Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v2 [Update on Post #5186]

[Mega Breloom]

if yall want a meta where volc and shifu aint banned natdex is here for yall, play it so yall cannot whine here anymore

Even if some cool mons and mega are there, is not worth because scald and toxic also exist there.

 

[hidin]

the scald hate is a shallow argument wouldnt you like shifus and chien paos being burnt

 

[Floatstonemafia]

the real question is 'is it too early to start petitioning for a tera-less OU ladder'.

 

[Magcargo]

the scald hate is a shallow argument wouldnt you like shifus and chien paos being burnt

As a Chien-Pao Enjoyer, nope. Setting up SD on that evil Pokemon T*xapex is the greatest feeling ever.

Edit: come to think of it, the recovery nerf might not be that bad because Scald and Toxic have more limited distribution now.

 

[Sheerluck Holmes]

My english isn't good so maybe that is the case. I simply suggested to MAYBE take the community less seriously. Nobody really cares about reading all yours "we sacrifice our time to follow the community/you should thank us for the time we invest" . If u think u are sacrificing your time rather than have fun maybe u all should take a break from pokemon.

That is not being disrespectuful, is a serious suggestion because mental health is important. The community to me does not seem happy at all and reading your tweets, u aren't happy about us because anything we write, u take it as criticism.

Suspect chien, ban it, unban it without waiting a little and quickban it again for me was the first thing that made no sense and was the point where u lost a good part of trust from us. Same for tera, how much people suggested to look it into again, both with surveys and in this thread?

that's why this thread turned into a policy review

Ah yes Schrodinger's Council. If they react fast they're "Tyrants and not Listening". If they don't they're "Too slow and not listening".

P.S. Death threats over a fucking digital Pokémon ban? Genuinely how much of a basement-dwelling troglodyte do you have to be? Decision's been made, shut up and bury yourself in grass.

 

[Athyestic]

the scald hate is a shallow argument wouldnt you like shifus and chien paos being burnt

(NDM clears btw that tier is fucking goated)

Burning a Chien-Pao feels good but getting anything else burnt feels bad, so, like, not worth IMO

 

[Zetalz]

I've seen a few posts about a seperate No Tera ladder in the last few pages, and I'd like to offer just a touch of insight on why that is a terrible idea. This approach was tried at least a couple times in the past and both occasions that I'm familiar with; that being OU (no megas) and UU (no scald) from gen 6, were absolute nothingburgers. Activity and interest in them was very low, which lead to very little actually relevant data being collected with which to judge a potential meta without those elements. If you make a seperate ladder with a major mechanic or facet of the meta missing you have to offer an incentive for good players to actually invest into it vs. the standard meta, which these sorts of things don't really do. Unless you run several tours, or 1 major tour (which absolutely no one will want to do lmao), there just is no reasons for regulars of the tier to participate in the experiment. You can argue that it's different for Tera (or Dmax, lol) given their wider implications, but the fundamental problems remain without significant investment from a large portion of the community.

 

[G-Luke]

Even if some cool mons and mega are there, is not worth because scald and toxic also exist there.

If Scald had the same distribution it did now we probably would have not banned Ursh, no cap.

Scald and Toxic hate is somehow worse than Tera Terrorists hyping up that godforsaken mechanic I swear to god.

Edit: A Tera Terrorist found me

 

[Executive Exeggcute]

I've seen a few posts about a seperate No Tera ladder in the last few pages, and I'd like to offer just a touch of insight on why that is a terrible idea. This approach was tried at least a couple times in the past and both occasions that I'm familiar with; that being OU (no megas) and UU (no scald) from gen 6, were absolute nothingburgers. Activity and interest in them was very low, which lead to very little actually relevant data being collected with which to judge a potential meta without those elements.

I'd like to add that separating the playerbase because of a mechanic further divides the main issue of keeping tera or not. It also loses the value of the Ou tier and other tiers as well.

 

[SwaggySammy44]

Tera seems like the most controversial issue in this generation, but I think the defining feature of Gen 9 OU , for better or for worse, is something much different. So let's give the council a break, and shit on gamefreak instead.

Dude, Where's My Hazard Control?
​

How did this happen? It's honestly baffling how badly gamefreak fucked this up. The decision to reduce the distribution of certain moves did have some positives, such as reducing knock off spam and scald hax, but also resulted in shit like this:

The loss of defog from many mons that used it as an essential peace of their kit, is insane to me. Why does Zapdos, the original Big Bird, not get defog? Or Torn-t? Why is it that 4 of the 5 ou defoggers new pokemon, several of which are likely to drop in the next tier shift? Gamfreak's "creative decision" has left the tier with the lowest amount of viable defoggers since hazards were introduced. The rapid spinners aren't much better. So, considering that gamefreak reduced the number of hazard removers, they also reduced the number of hazard setters, right? Lol, nope!

This, to me, is a clear cut example of horrible balancing. Not only do all the old hazard setters retain their moves, but we also have:

plenty of new, viable setters

damaging moves that set hazards

abilities that set hazards

and this fucker, whose ability and typing nopes most of the removers in the tier

I find the reduction of hazard removal and the simultaneous proliferation of hazard setting very unhealthy for the meta, as it restricts team building and basically forces you to run 1 of 3 hazard removers, those being:

the best one, which can also set rocks and tell gholdengo to fuck off. There isn't really any reason to run anything else instead of it, but where's the fun in that?

corviknight is a very unique mon in this meta, because it can actually learn defog. It's also a good defensive pivot, but it's a bit too passive, and can't do shit to gholdengo.

court change has the unique advantage of bypassing good as gold, but it's only really useful when there are more hazards on your side than your opponent's.

There's a couple other removers with decent niches ( sets sun, faster and has volt switch) but in most situations they are outclassed by the big 3, and this limitation of options makes building a lot less fun. Unfortunately, there isn't a clear solution. This is a deeply entrenched flaw in gamefreak's design philosophy that can't be fixed with some simple tiering action. It really sucks that this design flaw has come to define the meta.

tl;dr suspect test stealth rock, you cowards!

 

[hidin]

Tera seems like the most controversial issue in this generation, but I think the defining feature of Gen 9 OU , for better or for worse, is something much different. So let's give the council a break, and shit on gamefreak instead.

Dude, Where's My Hazard Control?
​

How did this happen? It's honestly baffling how badly gamefreak fucked this up. The decision to reduce the distribution of certain moves did have some positives, such as reducing knock off spam and scald hax, but also resulted in shit like this:View attachment 525600
The loss of defog from many mons that used it as an essential peace of their kit, is insane to me. Why does Zapdos, the original Big Bird, not get defog? Or Torn-t? Why is it that 4 of the 5 ou defoggers new pokemon, several of which are likely to drop in the next tier shift? Gamfreak's "creative decision" has left the tier with the lowest amount of viable defoggers since hazards were introduced. The rapid spinners aren't much better. So, considering that gamefreak reduced the number of hazard removers, they also reduced the number of hazard setters, right? Lol, nope!View attachment 525601
This, to me, is a clear cut example of horrible balancing. Not only do all the old hazard setters retain their moves, but we also have:

plenty of new, viable setters

damaging moves that set hazards

abilities that set hazards

and this fucker, whose ability and typing nopes most of the removers in the tier

I find the reduction of hazard removal and the simultaneous proliferation of hazard setting very unhealthy for the meta, as it restricts team building and basically forces you to run 1 of 3 hazard removers, those being:

the best one, which can also set rocks and tell gholdengo to fuck off. There isn't really any reason to run anything else instead of it, but where's the fun in that?

corviknight is a very unique mon in this meta, because it can actually learn defog. It's also a good defensive pivot, but it's a bit too passive, and can't do shit to gholdengo.

court change has the unique advantage of bypassing good as gold, but it's only really useful when there are more hazards on your side than your opponent's.

There's a couple other removers with decent niches ( sets sun, faster and has volt switch) but in most situations they are outclassed by the big 3, and this limitation of options makes building a lot less fun. Unfortunately, there isn't a clear solution. This is a deeply entrenched flaw in gamefreak's design philosophy that can't be fixed with some simple tiering action. It really sucks that this design flaw has come to define the meta.

tl;dr suspect test stealth rock, you cowards!

just saying hoss…

 

[Sheerluck Holmes]

If Scald had the same distribution it did now we probably would have not banned Ursh, no cap.

Scald and Toxic hate is somehow worse than Tera Terrorists hyping up that godforsaken mechanic I swear to god.

Edit: A Tera Terrorist found me

Scald and widespread Toxic can rot in hell for all I care. Scald is a stupid move by design (Unless you're Volcanion) and Toxic on everything is boring as hell. Got a spare moveslot? Toxic. Need help breaking down a big wall on a choice set? Toxic. It's good that GF made it so the actually Toxic Pokémon get Toxic.

 

[G-Luke]

So, in the wake of the Volcarona and Urshifu ban, what are the Pokémon you think gained the most from their departure?

Here is a GOAT of mine that got alot of wins from this ban.

Heatran @ Leftovers
EVs: 252 HP / 232 Def / 24 Spe
Tera Type: Grass / Ghost
Ability: Flash Fire / Flame Body
Bold Nature
- Will o Wisp
- Lava Plume
- Earth Power
- Stealth Rock / Protect

I like physically defensive Heatran, especially when I Tera Ghost when Great Tusk tries to get off a Rapid Spin while I burn it. It's pretty fun to use with how useful burns are in the metagame.

 

[Crimson Chris]

Edit: A Tera Terrorist found me

Don't you mean....a Terarist?

 

[Bakugames]

tbh the reason for hazards being buffed is probably bc they want them to find some use in bss and vgc and r throwing things at the wall to see if any stick, with not great results (youd have to incentivise switchint before making hazards viable) imo. 6v6 singles just gets the worse of it because its a format that actually has massive changes depending on hazard viability

im a hazard centrist in that I kinda just go with whatever the gen has to offer. easy hazard stack? oh well. defog spam? alas. it just feels more like a setting than something bannable, but thats ofc just how I feel and not objective. banning spikes would be interesting

 

[Captain Marshadow]

tbh the reason for hazards being buffed is probably bc they want them to find some use in bss and vgc and r throwing things at the wall to see if any stick, with not great results

I wouldn't say the attempts are fruitless. Glimmora has a decently high usage rate in VGC Doubles and it almost exclusively runs Toxic Debris as it's ability. Kleavor is also speculated to be a big threat coming into Regulation D with Stone Axe as it's premier STAB (though the drawback free Bug-Type CC it gets in the form of Sharpness-boosted X-Scissor is also a big factor).
They kinda had to be dragged in kicking and screaming, but Gen 9's the first time they've actually been relevant in pretty much any capacity.

 

[Mega Breloom]

If Scald had the same distribution it did now we probably would have not banned Ursh, no cap.

Scald and Toxic hate is somehow worse than Tera Terrorists hyping up that godforsaken mechanic I swear to god.

Edit: A Tera Terrorist found me

Just add Fini and Bulu back, we need that, not scald.

 

[hunter.]

I feel like the reason the Volcarona ban doesn't sit right with a lot of people including myself was just the process taken to reach that solution. If Volc was tested and then banned, there wouldn't really be as many complaints, but this case is just all sorts of weird and I'll get into that.

We've had Volc since day 1 and the same with Tera, and it feels absolutely wild that a mon that we've had for over half a year is now suddenly Quickbanned. Now this would have been understandable if Home gave it moves that mattered (e.g. Blissey getting Heal Bell) but Volc got literally no changes. It wasn't a pokemon new to the game like the Hisui Mons, it wasn't a pokemon unbanned for Home Drops like Chien-Pao, it was an OU mon that got no changes so it being banned in this way makes it weird pill to swallow.

I guess part of what I want is clarity, is this just a thing now? That mons we've had for that long of a time can just be Quickbanned? I'm pretty sure it started here because we didn't do this for mons like Vish and that was Chi-Yu levels of unanimous hate. I think most people just didn't think it was even possible to happen.

Yeah this was the reason I was a bit miffed. Like, Volcarona is definitely overpowered with Terastallization in the mix, but it didn't waltz into the tier barely two weeks ago like most of the other broken options did. I understand the sentiment but wish/hope that it's at least slated as the next suspect test.

 

[lolgod3]

Tera seems like the most controversial issue in this generation, but I think the defining feature of Gen 9 OU , for better or for worse, is something much different. So let's give the council a break, and shit on gamefreak instead.

Dude, Where's My Hazard Control?
​

How did this happen? It's honestly baffling how badly gamefreak fucked this up. The decision to reduce the distribution of certain moves did have some positives, such as reducing knock off spam and scald hax, but also resulted in shit like this:View attachment 525600
The loss of defog from many mons that used it as an essential peace of their kit, is insane to me. Why does Zapdos, the original Big Bird, not get defog? Or Torn-t? Why is it that 4 of the 5 ou defoggers new pokemon, several of which are likely to drop in the next tier shift? Gamfreak's "creative decision" has left the tier with the lowest amount of viable defoggers since hazards were introduced. The rapid spinners aren't much better. So, considering that gamefreak reduced the number of hazard removers, they also reduced the number of hazard setters, right? Lol, nope!View attachment 525601
This, to me, is a clear cut example of horrible balancing. Not only do all the old hazard setters retain their moves, but we also have:

plenty of new, viable setters

damaging moves that set hazards

abilities that set hazards

and this fucker, whose ability and typing nopes most of the removers in the tier

I find the reduction of hazard removal and the simultaneous proliferation of hazard setting very unhealthy for the meta, as it restricts team building and basically forces you to run 1 of 3 hazard removers, those being:

the best one, which can also set rocks and tell gholdengo to fuck off. There isn't really any reason to run anything else instead of it, but where's the fun in that?

corviknight is a very unique mon in this meta, because it can actually learn defog. It's also a good defensive pivot, but it's a bit too passive, and can't do shit to gholdengo.

court change has the unique advantage of bypassing good as gold, but it's only really useful when there are more hazards on your side than your opponent's.

There's a couple other removers with decent niches ( sets sun, faster and has volt switch) but in most situations they are outclassed by the big 3, and this limitation of options makes building a lot less fun. Unfortunately, there isn't a clear solution. This is a deeply entrenched flaw in gamefreak's design philosophy that can't be fixed with some simple tiering action. It really sucks that this design flaw has come to define the meta.

tl;dr suspect test stealth rock, you cowards!

gens 2-5 had no viable defoggers

 

[DoofV3]

I did it, I managed to read all the new pages since my last post before the Volca/Urshifu ban...!

What is my prize?

>Kingambit usage will rise again.

Pls no

...So should I try to play OU again what mon should I run so I can destroy that horrible horrible shogun Pokemon. it always clapped me back back in Pre-Home OU.

 

[lolgod3]

I did it, I managed to read all the new pages since my last post before the Volca/Urshifu ban...!

What is my prize?



Pls no

...So should I try to play OU again what mon should I run so I can destroy that horrible horrible shogun Pokemon. it always clapped me back back in Pre-Home OU.

great tusk works, and zama-h still is a good check

 

[Ast0rga]

No rona no party

 

[Gleaming Moonlight]

this thread is hilarious, the council should do more quickbans imo. like next week just announce that sentret is banned or whatever just to stir things up.

 

[MegaScizor32]

alright because we're all looping like we're on some bad trip, i'll briefly address the points raised in this post, even though i have done so a million times already in this thread. last time until the policy review thread. btw bad news for those expecting anything else than what has been going on around discussion on tera in the public thread, when it comes, lol.
smogon doesn't balance elements, it bans. there are reasons for this. i neither have the time nor the patience to explain smogon's consistent tiering methodology from first-principles, so i'd suggest you spend a few hours going through the old policy review threads on tiering approaches as to figure out how we got here. also, look at the quagmire that was/is g5 ou, from the policy review threads on the generation, a contemporary meta, and a currently-played generation - people are still unhappy with it to this day, and there have been many post-gen alterations made because of attempts at preservation of elements. another example of an attempt at normalisation was baton pass in g6 ou, which, i'm not sure if you were around for, but it basically caused arrested development of the metagame & allowed for innumerous resurfacings of baton pass still being uncompetitive, until people finally bit the bullet & pulled the weed by the root.

any argument in favour of giving tera any form of special treatment is based solely on completely arbitrary distinctions, when, at the end of the day, it is simply one element as with all others. arguing for balancing tera for the sake of preserving it is unironically identical to arguing to balance any uber pokemon to bring it down, or to the heinous suggestions last generation in complex banning king's rock whilst used on cloyster.

i dismiss out-of-hand any sort of non-binary approach to tiering tera.

Hide

grouping these together because your latter point in the first paragraph bleeds into the second

if your idea of navigating situations in a novel & competitive manner involves what essentially amounts to near-guesswork as to which pokemon the opponent will tera, and when, then i don't know what to say. "hm, should my opponent here tera their fairy skeledirge as i kowtow with my gambit, i am fucked. should they not tera this turn as i iron head, i am also fucked." - double binds such as these are par for the course with tera.

i am hesitant to call every pokemon having the means to circumvent its nominal checks & counters, at any time, "creativity". it takes zero brainpower in the builder to throw on whatever tera you want on any pokemon & call it a day in matchup-fishing. furthermore, more options is not necessarily a good thing, as there is a balance to be struck in metagames between oversaturation of threats (on a collective scale) & overcentralisation (on an individual scale), as both of these undermine a player's capacity to adequately & reasonably prepare for threats in the metagame whilst building, & to discern the correct course of action in-battle - thus leading to games being more determined by matchup, & near-guess turns as outlined above. tera not only oversaturates the meta, it also creates overcentralisation.

"There’s always a chance you can lose uncommon tera type/ set combination but thats not inherently bad" firstly, it's not just "uncommon tera types" - go look at the tera type index in this subforum. granted, that thread is pre-home, but these are all typings that each pokemon viably ran on a multitude of teams. i am losing my mind at the suggestion that games being decided by factors outside of player expression & decision is not "inherently bad". yes. yes it is. that is the very definition of uncompetitive.
there is not much to respond to here, honestly. strange argument that could be applied to any element you wanted - literally everything that is legal (& illegal!!!) could be justified to be ou as "a resource to win". pokemon is a game of imperfect information, risk vs. reward, bluffing, inter-player psychology, planning & execution, adaptation, and the like. tera, in my view, undermines so much of these as to be considered totally banworthy, for reasons that i already outlined in this very post.

glhf

Hide

someone has the chance to do the funniest thing rn

You cannot compare a generational mechanic to a pokemon or even an item, they are entirely different. One affects the whole game while the latter only affect certain matchups. I know there are tiering policies when it comes to smogon but its not always black/white as there can be grey areas.

Even citing the recent actions from the council , we know Smogon is not perfect nor are there policies. But that fact that theres this sentiment, “oh well we have to either ban or take no action on it because thats hows it always been” is not productive to the future of the game.

I hope that when the tera suspect happens, Tera Preview is chosen by the people and implemented. This will set a new precedent for the future and people will stop using the excuse of “well we cant give special treatment because of precedent”.

And whether the mechanic is competitive or not is subjective. I find it competitive because each player has the ability to use tera to their advantage both in the builder and in-game. Playing OU consistently you get a feel of Terastilization and you adapt to it. Playing the meta you get a feel for what works best and prepare using information you know. Tera preview will help the player with valuable information.

Some matchups are better than others but thats always been pokemon. One of the anti-tera arguments is that tera causes matchup fishing. Though many times in a non-tera meta matchups decides the game. Tera just adds more possibilities of what can be done during the game. You can use it offensively or defensively depending on your circumstances. This is why I think tera is skill and thought intensive. More skill is needed all around ( knowing the meta, preparing your own team with tera in mind, playing through adversity once the opponent teras, etc.).

 

[serperiorr]

I would say that it just got better with Urshifu gone since it actually can do a decent job as a physical mons check thanks to the intimidate drop. With Urshifu it was on an awkward spot since it needed a second physical wall as a back up or else Urshifu was going to get a free kill everytime it gets into the field.

i guess.. but so did tusk get better with urshifu gone