Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v2 [Update on Post #5186]

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CTC said:
Like Vert mentioned, we have suffered through a boring generation of SS and a near unplayable shed tail meta which included espathra for 3 months, we see the capabilities lacking, and as a community we must speak up. Players and community members such as myself, Blunder, and Pokeaim would love to offer our insight to the council, because not only do we play competitively and are involved in the peak ladder ecosystem, we also have our ear to the streets via feedback from videos and posts on their respective walls.
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Aside from how comically supervillain esque this and a certain other player's post is, I find it funny you can accuse people of a lack of metagame knowledge and then claim Volc's best days are behind it... When that couldn't be further from the truth? Many of its former best checks are harder to fit, and realistically still lost to a set it had. Heatran ceases being a check when tera exists and tera water Volc trolls rain teams.

Also you guys need to stop bitching about SS. It wasn't for everyone. But it wasn't at all a bad tier. And blaming council for shit like Espathra or the shed tail meta is absolutely goofy when that was a shitty situation no one liked. Lastly

CTC said:
Source: your ass
Ill give u 50 bucks if you provide proof of top 100 ladder rank right now
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Acting like a five year old instead of making a reasoned response does nothing for your argument. You're a great player, but don't act toxic just because you think you're right.
 
Magcargo said:
Like all rocky relationships, the one with Volcarona was always troubled, but OU Council tolerated it for the children (the playerbase).
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Not at all, clearly the council didn't care or they wouldn't have 0-9 voted in the first place, this was a knee jerk reaction for WCOP, which a larger majority of the showdown playerbase doesn't involve in or care about, its strictly high elo and their feelings are very mixed about it from; 'they never see it' to 'suspect worthy'. Volc is an asset to the SV meta being a good check to key problems (kingambit, and valiant stick out) while having plenty of counterplay itself, its purely indicative on the tera argument.. can't you tolerate the variance of tera? No? Then you likely can't tolerance the variance of volcarona because its tera: the pokemon.. can you tolerate tera? Then there's absolutely no fucking argument for volc cause you can swap 'volc' for 'tera' in any argument and it fits. Banning volc seems like trying to remove something that gaslights tera the most for the sake of it, either proving tera is fucking toxic by banning another pokemon cause of it or making it seem more tolerable once threats are gone, and its still not tolerable just moved on to the next problem.

50 survey mentions is still a vocal minority, there was significantly more for tera and tera didn't get quick banned or even so much as put on the radar :v4:

Like it or not, this forum and the survey is still a small portion of the showdown playerbase, most are smart enough not to engage in anything they care about, this was something that felt extremely dumb and now we're seeing a lot of sleeping giants wake up.
 
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CTC said:
Source: your ass
Ill give u 50 bucks if you provide proof of top 100 ladder rank right now
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Oof man, still not there yet, though rn is the highest I've ever been on the ladder lol
1686525653934.png
NGL, I am only here because I stole some OP hazard stack team & will likely drop from top 500 the next time I start laddering.
 
It would have been nicer to do a symbolic 5-4 vote on Volcarona to push a sentiment

big big big mistake to quickban it tho

it’s simply not in the same ballpark as the others. How the hell is the “this needs a quickban” conversation even the same for volcarona and Magearna. Completely different dominance levels.

Urshifu is less contentious because people can see it’s clearly warping the meta.

meanwhile Volcarona had good matchups vs magearna and Sam-hero, both are no longer in the meta.

Volcarona is now more predictable than ever before, since some threats like Dragonite is such a low priority compared to its need to get past skeledorge and Heatran.

did we give time for the meta to adapt?
 
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WohMi said:
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Just a funny coincidence I noticed: All of the mons currently listed in "A+" on the viability ranking can be used as setup sweepers and use tera/terablast to beat their counters. Thinking it over... What does Volc do that they don't? Banning volc isn't going to drastically reduce the amount of Unaware or Priority seen in the tier, you still have these monster setup sweepers that try to sweep in an incredibly similar manner of Volc that you'll have to play a guessing game on "Damn, which Tera are they gonna turn into?"

This does not seem like a Volcarona issue, and rather a Terastalize issue, and Quickbanning Volc is not going to help the problem.
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I'll be the first to say that I enjoy Tera, but I have HATED Volcarona since gen 6. Volcarona defers from the other mons you mentioned because it had access to moves like will-o-wisp, morning sun, offensive healing moves like giga drain, it's (formerly) signature Fiery dance, and of course Quiver dance. It could be bulky or offensive. It could afford to run Boots because it's abilities were good enough and it's set up move was superb. And this was before Tera was added. Giga Drain + Fire move hit's just about every mon for at least neutral as far as coverage is considered, so Tera Blast wasn't a big move sacrifice.

Of the listed mons, Bax is amazing but actually suffers from 4 move slot syndrome because it's typing +DD is great offensively but not defensively. It CAN run tera blast, at the cost of a Glaive rush, Ice shard, or EQ (and it want's all of these moves.)

Moon is strong as well, however it and Valiant share the same flaw- it's ability. Sure they can set up and both can use Tera blast... but why? Valiant is frail so it want's to use booster energy, and both physical and special variants have an extensive move pool with coverage moves much higher than an 80 BP STAB. Meaning if you can force the out, they are subjected to hazard chip and now lose said boost. Which again, the boots wearing healing moth didn't care about as much.

Garg is Garg, but post HOME release it's set up sets are worse than Zama-H and would much rather be used to wall instead.

And that leaves Dragapult, which is an amazing mon that can be both physical or special, but lacks the needed bulk/recovery to fill Volc's niche fully. The loss of Chien-Pao DOES make this mon better, but both it's STABs can be negated and while it can run Tera Blast... why would you over it's extensive move pool. Bottom line is the above mons all have a glaring flaw, which Volc could choose which flaw it had.

Now since everyone is commenting on their take on the bans, I might as well chime in. I don't believe the way the ban was conducted was in good taste given the results of the survey, but I get it. Volcarona needed to go IMO given it's long standing history and simply not slowing down in what it does best even with the addition of so many new mons. Urshifu is surprising given the community reaction to it in the survey. However I can't ignore the fact that it got three amazing boosts this gen in SD, Trailblaze, and Punching glove, all moves/items that seem tailor made to make this thing broken. While I would have preferred a suspect for this mon, I can see the councils point of view in QB. I can absolutely see this thing shaping the meta in the near future.
 
scarlet and violet came out on the 18th of november 2022, home update came out may 29th. yall had 192 days to look into volcarona and how it might be broken with tera, but nothing was done about it. and now that home comes out, literally nothing changed intrinsically about volcarona itself, its being quickbanned with no community say? this is completely absurd. volcarona may very well be broken, but this was handled awfully. couldnt yall suspect test it instead?

i get the quickban format at the start of a generation or when a big change like home occurs, but it should focus on the new things, not be a cheap way to ban a pokemon that was already there and wasnt looked into at all in the 200 or so days before. please i suggest yall strongly consider suspect testing volcarona in the near future (either free it now and suspect, or suspect it as a drop from ubers), just let the community have some say. there's absolutely 0 way a mon that wasn't suspect tested or looked into pre-home is now suddenly so broken that it needs to be quickbanned, this is insane
 
LoseToRU? said:
Fun reminder that no pro-tera player is allowed to say a single thing about Volc and Urshi lmao

This is literally what you wanted

You would play w LC mons in OU if that meant u could keep goofy tera.
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I saw literally zero complaints about Urshi but reading the forum after the ban, yeah it was absolutely banworthy. Volc was insane with tera tho. But keep crying lmao
 
I think it'd be funny if people started to clamor for a moth retest and it stayed banned.
i do think the ban was hasty, and i feel the justification to give a better meta for wcop is flimsy though (but also I'm just some rando who thinks tournaments should just cope w bad metas over getting alterations made Just For Their Sake). I get that you can't really qb tera but you can qb one of its worse abusers, but people have been coping with volc around for years, no one would really bat an eye about it staying for now, and then being under a supect test later even.

I don't like the philosophy of banning/suspecting things for the sake of tournaments. The metagame, ladder, players and its history etc will be preserved while tournaments are ignored and forgotten all the time, and don't reflect a good portion of the userbase. They can take an L and run an annoying metagame every once in a while, it'll be fine.
 
depressi0n cherry said:
yeah I’m pretty fuckin tired of council ignoring public sentiment to do whatever they want and justifying it based on tournaments that no one else cares about
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great fucking album

but also this is just how it always has been lol

also, can people STOP with unironically using fucking “volc was central to the metagame in checking shit” please

like i thought we established this on smogon like a decade ago that broken-checking-broken is invalid. even if u don’t think volc is broken (lol), u should have better sense than to resort to this

mainly looking @ u CTC Vert
 
Vert said:
the fact volcarona was key word "quickbanned" is hilarious, let alone the idea there was even a vote to begin with. it's barely been 48 hours since the chien-pao and zamazenta-crowned ban was implemented on the ladder, and somehow the council already came to this asinine conclusion

quickbans historically are meant for shit that is egregious like regieleki, marshadow, and naganadel, not no fuckin' volcarona when solid ban and do not ban arguments can be made for it. volcarona is very easy to say is broken when you tell me it's running flamethrower, bug buzz, quiver dance, morning sun, tera blast-water, giga drain, fiery dance, tera blast-ground, substitute, tera blast-fairy, psychic, and tera blast-ghost all on the same set. another fact that is being ignored is its unpredictability has been confined with heatran's release. most variants are tera blast-water or -ground nowadays. out of all the times you could possibly act on this 'mon, it's now? not pre-home? let's also disregard how volcarona's defensive profile is necessary for the tier's stability. totally "quickban" worthy my guy... don't even suspect test it. the community really does matter! iron valiant can do the exact same shit, and i'd argue it's even more dangerous with its ability to go either physical, special, or mixed. this 'mon is probably stupid now by the way, considering you unnecessarily deleted its best check.

urshifu-rs is cheap and i don't mind it being gone, but even this shouldn't have gotten quickban'd when solid ban and do not ban arguments can be made for it too. urshifu-rs also only got a 3.0 rating on the recent survey; on the other hand, garganacl received scores of 3.44 & 3.29 in the past and it wasn't even suspect tested because "[garganacl's support] still trails well behind suspects and bans from prior points this generation or of a similar time last generation."

?!

so apparently we're gon' quickban shit that received a 3.0 now? what's the point of even having these surveys then? you really can't give urshifu-rs a week, then a community vote when you couldn't even touch shed tail for 6 fuckin' months? you want urshifu-rs gone for world cup's "competitive integrity" or whatever despite us having that dumbass ostrich legal for 3 weeks in SPL? it's walking wake all over again, except this time they actually went through with the quickban. don't even get me started on the fact zamazenta, the 3.7 rated 'mon, survived the vote. i don't think this 'mon is broken, but even i know quickbanning urshifu-rs and volcarona before this is outright blasphemy and confirms most of this council does not play. if volcarona and urshifu-rs get banned via community vote, then so be it. i won't complain. a quickban however is just unfair.

i am requesting senior staff to reverse these bans, put up formal community suspect tests for volcarona and urshifu-rs, then give us an updated council where every member actually plays the CG at a high-level both tournament & ladder-wise (2000's+). even though i heavily disagree with my brother njnp's vote, i believe adding him along with more minimalistic minds such as ima would be a good start. consider adding storm zone for ladder representation too. i would also like to request a new tier leader next gen. presidents can't run more than 2 terms and neither should Finchinator, respectfully. i hold this man in high regard as he is a world cup champion and 2-time former circuit champion, but the reality is his name is attached to the unplayable hell hole that is SS (statistics) and whatever the fuck SV is going to be at this point. while yes he is very in-touch with the community, if the decisions being made are not based off aforementioned survey results then it doesn't matter how transparent you are. it's pointless. bro even went on my wall a couple weeks ago and argued with the raw data i presented in the link above. numbers don't lie, unless you're Finchinator kek. unironically ABR sitting on his ass and not doing shit as SM OUTL gave us an exponentially better tier with a much higher playerbase than whatever the hell i've been playing the past 3-4 years on this dystopian ass website. sure was fun to play that boring ass heavy-duty boots / static / flame body fuckfest last gen and that cancerous shed tail metagame this gen!

SV OU has lost all of its credibility with these results; put up a new survey asking whether the community agrees with the volcarona quickban or not. i guarantee you the answer will be "NO." and it will win by an overwhelming majority. i fuckin' dare you. well, it's not like these surveys hold any weight to begin with now that you quickban'd volcarona. honestly y'all should just quickban tera while you're at it because it has become clear the council is allowed to do whatever the hell they want.

clown shit man
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while I agree with the overall ideas of your posts,

I think Finchinator is doing a great job, with the transparency, communication, memes, etc.

It’s not easy to be the face of the decisions.

And the man can’t control the dynamics and mechanics of the game.

GF gave us Tera, basically fun, useful and unpredictable bundled together. So people are picking sides on this, as opposed to dynamax which was much easier for the community to collectively dislike.
 
lydian said:
that would be 100% fine with me personally though, i'm not asking for a suspect test for volcarona to be freed, im asking for a suspect test for the community to be able to decide what they think of it, and i'm sure most people asking for a suspect feel the same
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Oh yeah, I think suspect tests are cool, even if it just reinforces a decision made before. I just think it'd be funny and my number one priority is the bit. Would probably also reinforce the fact the anger is the lack of agency the community feels like it has though, in less humorous terms
 
ant4456 said:
it looks like my last ironic version of this wasnt enough so:

For all of you, ALL of you using real ass politics ass words to discuss Pokemans, go outside

Go outside

There is no "democracy" and "republic" and "anarchy" and etc. etc. with fucking Smogon . com. This is literally about if one .gif and set of data points is allowed in the browser videogame or not.

These are terms that are used to describe people's every day systems that genuinely impact and shape their life, things that people in real life have to fight to keep, and you are talking about the integrity of it on Pokemonshowdown.com.
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i was kidding lmao, here's the copypasta

so just fuck democracy right?
This is just ridiculous, why does the council get off so much by banning half of the new pokemon without even consulting the player base? Fucking Espathra doesn't even get a suspect test? Has it not occurred to anyone else that there's a little thing called DARK TYPES?! You can even change your damn type to Dark if you need to. But then when anyone brings up garganacl mfers are like "nah its totally fine you just have to run a specific item on this specific pokemon". But it doesn't even get suspected.
The quick bans are getting excessive. Flutter mane and palafin and iron bundle I understand, houndstone I disagree but whatever, but stuff like annihilape and cyclizar should've been suspected at the very least.
Lastly, tournament play shouldn't be a decider in whether something is tested, let alone quick banned. Only stall loving try-hards care about tournaments over anything else.
 
Charles Darwin said:
i was kidding lmao, here's the copypasta

so just fuck democracy right?
This is just ridiculous, why does the council get off so much by banning half of the new pokemon without even consulting the player base? Fucking Espathra doesn't even get a suspect test? Has it not occurred to anyone else that there's a little thing called DARK TYPES?! You can even change your damn type to Dark if you need to. But then when anyone brings up garganacl mfers are like "nah its totally fine you just have to run a specific item on this specific pokemon". But it doesn't even get suspected.
The quick bans are getting excessive. Flutter mane and palafin and iron bundle I understand, houndstone I disagree but whatever, but stuff like annihilape and cyclizar should've been suspected at the very least.
Lastly, tournament play shouldn't be a decider in whether something is tested, let alone quick banned. Only stall loving try-hards care about tournaments over anything else.
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ah ok my b I'll delete LOL
I'm an uncultured swine
 
So are we gonna kill Garg then too? Because that was scoring higher on surveys for suspects than Volc ever did.

I would hope the council goes the ubers route and immediately suspects Volcorona from ubers, so that way it's out of tournament play for whatever big thing is going on and forcing this bizarre choice but the playerbase still actually gets a say in a mon that was not a new drop and really shouldn't have been on the QB slate before if it hadn't ever been suspected.
 
CTC said:
Like Vert mentioned, we have suffered through a boring generation of SS and a near unplayable shed tail meta which included espathra for 3 months, we see the capabilities lacking, and as a community we must speak up. Players and community members such as myself, Blunder, and Pokeaim would love to offer our insight to the council, because not only do we play competitively and are involved in the peak ladder ecosystem, we also have our ear to the streets via feedback from videos and posts on their respective walls.
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Because having a YT channel give you a opinion a plus over the rest LMAO
You are a amazing player outside of that but telling about Pokeaim when he was the reason shit like Ambipom was on higher tier isnt a good argument on insight in the tier
 
Just implement Tera Preview

Tera, the feature of gen 9 stays ✔
Gen doesn't become as boring as the dreaded gen 8 ✔
Tera becomes important, but not 100% random ✔
Volc can be easily seen as tera ground/water/fairy from preview ✔
Volc can return and potentially others (Not Chien-Pao tho please) ✔

The view is clear, it is all set, let the tera preview testing begin
 
Ast0rga said:
Just implement Tera Preview

Tera, the feature of gen 9 stays ✔
Gen doesn't become as boring as the dreaded gen 8 ✔
Tera becomes important, but not 100% random ✔
Volc can be easily seen as tera ground/water/fairy from preview ✔
Volc can return and potentially others (Not Chien-Pao tho please) ✔

The view is clear, it is all set, let the tera preview testing begin
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I totally agree with this, it's a banger idea!
 
Ast0rga said:
Just implement Tera Preview

Tera, the feature of gen 9 stays ✔
Gen doesn't become as boring as the dreaded gen 8 ✔
Tera becomes important, but not 100% random ✔
Volc can be easily seen as tera ground/water/fairy from preview ✔
Volc can return and potentially others (Not Chien-Pao tho please) ✔

The view is clear, it is all set, let the tera preview testing begin
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no, tera preview does nothing to solve the issues of building for a meta with each pokémon having the means to flip the matchups of its nominal checks, thus leaving us in a state of volatility with regards to matchups. it doesn’t address the issue of in-battle near guesses, which also adds to said volatility. it also fails to address the overhwhelming power afforded to pokémon via terastallisation.

it is a flimsy bandaid on an open fracture
 
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