Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v2 [Update on Post #5186]

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Looking at the Hazards meta. With :great tusk: being the best hazard control mon in the tier it seems like. I wonder who would be the best Hazard setters of the tier going forward.

I assume Tusk is a good Rocks option alongside :garganacl:. I wonder if :kleavor: would be a nice option as well.

For spikes I assume :samurott hisui: and :meowscarada: to be among the best setters?

For Toxic Spikes am I right to assume :glimmora: and :toxapex: take this mantle?

Is there no good web setters? Hidden :spidops: niche tbh tbh

I am just wondering. Trying to learn about how the meta works as I go.
 
I haven't played much gen 9 recently, I just wanted to add, man being responsible for tiering must suck ass

Back in the day, you got the games and the mons and you just ban the mons that are too strong. Maybe there are some odd cases like Baton Pass or having the first non legendaries being too much in gen 4, but overall, you could deal with it eventually

Now? You have generational gimmicks and it's often hard to impossible to say whether the gimmick is at fault or not, with the gimmicks being tested and eventually retested in gen 9, the bans that were done previous to the first test and now could all just be temporary. Home just kinda drops with a shitton of mons that could or could not be an issue, with already banned mons being possibly fine or not. Often no way to find out except for having anarchy for weeks. The mons that dropped now are extra bullshit in this regard, something like Dire Claw could only come from a non-regular Pokemon game. Add this to the ever-increasing complexity of Pokemon and questions whether something like Light Clay is the problem behind some mons being too much and whether something like Light Clay is the issue by itself... And you have a really messy situation, a situation that has to be organized and ordered over the course of years

And that's not the end of it. The DLCs will bring this to us twice more
 
OH MY FUCKING GOD. Bro the DLC is going to make the current back-and fourths in this thread seem like a "minor inconvenience" compared to what the DLC got

And from what was datamined, many people ain't gonna like what they see
Datamined? I doubt that, only because the DLC isn't for a few months at least.
 
OH MY FUCKING GOD. Bro the DLC is going to make the current back-and fourths in this thread seem like a "minor inconvenience" compared to what the DLC got

And from what was datamined, many people ain't gonna like what they see

you can’t say this stuff without a summary of what you’re talking about

what’s gonna be so crazy?
 
I think what they mean by "datamined" is in regards to the scrubbed dex entries. Similar to last gen and the DLC, many dex entries were scrubbed and if it's like SWSH, then these could very well be the returning mons for the DLC. Not gonna say which mons considering that I dunno if that's exactly allowed. And of course, not confirmed.
 
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It's been a day and I'm liking the bans so far and I'd like to share my thoughts. Wall of text ahead.

I feel like the tipping point for Shifu was Punching Globe, it amped and made Surging-strikes very spammable.
Banded Tera or SD surging-strikes on a 130 base attack mon 1HKO stuff though resist. Globe further grants power, even it's only a 10%, it's still massive for such high damage output plus avoiding contact. In gen 8 offensive Shifu had to chose between band or safety from contact chip, now with Punching globe and Tera it gets both.
Shifu's 97 base speed sits in a comfortable speed tier, it's faster than a lot of meta key Pokemon like Tusk, Dengo, Rotom, Lando, Glimmora and H-Samutt forcing out switch ins. That's huge for a Pokemon that's fat, hard hitting and is even more busted in rain.
This Pokemon gained too many tools this gen and now is closer to his busted brother. Definitely too much for OU.

Volc is cheap, specially the fat phys def set. Facing this mon always made me feel like walking on thin ice because it could come back at any point and reverse sweep. Every team I used needed a double check for Volc's possible teras, because they counter it's hardest counters.
Tera Grass beats Garg, Dozo, Ting Lu, Azumarill.
Tera Ground beats or overwhelms Dirge, Heatran, G-king, Pex.
These two teras are big considering Volc can neuter physical attackers with wisp or flame body, while quiver dance can fully wall special attackers and also there's no use for hazards since Volc always runs boots and now is harder to remove Heavy Duty Boots with lower knock off distribution. Most priority fail to revenge kill, even tera water Azu aqua jet fails to OHKO HP Volc from full.

When it comes to checking stuff I don't see much loss from Shifu. Water and fighting types were already prevalent because of Gambit and Tusk, however Volc's Fire/Bug combo is unique, the closest thing to replace it is probably fire/flying (x4 weak to rock, x2 weak to water, resist grass, steel, fairy, fighting, u-turn x4, they differ on electric, flying and ground interactions though) however Moltres doesn't have the versatility to replace Volc's offensive niche.

Now that being said, I read somewhere in the thread we were allowed to vent our frustrations here. So I kinda want to hit on both sides.

First, I don't think the player base is entirely reliable at pointing which Pokemon are busted or not, at some point Espathra fell to UU, Baxcalibur fell to UU, Shed Tail Orthworm was UU, Dondozo didn't have much use during Palafin's reign of terror, Annihilape and Chi-Yu stayed in the dark way longer than they should have, Banded Pao didn't have much use until very very late pre-home. so It can take quite a long time for the player base to pick up how busted some Pokemon can be. Even water shifu as busted it is now, it didn't have much uproar from the player base until the ban.
People don't realize (or don't want to admit) how busted is Volcarona, it wins almost every neutral match, it can win against several physical attackers just by making contact, it can win against many special attackers after only one Quiver Dance. Volcarona covers so many bases: physical mons, special mons, doesn't care about hazards with low Knock distribution, it can overwhelm just by spamming Fiery Dance getting free +1 SpA, it has high min-maxed base stats of 100 Speed 105 SpDef 135 SpA. It has speed, it has bulk, it has offense, it has status, it has a single offensive and defensive set-up move and immense coverage, then you add Tera and you have a near perfect Pokemon. So I really find hard to disagree with the ban and I find ever harder to make arguments as to why Volcarona is a balanced Pokemon.

Regarding council. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong or if you disagree.
I don't think council have done a good job with gen 9 since the start. IMO the first big mistake was the Tera suspect. It's shouldn't have been a super-majority vote. It should have been a simple-majority Tera-on-team-preview suspect at first, and from there evaluate a proper Tera ban suspect. I say this because before gen 9 there was already a lot of discomfort with the state of gen 8 OU, ending in a boring a overly defensive regenerator spam meta, the "ban tera" premise scared people and made them go into gen 9 in a full pro-offensive pro-tera pro-fun anti-ban mindset, resulting in the whole suspect in no action.
The second mistake was letting Zamazenta-Crown, Hero, Magearna and Pao into OU, these Pokemon are beyond busted on their own right. They were released on the premise of power creep, but the problem is these pokemon as well gained the all these new tools. +1 STAB defensive Body Press Zamazenta is no joke, it's extreme fast in a slower smaller meta and can make unbreakable subs while avoiding passive play. Magearna is not a balanced Pokemon and will never be a balanced Pokemon, Magearna and the word balanced are mutually exclusive. For Pao not even fully physdef Dondozo (the strongest OU viable physical wall) can't switch on 2 Tera banded Crunch. These Pokemon are mistakes and should never leave ubers again, and them getting no-ban on the radar vote was illogical.
As much as I support these two new quick bans, they contradict the idea of using surveys as feedback, it makes players surveys feel useless, and they felt rushed and pressured from the previous radar outcome.
IMO Zama-hero needs to be quick banned, like right now (based on survey), and then there should be a simple 51% majority tera on team-preview suspect, that would at least alleviate all the Tera debate going on right now. That's my opinion.
 
I don't think council have done a good job with gen 9 since the start. IMO the first big mistake was the Tera suspect. It's shouldn't have been a super-majority vote.
Every OU suspect in recent history has been 60% and this threshold is not exactly up for debate (or entirely up to the council). Generally you need greater than a simple majority to flip a status quo.
IMO Zama-hero needs to be quick banned, like right now (based on survey), and then there should be a simple 51% majority tera on team-preview suspect, that would at least alleviate all the Tera debate going on right now. That's my opinion.
We have no intention of having any quickbans at the moment, and suggesting we should do more after yesterday seems rather tone deaf. You are entitled to agree or disagree with any decision, but read the room. A Zama-H suspect will be up tonight.
 
I assume Tusk is a good Rocks option alongside :garganacl:. I wonder if :kleavor: would be a nice option as well.

Rocks Garganacl IS a set but is one of many sets for them, and I personally prefer not running rocks on Garg. Other mons that actually fit rocks in their toolkit better include Clodsire, Heatran, Ting-Lu, & Garchomp.

Is there no good web setters? Hidden :spidops: niche tbh tbh
Honestly, Masquerain has done Sticky Webs very well for me, especially considering it can blow up Great Tusk (See: Best Hazard Control Mon) with Hydro Pump/Hurricane. It also has the ability to do other shenanigans with Stun Spore, but I stick to StickyWeb/QD/Hydro/Cane. Give it a try sometime.
 
Every OU suspect in recent history has been 60% and this threshold is not exactly up for debate (or entirely up to the council). Generally you need greater than a simple majority to flip a status quo.

We have no intention of having any quickbans at the moment, and suggesting we should do more after yesterday seems rather tone deaf. You are entitled to agree or disagree with any decision, but read the room. A Zama-H suspect will be up tonight.
With all due respect, Finch, you’re the one who seems to be coming off tone deaf about this. The complaints all throughout yesterday weren’t that people didn’t want more quickbans. It’s that you quickbanned two Pokemon that did not have community support. By comparison, Zamazenta was the highest community rated mon and *wasn’t* quickbanned. People WANTED Zama quickbanned. What they *didn’t* want was Volc and Shifu quickbanned. This suspect is what comes off as tone deaf.
 
Could be wrong but zama hasn't felt as nasty in the past couple days now that there's breathing room in teambuilder from chien, zama-c and urshifu being gone (I support the urshifu ban btw). I guess that's the point of the suspect, so that we know for sure.

I know the council has a bit on their plate but would anyone be interested in a separate ladder trial, basically a clone of OU but without tera? None of us know what it would look like, even if it only ran for a few weeks I just think it'd be interesting to see, and a separate ladder would mean there's no more chaotic interruptions on the main OU ladder. Doesn't have to be a suspect or anything, I think some experience would really help everyone figure out which is better. Any opinions about whether tera is at fault could be PROVEN.

Its just getting a bit tired the whole discussion "x is only broken from tera" well in reality we have no idea
 
With all due respect, Finch, you’re the one who seems to be coming off tone deaf about this. The complaints all throughout yesterday weren’t that people didn’t want more quickbans. It’s that you quickbanned two Pokemon that did not have community support. By comparison, Zamazenta was the highest community rated mon and *wasn’t* quickbanned. People WANTED Zama quickbanned. What they *didn’t* want was Volc and Shifu quickbanned. This suspect is what comes off as tone deaf.
This is a ridiculous sentiment.

People just spent pages asking for us to go to suspects. People just spent pages asking for us to honor past survey results. Quickbanning something else a day later makes no sense at all, especially when it did not have support for a quickban from the community or council.

We went to a suspect on Zama-C, which fell squarely in suspect range in the last survey. I do not like using this survey since it was dated, but if you want to play this card, then the suspect is quite literally what people want.

People will find a way to complain about anything and everything. This is getting silly. There is nothing procedurally questionable about this suspect.
 
Instead of writing a one-liner joke that got automatically deleted (I think? still trying to figure out how this site works lol) (it wasn't even that funny anyways) I'll share some thoughts:

The double standard given to the council over the last day is insane. People were screaming about the council being too passive by testing Magearna and Regieleki in OU, so they become more aggressive in their tiering and now they're receiving literal death threats because they banned a pokémon that's been controversial since Black and White. You're never going to satisfy everyone, but it seems no one is satisfied.

The council did a blind vote. 7 of the 9 thought Volc was too strong for the tier. Only 5 thought Zama was too strong. Ultimately, now Zama is getting suspect tested, and now it's likely to get banned. If it was the other way around... we'd be suspecting Volc right now... and it'd be likely to get banned. Either way, in 2 weeks, both Zama and Volc are banned.

Surveys aren't final. This is not a democracy. It never has been, and it's silly to assume that this shitshow will make it more a democracy. If I'm Finch, I share my thoughts less, since people yell at me anyways. Luckily for y'all I'm just a rando who's not even that good at the game.

If you want Zama banned so bad get reqs and do it yourself

Also please for the love of Arceus shut up about Tera, I don't particularly like it but that Mudsdale is 6 feet under at this point. We've gotten our answer and constant bitching isn't gonna change anything
 
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