I think the actual teambuilding process of Tera is fine, but I also pick the most braindead shit. Either obvious Tera blast coverage like Tera Elec on WW, STAB Tera for that extra oomph, and Tera Steel/Water on fat walls.
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v2 [Update on Post #5186]
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i mean, this sentiment speaks nothing as to whether or not any action at all should be taken on tera. if it is broken, it is broken, & should be treated accordingly. we tier for the sake of competition & balance, not for the sake of aesthetics.
that being said, how would g9 feel or look anything like g8 without tera? severe cuts to move pools which were central tools of many of last generation’s core pokémon’s toolkits (defog, knock off, scald, etc.,), practically killing a lot of the reason to use said pokémon in the first place, the halving of recovery pp, the different dexcut, expanded distribution for moves such as spikes, brand new abilities that function in a way we have never seen, such as good as gold & purifying salt, booster energy+quark/proto, the largest proportion of top-tier pokémon being from a new generation since maybe g4/5. i really do not see this being anything to worry about, should it concern you in the first place.
also lol @ the assertion that g7, a meta with zmoves, terrains, & beast boosters feels or plays anything like g6, or that g5, a meta dominated by very different pokemon, and a WHOLE TEAM PREVIEW is any way similar to g4.
a separate ladder is a suggestion not even worthy of entertainment.
I get that it’s not a perfect comparison, but generally speaking, a generation that starts on the same console as the previous ends up feeling similar enough to the pre-existing one. There’s a reason people have historically called Gens 4 and 5 the prime era of Dragon-Types, for example, or why the removal of Mega Evolutions in the Switch era (Gens 8 and 9) sent such an aftershock to Pokémon that heavily depended on that mechanic.
The difference between Megas and Z-Moves compared to Dynamax and Terastalizing is that with the first two, you could theoretically ban any specific Megas or Z-Moves that became a problem. Even Gigantamax last generation was pretty much just “better Dynamax” to an extent. That’s not really an option with Terastalizing either, at least not currently. The mechanic either needs banned or it doesn’t, and many people would argue in favor of a ban. Other people having that opinion is perfectly fine and I will let them have it. All I’m saying is that I support whichever option gives players the most possible choices on how they would like to play the game their own way.
It's actually laughable to somehow think that ignoring survey results entirely is better than considering the most recent public opinion available. Lack of information on public opinion from the current metagame is reason to NOT take action.
Neither Shifu nor Volc was anywhere near as oppressive as Regieleki, Chien Pao, etc. Ban whatever you want for World Cup, but council exists to make decisions for the entire tier on behalf of the entire playerbase. This is very clearly not what the majority of people wanted, as evidenced by the survey that was ignored -- ignored, except that write-ins for Volc were cited as justification? You can't just pick and choose which parts of a survey you want to care about.
Suspect testing these mons back in later does not fix the problem. Bringing them back would require a higher proportion of votes than keeping them in a suspect test to ban, and the results of a Zama-H suspect are impacted by playing in a meta without Shifu and/or Volc.
This is extremely out of touch, and every reply from a council member laughing about people being upset or getting defensive over being called out for actions that don't reflect what the playerbase wants further solidifies that fact.
I am seated upon the toilet right now and decided now is when I would like to share my piece on the bans and schizposting seen since sunday. Some sentiments I share and whatnot. I wont make it too long since I think we've all read enough college thesis' now about why council is basically a corrupt government or whatever and I want to finish this post before I finish this dump.
I think the bans themselves were fine, I will not be missing either of these mons and I do not mind council taking an aggressive stance and just removing the mons from the tier. That being said, it does feel a bit like a kick in the balls to the community when the survey we were given seems to not have had any effect. The mon with the most support got to stick around (sure suspect soon) and two mons with less support than pre-home garganacl getting quickbanned makes it feel like what the players asked for doesn't really matter. It is less about the choices made, and more about why they were made.
Don't think this requires any insane maldposts about overthrowing the demonic council or anything and I won't ask for the not-happenings such as unbanning the mons. What happened, happened and we just move forward and the discuss the future of the tier. I guess I just wanted to say I hope to see future surveys treated more...respectfully? I dont know how to phrase what I mean but hopefully you all understand.
Also one last thing, I do agree with whoever said that planning tiering decisions kind of around major tours is just not viable. There is a major tour going on like, all the fucking time. But ALSO it is not councils fault home released moments before wcop. Shit happens.
I think the bans themselves were fine, I will not be missing either of these mons and I do not mind council taking an aggressive stance and just removing the mons from the tier. That being said, it does feel a bit like a kick in the balls to the community when the survey we were given seems to not have had any effect. The mon with the most support got to stick around (sure suspect soon) and two mons with less support than pre-home garganacl getting quickbanned makes it feel like what the players asked for doesn't really matter. It is less about the choices made, and more about why they were made.
Don't think this requires any insane maldposts about overthrowing the demonic council or anything and I won't ask for the not-happenings such as unbanning the mons. What happened, happened and we just move forward and the discuss the future of the tier. I guess I just wanted to say I hope to see future surveys treated more...respectfully? I dont know how to phrase what I mean but hopefully you all understand.
Also one last thing, I do agree with whoever said that planning tiering decisions kind of around major tours is just not viable. There is a major tour going on like, all the fucking time. But ALSO it is not councils fault home released moments before wcop. Shit happens.
First off, we have never held a survey result after the next suspect/ban. Things change too much. This has been the case since the first survey ever and it has never once been an issue.
Second off, here the idea of doing more frequent surveys during release periods was floated and that would remedy this problem. I will happily sacrifice a few more hours for the sake of staying as current as possible.
I’ve literally received death threats and repeated harassment. Am I supposed to just ignore this? Perhaps consider the fact that there are actual people doing a volunteer job who are actively asking for feedback — and thanks to the people providing feedback rather than being rude.
Yeah, if there’s anything we really need to focus on no matter what our voting opinions are, it’s preventing behavior like that. The Internet is an absolutely ruthless place at times, and like many other have said before me saying so now, the chaotic pace of these games’ competitive lifespan is not the OU council’s fault or any other council’s fault for that matter. These guys have a really hard job, trying to make the most of volatile situations time and time again so we the public can all have fun.
TLDR, the real thing that needs banned is people being a**holes online.
Yeah I've been noticing that too. Kind of wild given Light Clay was on the radar. Maybe it was a pre-emptive drop? Who knows.
This creates the problem of deciding which tier is "official", especially with tournaments like WCOP upcoming. Whichever tier doesn't have that "official" banner (as in, isn't in tournament play) won't have anywhere near as much high-level development because there's no reason for top players to learn it, making a comparison between the two tiers necessarily unfair because there will be a fundamental asymmetry in how much metagame exploration and innovation has occurred. For comparison, NatDex OU has a fair amount of development, but it's not as much as standard OU, and you can hopefully see that the difference between NatDex and CG is way vaster than the difference between Tera and non-Tera, incentivizing more play for players who prefer its style. As another historical example, look at how little metagame development the Scaldless BW ladders got compared to the main ladders. For an unofficial metagame like LGPE, this asymmetry isn't an issue since there's no official tournaments running it, but it's definitely a problem for Smogon's flagship tier.
The alternative is "create 2 tiers, give them both tournament representation, and have them run concurrently". However, this would create a massive amount of work (you'd need a new council, you'd need TDs to adjust the formats and run the tours, you'd need tournament players to learn a new tier, you'd need to figure out a way to balance their representation...) and require a significant restructuring of tournaments that I don't think anyone wants. It's just not viable.
(This additional bureaucracy is also why I don't think any "ban Tera on individual mons"-esque proposals could work on a practical level, though I also don't like them on their merits either, i.e. I don't think they fix the problematic parts of Tera whatsoever. )
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Sorry for double posting like this, but I figured said post was important enough to warrant that. I feel like Screens teams are heavily contingent on the viability of the Pokémon setting them up. Take BW2 Espeon, for example- it’s considered one of the better Light Clay mons in the generation, but that set doesn’t see much use in high level play these days on account of Espeon’s poor metagame standing. It’s interesting because the Screens setters right now in SV aren’t terrible Pokémon by any means. It may just be a tough spot for the Screens archetype right now, with all this crazy HOME stuff going on and all.
It becomes an issue when action is immediately taken on things that aren't even supported by the playerbase in the survey results that you do have.
Death threats are obviously uncalled for. No one deserves that -- certainly not volunteers.
From an outside perspective, it just feels like feedback is falling on deaf ears when action is taken without regard for it. People are clearly unhappy about this. That's a reason to re-evaluate, not to double down.
Separate ladders historically never pans out well, it’s part of the reason suspects no longer have both a normal and suspect ladder.
The presence of two meta ladders means you split the playerbase. One will inevitably leech off and cause the other to to fade away. The innovation that one ladder would have just isn’t there on the other. It’s what happened for Stealth Rock or weatherless ladders in Gen V. It’s a cool solution that sadly never pans out.
Death threats are wild, I don't think it's fair to make things personal. Behind the avatar are real life people who have emotions and no ones perfect I think we have to try collaboratively as a community to make the meta as competitive as we possibly can and that's the point. REMEMBER GUYS THIS IS POKEMON NOT LIFE OR DEATH. Ultimately Volc has been problematic, I feel like the community (some of them) have a problem on why it wasn't suspect tested vs quick banned because ultimately it's not as broken as other mons previously quickbanned but I know the reasoning is making the WCOP as competitive as possible so actions need to be taken quicker than usual.
Feedback has dictated our entire process all generation and it will continue to. The community has determined SV OU more than any council member has, and it’s not close
We didn’t fit in another survey before the last vote and we probably should’ve fit in another. 100%— we were given this feedback and I agree, we can be better there
I’m not going to use outdated data, so the response should’ve been to create another survey quickly. I’m sorry for this, but saying we ignore the community when it’s played more of a role than ever, when this is the council that has introduced regular surveys to begin with, and so on is just wrong
i’ve only just realised that this has practically become a pseudo-policy review thread, albeit open to everyone.
we fucked up, ppl.
we fucked up, ppl.
How? If anything, the fact that only certain people can even see those is wild. They affect all of us, yet not all of us are able to recognize these changes. The fact that we all can voice our criticisms, and hopefully just those, is rather nice for once.
Possibly the most open forum ive ever heard of, that isnt absolute ball cancer.
policy review is open to everyone to view, though you need either permissions (which you can apply for at any point.) or badges to post there. what you’re thinking of is inside scoop, which is what only badged members can view. you’ve always been “able to voice your criticisms”, just not have a hand in policy that shapes the direction of tiering/the site at large.
the reason it’s bad for a metagame discussion thread to morph into a public PR thread is because, most people aren’t very good at posting & have little comprehension of smogon policy/history, & it is a metagame discussion thread.
I will once again try and provide an out from pointless bickering (first dire claw now this) to try and Discuss The Metagame. Gonna talk about some of our old champions.
More like Iron Variance am I fucking right. This mon had 8 bazillion sets before, and with the new meta that has been cut down to a whopping 1 million. Now it has real 4mss. Dropping fighting moves into heatran is disgusting, not having knock into glowking is also some turbo ass, and up until recently having to deal with Magearna was tuff for it. That all being said I think it can still do what it does best especially soon when mr steel dog is gone and dead. SD booster, choice band, specs, scarf, CM (you need tera steel or smth stupid to beat glowking), mixed with moon cc knock and psyshock, and so on. Its variance is still grand however much more realistically manageable in the builder. Curious to see where we take our enby icon.
Its no rocket science why bro sucks rn. Dogs, Chien, Sneasler I suppose, Lando Intim, Wisp Heatran. I think once Dogs/Chien go it both loses its greatest answers and best competition. Tera fire, flying, fairy, and dark all look great still, same bullshit as always. Maybe even could see tera water going forward to beat lando/tusk/dirge/heatran in one smooth cook. With Lando around, Gambit also has to choose wisely with its ability, but honestly on bulky offences w/leftovers gambit, I think defiant gambit is easily affordable. He will be the goat again, mark my words.
Fucking dogs once again hurting a GOATs viability. That being said, I don't buy super into the "its outclassed by Chien" stuff because I dont think chien replicates what this guy does. Burn immunity is godsend espicially when the tier has so many wisp users (Dragapult, Ace, Rotom, Heatran, Skeledirge, and also fbody volcarona and steam from volcanion). Chien and Bax with choice band do indeed do similar things, and chien does do it better, however, when a chien comes out you don't need to think "what if it subs here then tera fairies on my draco then dd's and kills my entire team right here right now". Mon is great, start using it again please kids.
Hard to justify using over just tera water volcarona. Pre-Home i was convinced this mon did tera-ground better than volcarona, and that volc did more defensive dd stuff better. Rn Volcarona seems to heavily outclass as a sweeper overall, but maybe this guy could pop back in on tspike weak HO's in the future?
Hoping this guy picks up again post bans. Knock and Uturn and spikes + a move that beats through curse/id garg, curse dozo, etc. Such high value. Amazing mon, excited and hopeful for her return into the metagame.
Replying to my own post to say real quick that I think as of recent bans all of these mons are immediately good again. Volcarona was offences best Valiant check, dog and chien gone is great for Gambit and Bax (reguler dog is still there but its a more balanced matchup imo), Meow same thing I think she will do great not fearing flame body contact punishes on her uturns and ZamaH cannot absorb her flower trick as well as Crowned can. Iron Moth can kinda replicate what volcarona did but in a more balanced way (no spdef boosts + rocks weak if u wanna use booster).
Very Cool. Thumbs up emoji.
My english isn't good so maybe that is the case. I simply suggested to MAYBE take the community less seriously. Nobody really cares about reading all yours "we sacrifice our time to follow the community/you should thank us for the time we invest" . If u think u are sacrificing your time rather than have fun maybe u all should take a break from pokemon.
That is not being disrespectuful, is a serious suggestion because mental health is important. The community to me does not seem happy at all and reading your tweets, u aren't happy about us because anything we write, u take it as criticism.
Suspect chien, ban it, unban it without waiting a little and quickban it again for me was the first thing that made no sense and was the point where u lost a good part of trust from us. Same for tera, how much people suggested to look it into again, both with surveys and in this thread?
that's why this thread turned into a policy review
Comrades, onwards to Victory! The Revolution is upon us, the old order is no more! Let us usher in a new era of Posting uninformed opinions!
Surveying players is great. People want that. People don't want to reply to surveys, then for those surveys to not count for anything.
Shifu got "middling support" for a ban -- less than pre-home Garg. Volc wasn't even on the most recent survey. It can't be said that the community played a role in this action.
If you even agree that it was a mistake to have not made another survey before the most recent tiering action, then why not just do that now? Walk it back and ask players for feedback. All that anyone reasonable wants is for their voice to be heard and taken into consideration before tiering actions.
Screens are a meme, only work when either the meta just had a huge change and most of the teams are far from being optimized or there one of several broken mons that can sweep teams alone so with any kind of support they become unstoppable. However, when those conditions doesn't work then the team just loses against any proper team (unless they bring the right combo of mons against the team of course).
I do understand why some people would like to see it banned and why it is associated to unhealthiness but IMO banning it doesn't change anything, for those scenarios I mentioned before players will use another stuff to get easy wins anyway.
The survey got Zamazenta-C and Chien-Pao banned.
I’ve already committed multiple times to creating a survey when the Zamazenta-C test is over. And I have committed to discussing Volcarona’s OU prospects further.
You’re responding this to a post that shows survey results have determined every single pre-HOME tiering decision. We ran into an unprecedented release and we are working to improve how to handle that, but community input has and will continue to play a big role.
The recent bans are definitely a bit controversial, but people need to realize the council is made up of volunteers who have the ability to be hurt, so blatantly harassing council members is not okay. Constructive criticism is fine but what I'm seeing right now is not constructive and definitely not respectful. Do better or touch grass.
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