You know the more I play against it the more I want Light Clay banned. It's just such a frustrating playstyle to go up against. Yeah just slap on 4+ setup sweepers on your team, and pray your opponent doesn't know how to play against it. Such a horse dookie team comp that takes close to no skill(I know it takes skill I'm just mad). Anyways rant over.
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v2 [Update on Post #5186]
- Thread starter TPP
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Smh this is why you run LO over wide lens (Not to be condescending or smth sorry)
+1 252 Atk Life Orb Hustle Lilligant-Hisui Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 343-406 (85.9 - 101.7%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 Atk Life Orb Hustle Lilligant-Hisui Ice Spinner vs. 252 HP / 172+ Def Amoonguss: 432-510 (100 - 118%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 Atk Life Orb Hustle Lilligant-Hisui Ice Spinner vs. 252 HP / 40 Def Tornadus-Therian: 502-593 (138.6 - 163.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 Atk Life Orb Hustle Lilligant-Hisui Leaf Blade vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Pelipper: 265-313 (82 - 96.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
pex and dengo are a bit annoying, but you can break them eventually with team support
+1 252 Atk Life Orb Hustle Lilligant-Hisui Leaf Blade vs. 252 HP / 192+ Def Toxapex: 207-243 (68 - 79.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+1 252 Atk Life Orb Hustle Lilligant-Hisui Leaf Blade vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 192-227 (60.9 - 72%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
you need a fair amount of help for dirge and defensive dengo though
+1 252 Atk Life Orb Hustle Lilligant-Hisui Leaf Blade vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Unaware Skeledirge: 123-146 (29.9 - 35.5%) -- 28.5% chance to 3HKO
+1 252 Atk Life Orb Hustle Lilligant-Hisui Leaf Blade vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gholdengo: 136-162 (35.9 - 42.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
I'll always stand by my way of thinking LO is the best item cause it augments it's power at +1 to nuclear,+2 is just game ending
This was one example, and it falls appart with the intimidate coming first (that I didn't know about despite always chosing Lando in my teams).
The example wanted to highlight how allowing one team having the same item multiple time allows too much unpredictability for a competitive setting as it completely changes how you need to handle your opponent's team. The range of possibilities as well as your gameplan differ widely depending on the item of your opponent.
For instance you don't approach an Urshifu with choice band the same way as a choice scarf version or even one with Weakeness Policy. If you guess wrong your gameplan's shattered. And you'll need to play around that unkown factor via scouting, or even sacrifices/check mate scenarios.
Another example is Gholdengo if you have a Gargnacl in your team. You have a shadow zone regarding if Ghold has covert clock, choice scarf or a random anti-ground type berry. And if Garg is your wincon, your gameplan needs to include the elucidation of that mystery.
And I believe it is the same thing with Tera, where you need to carefully keep at a secure position despite the unkown variables, while keeping track of several mental "causality chains".
And I find the "intel gathering" of this meta fun.
I can play Kingambit the same way until I reveal my Tera because until you are in the Tera position it's the same Pokémon. You can't discern and then approach a Tera user the same way. I see Dragonite click DDance, do I go to Gholdengo to wall Air Balloon or do I go to a bulky water to beat DDance Tera Fire instead? You can't know until it's time to Tera. I have Great Tusk and I face a Kingambit in the end game. Should I click Ice Spinner thinking it goes Tera Flying? Should I click Headlong Rush in case it goes Tera Fire? You just can't know until it's too late, nothing to figure not, no way to look at team composition or environmental factors or largely how the Pokémon performs to tell. Sure certain Tera sets rely on certain Tera types, so seeing a mon click certain moves gives that away, but those are usually largely niche options.
Since Finch made a post home viability list, and because I'm sick of the tera circlejerk, here's some very rough viability ranking predictions. Some of these are pretty self explanatory, but I'll include notes when I feel they're necessary.
S
A+
(no defog, knock means kinda outclassed by tusk, still has intimidate, u-turn and ground immunity, so it's still really good)
(no longer hard walled by heatran, chooses its checks w/ tera)
(fantastic sneasler check, been using max defense, np, recover set recently and it's really good)
A
(insane damage output, but needs alot of team support, low speed can be exploited)
(really good fat defensive pivot, can set tr for ursa, provides future sight support)
A-
(best defogger, kinda passive tho)
(needs zama to go, will be alot better once that happens)
(see roaring moon)
(see roaring moon)
(walls zama)
B+
(losing defog hurts it, still good at punishing contact and pivoting w/ volt switch)
(has a hard time dealing with zama and urshifu)
(great at setting spikes, but super vulnerable to u-turn, fighting types)
B
(good utility mon, rock setting, defog, u-turn)
(stored power cheese, tera cheese)
(good coverage, but vulnerable to u-turn, many fighting types)
B-
(can punish intimidate and be a formidable sweeper w/ bulk up/agility)
(good heatran switch in)
C+
(great tusk better. so is lando)
(only good on trick room, which isn't a very good playstyle to begin with)
(niche zama, cinderace check)
C
(losing grassy glide sucks, but has a niche as a terrain setter)
C-
S
A+
(no defog, knock means kinda outclassed by tusk, still has intimidate, u-turn and ground immunity, so it's still really good) (no longer hard walled by heatran, chooses its checks w/ tera) (fantastic sneasler check, been using max defense, np, recover set recently and it's really good)A
(insane damage output, but needs alot of team support, low speed can be exploited) (really good fat defensive pivot, can set tr for ursa, provides future sight support)A-
(best defogger, kinda passive tho) (needs zama to go, will be alot better once that happens) (see roaring moon) (see roaring moon) (walls zama)B+
(losing defog hurts it, still good at punishing contact and pivoting w/ volt switch) (has a hard time dealing with zama and urshifu) (great at setting spikes, but super vulnerable to u-turn, fighting types)B
(good utility mon, rock setting, defog, u-turn) (stored power cheese, tera cheese) (good coverage, but vulnerable to u-turn, many fighting types)B-
(can punish intimidate and be a formidable sweeper w/ bulk up/agility) (good heatran switch in)C+
(great tusk better. so is lando) (only good on trick room, which isn't a very good playstyle to begin with) (niche zama, cinderace check)C
(losing grassy glide sucks, but has a niche as a terrain setter)C-
I got in these kind of situations a lot too, very frustrating, but it's like a match's outcome being decided by Sucker Punch 50/50 (or any kind of 50/50 or 33/33/33) imo : I shouldn't have been in that delicate situation to begin with.
I should have set-up my wincon before hand, added spikes, let my RH/intimidate/encore mon alive, etc.
I have an unkown variable, I try to play around it
Encore (Dragonite, Scream Tail, and many other viable users), Knock Off, hazards, (wonder who has these 3 traits uhuh... HSamurott uhuh...) etc. can help circumvent these teams I think.
I find rain teams far more frustrating to deal with in battle personally, for the same reasons you list.
But they make teambuilding far more enjoyable as you try to engineer options and scenarios for each of these match-uo fishing teams.
Hoodra C-?Since Finch made a post home viability list, and because I'm sick of the tera circlejerk, here's some very rough viability ranking predictions. Some of these are pretty self explanatory, but I'll include notes when I feel they're necessary.
S
A+
A
A-
B+
B
B-
C+
C
C-
Just Asault Vest variant lets you completely wall every single spe.att. of the tier while making progress thanks to juicy 0hkos and 2hkos + dragon tail really helps against the set-up rage in the current meta.
Since Finch made a post home viability list, and because I'm sick of the tera circlejerk, here's some very rough viability ranking predictions. Some of these are pretty self explanatory, but I'll include notes when I feel they're necessary.
S
A+
A
A-
B+
B
B-
C+
C
C-
Lots of these are weird and don't make much sense. Glowking is an easy A+ minimum given how huge a glue it is for team building, and how versatile it is. Zapdos is an excellent pivot and the defog loss, while it sucks more for general team building, doesn't take away from Zapdos ability to check what it checks, which is a lot. And static is as dumb as ever. It's an easy A rank mon minimum. Garg also doesn't auto lose to Urshifu with tera water, and is itself still a hugely important mon in the meta. It is nowhere near that low. ArticunoG is a painfully obnoxious force on screens teams, good enough to be recognized. It isn't nearly that low either. Also what the heck is Magnezone doing in B+. And Greninja has no business being that low either.
No don't you see, it's only broken because of the 2 dozen broken setup sweepers in the tier, once everything with a boosting move is banned we will stop seeing this playstyle, etc
No competent screens player is leading Dragapult if Samurott shows up in team preview
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If I am understanding this quote correctly, the basic argument is “Pokémon is a game of imperfect information. You don’t know your opponent’s moves nor items, and in some generations you do not even know what Pokémon they have. Banning/restricting for Tera for this reason would be hypocritical because information management is a part of 6v6, and Tera is simply a part of this.” To be fair, this is a perfectly respectable position to take, and many experienced players will share this opinion. However, there are two main counterpoints to this - first, many people want to ban/restrict Tera for reasons beyond the information management perspective. Number two, which I will elaborate further, I think that Tera type management is much different than other types of information management.
Basically, when a single Pokemon can run multiple Tera types, this Pokemon can usually 1) be played very similarly before using its Tera type and 2) have drastically different matchups depending on its new typing.
Let’s take Chien Pao as an example (Chien-Pao is banned, ik, but it is illustrative). If your opponent has Pao, you do not know its moves or its item. You can sometimes gain hints from their team structure, but you really would just be guessing from preview. It is very difficult for your opponent to disguise its item - if Pao takes no entry damage, then it is hdb; if it takes LO recoil, it is LO; otherwise, it is band or glasses, which you can sometimes use either a calculator or other context clues (the way they play it, the moves they choose) to figure it out.
Suppose your opponent has Volcorona, in a meta game with Tera. We can see the difference in the ability to scout - there are no “tells,” only those context clues which can be unreliable and easily concealed by good play by your opponent. You can only know its Tera type after it terrastylizes. This is my first point - Tera is much more difficult (borderline impossible) to scout on Pokémon that can have multiple different Tera types.
Getting back to Chien Pao: you see that it has hdb, but you don’t know its moves - it can have ice shard, it can have swords dance, and more. However, more often than you would think, the specifics of the set don’t matter. No matter what, your dondozo can walk it or your dnite can revenge kill it. Generally speaking, a Pokémon that matches up against one set of a Pokémon very well will also match up against other sets very well. So even though you don’t have perfect information, you don’t need perfect information to choose an action.
Comparing this with Volcorona, a tera grass Volcorona has a completely different matchup chart than water, bug, or ground Volcorona. Therefore, without that information, you are pretty much forced to guess, and guessing wrong can lose you a game. There are few middle-grounds. This is much different than moveset and item diversity, as while they are important, they often don’t result in as vastly different outcomes as tera might.
These two differences (the inability to scout and the severe consequences for a failure to scout) differentiate Tera from other pieces of hidden information.
Volcarona and Magearna are exceptionally poor examples to use here. Volcarona has always been a matchup reliant, "pick your own counters" Pokemon. This dates back to Gen 5, where some argue it is broken to this day. Yes, Tera exacerbates this. Magearna on the other hand is hilariously broken in its other qualities that Tera is barely even an afterthought. If anything Tera is a liability for it because of the sheer number of Pokemon that gain super effective STAB coverage on it through Tera if it retains its excellent base typing. Regieleki is fair though.
Praise for volcanion. FINALLY someone realizes it's goodI don’t want to reveal too many of my secrets before WCOP, but one thing I find criminally underrated and I’ve been having success with across the entire matchup spectrum has been
Volcanion @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Water Absorb
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 152 HP / 252 SpA / 104 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Steam Eruption
- Flamethrower
- Fire Spin
- Taunt
Speed outruns Ursaluna’s maxed out variant we occasionally see outside of TR and pretty much every Kingambit, special attack is maximized, and HP actually comes in clutch against a few EQs and Dragapult attacks.
The premise of the set is to take the already strong profile of Volcanion, who poses a threat as a special attacker, and make the most of it as a team supporter and in less ideal matchups for its offensive profile. You’re able to trap virtually anything on ladder stall right now, which comes into play the most against Blissey and Toxapex. You’re also able to disrupt pivoting around one STAB to bait another if you time Fire Spin nicely as a middleground. Taunt in general also helps prevent a couple of things.
Finally, Tera Fairy is a gigantic assist in the Walking Wake Sun matchup as you retain Water Absorb and can be immune to both STAB. Similar dynamic with Urshifu-Rapid, who cannot Surging Strike you and suddenly had CC resisted after you Terastallization. It also was great when Pao was allowed and still helps you walk physical Dragapult, take neutral damage from EQs, and even can flip the Roaring Moon and +2 Kingambit matchups as they begin to resurface.
Also, trapping moves are kinda cracked and underrated this gen (see pre HOME Jaw Lock Roaring Moon winning games on it's own)
Was scanning this thread for any discussion on houndstone that doesn't relate to Last Respects, and couldn't really find anything. I've been excited for it to drop back down to OU, because it always had the qualities of a very good spinblocker, due to fluffy making it considerably bulkier than all other options .
And it's been great! With max bulk and fluffy, it's a much safer switchin to rapid spinners even if it takes a knock off, something that most other ghosts are less able to do, especially if they are offensively biased.
Besides spinblocking, it is a great blanket physical check that burns or forces out many popular physical attackers.
Been trying something like this:
Houndstone @ Leftovers
Ability: Fluffy
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spe
Impish Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Will-O-Wisp
- Night Shade
- Body Press
- Protect
Notable things this Houndstone checks/counters:
Hopefully this form of Zamazenta will drift back up to ubers with its other form, but until then, Houndstone reliably answers the obnoxious Iron Defence/Body Press set, and breaks substitutes handily with Night Shade, with Zama's unboosted crunch dealing next to nothing in return. Two of the best OU spinners really struggle to push through Houndstone, meaning your hazards can stay up longer. Earthquake is their best option if they run it, but the net damage will be much lower if you factor in Protect + leftovers recovery. Worst case, even if you lose leftovers to a knock off, you still normally live the follow up attack.252 Atk Great Tusk Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fluffy Houndstone: 77-91 (22.1 - 26.1%) -- 7.7% chance to 4HKO
252 Atk Great Tusk Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Houndstone: 118-141 (33.9 - 40.5%) -- 46.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
So you can still threaten a burn, force a switch, and keep your hazards up even longer. Note that the fluffy-resisted Headlong Rush is often seen over Earthquake on an offensive tusk.
This is more "for sake of example" than a " dedicated ursaluna answer", but the numbers are still cool:252+ Atk Guts Ursaluna Headlong Rush vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fluffy Houndstone: 123-144 (35.3 - 41.3%) -- 78.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Being immune to facade, it can switch into it quite well and wear it down with Body Press + Protect, which has the bonus of stalling out any trick room turns. But you'd rather focus on keeping ursaluna out of trick room in the first place and not let it weaken you too quickly.
Ursaluna is an extreme case. More to the point, Houndstone pulls its weight in many games beyond keeping hazards on the field, as there are a lot of physical attackers that rely on contact moves that it easily limits for its team: it can land a burn or force a switch from the threat of a burn. Even moves like a super effective Max attack Ceasless Edge, for example is a 4HKO after leftovers recovery...before protect usage. So if you need an enemy samurott burned, you won't have to struggle too hard.
I think this is also neat that it can take the following hit this well (might be worth moving some bulk investment to speed for outpacing gambit to KO with body press/ threaten wisp into sucker punch).
252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fluffy Houndstone: 169-199 (48.5 - 57.1%) -- 44.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
It lacks reliable recovery, and it will be KO'd by certain non-contact moves (such as multihits from mons such as Breloom or Baxcalibur or pads urshifu), but it's great against the best current hazards setters, moreso with grassy terrain support, and winning has matchups against many popular attacks. It's been living up to expectations so far.
That’s not the point. Volcarona has always had counterplay and Tera is a big “fvck you” to standard gameplan against it or prep your team to not get swept. Tera leads to too many backwards situations to where now I have to predict which type Volcarona will change to and there is no “rule” saying it will always Tera into Water or Grass. This goes for any sweeper. I genuinely do not understand the defense of this mechanic.
The other day I sent out Urshifu to check a random Weavile on the ladder, only to get promptly deleted by Tera Electric. To me it has just made battling feel toxic.
https://pokepast.es/9078cb9dfce59d78
Wanted to share a set where Basc relies on Agility to gain Speed instead on Rain & Swift Swim. That way, you can have Adaptability & just Spam its STABs.
Wanted to share a set where Basc relies on Agility to gain Speed instead on Rain & Swift Swim. That way, you can have Adaptability & just Spam its STABs.
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This is why Tera preview is a wonderful solution, emulating the "Open Team Sheets" of VGC.
Just imagine this HUD or something similar visible on each battle for both teams:
This is why Tera preview is a wonderful solution, emulating the "Open Team Sheets" of VGC.
Just imagine this HUD or something similar visible on each battle for both teams:
Off topic, but they should replace the Tera type image with the Tera type crystal image to make it less confusing.
I'm sure this is answered somewhere else but whats the go with species clause and regional variants? They're obviously different pokemon its not like rotoms "forme change" for example
I only bring it up because pokemon like galarian zapdos and native slowking will be lower on viability rankings than they deserve to be simply because choosing them means not running the other regional variant, even if they fill different roles for the team. Seems a bit silly to me
I only bring it up because pokemon like galarian zapdos and native slowking will be lower on viability rankings than they deserve to be simply because choosing them means not running the other regional variant, even if they fill different roles for the team. Seems a bit silly to me
jirachi is uncompetitive too, everyone's just afraid to come out and say it because it isn't new and flashy. if jirachi was a new mon introduced in gen 9 it would have been banned twice by this point. we all know it and i'm honestly surprised it's survived this long, especially since it was directly responsible for an entire clause in gens 3 and 4 (although, to be fair, that change was made pretty recently). there's my nuclear take of the week, jirachi has always been banworthy and it should have gone with king's rock
same with volcarona, that mon's been a blatant matchup fish since the day it was born and it's never been healthy, glad to see people finally coming around on that
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yeah wtf 100/100 offensive stats vs 130/120 and with tera you have opportnity to swords dance, I think this is a whole different kettle of fish. Theres a lot of talk about dire claw as an unfair move but its really not the only thing that makes sneasler questionable.
oh it absolutely is the only thing that makes sneasler questionable. it would be a good mon without dire claw, but not broken by any sense of the word. well, at least not as i can see it right now—any speculation about dire-claw-less sneasler is theoretical until either another mon gets the move or tiering policy changes to cover the rapidly growing problem of overpowered signature moves
agree, unburden set with seed is a really effective lategame cleaner as well, I do feel like it's a tad bit underrated
Honestly though, Sneasler would be suspect worthy even without Dire Claw. Unburden sets would just use Gunk Shot, which is more reliable in getting KOs. Its main STABs with coverage it can run is honestly a bit too much. Most common coverage is Acrobatics, but have options like Night Slash/Shadow Claw, Fire Punch, and Tera Blast Water (for Landorus while also hitting Gholdango neutrally)
If by healthy you mean "Run Heatran and Clodsire and if you guess the set wrong you lose" then no. Magearna wanted to keep Steel/Fairy until one of those two switched in - then it switches to water and nukes them to high heaven with a boosted attack. Now none of your Pokémon can outrun and kill a +2 Spe Magearna with great bulk and a free +1 Sp.Atk boost on top of what it already has.
It forces the game into a formula and it's in no way good.
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