ban (which was like the primary abuser of screens alongside shifu and sneasler and luna) is because now that mag is banned THERES NO PAO CHECKS BRUH
just run screens and put a SD black glasses pao and literally everything dies. its not fun and whilst theres been a lot more screens on ladder (thank god) its now just chien pao infestation, but what is for sure is that screens are still op since there are so many abusers
like bruh zama-c under screens is literally unkillable...

banning mag but not pao is the most clown move I have ever seen in my life.

 

[Morkal]

While y’all are in timeout, respond to the tiering survey: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/sv-ou-tiering-surveys.3711911/#post-9649755

And you can post your thoughts (civilly) later when this is open if you’d like!

Now that the most broken mons (Eleki and Mag) are out, I've found the meta to be really fun! Here are my thoughts on the Pokemon in the tier currently (they've also changed since a particularly wonky run of battles earlier today which changed my opinion on a few mons for teambuilding reasons).

I'll start with things that were on the survey -

Chien-Pao - 3

Chien-Pao has answers, but it still strains team building in a way that necessitates looking into. Its ability really is quite nasty along with a great STAB combo and fantastic coverage + Tera.

Zama-Hero - 2

I rarely saw this Pokemon in lower ELO, and in higher ELO it usually ended up being a fodder switch-in for many Pokemon. It's great; bulky, fast, and powerful, but it's not unstoppable by any means. Definitely one of the overhyped mons IMO, I think it has a healthy place in the meta currently.

Zama-Crowned - 4

As much as I love this thing, its ability to instantly turn entire cores on its head with a few simple moves is overwhelming. It's not that it's outright broken, it's that it has the Gen 2 Celebi in OU problem of just being way too hard to wear down consistently.

Sneasler - 3

Originally I was pretty scared of this thing, and I still am, but there is definitely quite a bit of counterplay to it. I still think that we should keep an eye on it, but it's not as much of a concern as I initially believed it would be (Swords Dance Red Card Unburden is still filthy though)

Urshifu-Rapid Strike - 2

One of my favorite Pokemon in the meta right now; I think it's healthy, but its power is just a "bit" aggressively annoying feeling at times. I really think that, if anything, Urshifu-RS got a little bit worse with one of its best partners (Regieleki) getting the boot.

Ursaluna - 3

I'm really split on this mon; on Trick Room it's an abhorrent nightmare, but otherwise, it's pretty easy to play around. It has fantastic power, great coverage, powerful offensive and defensive typing, and solid physical bulk. I'd like to see how the meta settles now that Magearna isn't around to be the best Trick Room setter anymore before casting judgment on this thing.

Light Clay - 5

I've hated Light Clay for a long time, no secret about that, but it's so easy to get screens up and keep them up now that entire teams are being built around it in an unhealthy manner. I've even started to see some players running the normally inferior Brick Break or other options exclusively to deal with screens. I would absolutely love to see Light Clay suspected in the future.

Pokemon not on the survey

Volcarona - 3

There have been rumblings about Volcarona for a while along with matchup fishing, and while I don't think it's "overwhelming", I think in its current form it's worth looking at once we handle some more pressing matters. Strong, maybe broken? Definitely worth looking into.

Samurott-Hisui - 1

Not broken; sure Ceaseless Edge is spammable and a great move, but even with Sharpness boosting some of its moves, you're forgetting that this is a Pokemon with 85 Speed, 90/80/65 bulk, and 108/100 offenses. Now if that Special Attack was lowered to 80 and the attack was raised to 128, maybe there would be an argument IMO. However, this Pokemon is nowhere near broken - a good B+ to A- OU Pokemon in my view.

 

[Tysonslayer]

(5): Chien-Pao is just broken not much to add for what has been discussed to death of how potent of a breaker it is and especially with Magearna gone means we have to use mediocre answers like the bulls or Tinkaton just to not auto lose against it, good riddance once he leaves.

(4): This mon is just as problematic as Crowned Forme, but without the steel type, higher defense, and the ability to run an item, while having the second highest speed tier in the tier for the relevant mons. Zamazenta can do the same thing with Iron Defense + Body Press not as oppresive but still deal fair amount of damage while can make use of Heavy Slam / Crunch to make up against the mons that can try to beat it while offensive sets like Choice Band can be just as problematic, if it doesn't get banned the meta will either adapt to it or continue struggling with it.

(5): Nothing forces this out immediately and can beat would-be checks with Iron Defense + Body Press pick the coverage move of the mons you want to build and have been seeing a lot run Substitute or Rest for a way to fend off against status condition that would've probably given it some problems, while not as common Howl + 3 Attacks is for a much more aggressive set but not as consistent is still a viable option.

(3): Pretty neutral with Sneasler, cause while yes Dire Claw is silly move that can let you beat mons that would’ve otherwise be an answer to it, tho at the same time if you aren’t lucky things can easily be against your favor which the unburden set kinda makes up for it to be fast and be a potent sweeper. It usually wants Night Slash for ghosts or Fire Punch if you want to slowly focus on Gholdengo, and Choice Band sets can be sort of exploitable by locking into a move you wouldn’t want to be locked in, while Pads/Boots can make for an effective pivot at the cost at probably missing some damage output. Overall whatever happens to Sneasler is honestly justifiable.

(2): Don't think this is problematic just yet mostly cause a lot of teams I've seen just don't prep for this mon due to generally messing around with the newer mons so some teams tend to just fold, definitely a mon to keep an eye as the metagame settles.

(2): Trick Room was what honestly made this thing pretty broken which got heavily carried by Magearna, maybe Trick Room will still be a viable option but def not as consistent without Magearna. While this thing hits hard even more so with Guts, it's still slow and very vulnerable to chip can hold it off and requires immense support to be effective, this mon will either be problematic or just bearable to deal with as we see how Ursaluna continues with post-Magearna ban, would also like to mention how defensive sets like Assault Vest may definitely have some merit in the future when things calm down.

(1): I find it odd that all of a sudden we find Light Clay problematic especially as Screens HO was picking up at the end of pre-home, but now it is considered broken when certain broken mons that are running around thrive in these chaotic early metagames where HO is usually dominant, but we find the problem in screens when some of the biggest boons in screens where inherently broken stuff like Magearna, Zamazenta-Crowned, and Chien-Pao while other mons make good use of screens aren't as problematic but we view it problematic all of a sudden with mons that thrive even more under screens make this particular playstyle problematic. We already faced this sort of issue earlier in the gen with Grimmsnarl HO was abundant earlier when we had Cyclizar Shed Tail offense and Annihilape, but when those two got banned the playstyle wasn't as common anymore with even Grimmsnarl dropping to lower tiers, so is the problem the screen and the extra duration or the mons that make the screen archetype broken.

Other thoughts of things I enjoy or dislike so far in this metagame:
: Enamorus has been really fun from when I’ve been using, main argument I seeis that this Mon needs Choice Scarf to be effective, while I believe it’s still effective without them thanks to it decent speed tier, Calm Mind + 3 Attacks, Contrary mixed attacker, and Scarf Hwish are fun, Specs most of the time feel it would be better with boots or just use Iron valiant if I’m running specs, def excited to see more of this Mon in the future.

: I honestly find this Mon overrated, it has to many flaws despite a great offensive typing and infamous Ceaseless Edge move, there was a good post here by Real_Corviknight explains more in depth of that Hisuian Samurott faces very well. More issues regarding this mon that it’s quite, sad that you might even want to run Hydro Pump to even immediately force out Great Tusk, also one issue is that Ceaseless Edge can miss and relying Hisuian Samurott as ur spike setter you want them to get up and hit something hard but if you miss you better pray the Mon is coming in or doesn’t hit hard cause losing your compressed spiker can blow. This is honestly reminds me of Swampert in DLC 2 SS OU a Mon that compresses a lot into a single slot but its flaws become more and more apparent as the metagame progresses that falls out, though my opinions can be changed if this isn’t the case.

: Very enjoyable to use and could see it be used more as broken disappear, and for a new cool tool with Taunt for passive stuff. With no Tapu Fini you don’t necessarily need Sludge Wave as much and can go stuff like Tera Blast Fairy, while can make good use of tera such as turning to a ground type that is immune to water.

: Probably one of the best mons in the tier right now, Assault Vest set are just as good as last gen while it can be an effective pivot with the new found Chilly Reception. We could honestly see offensive sets pick up once the meta settles, but for right now defensive are amazing making good use of its versatile movepool and enabling offensive threats with Future Sight, while it’s great defensive typing helps in taking on a lot of relevant stuff.

 

[Mojo-Robo]

(Disclaimer that it's been hours so I don't remember my ratings perfectly)

General Enjoyment I gave a 6. The meta is far too volatile for my tastes. An earlier criticism I saw was that we're being forced into building teams on the extremes of either HO or full stall, and I largely agree. My favorite archetype has always been balance/bulky offense, which I find difficult to teambuild and use in the current state of things, and it's pushed me to playing UU more which I've been enjoying a lot. I generally agree with the sentiment that a healthy meta is one where balance teams are one of the most consistent ones to shoot for, and that doesn't feel like the case right now. The most fun I get is when I end up steamrolling someone based off a few predictions, but the rest of the experience is pretty miserable.

Balance I gave a 3. The meta is extremely overcentralized at the moment, and a lot of my favorite mons and more unique team ideas I've crafted before and since Home dropped have felt neutered or ineffectual simply because I don't want to use the big dogs of the tier at the moment. I can't see myself playing OU much until more bans get handed out.

I gave a 5. This thing needed to go before Mag got banned, and it needs to go after, it's way too much. Its wallbreaking ability is vastly overtuned, and sometimes it just beats things meant to counter it. This mon vastly outclasses so many other offensive threats, both physical and special, to the point of absurdity. A meta where this thing has free reign is not a meta that will last.

I gave a 5. Its lack of versatility is really the only bad thing about it, the way it wipes the floor with you if you give it even just a turn or two to set up feels like a mini Magearna. The way this thing shuts down HO like it's nothing is downright insulting. Paradoxically I get much more annoyed seeing this in team preview than Chien.

I gave a 4 or 5. I surprisingly don't run into this thing much, but when I do it feels like I got caught with my pants down. It feels like fighting Annihilape all over again, where if you guess wrong on the tera this thing pulls out you might as well forfeit then and there. I really need to play against it more to have a solid opinion, but I can only see my rating increasing to a certain 5 if I do.

I gave a 3 or 4. Dire Claw is definitely stupid and dumb, and I see a ban being completely agreeable and reasonable, but I currently feel like it isn't warping the meta around itself enough to warrant as much discussion as the three above. This might change, but honestly its stats are nothing too special for an offensive mon in OU at the moment. I like Valiant's ability to scare this thing to death on the usual Pincurchin Electric Terrain teams I like running (unless this thing uses unburden in which case I WILL cry and scream and shit my pants)

I gave a 3. I definitely am annoyed whenever I face it, but I feel it's too outclassed for me to see it being an issue at the moment. I concede that this can change, and for it to get worse, same with Sneasler, once more bans get handed out. Surging Strikes is still a stupid move though.

I gave a 2. I could absolutely see it becoming much better later on, but I don't think that it's overcentralizing or too much to deal with at the moment. This is definitely salted with a large amount of bias, however, as I love TR and I still think Facade Guts is the funniest thing ever. The sheer power of tera normal guts facade is definitely one of the main reasons why I think tera should be banned, though. Losing Mag's TR is a big blow to it, though, and I think it's going to become more manageable.

I gave a 1. I firmly believe the only reason this is in question is because of the dominance of HO at the moment, and once the meta shifts away from that it will be fine. This is definitely a "look at much later" thing when the top dogs (and maybe tera) are banned.