Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v2 [Update on Post #5186]

[Carl The Turtle]

It genuinely feels as though the community is breathing down the council's neck for one tiering policy that they deem unsatisfactory when every other action done by the council this gen has been incredibly quick given extenuating circumstances and limited timeframe and on point at that time in the metagame, but because they made one tiering decision that the playerbase happens to be 50/50 on they're now complete shutouts who ignore the community they moderate and should be removed from council/TL and the entire process should be re-examined.
like i don't entirely agree with the volc and shifu bans but leeway is a thing you know

 

[Cheese W1zard]

This is a ridiculous sentiment.

People just spent pages asking for us to go to suspects. People just spent pages asking for us to honor past survey results. Quickbanning something else a day later makes no sense at all, especially when it did not have support for a quickban from the community or council.

We went to a suspect on Zama-C, which fell squarely in suspect range in the last survey. I do not like using this survey since it was dated, but if you want to play this card, then the suspect is quite literally what people want.

People will find a way to complain about anything and everything. This is getting silly. There is nothing procedurally questionable about this suspect.

Should’ve finished my comment, my bad, but it’s not JUST that people want suspects, it’s that people want suspects on two *specific* Pokemon who were not given the opportunity. And for council to, for once, actually say that you may have made a mistake. Council simply admitting maybe they were rash and made a bad decision instead of doubling down would go a LONG way to easing people who are upset.

 

[Finchinator]

And for council to, for once, actually say that you may have made a mistake. Council simply admitting maybe they were rash and made a bad decision instead of doubling down would go a LONG way to easing people who are upset.

I said over a half dozen times in this thread today that I wish we did another community survey prior to the last vote, which would've helped both the community and the council with that decision. I even made a Policy Review thread the same time the ban went up for feedback to improve the process.

Read my prior posts before you just make up narratives about doubling down. You can be critical of decisions without spreading misinformation. You have every right to question things!!! I am all for that. But let's pay attention to things said before making accusations.

 

[Cheese W1zard]

I said over a half dozen times in this thread today that I wish we did another community survey prior to the last vote, which would've helped both the community and the council with that decision. I even made a Policy Review thread the same time the ban went up for feedback to improve the process.

Read my prior posts before you just make up narratives about doubling down. You can be critical of decisions without spreading misinformation. You have every right to question things!!! I am all for that. But let's pay attention to things said before making accusations.

Kindly quote the post where you openly said the council was wrong how they handled the bans.

 

[Finchinator]

Kindly quote the post where you openly said the council was wrong how they handled the bans.

ok

I am happy to admit when we can improve our process, and this is one of those times!

I mean I said I wish we did another survey

Second off, here the idea of doing more frequent surveys during release periods was floated and that would remedy this problem.

If a weekly brief survey during release stretches or a running, perpetual survey during these periods is what the community needs, I can make it happen.

I have said a half dozen times I intend to change policy pertaining to this moving forward.

i do not know what more you can possibly want from me LMAO

 

[Finchinator]

Like seriously I have spent such a ridiculous chunk of my day repeating myself because people are accusing me of corrupting, selfishness, greed, doubling down, etc. and every single time they have been disproven. What do you even want from me

You want to disagree with the decision and/or process? 100% understand, be my guest. I get it and we have already taken steps to implement for next time.

You want to be rude or spread misinformation? Do so elsewhere. I work my ass off (for this community!!!) and do not tolerate slander.

 

[turd2]

I truly do not understand the Volcarona quick ban. He was not even considered for a quick ban pre-home... post-home, he received new checks and counters that are dominating the meta (Glowking, Heatran, Torn-T) and yet he gets QUICK BANNED? That's a very questionable decision.

Zamazenta surviving the quick ban just adds fuel to the fire.

Everything else you guys have done seems fine.

 

[Mega Breloom]

My post about Terapagos was a joke, sorry if somebody thought it wa an actual leak or something.

Fair enough. I see a lot of solutions being talked about getting implemented here. For that I’m glad. I apologize if I came off rude that was not my intention. You are volunteering for hard work and I don’t envy you. However, there is no admission of “we made a mistake” there. And your other social medias do admittedly have you suggesting nobody was defending Volcarona until yesterday. Which just isn’t true tbf.

To be fair the only people defending Volc were people who want tera gone, but they would even say that Mirraidon would be ok on OU without tera and baning tera would be the priority so I'm not sure if those count.

 

[Cheese W1zard]

Like seriously I have spent such a ridiculous chunk of my day repeating myself because people are accusing me of corrupting, selfishness, greed, doubling down, etc. and every single time they have been disproven. What do you even want from me

You want to disagree with the decision and/or process? 100% understand, be my guest. I get it and we have already taken steps to implement for next time.

You want to be rude or spread misinformation? Do so elsewhere. I work my ass off (for this community!!!) and do not tolerate slander.

I liked the part where I apologized for my rudeness and then you liked the post and acted like we came to an agreement then you posted it on twitter and started being rude again! Very classy! Keep up the hard work fr tho. I disagree with this decision and think you have a tendency to get over-defensive but for the most part this gen has been very good! Next ban Clodsire. Not because it’s broken but because I need an excuse to stop running it on all my teams!

 

[Rootb]

I truly do not understand the Volcarona quick ban. He was not even considered for a quick ban pre-home... post-home, he received new checks and counters that are dominating the meta (Glowking, Heatran, Torn-T) and yet he gets QUICK BANNED? That's a very questionable decision.

Zamazenta surviving the quick ban just adds fuel to the fire.

Everything else you guys have done seems fine.

If it helps you contextualize it, pretend there was a dedicated Volcarona + Garganacl radar / suspect around the time when Walking Wake mania gripped the tier. The way things are done, the bomb dropped in OU's lap took priority, and afterwards, we were so close to a theoretical Home release that it was decided to not do additional suspects on something likely to be freed as soon as that released.

Now, we're a little bit after, and Volcarona is at least as strong as it was when it was supposed to have been suspected. Without the paper trail to back it up, it looks very out of the blue, but it's really the end result of an escalation that Nintendo tried very hard to interrupt with bonus challenges.

 

[turd2]

If it helps you contextualize it, pretend there was a dedicated Volcarona + Garganacl radar / suspect around the time when Walking Wake mania gripped the tier. The way things are done, the bomb dropped in OU's lap took priority, and afterwards, we were so close to a theoretical Home release that it was decided to not do additional suspects on something likely to be freed as soon as that released.

Now, we're a little bit after, and Volcarona is at least as strong as it was when it was supposed to have been suspected. Without the paper trail to back it up, it looks very out of the blue, but it's really the end result of an escalation that Nintendo tried very hard to interrupt with bonus challenges.

If Volcarona is going to get suspected, then suspect it.

Quick ban though? When he wasn't quick-banned before home... he gained nothing from home and, if anything, only has MORE counters post-home? That's super lame.

 

[Finchinator]

I liked the part where I apologized for my rudeness and then you liked the post and acted like we came to an agreement then you posted it on twitter and started being rude again! Very classy! Keep up the hard work fr tho. I disagree with this decision and think you have a tendency to get over-defensive but for the most part this gen has been very good! Next ban Clodsire. Not because it’s broken but because I need an excuse to stop running it on all my teams!

I’m allowed to use my personal Finchinator Twitter for whatever the hell I want to. It’s not Smogon or an official Pokemon platform. You mentioning it multiple times over and trying to hold it over my head is just weird.

You asked for me to show you where I said we erred, I showed you five separate quotes, and you still had a “however that’s not enough” moment afterwards. There is nothing I can possibly say that can please you at that point, so I’m just going to not waste my time.

If you want to have a productive, good faith conversation, I’ll be more than happy to have one another day. I am sure you have plenty to add, but this wasn’t it

 

[jel]

follow finch for more bangers and make sure to turn on notifications

 

[RoyalDispenser]

If finch (and others) agree that the decision was hasty and is in full support of a suspect later on for volc, then idk why the decision wasn't reverted for the time being and brought up later. You could easily set precedent that 'if we fuck up we'll back pedal', something a certain game company we know doesn't do well.

Zama-H suspect w/e, but fact is if the volc suspect happens and it turns out to be an unban, then the decision was basically void the entire time and we suspected zama without one of its primary checks. IMO I think zama should be banned regardless, but it is a weird order of events we're doing cause what comes after volc? Tera suspect that the result either unbans volc anyway or keeps it banned? People bitching for zama retest when volc is unbanned because more checks? DLC undoing literally everything? etc.

week 1: 0-9
to
week 2: 7-2 sending volc on vacation
to
Zama Test
to
"deciding if volc enjoys the weather there or not"
to
Tera test which if results in ban, volc comes back from vacation whether it likes it or not.

just looks really weird and frankly if I was in finch's position, i would accept if the test was going to happen no matter what for volc then just revert the decision to be at peace with the community and prove everyone wrong. That's mainly what everyone is wanting from finch the whole council, you're admitting what you guys did wrong, cool step 1... and we're stalling step 2 for a month anyways which is a proper test. At this point the QB is pointless cause the test will happen regardless, you only get the precedent that decisions are final even if they're poorly timed and no one knows how to handle it when it does happen, its really fucked up what people are doing to finch and taking 2 steps back would make everyone happy and prove accusations wrong.

Side Note: As much as I'd want volc back, I'm just throwing it out there I'd rather we suspect test tera than volc regardless of volc's result... cause tera is going to be the definitive reason why volc is banned and if tera gets banned, volc drops.. if not, then you can properly test volc in the meta with whatever decision goes through. You genuinely could test both at the same time even.

 

[5camp]

My impression was that quickbans were for when something new was introduced that was immediately obviously problematic, and performing a quickban was a way to save time.

Volcarona was in the tier for over 6 months without any changes to its moves or mechanics. By definition it was not a new introduction. Whether it is too much for the tier is irrelevant right now: Nothing that was in a tier for this long without any changes to it should be subject of a quickban.

That's really all there is to it. I'm kinda shocked that this wasn't already the case. You really should undo the Volcarona quickban and recognise either you made a big mistake, or you completely misread the room on what the community viewed as the purpose of quickbans

 

[Mushfiq]

That's really all there is to it. I'm kinda shocked that this wasn't already the case. You really should undo the Volcarona quickban and recognise either you made a big mistake, or you completely misread the room on what the community viewed as the purpose of quickbans

That's pretty much the demand here. Very well put.

 

[Delibird Heart]

Who up tripling their arrows ?

Decidueye-Hisui @ Leftovers / HDB
Scrappy
252 Hp 252 Def 4 Speed
Impish Nature
Tera Type: Water
Clode combat
Leaf Blade / Leaf storm / Giga drain
Defog
Roost

This is a defogger that fucks up both Great Tusk, Samurott-H, Garganacl and Gholdengo, and thus a very valuable addition to any team lacking hazard control. It boasts very decent defensive stats and has access to roost so it can stick around for hiwever long it needs to to keep those damn hazards pff. I havent tested this yet because balance is dogwater in the current meta but in theory this seems like it matches up well against the current hazaed setters and the string cheese man. I'll keep you updated.

Ps: sorry for shotty formatting im on phone rn and half my screeen is broken

 

[Magcargo]

honestly it feels less impactful than dragapult and kingambit.

this isn’t a cap.

Yeah, this mon feels very weak both when fighting it and when using it. Maybe people haven't discovered the secret sauce that makes it tick, but Body Press sets are HEAVILY scrapped for slots + Tera Reliant and get checks by top tier Pokemon like Gholdengo, Dragapult, Glowking + Lando-T, etc. You want a bunch of Tera types too like Tera Fire for Wisp Pult, Tera Dark for boosted Crunch, Tera Steel for Fairies, etc.

Haven't faced CB sets, but what I've experienced from National Dex, they are heavily prediction reliant due to STAB CC possessing multiple resist from top tier Pokemon like Lando-T, Glowking, Pult, Zapdos, Gholdengo, etc. forcing it to make hard reads to get anything done. Maybe dropping Jolly for Adamant could make its neutral coverage hit targets a bit harder, since that speed tier is indeed really nice already, but you miss out on outspeeding some relevant targets like Meowscarada.

Maybe a Howl all-out-attacker set could be OP? The mon's speed tier is still top notch, so it could be used as a revenge killer to force multiple out, hit w/ a strong CC or Crunch, and maybe rack up good damage while generally being hard to switch into. Meowscarada's Tera Dark Black Glasses Knock Offs were hard to contest before, so maybe this Pokemon could run something similar with Expert Belt and a variety of Tera types. Sounds neat on paper at least.

I think the biggest issue I have with this Pokemon so far is that there is no incentive for me to use it over Tusk, which has better boosting moves, Knock, Rapid Spin, a secondary typing, and Stealth Rock. Sure the speed is nice, as is the Special Bulk, but it lacks that distinguishing trait that lets other fighters like Tusks, Breloom, Sneaseler, Quaquaval, etc. stand out. Currently, if I were to vote ban on this Pokemon, it would be on the basis that it adds little to the tier, though perhaps I'm jumping the gun.

 

[P3DS]

My impression was that quickbans were for when something new was introduced that was immediately obviously problematic, and performing a quickban was a way to save time.

Volcarona was in the tier for over 6 months without any changes to its moves or mechanics. By definition it was not a new introduction. Whether it is too much for the tier is irrelevant right now: Nothing that was in a tier for this long without any changes to it should be subject of a quickban.

That's really all there is to it. I'm kinda shocked that this wasn't already the case. You really should undo the Volcarona quickban and recognise either you made a big mistake, or you completely misread the room on what the community viewed as the purpose of quickbans

Quick bans are a council tool to override lengthy processes to remove unhealthy Mons, and requires quite high % votes from the council (>=2/3). It had enough support to go on the tiering slate, and then enough votes to get the QB. They went though process and volc got banned. So what if 'nothing new' was added to it: the meta has changed, and people felt that it's presence was enough to let it go. And it's not like it's been completely off the radar, as there were complaints about it in the pre home meta, so it's comes as no surprise to see it being booted.

If people are still salty about the volc QB, they can let the council know, and especially during surveys. And then, if there is enough support, they can do a retest. Like with Cinderace and Melmetal back in IoA gen 8 meta. You can still have your QB and suspect, just we get to see a volc less meta. Also, who cares whether it's a new introduction or not. See IoA Cinderace QB.

To be honest, Volcs probably been high on the test list for a while. It's pretty much been one of the most potent setup sweepers for a while. In BW ou, they decided to ban gems over volc, Gen 8 nearly saw it suspected during the IoA, but it was short lived, but remained on people's radar. This gen, it got better at matchup fishing, and we are finally done. It's a very strong Mon, and a real matchup fish, but, finally, it's been shown the door. Again, if there is enough support, or we see tera banned, or we get DLC, expect it back.

 

[5camp]

Quick bans are a council tool to override lengthy processes to remove unhealthy Mons, and requires quite high % votes from the council (>=2/3). It had enough support to go on the tiering slate, and then enough votes to get the QB. They went though process and volc got banned. So what if 'nothing new' was added to it: the meta has changed, and people felt that it's presence was enough to let it go. And it's not like it's been completely off the radar, as there were complaints about it in the pre home meta, so it's comes as no surprise to see it being booted.

If people are still salty about the volc QB, they can let the council know, and especially during surveys. And then, if there is enough support, they can do a retest. Like with Cinderace and Melmetal back in IoA gen 8 meta. You can still have your QB and suspect, just we get to see a volc less meta. Also, who cares whether it's a new introduction or not. See IoA Cinderace QB.

To be honest, Volcs probably been high on the test list for a while. It's pretty much been one of the most potent setup sweepers for a while. In BW ou, they decided to ban gems over volc, Gen 8 nearly saw it suspected during the IoA, but it was short lived, but remained on people's radar. This gen, it got better at matchup fishing, and we are finally done. It's a very strong Mon, and a real matchup fish, but, finally, it's been shown the door. Again, if there is enough support, or we see tera banned, or we get DLC, expect it back.

IoA Cinderace ban was because it had protean released. If Volcarona had just got protean, people would feel very differently about a quickban, because it's something new. But Volcarona did not get anything new. So it shouldn't have been quickbanned.

I'm honestly shocked people are having trouble with this concept. Quickbans are done when something new is released. Volcarona is not new. It got nothing new. So it shouldn't have been on the slate for a quickban in the first place

 

[lolgod3]

if reddit didnt go on strike I could take any random message in here and post it on a stinkpost sunday and it would get likes, seriously quit complaining if you really dont like the decisions just play gen 8 or natdex or go to ubers

finch probably is having a mental breakdown from all this happening right now so leave him alone, he's not chatGPT where you can yell at them forever and they'd comply, humans have emotions and should not be treated as a punching bag for insults and stuff

 

[tommytt22]

IoA Cinderace ban was because it had protean released. If Volcarona had just got protean, people would feel very differently about a quickban, because it's something new. But Volcarona did not get anything new. So it shouldn't have been quickbanned.

I'm honestly shocked people are having trouble with this concept. Quickbans are done when something new is released. Volcarona is not new. It got nothing new. So it shouldn't have been on the slate for a quickban in the first place

In defense of the council here theres been a lot of things that needed a quickban this generation, and you can only really go 1 or 2 at a time. Pre home there was espathra, chi-yu, flutter mane, iron bundle, palafin, all of which had a quickban. There was the tera survey and then the chien-pao and walking wake suspect (lol). Everything on that list seemed more pressing than volc so it didnt really get looked at for a quickban, and after wake's suspect they made the call to do nothing until the release of home. I think whats changed is that we expected home to have a few things capable of controlling volc but it was quickly estalished that nothing viable was up to the job.

If theres one thing we can all agree on, Volc was not broken without tera, and if tera ever gets banned or restricted, itll probably be the first thing to come back (along with espathra)

 

[Chameleon]

Anyone upset with why Volcarona was quickbanned seemingly "out of nowhere" needs to read the reasonings provided by the council members. Even if many disagree - which is obvious given the uproar - it was a thoroughly considered decision and the council members shouldn't be accused of anything heinous. They've done a great job in this tumultuous generation.

Now, if I were to give any advice to Finch and the rest of the council.... It would be to provide specific details of why survey responses do not line up with council actions. Up until this point the council has been touting how surveys are great, and lo and behold, pretty much every decision has been in line with survey results.

Now for the first time, the survey results and council decision are antithetical to each other. Which is bringing about calls of hypocrisy, corruption... lol. All of that is over the top. People are reading too far into it. I doubt Big Stall is paying Finch millions, nor do I believe he's involved in illegal gambling schemes around tournament players who can't handle Volcarona.

The only possible conspiracy I can think of is banning Volc to drum up anti-Tera support ("save Volcarona!"), and I say that as a joke.

Having a suspect instead of a QB might have been a polite way to acknowledge the survey results. But the lack of it is no reason to launch personal attacks. Hopefully everyone can simmer down a bit... consider this time period Volcarona's "reverse suspect test".

 

[Empress Mobile]

Should’ve finished my comment, my bad, but it’s not JUST that people want suspects, it’s that people want suspects on two *specific* Pokemon who were not given the opportunity. And for council to, for once, actually say that you may have made a mistake. Council simply admitting maybe they were rash and made a bad decision instead of doubling down would go a LONG way to easing people who are upset.

There is no reason to appease people who are harassing and threatening council members, painting absurd conspiracies about the quickbans, and/or clogging the thread with an endless barrage of inflammatory nonsense. The problem with your proposed solution is two-fold. One, the council has no need to admit to a "mistake". They acted within their authority and made a decision that many people disagree with. That's not the same. Second, I highly doubt that this would do anything meaningful to appease the massive cohort of people engaging in behavior that is frankly embarrassing. It's fine to disagree with the decision. As I've stated in other posts I also disagree with the decision. But at this point I hope they don't reverse it, at least not without a re-suspect. I hope the council doesn't give in to pressure that has been widely applied in such a cruel and unreasonable way.

 

[lolgod3]

In defense of the council here theres been a lot of things that needed a quickban this generation, and you can only really go 1 or 2 at a time. Pre home there was espathra, chi-yu, flutter mane, iron bundle, palafin, all of which had a quickban. There was the tera survey and then the chien-pao and walking wake suspect (lol). Everything on that list seemed more pressing than volc so it didnt really get looked at for a quickban, and after wake's suspect they made the call to do nothing until the release of home. I think whats changed is that we expected home to have a few things capable of controlling volc but it was quickly estalished that nothing viable was up to the job.

If theres one thing we can all agree on, Volc was not broken without tera, and if tera ever gets banned or restricted, itll probably be the first thing to come back (along with espathra)

Espathra is still OU without tera because speed boost stored power is insane