Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v2 [Update on Post #5186]

[Ctann]

In hindsight scald really was the perfect move

- Water type and super spammable
- non contact
- 24 PP
- 30% burn, but fire types don’t like to switch in
- bonus thawing effect on the user, just because why not

It makes no sense why it was on everything lol. Makes dire claw look like poison sting in comparison.

ice needs to resist water,
Poison needs to be super effective against water

water type is too OP

-

Now moonblast is the new perfect spammable move lol..

 

[Just A Shroom God]

Honestly Sneasler doesn't seemed at all suspect worthy if Dire Claw didn't exist. My predictions about it being to get past its checks with Poison Touch CB sets were inaccurate due to the abundance of good poisons in the meta, and while the Unburden sweeper sets are threatening, it struggles to find coverage for everything, has a lot of midgame stops, and can't always find opportunity to setup. Dire Claw lets it do what I predicted Poison Touch would do- break its checks with a bit of luck. Furthermore, Sneasler isn't strong enough to be able to power through even offensive resists to its moves, which it will always have. Dengo, Corv and Lando beat it 1v1 whatever set, Slowking and Pex beat anything that's not TB ground, and literally all the other OU poisons barring Clodsire beat its CB sets. I'm hoping that Gamefreak gives something else Dire Claw so we can ban the move instead because I think Sneasler will actually be a healthy addition to the tier but unfortunately that probably won't happen. Definitally ban the mon with the move though, Dire Claw allowing it to beat literally anything with luck is unhealthy.

 

[Magcargo]

Yo, I never realized it since I never used Ting-Lu post Chi-Yu ban, but this mon is kinda cracked. Giratina level bulk + Whirlwind + Tera Ghost makes it a top tier mon at setting up hazards AND keeping them up on the field. Run it with Gholdengo and maybe a third ghost like Dragapult and you can basically ensure hazards are never coming off.

Against teams without a spinner, there is little stopping you from just spamming hazards and having a major advantage, though Hatterene is an annoying MU. Thankfully Ting-Lu's tango partner, Gholdengo takes care of hat decently well.

 

[Lobby Eeveee]

Dengo, Corv and Lando beat it 1v1 whatever set, Slowking and Pex beat anything that's not TB ground, and literally all the other OU poisons barring Clodsire beat its CB sets

Everything except dengo and corv loses if sneasler gets lucky enough. I agree that sneasler is healthy if it wasn’t for dire claw.

 

[Mimikyu Stardust]

So what're you guy's opinions on the following Pokemon post Pao and Zama ban:

H-Samurott
H-Decidueye
H-Typhlosion
H-Arcanine
H-Liligant
H-Braviary
H-Goodra
Enamorus-I
Enamorus-T

btw, how do you guys get the Pokemon sprites?

H-Samurott - Great mon, amazing ho lead, good utility/scarfer or balance
H-Decidueye - very niche defogger, not bad but dont expect much
H-Typhlosion - great sun breaker, not a staple cause tran and wake but def worth
H-Arcanine - decent breaker, can destroy a lot of unprepped team but still has p bad speed and relies on tera normal to beat offense
H-Liligant - amazing breaker on HO and sun, but wide lens is a fake item created by the fake news media
H-Braviary - worse galar-articuno, but its def p nice as a breaker, does a lot of dmg
H-Goodra - honestly, very weird, its got dialga level bulk but at the same time super passive, its def dropping but def can be explored more
Enamorus-I - i wont lie this thing is very underwhelming, yea scarf is really good but outside of that its so frail, requires so much prediction with its coverage, very awkward speed tier. it might be better now that pao is gone but def one of the biggest let downs.
Enamorus-T - Now unlike the incarnate form, this one is really good, like surprisingly really good, the dual dance cm set on balance and ho are incredibly deadly, its like the new magearna. I see people saying that this thing is trash outside of trick room, i disagree, this thing is trash in trick room but great everywhere else, try the dual-dance sweeper set its so good.

 

[Wesley23675]

Honestly Sneasler doesn't seemed at all suspect worthy if Dire Claw didn't exist. My predictions about it being to get past its checks with Poison Touch CB sets were inaccurate due to the abundance of good poisons in the meta, and while the Unburden sweeper sets are threatening, it struggles to find coverage for everything, has a lot of midgame stops, and can't always find opportunity to setup. Dire Claw lets it do what I predicted Poison Touch would do- break its checks with a bit of luck. Furthermore, Sneasler isn't strong enough to be able to power through even offensive resists to its moves, which it will always have. Dengo, Corv and Lando beat it 1v1 whatever set, Slowking and Pex beat anything that's not TB ground, and literally all the other OU poisons barring Clodsire beat its CB sets. I'm hoping that Gamefreak gives something else Dire Claw so we can ban the move instead because I think Sneasler will actually be a healthy addition to the tier but unfortunately that probably won't happen. Definitally ban the mon with the move though, Dire Claw allowing it to beat literally anything with luck is unhealthy.

Now I don't really agree that it has lots of checks, especially checks that can chek every set it can potentially run
I think it has ways to get around corv and lando tho, especially with grassy seed plus terrain
for corv I don't expect you to run a lot of attack evs anyways, so brave bird doesn't do a lot factoring in grassy seed defense boost. so if you switch your corviknight in the turn sneasler swords dances, it can swords dance again, live a hit, and OHKO with Close Combat.
Now for lando, I mean 1.5x defense plus grassy terrain really hinders earthquake's damage output, so again it can ALSO live a hit and return fire after 2 swords dances, again OHKOingyour supposed check to sneasler.
Tox just feels too passive and sneasler can just set up on tox really, especially when grassy terrain boosts it's longetivity
It's also a great tera user, with tera flying to boost it's acrobatics damage output, as well as avoiding OHKOs from certain attacks
Only options of actually walling it rom what I observe is unaware users like dirge or clod, but I think clod isn't really that reliable tbh.
and also keep in mind sneasler is made to be a lategame cleaner. it's not supposed to start sweeping when its checks are still healthy and only once they're sufficiently chipped, which honestly isn't too hard to do.

and also I don't really agree with it not having enough coverage to an extent that it can be easily walled, close combat + acrobatics + shadow claw/fire punch is pretty scary already when it's +2 or potentially +3 if you put corv or toxapex in front for it to setup and +2 in speed from unburden as well. Not to mention it can slot in gunk shot or his famous rng move in to potentially get rid of checks such as Zapdos, which would otherwise wall the set I mentioned just then. It definitely has enough coverage, it just has to forego 1 or 2 attacking types, but generally doesn't affect it too much lol

While priority may seem to be a way to get rid of sneasler, most priority attacks are physical, and that's partly why the grassy seed defense boost is so valuable. While you could argue it's still possible to pick off a weakened sneasler with kingambit sucker punch or whatever, sneasler would still probably have taken down like half of your team as you try to chip it into priority range. That is assuming you have a strong priority attacker like Kingambit lol. If you don't tera, which you really don't have to most of the time because your damage output is very high anyways - also another advantage of the unburden set - then it's fighting typing is also quite useful in resisting sucker punch, which is usually the strongest form of priority.

I'm aware I don't have any calcs supporting what I pointed out - since I'm too lazy :) - so feel free if u wanna calc it to see which checks really do work. Most of what I say is based on my experience using rillaboom + sneasler

 

[Scarfire]

So what're you guy's opinions on the following Pokemon post Pao and Zama ban:

H-Samurott
H-Decidueye
H-Typhlosion
H-Arcanine
H-Liligant
H-Braviary
H-Goodra
Enamorus-I
Enamorus-T

btw, how do you guys get the Pokemon sprites?

Shared my thoughts more extensively in a previous post of mine. The tldr was I think this mon is severe new toy syndrome, and isn't actually very good. Poor bulk, power, speed, in return for a broken move. Unimpressive.

Cool little utility guy, can defog and knock and has a broken signature move but overall its typing is pretty bad and its lack of speed is very painful. Fun gimmicky pick but nothing reliable.

actually pretty strong in sun, eruptions hit like a bus and it has a strong secondary stab to spam in shadow ball as well. Not bad, but kind of hard locked to one playstyle.

No surprise to anyone that banded hits like a goddamn train but its other flaws are extremely glaring. Mediocre speed, rocks weak, horrid defensive typing. I have enjoyed scarf a bit, scarfers over Baxcalibur speed tier and with this level of power are pretty nice.

Not as good as I hoped. Hustle is as painful as can be and its hard to use hustle sets without justifying dropping wide lens. It often wants Tera Blast to complete its coverage with CC and Ice Spinner, but tera blast isn't hustle boosted so the drop in damage is harsh. Also unlike volcarona this mon isn't bulky on either side or half as threatening so it is easier to just force out as it dances. I definitely could see it being used in OU often enough but poor typing, hustle agony, and its frailty is def really rough. Still one of the better hisui mons. Also there is some chances to be given to band or scarf, esp with utility moves like hwish or defog.

I was certain this mon sucked but many have told me otherwise and I have indeed been cheesed by on it on ladder. Even beyond just setup stuff behind screens, I have seen it running specs and its raw power is pretty unholy. Typing could do to be better but being a flying type is still great, and braviary is a good tera abuser too. Not a bad mon to run on random offences.

This thing fucking sucks it doesn't do anything and it has no role in this meta. I don't want to harp on it for long so I will just reiterate what CTC said about it because it sums up my thoughts. If you want to succeed as a defensive mon, you either need to be getting up hazards, getting off hazards, or coming in and getting out with either pivot moves or just general regenerator pivoting stuff. Goodra provides nothing. Garbage.

Both are pretty good. Enam-I has been very impressive. When it comes to choice sets I still prefer valiant, and on faster pace teams Valiant does most things better, but on more balance/bulky offence oriented stuff I really like HDB Enam-I with almost any set. 4a with superpower, calm mind, 3 special attacks + a utility move like taunt or hwish. Its really strong, has a nice typing, really fast. Like it a lot. Is frailer than you'd like sometimes though. Enamorus-T is like baby magearna cheese behind screens. Its definitely not half as threatening but you definitely will lose some games to this bastard using double dance sets.

 

[Vert]

sneasler, even with dire claw, is not broken

wow i went into my great tusk and got paralyzed! what a nightmare! totally more uncompetitive than losing your kartana / weavile to static / flame body last gen

a paralyzed or poisoned great tusk is still usable. a burned weavile is not. a paralyzed or poisoned landorus-t is still usable. a paralyzed kartana is not. sure you can get slept, but it's only 16%.... not a common occurrence lol

"use pads"
>why can't you use cloak?
"just don't hit the heatran or zapdos in SS then"
>you expect me to go the whole game without clicking attacking moves on my best 'mons?

these abilities can be activated via a simple switch. dire claw on the other hand requires you to both get in and position frail ass sneasler properly, then click a poison type attack which is not always the correct play. this 'mon is also invalidated by two common 'mons in corviknight and gholdengo. we have had fuckin' trophies decided by scald burns, but notice when the offensive 'mon gets the hax move players want to be vocal about "competitiveness." no wonder people say smogon loves stall

you're being brainwashed. wake up people

 

[Sylvi]

I agree that sneasler is not broken with dire claw and that hax from moves like scald robbed trophies before and the addition of dire claw won't change that. But having in build sleep chance was never been seen before. A burned Chomp or Dragonfire can still attack and do the nessecary chip in scenarios.

A sleeping Mon doesn't do damage and has to at minimum to burn a Turn to three. Unlike other Sleep Mons, you can't be prepared against it or you gonna be like "ye I am going to my slowking galar as a sleep sack here on a variance and only then go tusk" or something like that. Playing around the sleep is sometimes so dumb. I don't care that much about poison and paralyse (except u get full parad like multiple times in the row, then it is like sleep and is problematic.) Offenisive Mons can utilize those crucial free turns to setup or deal damage. You basically cheese progress, while defensive Mon have the chance to deny progress. While both are nessecary to win the game, being put behind cuz of sleep is way more frustrating then getting burned or shit since you have often multiple ways to force progress or you play accordingly not to setup turn 1 into scald. Also Sneasler is fast so u can move before your opponent and fish instead of being usually slower and fish for scald burn or other.

Basically sleep on potential full paras on a offensive Mon is bullshit but robbery has happened before and will happen in the future, that is true. Sneasler just add up to this problem in a whole, it just makes the problem more frustrating and boosts it.

 

[Blitz]

I agree that sneasler is not broken with dire claw and that hax from moves like scald robbed trophies before and the addition of dire claw won't change that. But having in build sleep chance was never been seen before.

Man, this is totally cap. Have you heard of Relic Song? You know, an offensive 75 BP move with a 10% chance to sleep you. Wait, it’s on Meloetta, a mon who’s existed since 2010 and who has Serene Grace! So it’s a 20% sleep chance instead.

Now you know why you (and many others complaining about Dire Claw) probably didn’t know this?

Because Meloetta is not a good Pokémon that can fish for this chance.

There’s also strats in prior gens with Secret Power cheese in Grassy Terrain (30% chance to put you to sleep), esp with Jirachi (a 60% chance to put you to sleep!), and yet the consistency of that was so garbage that it was nothing more than a cheesy gimmick you’d see rarely.

This isn’t a Dire Claw issue. It’s a Sneasler issue, and regardless, this mon is totally fine with this. Midsler tbh

 

[awyp]

From what I’m reading Sneashit needs a suspect test since it’s so split down the line that people think it’s mid or it’s the 2nd coming of Lucifer.

 

[Napoli Burns]

zamazenta normal for me is still severely broken

it can outspeed base 100 speed + nature with just few evs investment, tera fix the not-optimal typing of pure fighting turning into water (autowin against rains) or whatever u want, no recover move outside rest and leftovers but 660 defense after one iron defense is pretty hard to deal with

is garganacl on steroids, does not really care about getting rkilled by priority like volca, he does not need to choose a tera based on a coverage move like the moth for killing a counter

after the few unawere mons are gone from the opponent team is gg, toxic is viable only on few mons and it can always choose to run steel or poison tera

very low viable psychic and flying mons to deal with him, hard to taunt/encore since is 138 base speed, u can trick him with tera ghost + wwind like ting-lu but is pretty sad being forced to run a mon just for a single one that was supposed to be uber

3 banned mons as meta is still unplayable, ratio

 

[Mega Breloom]

Now moonblast is the new perfect spammable move lol..

There is zero drawback when clicking salt cure, even if the rival has convert you already won by making your rival wasting thier itemslot on something useless.

 

[Scarfire]

View attachment 524711
There is zero drawback when clicking salt cure, even if the rival has convert you already won by making your rival wasting thier itemslot on something useless.

Do not know if I entirely agree with the cloak being such a hinderance that you've "won" by making them use it. More often than not its run on mons that have that affordable slot like plot dengo, amoong, pex, etc. They negate dire claw and salt cure in one item and still get to have nice little extras like avoiding discharge/tbolt/nuzzle paras, mystical fire or moonblast drops, shadow ball drops etc.

Obviously you arent running cloak for those effects, but its still great value while also blocking 2 of the most busted moves in the meta. Very Cool. Thumbs Up Emoji.

 

[June Heat]

View attachment 524711
There is zero drawback when clicking salt cure, even if the rival has convert you already won by making your rival wasting thier itemslot on something useless.

For real though, the Garg is still really good. Though with the introduction of Urshifu-RS, and with rain teams being popular I feel like Tera Water is almost necessary on Garg.

 

[Mega Breloom]

Do not know if I entirely agree with the cloak being such a hinderance that you've "won" by making them use it. More often than not its run on mons that have that affordable slot like plot dengo, amoong, pex, etc. They negate dire claw and salt cure in one item and still get to have nice little extras like avoiding discharge/tbolt/nuzzle paras, mystical fire or moonblast drops, shadow ball drops etc.

Obviously you arent running cloak for those effects, but its still great value while also blocking 2 of the most busted moves in the meta. Very Cool. Thumbs Up Emoji.

I feel like the opportunity cost of running convert over any other item is huge, pre-Home non choice Gholdengo wasn't as great for example, Pex with boots, leftovers or black sludge is way more consistent. I understand that avoiding those drops/status sounds nice but in pratice those regen mons need boots to no be overwhelmed easily with hazards spam.
In the other hand dire claw is super meh, I see it less and less because people started to realize that it isn't as spamable as they thought because of its inconsistency. Yeah, it can allow you win games that you shouldn't but at the same time a better (coverage or power) move will win you mote games in the long run.

For real though, the Garg is still really good. Though with the introduction of Urshifu-RS, and with rain teams being popular I feel like Tera Water is almost necessary on Garg.

I always thought that water was the best tera for Garg, it simply gets better match ups (sun and rain are the biggest one that comes to mind rn) without opening yourself to stuff like Gholdengo or Gambit that were everywhere pre-Home.

 

[LoseToRU?]

FFS why do we keep going back to Sneasler?!

I don't even see/use Dire Claw on the unburden sets..
It's SD, CC, Acro, Fire Punch...

Maybe on Band/Scarf but like, it needs a good STAB, and at that it has to be locked into a Psn move...
And then at that point it's either cleaning or revenging something.. idk I slept in today and don't feel like stating obvious shit lmao.

If Dire was on like a bulky, passive mon then maybe, but like, we had Scald.. it doesn't even come close to Scald.
If Pex, or Ting, or Corv had a move like Dire then maybe we could look into it, probably not, but I would at least entertain the conversation.

Scald. Static, Flame Body... hell, I would even put Effect Spore above Dire when it comes to uncompetitive, undeserved Status.

I lost a battle the other day via burn by switching a Pult into Steam Eruption cuz I forgot about that absolute bullshit of a move.

Basically..
How TF is Dire Claw even in anyone's top 5 of things they would remove from the game?!
It wouldn't even make my top 10..

Dire is not going to be touched.
Move on.

 

[Mega Breloom]

FFS why do we keep going back to Sneasler?!

I don't even see/use Dire Claw on the unburden sets..
It's SD, CC, Acro, Fire Punch...

Maybe on Band/Scarf but like, it needs a good STAB, and at that it has to be locked into a Psn move...
And then at that point it's either cleaning or revenging something.. idk I slept in today and don't feel like stating obvious shit lmao.

If Dire was on like a bulky, passive mon then maybe, but like, we had Scald.. it doesn't even come close to Scald.
If Pex, or Ting, or Corv had a move like Dire then maybe we could look into it, probably not, but I would at least entertain the conversation.

Scald. Static, Flame Body... hell, I would even put Effect Spore above Dire when it comes to uncompetitive, undeserved Status.

I lost a battle the other day via burn by switching a Pult into Steam Eruption cuz I forgot about that absolute bullshit of a move.

Basically..
How TF is Dire Claw even in anyone's top 5 of things they would remove from the game?!
It wouldn't even make my top 10..

Dire is not going to be touched.
Move on.

Agree, IMO Sneasler has more potential to end on UUBL than ubers, unburden are the best sets and still needs support and good positioning to clean/set up, while stuff like Dragonite, Bax or Volc have less issues doing that.

 

[DeimosH]

Any way to make Tyranitar work this gen? Cbtar seems dead, assault vest is doable(?) and very fitting in some teams. Sand chip damage looks very valuable rn and i'm finding some slight success w/ ice beam and leftovers

 

[awyp]

Any way to make Tyranitar work this gen? Cbtar seems dead, assault vest seems doable and very fitting in some teams. Sand chip damage looks very valuable rn and i'm finding some slight success w/ ice beam and leftovers

It does work, now I haven't tested Post-HOME but I'm sure not much has changes, I used Tera Grass / SpDef variant as a Stealth Rock setter. Works pretty well.

 

[Scarfire]

Labbing our boy a bit. Unimpressed with Scarf, and specs is seemingly fine but all in all I think variations of defensive nasty plot sets are the way to go.

Gholdengo @ Air Balloon / Shuca Berry / Covert Cloak
Ability: Good as Gold
Tera Type: Dark / Fighting / Flying / Fairy / Water
EVs: 240 HP / 236 Def / 32 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot / Thunder Wave
- Make It Rain
- Shadow Ball
- Recover / Focus Blast

At base, Sneasler, Zama-H, Breloom (Lol) and Iron Valiants lose to this. I know CM or just shadow ball Valiants beat it, but with how much of a strangle Glowking has on this meta, I'd sooner expect most valiants to be packing knock off. Spread lives +2 knock (non tera dark).

From there, your choices of item and moves and tera dictate what else you beat. Shuca lets you take on Tusk so long as you play around avoiding the knock, and you can beat DD Baxcalibur. While shuca can also do the following, its more reliable to use Air Balloon to cover DD Dragonite and pivoting around Ursaluna.

Cloak is nice for beating out Garganacl and also being less annoyed by Enamorus' mystical fire drops. You can also avoid nuzzle para's from hatterene.

Twave is just moreso a more spammy move vs teams that don't give NP Ghold a lot of free turns to break, and focus blast can help clap kingambit, hamurott, ursaluna, and heatran.

For teras: Dark can help you take out Dragapult + Kingambit in one while also making Molres-Galar more 1v1'able, and you can also beat Roaring Moon. Tera fighting similarly keeps the dark resist but also opens up a +2 ohko on Heatran and not leaving you u-turn weak. Tera Fairy is kinda of catch all, yet again a dark resist but you are not fairy weak which is pretty important and overall its just a great defensive typing. Water is also just for good typing, but also allows you to 1v1 heatran better even if its not on switch-in. Flying just kind of allows cloak sets to have a mini shuca/balloon as well.

Definitely haven't found Gholdengo as amazing as it was in pre-home, but the gold remains good.

 

[UnusualBoy]

Any way to make Tyranitar work this gen? Cbtar seems dead, assault vest is doable(?) and very fitting in some teams. Sand chip damage looks very valuable rn and i'm finding some slight success w/ ice beam and leftovers

I think at this point the only way he'll come back to OU this gen is when he get more sand rush users or other pokemon that benefits from his sand. Although a new move could make it a good OU threat once again, we'll see what the DLCs bring. In the meantime Ttar is amazing in UU.

 

[incorolla]

Any way to make Tyranitar work this gen? Cbtar seems dead, assault vest is doable(?) and very fitting in some teams. Sand chip damage looks very valuable rn and i'm finding some slight success w/ ice beam and leftovers

Pre-home, my fave two sets were either Specs, or a fully special set with rocks and 3 attacks. Maybe some tera techs to get around Zama and Sneasler could be fun

 

[Pabloaram]

Pre-home, my fave two sets were either Specs, or a fully special set with rocks and 3 attacks. Maybe some tera techs to get around Zama and Sneasler could be fun

TWave + Tera Ghost. Both Zama and Sneasler hate being paralysed bc his speed are his biggest point.

But really Tytar need to embrace is UU placement in a world whitout Pursuit and Garganacl being a better Tytar overall

Do not know if I entirely agree with the cloak being such a hinderance that you've "won" by making them use it. More often than not its run on mons that have that affordable slot like plot dengo, amoong, pex, etc. They negate dire claw and salt cure in one item and still get to have nice little extras like avoiding discharge/tbolt/nuzzle paras, mystical fire or moonblast drops, shadow ball drops etc.

Obviously you arent running cloak for those effects, but its still great value while also blocking 2 of the most busted moves in the meta. Very Cool. Thumbs Up Emoji.

Add not being trapped/chip by Heatram or Av Pex... even that both AmongUs and Pex take a big viability hit with the presence of Glowking

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

actually yeah cloak works against dire claw almost as well as it does against salt cure now that i think about it. slightly less well because dire claw is also an actual move outside of the secondary effects (it's so fucked up that i have to pluralize "effects"), but it's still a good anti-rng tool. it almost—almost—makes me sad that scald is gone and jirachi isn't around right now