Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v2 [Update on Post #5186]

[LoseToRU?]

Just remember that we’re all playing a children’s game, competitive or not. It’s not the end of the world if this becomes your least favorite generation, game freak has shown that these big mechanics are disposable to them, so it’s unlikely we’ll ever have to deal with Tera again.

Terrible and lowkey weird argument. Never heard of the logical fallacy "appeal to kid's game" before I started posting on here

With all due respect, that post has a ton of the same issues that yours do. Misrepresenting and mocking people you disagree with doesn't generally prompt serious responses. Listing one of the pro-Tera arguments as "Skill issue! Skiill Issueeeee!!!" demonstrates both a lack of understanding of the pro-Tera argument and a lack of respect. No one is going to respond to that in a serious way, because it's not serious. The problem with the post is that all of the pro-Tera arguments are either a) not refuted in the post; b) grossly misrepresented; or c) not even arguments used in serious discussion.

It's pretty clear to most people that Tera does take skill to use. It's also true that it can flip certain matchups in a way that's unhealthy. But the idea of whether Tera is broken should be considered in a metagame that is optimized to balance the mechanic, not one where the threats considered busted by the mechanic are still permitted in the game. The idea that it is a core mechanic is a totally fair argument, as is the idea that predicting 50/50's has always been an integral part of the game. If you think these are not worth it, that's a fair argument. Dismissing these as irrelevant is not.

It's also not necessary to debunk every point because there's some I agree with. I can agree with some of the points without agreeing with the idea of a Tera ban. I'd be happy to go into specific points on the post when I have time. I just had to get some things out now because it's silly that you think we have been ignoring some well reasoned piece of literature that objectively discredits all of our arguments. It was actually blatantly disrespectful and heavily relied on mischaracterized or fabricated counterarguments.

Strawman af, putting words in my mouth.
Never did I say tera takes no skill or skill issue, and thus everything else you wrote was just a waste of your time.

"I'd be happy to go into specific points on the post when I have time." patiently waiting for that moment.

you guys really say the weirdest things sometimes... do you mind going into a bit more detail about how you improving at the game and managing to ladder to a higher elo = tera being broken? because this argument does not make sense. unless you truly think you've stayed at the same skill level over months/years of playing (this does not happen).

Would you mind going in detail what makes tera not broken?
So far the only players I would consider great that are pro-Tera are Vert and SZ, which each have had some hot takes in the past (haven't we all lol) but like, even they don't really go into detail about what it brings to the table vs the problems it causes, and how it's worth keeping in spite of those problems.
Again, I point to Srn's post.

Clearly we have very different definitions of concise.

Mans literally breaks down each argument separately and give a 1-5 sentence response to each.

Granted, there is a lot of info here, but it is concise.

But tera, as we have said, is actually v complicated and needs to be understood fully to formulate an opinion on how broken it is.
Again, you can always just say you think its fun, but if you wanted to move beyond that talking point, he has each argument and its response listed in the post.
You don't even have to do them all, just pick some and give us your take on it.

 

[Mega Breloom]

Honestly bros, I think I gotta step off the Galarian Articuno hype train for a while. Call it a skill issue, but dealing with Tera Dark Clod / Ting-Lu is just too hard, and a well played Urshifu-RS can completely cook the bird too. Being SR weak, lacking self-sustain + coverage in one move, vulnerability to Toxic, and some Tera reliance are big limitations compared to Magearna, though the Strong AF Stored Power is nice compensation.

At the very least, the bird let me cheese some wins against players I've had no business beating, which is pretty nice.

Articuno is just Mag at home, honestly with all the amount of support and the need of a good match up you can do better running Volc IMO, when Pao and Zama(s) get banned and the meta became less HO I can see it and the screens team as a whole disappearing.

 

[Empress Mobile]

Strawman af, putting words in my mouth.
Never did I say tera takes no skill or skill issue, and thus everything else you wrote was just a waste of your time.

"I'd be happy to go into specific points on the post when I have time." patiently waiting for that moment.

Bro it's literally pulled from the post you're referring to. One of the counterarguments is literally listed as "Skill issue! Skiill Issueeeee!!!"

 

[Crimson Chris]

This Tera debate in a nutshell rn:

One Side: Y'all are wrong. You aren't making any logical arguments. We are objectively correct.

Other side: We are making logical arguments, stop being a bunch of assholes.

One side: No you aren't.

Other side: Yes we are.

Repeat ad infinitum.

This is going literally no where and is literally just a schoolyard screaming match, complete with text walls. No actual productive discussion is being had by either side with both sides honestly being quite unpleasant.

 

[Lily]

Would you mind going in detail what makes tera not broken?
So far the only players I would consider great that are pro-Tera are Vert and SZ, which each have had some hot takes in the past (haven't we all lol) but like, even they don't really go into detail about what it brings to the table vs the problems it causes, and how it's worth keeping in spite of those problems.
Again, I point to Srn's post.

No. I don't have to The result already ended. The onus is on you, as someone who wants to change the status quo - you've already done plenty of that, plenty of people evidently don't agree with you. That sucks. Oh well. I'm not rehashing arguments from months ago and you're not going to agree with whatever I say anyway. In fact, I don't want to bother engaging with you guys at all - every single time someone does, you immediately jump to some sort of attack on their skill level, complaining that they're not giving you "intelligent counterarugments!!!", or just whining passive-aggressively.

It doesn't seem you realise how obnoxious you're actually being. Nobody argues with you because they don't like how you're responding to the few people who do. It makes this thread insanely inflammatory for no reason.

I stopped reading there king. Also threw u a laugh react which I hardly ever do.

Classic

hope this helps

Like no shit nobody's gonna wanna deal with this. These are 30 minutes apart. Take some time to think about what you're saying if you actually want to get somewhere with your anti-Tera crusade and just stop being assholes to everyone who even remotely engages with you. It's annoying as hell to have to sift through this shit every single time I open this thread.

 

[Srn]

With all due respect, that post has a ton of the same issues that yours do. Misrepresenting and mocking people you disagree with doesn't generally prompt serious responses. Listing one of the pro-Tera arguments as "Skill issue! Skiill Issueeeee!!!" demonstrates both a lack of understanding of the pro-Tera argument and a lack of respect. No one is going to respond to that in a serious way, because it's not serious. The problem with the post is that all of the pro-Tera arguments are either a) not refuted in the post; b) grossly misrepresented; or c) not even arguments used in serious discussion.

It's pretty clear to most people that Tera does take skill to use. It's also true that it can flip certain matchups in a way that's unhealthy. But the idea of whether Tera is broken should be considered in a metagame that is optimized to balance the mechanic, not one where the threats considered busted by the mechanic are still permitted in the game. The idea that it is a core mechanic is a totally fair argument, as is the idea that predicting 50/50's has always been an integral part of the game. If you think these are not worth it, that's a fair argument. Dismissing these as irrelevant is not.

It's also not necessary to debunk every point because there's some I agree with. I can agree with some of the points without agreeing with the idea of a Tera ban. I'd be happy to go into specific points on the post when I have time. I just had to get some things out now because it's silly that you think we have been ignoring some well reasoned piece of literature that objectively discredits all of our arguments. It was actually blatantly disrespectful and heavily relied on mischaracterized or fabricated counterarguments.

I seriously respond to every pro-tera poster, especially the ones that misrepresent or mock me (see below). With all due respect, "Skill Issue" is the single most common response I get in OU room when I try to explain any anti-tera arguments. If you read the tera discussion thread before the suspect, you can find that every single pro-tera argument I respond to is real. It's very disrespectful of you to claim that anything on that post is fabricated without cross-checking. Many of the ones I respond to are direct quotes, not mischaracterized as you say.

you guys really say the weirdest things sometimes... do you mind going into a bit more detail about how you improving at the game and managing to ladder to a higher elo = tera being broken? because this argument does not make sense. unless you truly think you've stayed at the same skill level over months/years of playing (this does not happen).

As tigers jaw said, I was simply responding to a post claiming that if you're struggling with tera and believe it is unhealthy, it is because you haven't adapted. Could you read the posts that came before rather than claiming I'm saying "higher elo=tera broken" please.

Moreover, I honestly think that gen8 was more competitive than gen9 is now. I believe I reached a higher elo now bc tera makes this meta less competitive. If you put current me back in an active gen8 ladder, I don't think I could break 1900s.

I mean anecdotally when I quit gen 8 cos of how much I hated boots I was actually doing pretty well in that meta for long spells, but regardless I don't think everyone who thinks tera is broken is wrong or whatever. I just see a lot of people here who blame tera for literally every problem in the meta and it reminds me of being miserable playing gen 8. There's a sentiment that every loss to a random tera is like the worst thing ever and an example of why it's broken when I don't view it as overly different to certain random techs in previous gens at times. I also think its applications are pretty much equal for both players/all styles of play. In my experience the guessing games really feel unhealthy when playing with or vs ho and the nature of ou so far this gen has been very offensive which also contributes to people feeling its broken, but anyone who's played uu can tell you that an offensive meta isn't guaranteed with tera. I could go on about this for longer, but tbh I don't view it as an overly productive use of my time, which is why I didn't spend an hour responding to a post from 6 months ago in a different subsection, and instead tried to summarise the main argument that seemed to be going on there.

I want to be careful not to blame tera for every problem in the meta, but it's difficult when it's such an integral part of this gen. Like yes palafin was obviously broken, but it was tera steel taunt BU sets that really let it push past amoongus and become impossible to handle. Yes chien pao needs to go, but SD+tera ground, tera dark crunch etc all do a lot in making it even more broken. It kinda just exacerbates existing problems and also creates brand new ones out of thin air (regieleki).

Losing to a random tera sucks, and isn't much worse than losing to full para or crit or w/e. But while full para and crits aren't going anywhere, we can decide to get rid of tera and make the game that much more competitive.

I understand that an offensive meta isn't gauranteed with tera, but I think tera's most unhealthy application is when it can give an offensive sweeper an extra turn or a way to get around its usual answers. In this way, it's not equal for all styles of play or both players.

Thanks for the response, when you have more time I'd love to hear about the mindset thing btw.

 

[kosecant]

Terrible and lowkey weird argument. Never heard of the logical fallacy "appeal to kid's game" before I started posting on here

I was more saying we need some self awareness, both sides have been treating this like some sort of political crusade. It’s not that deep. We are talking about a mechanic that changes the color of our funny mythical creatures lmao, chill

 

[tigers jaw]

Lily how about you actually read & comprehend the post they’re responding to before going off on one. Not my fault, bud.

You came here, made a bullshit argument & asked a silly question which would’ve been answered if you did any diligence to even read the post that Srn quoted, and are now attacking us. THEN YOU HAVE THE GALL to say “nobody’s gonna wanna read through this shit”. Get out of here, lmfao.

Edit: and, along with Srn, given my current mobile limitations I’ve made an effort to respond to many pro-Tera arguments, with a few memes thrown in. Seriously. I challenge you to find a post in which I have been at all inflammatory, whilst in all seriousness.

 

[Da Pizza Man]

Lily how about you actually read & comprehend the post they’re responding to before going off on one. Not my fault, bud.

You came here, made a bullshit argument & asked a silly question which would’ve been answered if you did any diligence to even read the post that Srn quoted, and are now attacking us. THEN YOU HAVE THE GALL to say “nobody’s gonna wanna read through this shit”. Get out of here, lmfao.

Edit: and, along with Srn, given my current mobile limitations I’ve made an effort to respond to many pro-Tera arguments, with a few memes thrown in. Seriously. I challenge you to find a post in which I have been at all inflammatory, whilst in all seriousness.

You literally proved her point about the thread being inflammatory with this post.

 

[tigers jaw]

You literally proved her point about the thread being inflammatory with this post.

hey! after someone acts in bad faith, i am under no obligation to treat them with respect! furthermore, they said people (which includes me) were being inflammatory BEFORE my previous post. were others being inflammatory? probably, but i didn’t care to read the diatribes of a meaningless back & forth. just don’t include me with them when i did nothing of the sort.

the gloves are well & truly off when someone makes spurious claims & includes myself in it

try again

 

[LoseToRU?]

No. I don't have to The result already ended. The onus is on you, as someone who wants to change the status quo - you've already done plenty of that, plenty of people evidently don't agree with you. That sucks. Oh well. I'm not rehashing arguments from months ago and you're not going to agree with whatever I say anyway. In fact, I don't want to bother engaging with you guys at all - every single time someone does, you immediately jump to some sort of attack on their skill level, complaining that they're not giving you "intelligent counterarugments!!!", or just whining passive-aggressively.

It doesn't seem you realise how obnoxious you're actually being. Nobody argues with you because they don't like how you're responding to the few people who do. It makes this thread insanely inflammatory for no reason.





Like no shit nobody's gonna wanna deal with this. These are 30 minutes apart. Take some time to think about what you're saying if you actually want to get somewhere with your anti-Tera crusade and just stop being assholes to everyone who even remotely engages with you. It's annoying as hell to have to sift through this shit every single time I open this thread.

Why did I know that was going to be the response. That sucks.

The onus is on me, and so that's what I'm doing.
Evidentially, people do agree with anti-tera rhetoric, since it gets discussed in OU chat daily about how uncomp it is.
Our Tier Leader says there are aspects that are uncomp. I don't know why you're letting the same 5 ppl who religiously laugh react anti-tera posts leave you to believe the issue is solved and everyone enjoys it end of story.

Have never attacked skill level in my last dozen posts.
And, I'm not complaining about the lack of substantial, empirical, and well-thought out responses, I'm simply pointing out that Srn's post gets ignored and danced around and not engaged with at all lol

Poor form to take quotes out of context; when someone says "you're wrong but tl;dr" that's wild af.

And then to, ironically, hypocritically call us obnoxious, annoying assholes is just icing on a bad take cake.

None of us have been insulting, and in fact I've said several times that if you say you like tera cuz it's fun that's literally good enough for me and I still respect you as a player and respect your opinion.

Survey scores are historically low for an OU meta. We think a large part of this is due to tera, or at least I do, I haven't conferred with my friends here but that's my personal take.
I would ask you why you think scores are incredibly low for fun and balance, and have been dropping with each survey, but it's fine.

Lastly, the tera suspect was half a year ago. Things change, and have changed. It's far from a settled argument as we all know another suspect is on the horizon.

We know Pao and Zama are going, and Dire Claw is weird, so like forum isn't being ruined by talking about the centralizing and highly contentious gimmick that is actively pushing mons out of the meta. If that's annoying to you then idk what to say.

 

[Empress Mobile]

Well. This is gonna get locked again. In the meantime, what are people's thoughts on Zama-H once Zama-C inevitably exits the tier? Do you think it'll be more evidently broken? Do you think there are any cases where it could fill Zama-C role on a team, or do you feel it will function exactly the same as now?

 

[ant4456]

\\

So, ban things that generate free turns, OK. Beyond the status conditions you named, we'd also need to remove flinch moves, Encore, and Taunt - all of which serve to deny turns.

A flinch ban nukes the following competitively useful moves (note: some are primarily from lower tiers, but they'll be impacted by a policy change like this, too): Air Slash, Dark Pulse, Double Iron Bash, Fake Out, Fiery Wrath, Icicle Crash, Iron Head, Triple Arrows, Waterfall, Zen Headbutt, and the assorted X Fang moves. If we just ban the status while allowing the moves (which completely abandons any pretense of simulating cart play, but that's just collateral I guess) then half-ish stay used, but the mons that are relying on them are noticeably nerfed - only three of those moves have more than 80 BP, the flinch chance is a major part of their balancing.

Banning Encore is a buff to setup sweepers, and simultaneously a nerf to defensive mons that rely on it to handle those setup moves. Banning Taunt removes one of the primary tools of stallbreakers, and with a good selection of quality Unaware mons, it'd probably end up leading to something else being banned to allow the meta to breath. Both deny the opponent agency, and both provide at least one free turn even more reliably than paralysis or confusion.

There is no consistent policy where we start modding the base game like this without massive collateral damage, and I repeat: what we're left with isn't Pokemon. It's not even an OM, it's a brand new game.

i said it a few pages ago but some of yall need to play temtem fr

its a doubles only game where there is zero luck involved, going for that chess-like feel

it even has an in-game sim so that you don't have to spend 20 hours making a team, but has 50 hours of main story content anyways

i dont prefer it over pokemon but if you want to see the pros and cons / how to deal with the cons (temtem in general is really balanced to bulky offense, things do not take a lot of damage but healing is super nerfed) then give it a try imo

 

[BolTingBlazie]

Just gonna interact with some opinions on random mons

I will never see what's the appeal

I mean it can rarely sweep a team if they aren't prepped, but most teams are so its not that good. Can on rare occasions be threatening though, and rarely can provide a tiny bit of merit defensively.


PS: Also save the tera argument for the next suspect if people want it banned

 

[ant4456]

Honestly the Tera conversation can continue but nothing will be done until the World Cup is over. Tera was the closest vote (one of if not) I think in Smogons history, a very close call for some sort of restriction. Tera obviously has some uncompetitive aspects to it, it changes a Pokemons type and boosts its type power and you can use Tera Blast to abuse it. It's like Roulette, I think Tera Type Preview will fix a lot of the mental warfare oneself will have thinking what the fuck is this mon about to do? Banning Tera Blast wont fix much of the issue since part of the problem of Tera is defensive utilization. Preview takes out the guessing game while still maintaining the Gen 9 mechanic in hand.

The question doesn't become what will the mon tera to, but when which is just one less thing to worry about.

imo there has been wild mental gymnastics from people saying tera preview does nothing, I've even seen people here pretty much publicly scheme to vote tera preview "to make the mechanic worse and get people to eventually vote ban", which by the way, just shows that a lot of people don't actually have good faith in how to conduct the metagame

some have stated they would willingly make the game worse just so people will ban a mechanic that is at worst, split down the line

 

[Lily]

I challenge you to find a post in which I have been at all inflammatory, whilst in all seriousness.

On top of the one you've posted just now, here are two more from the past 12 hours:

tera was voted to stay and the community was way off the mark on this

i am unironically doing the principal skinner meme right now. you were all wrong.

smogonites read the ancient foundational policy review threads on consistent tiering challenge (impossible)

I will reiterate and hope it works this time: I am genuinely asking you to just relax for a couple of minutes and take some time to think about the things you're writing out. Stuff like this is going to raise eyebrows, even if jokes.

I'm happy to clear things up in DM if you would like to. This thread isn't the best place for it, and out of respect for the OU mods I'd rather not engage further here.

Srn - I read the post that came before yours and ended up with a different interpretation. I see now where your response came from, but I think you are being uncharitable with the person you responded to (or maybe I'm being too charitable). Either way, apologies - the same offer above is extended to you if needed.

 

[Lizzie]

I want to be careful not to blame tera for every problem in the meta, but it's difficult when it's such an integral part of this gen. Like yes palafin was obviously broken, but it was tera steel taunt BU sets that really let it push past amoongus and become impossible to handle. Yes chien pao needs to go, but SD+tera ground, tera dark crunch etc all do a lot in making it even more broken. It kinda just exacerbates existing problems and also creates brand new ones out of thin air (regieleki).

Losing to a random tera sucks, and isn't much worse than losing to full para or crit or w/e. But while full para and crits aren't going anywhere, we can decide to get rid of tera and make the game that much more competitive.

I understand that an offensive meta isn't gauranteed with tera, but I think tera's most unhealthy application is when it can give an offensive sweeper an extra turn or a way to get around its usual answers. In this way, it's not equal for all styles of play or both players.

Thanks for the response, when you have more time I'd love to hear about the mindset thing btw.

With regard to mindset I mainly meant that a position you could determine as clearly winning without tera (ie chien pao vs dragonite example) is no longer clearly winning, and this effects early-midgame play a lot. I kind of agree re sweepers getting free turns but I think this becomes more palatable when you have your own to react to it at least even if this isn't perfect. I also think we're seeing teams run stronger revenge killing options than they mightve in the previous gen to help combat this. I think tera blast is pretty dumb and is as big a factor in eleki being banned as tera itself and responsible for a lot of stuff becoming harder to deal with than it otherwise would be, and I would support that being banned. I just don't see tera as inherently favouring offense though, I actually for a while believed that stall/balance teams benefitted from tera the most because its often easy to figure out what you can or can't deal with on preview and save your tera for the biggest threats, although overall I feel that there's enough for more offensive teams to make up for this through gaining a free turn. Overall there are imbalances in the mechanic but I don't think it makes the games less balanced

 

[Lectrys]

Having been behind the 8-ball trying to get rid of an opposing ID-BPress Zamazenta-C with a special attacker with a super-effective move against it/him and still losing partially because that special attacker did not 2HKO, I decided to build a Zama-C team myself. Samurott-H to deal with Fires and Ghosts. Enamorus to take advantage of Ground-types and provide Healing Wish. A nice hazard remover. Gholdengo partially to screw over Toxapex. Dragapult to deal with Urshifu-R and pivot. I have enough support for one of the best Zama-C sets to shine, right? Make Zama-C specially defensive to prepare for the worst and give it Substitute for status and Tera Water for Rain teams and Skeledirge's Torch Song...

Then I lose games in a row in mid-ladder. My ELO plunges about 100 points. Lando-T decides to Sandsear Storm my Zama-C and wipe my Subs out this way. I end up needing to load a worn-down no-Tera Zama-C into Thundurus-T and the Thundy does this:

252 SpA Thundurus-Therian Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 224+ SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 93-109 (24 - 28.1%) -- 92.7% chance to 4HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Thundurus-Therian Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 224+ SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 138-163 (35.6 - 42.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
(+3 0 Def Zamazenta-Crowned Body Press vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Thundurus-Therian: 191-225 (63.8 - 75.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO)

I'm starting to regret giving Zama-C 4/5 on my survey (when I gave Chien-Pao 3/5 because it's felt significantly easier to snipe in comparison) - anyone know what I'm doing wrong (possibly besides missing Body Press 2HKO targets, not giving Zama-C Toxic (Spikes) support, and not using Screens)?

 

[Pinecoishot]

Also kinda wanted to join in the Tera ban convo since I used to be super pro Tera. I don’t really find Tera uncompetitive and I really do like the upsides it gives in creativity and teambuilding, but when I look into it it stifles those to a degree worse than shit like dugtrio/pheromosa/genesect and whatever broken mon you want to mention. I will also mention this from pre home since the new meta is not well optimized. Having to prepare for like Tera gambit/volcarona/dnite/valiant and even on the defensive side Garg is almost impossible in the builder. This compounds with the unpredictability of late game scenarios. A lot of my teams I made pre home were me accepting I would lose these specific match ups if my opponent played well and instead cheesing mu with Tera, letting set up mons set up in general mid grounds or counter with Tera blast or like Tera+sub. While this has always existed in Pokémon (Volcarona lol) I have never seen this many Pokémon be able to have 6-0 match ups due to Tera outside of like dmax meta which isn’t a good comparison. This makes ho super easy to build and pilot because I could just focus on cheesing my way past an annoying unaware wall/wall in general and set up on it, look into Tera flying ceruledge/flying valiant/ground volc/fire gambit/fire encore dnite. Which were all decently common sets you could cheese people with that ncluding more niche options. But yeah Tera makes set up mons dumb and makes end games horrible.

 

[tigers jaw]

Lily the first is quite clearly a joke, the second a tongue-in-cheek response to the previous ~10 pages worth of posts offering arguments directly against smogon’s tiering philosophy. Last response to you, whatever.

Also, I’m not going to give you the last word publicly in a cherry-picked, bad-faith response in a public forum, and then take the matter private to defend myself.

 

[skippergamez]

Lily the first is quite clearly a joke, the second a tongue-in-cheek response to the previous ~10 pages worth of posts offering arguments directly against smogon’s tiering philosophy. Last response to you, whatever.

I wouldn’t argue with senior staff tbh

 

[tigers jaw]

I wouldn’t argue with senior staff tbh

This will be deleted, but I care not for seniority. Are they sacred cows who must not be challenged?

 

[P3DS]

Well. This is gonna get locked again. In the meantime, what are people's thoughts on Zama-H once Zama-C inevitably exits the tier? Do you think it'll be more evidently broken? Do you think there are any cases where it could fill Zama-C role on a team, or do you feel it will function exactly the same as now?

Not sure. The ID+BP set could break again, but its not as strong as Zam-C. Plus, the loss of the Steel typing lets it be a bit weaker to common special attacks/special coverage. Mons like Valiant and Hatt can do some work against it and Torn's Bleakwind/Hurricane (And Zapdos too) can hit it well. The only downside is less SE damage from your format fire types. Physically, if its not BP, Zapdos-G can put in work with a strong Brave Bird.

On the defensive side, your usual crew of Pex, Clod, Zapdos, Dondozo, Tera Garg (Specifically Tera. CC obliterates straight rock), Gholdengo and whatever other evil BigStall(tm) is running these days, can make Zama cry a little, but the Banded set does have the edge with some fairly notable 2HKOes, like Wild Charge into Pex, or Ice Fang into Clod.

The only other problem with Zama-H is the item freedom and higher speed. It has a stat spread similar to Slaking/Regigigas, without the drawback of a bad ability, so, depending on how unstable it makes the format, and how well standard checks can beat it, we have to see.

As for its role: As stated above, its a breaker, with OK coverage to hit the main threats. It does fall to some 4MMS on the band set, trying to fit CC/Crunch/Wild Charge/Ice Fang/Iron Head/Stone Edge into one set. CC/Crunch/Wild Charge/Ice Fang is the current calc Nat Dex one, and the 4 I'd see as the most common. Iron head is there to break the likes of Hatterene and sneak a KO on an incoming Valiant, while Edge is there for the cocky Volcarona and Moltres users. ID sets could see ID/BP/Trail/Filler as the main set, and RestoChesto is possible to make this a little more dangerous, but ends up having problems with walls. There is a Howl set, but need to see how that actually plays out in practice, as not sure giving up a coverage move is OK.

 

[TCTphantom]

Tera can be dumb and Tera could have had a minimal impact on our bans. The two are not mutually exclusive.

In terms of banned stuff, most of it would likely have at least been problematic even without Tera. The only two that were 100% Tera casualties were Regieleki and Espathra. And I’m still not convinced Espathra wouldn’t be super dumb and annoying without Tera. Sure, Annihilape, Chien Pao, or Palafin were made *more* of a problem, but they all had inherently problematic aspects to them beyond one Tera set.

This doesn’t mean Tera is/is not/was/was not stupid. But the idea that the OU playerbase has been dancing around it just doesn’t hold weight. It barely did not get restricted in some way shape or form. IMO, this was mainly due to the pro ban side’s vocal minority. Many people (including myself but I was way too wrapped up in personal stuff to ladder) were turned off by this mindset. Personally, I hated the way Gen VIII OU turned out metagame wise. Tera was an escape from that. I still think that holds weight. Sure, preparing for Tera in its current state is frustrating. It also is a feels bad mechanic to lose to something like Gambit in the back. But it’s a lot of fun to mess with in builder. It’s fun to use Tera as an extra knob to turn to help tune your team.

I’m not in favor of a hard ban, but I think some sort of restriction would be healthy. Team Preview at least gets rid of some of the biggest feels bad moments with the mechanic and has precedent with Game Freak doing it for VGC. Does that fix everything? No obviously, but it fixes a lot of the guess work with the mechanic. I’d be open to further action if that doesn’t work out, but I think Team Preview is a pretty common sense compromise.

Well. This is gonna get locked again. In the meantime, what are people's thoughts on Zama-H once Zama-C inevitably exits the tier? Do you think it'll be more evidently broken? Do you think there are any cases where it could fill Zama-C role on a team, or do you feel it will function exactly the same as now?

I actually gave Zama H a 1 on the tiering survey. The biggest reasons were it’s a lot frailer than Hero and it’s ID BP set naturally is a lot worse without that steel type. I also think it’s way too soon to say if it’s broken. It’s a great mon into HO which is all over the place, and it’s overshadowed by it’s Crowned counterpart.

I don’t think it’s going to be as much of a problem after Pao and Zama C get nuked. It’s a lot frailer defensively than Zama C. That loss of a steel type also means it’s easier to hit Zamazenta H when doing its body press Shenanigans for decent damage. It also can be hit by toxic spikes, which is a huge blow to its survival. Future sight pivoting from the likes of Glowking will be huge against it as well. Fat teams also will be a ton better without worrying about Pao, and they handle Zama very well.

 

[Finchinator]

Tera will probably get a fresh discussion thread if it’s own and a PR thread in a month or two. Right now, I feel like there are some good points and some unserious points that are monopolizing this thread on one topic. Let’s just moove forward