That is why USUM was the best, Fini helped with that status spread no sense and megas/z crystals with knock off.
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v2 [Update on Post #5186]
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I always wonder why this sort of argument is appealing to people. Yeah you had to prep for scald and toxic, you have to prep for entry hazards and setup sweepers too. I'd rather physical attackers be afraid of hard switching into bulky waters than the current mess of hyperoffense that is gen9ou, not because I think there's something inherently wrong with prepping for HO but because I just find the play style's prominence boring, it's not the kind of ou I like to play.
Relying on a 30% chance to check a physical mon is bad and shouldn't happen on a competivive game, there was games back on gen7 where you could win just by using SD in front of Pex, with a 70% of the time it was the right choice. That is the aspect I don't like about scald more, IMO it encouragues bad teambuilding and plays from the users. Of course a good player could do better plays and make better teams, but still a move like scald just shouldn't exist on a competivive game. If it were a move like nuzzle (weak but always gets the status) I would have no complains, but just like it is scald is awful, just don't become crazy with the distribution, that would be like giving fire flash to almost every physcial mon in the game.
Scald is not supposed to be a check for setup sweepers boosting in front of you, like you said it is unreliable for that. It's supposed to make it harder for setup sweepers and breakers to hard switch in to bulky threats. If scald burning a setup sweeper in one turn really is your path to victory then you've already been outmaneuvered and will likely lose. This doesn't feel uncompetitive to me, Pokemon as a game heavily features managing probabilities and scald is a good example of why such random outcomes can be good and fun. I would actually find a water type burn nuzzle to be more annoying than scald is; it would definitely make pex more annoying for one.
I really hope Scald is just for a few specific Waters like Milotic because they really made the nerfed version in Chilling Water, distributed it to everything, and backtracking on that in the SAME GENERATION it was introduced in sounds really, really bad to me, lol.
It is uncompetitive because defensive teams need to play safer, they already have a tons of things against them (flinches, crits, def drops, an so on.) So adding a move that makes them check physical attackers (or cripple other stuff) but with just a 30% chance is super bad and why I consider it to be bad from a competivive standpoint, it is a move you need to click several times to get something from it, so it encouragues making bad plays fishing for the burn in situations where you shouldn't.
Bc Scorching Sands Lando T is not as annoying as Scald Pex right?
Pikachu-Hoenn @ Light Ball
Ability: Lightning Rod
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Brick Break
- Wild Charge
- Trailblaze
- Play Rough
252+ Atk Light Ball Pikachu-Hoenn Brick Break vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kingambit: 360-424 (105.5 - 124.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tera Fairy Pikachu-Hoenn: 130-153 (61.6 - 72.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Light Ball Pikachu-Hoenn Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Azumarill: 450-530 (111.3 - 131.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Light Ball Pikachu-Hoenn Wild Charge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Basculegion: 530-626 (139.1 - 164.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Light Ball Pikachu-Hoenn Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Breloom: 302-356 (115.7 - 136.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Light Ball Tera Fairy Pikachu-Hoenn Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Baxcalibur: 404-476 (108.8 - 128.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Light Ball Pikachu-Hoenn Wild Charge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 264-312 (66.1 - 78.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Light Ball Pikachu-Hoenn Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo: 246-290 (48.8 - 57.5%) -- 95.3% chance to 2HKO
Don't tempt me I'll pikado it
Also, thank you to everyone for the kind words about the Calyrex post! It was a lot of fun to work on and to echo the sentiments of users like artificialdeath the ability to make creative sets viably work is my favorite part of Tera - I haven't had this much overall fun in an OU metagame since the days of running Dry Skin Parasect during Gen 5's weather wars.
They completely gutted Pikachu this gen by taking away Extreme Speed and Knock Off. Tera Normal Fake Out + Extreme Speed could have given it some usability as a revenge killer or something.On the topic of Scald/Toxic - I agree with sims796 that distribution is key here and that both of those moves are manageable as long everything doesn't randomly get them. Limited distribution for those moves is the way to go, as it makes the Pokemon who get them feel like they have an extra dimension to them, rather than simply being two moves that almost anything can get that make them annoying tech options to watch out for. We've gotta be careful though... discourse has the potential to become rather... toxic, and the heated conversations are reaching... scalding temperatures
Pikachu-Hoenn @ Light Ball
Ability: Lightning Rod
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Brick Break
- Wild Charge
- Trailblaze
- Play Rough
252+ Atk Light Ball Pikachu-Hoenn Brick Break vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kingambit: 360-424 (105.5 - 124.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tera Fairy Pikachu-Hoenn: 130-153 (61.6 - 72.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Light Ball Pikachu-Hoenn Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Azumarill: 450-530 (111.3 - 131.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Light Ball Pikachu-Hoenn Wild Charge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Basculegion: 530-626 (139.1 - 164.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Light Ball Pikachu-Hoenn Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Breloom: 302-356 (115.7 - 136.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Light Ball Tera Fairy Pikachu-Hoenn Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Baxcalibur: 404-476 (108.8 - 128.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Light Ball Pikachu-Hoenn Wild Charge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 264-312 (66.1 - 78.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Light Ball Pikachu-Hoenn Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo: 246-290 (48.8 - 57.5%) -- 95.3% chance to 2HKO
Don't tempt me I'll pikado it
Also, thank you to everyone for the kind words about the Calyrex post! It was a lot of fun to work on and to echo the sentiments of users like artificialdeath the ability to make creative sets viably work is my favorite part of Tera - I haven't had this much overall fun in an OU metagame since the days of running Dry Skin Parasect during Gen 5's weather wars.
I was gonna go a lot more in-depth but I have to do a lot of college work today lmaoOn the topic of Scald/Toxic - I agree with sims796 that distribution is key here and that both of those moves are manageable as long everything doesn't randomly get them. Limited distribution for those moves is the way to go, as it makes the Pokemon who get them feel like they have an extra dimension to them, rather than simply being two moves that almost anything can get that make them annoying tech options to watch out for. We've gotta be careful though... discourse has the potential to become rather... toxic, and the heated conversations are reaching... scalding temperatures
Pikachu-Hoenn @ Light Ball
Ability: Lightning Rod
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Brick Break
- Wild Charge
- Trailblaze
- Play Rough
252+ Atk Light Ball Pikachu-Hoenn Brick Break vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kingambit: 360-424 (105.5 - 124.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tera Fairy Pikachu-Hoenn: 130-153 (61.6 - 72.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Light Ball Pikachu-Hoenn Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Azumarill: 450-530 (111.3 - 131.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Light Ball Pikachu-Hoenn Wild Charge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Basculegion: 530-626 (139.1 - 164.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Light Ball Pikachu-Hoenn Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Breloom: 302-356 (115.7 - 136.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Light Ball Tera Fairy Pikachu-Hoenn Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Baxcalibur: 404-476 (108.8 - 128.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Light Ball Pikachu-Hoenn Wild Charge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 264-312 (66.1 - 78.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Light Ball Pikachu-Hoenn Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo: 246-290 (48.8 - 57.5%) -- 95.3% chance to 2HKO
Don't tempt me I'll pikado it
Also, thank you to everyone for the kind words about the Calyrex post! It was a lot of fun to work on and to echo the sentiments of users like artificialdeath the ability to make creative sets viably work is my favorite part of Tera - I haven't had this much overall fun in an OU metagame since the days of running Dry Skin Parasect during Gen 5's weather wars.
I was also considering that, instead of using your (cool) Base Stats chart, I'd do something related to electricity like GPU performance
alas, college level math comes for us all.
Sorry, are you trying to argue that scald makes fat less viable? Because the opposite is true, scald makes defense teams more viable by giving them a tool to reduce the free movement of offensive teams.
considering this picture depicted a guy objecting to a school being rebuilt after it burned down it's accurate to use this for such a questionable opinion stated so confidently
(in all seriousness i can see the case for toxic but knock off shouldve stayed a utility move and scald should only be on a few passive bulky waters)
I think this is my take exactly. I liked toxic having wide distribution giving teams more tools to deal with fat than just wallbreaking. Knock off being everywhere was kinda dumb. And scald should only be for a select few mons, but for the most part the only mons that cared about it were bulky waters anyway.
Yea thats why I edited it to say "really passive" bulky waters. I could understand it being on Alomomola for example so it doesn't immediately become setup fodder for a powerful physical sweeper. Debatable whether Pex should get it back though
integrating a knock-off absorber & a pokémon that doesn’t care too much for scald burns was very easy in g8. pex, clef, fini, torn-t, gking & slowbro all come to mind. offensive teams weren’t really weak to these moves either, considering the fact that not only did many of these pokémon work well on said teams, they also didn’t have to engage in the attritional method of play that balances did.
sorry, but complaining about these moves is genuinely a skill issue. there were a million & one ways of circumventing them, & you should build better if you think otherwise.
like, the only people who could think otherwise were those who switched their weavile into a slowking only to get burnt.
sorry, but complaining about these moves is genuinely a skill issue. there were a million & one ways of circumventing them, & you should build better if you think otherwise.
like, the only people who could think otherwise were those who switched their weavile into a slowking only to get burnt.
Its annoying because the Pokemon that care less about getting Knocked or Scalded are also the Pokemon that learn Scald, Knock Off, and also can't do shit to other Scald or Knock Offs
Pex for instance
Clef comes in on Pex and takes Knock and Scaldand just clicks Knock for fre
Fini losing Lefties can suck honestly, and while it is a good Scald absorber, its not making that much progress against most of the Pokemon clicking it
Gking hated losing its item and also same concept, but at least it and Slowbro could Teleport out
Ok I go to Torn T, which sucks btw because HDB, and then what? U-Turn into what? it's not like its quad weak with base 50 defense, it can probably stay in and click it again. So why even bother? I'm just absorbing it, to pivot into another Pokemon to absorb it? That's so lame.
etc. etc.
It is just less fun for most people because a lot of the times, when not in high level play, the optimal move is to just keep clicking the move yourself. Most of the Pokemon that can switch in can't do particularly much to other absorbers, and that leads to a Fire Emblem PVP moment.
For those who haven't played that, there was one game with PVP, and the optimal play was to just not move. People would do nothing for 50 turns waiting because it is sub optimal to be the first to attack. This is not nearly the case in Pokemon because unlike Fire Emblem, you can't do nothing (no PP loss or anything), so it's not that exaggerated, but if it even happens for 15 turns in a given play session, not just a game, that's memorable to a lot of people in a bad way.
Scald/Knock wars with Bulky Pokemon turns into Turtling.
I am aware that this is much less the case in high level play, but that isn't the majority of players. The momentum loss matters less as it is less capitalized on. In a way you are right, there is a skill issue involved. Unfortunately to the people who constantly claim fun doesn't matter, it does! And if not being a higher level player so either you or the opponent can prevent a game of chicken reliably, it's just not going to be much fun. Thus, you have a generation that isn't popular with the majority, who are not at that level.
Plus, this is going on the assumption that it does get better, which not every experienced player agrees was always the case. And Scald has been controversial since... Gen 5, even among the highest of skill brackets.
Indeed, I mean Corv of all things are immune to one and not the other.
btw this is as a gen 8 ou enjoyer whose favorite gen 8 metagame was home
I know I have lost all credibility after this post
The issue wasn't that these moves had no switch-ins - it was that they were Riskless. If I had a Lando-T out and the other person had either had a flying type or Levitator, the best move to click would be Toxic or Knock Off because it guarantees progress, even if the opponent didn't switch into those Pokemon. This applied to many other Pokemon like Weavile. Sure, it had counters like Buzzwole, but Clicking Knock Off would still always be the play since Buzzwole would lose its lefties or Boots and be chipped away by hazards.
A lot of options that you had during teambuilding in gen-8 felt very fake because in practice, many Pokemon would get worn down extremely quickly by Toxic and Knock Off (and Scald potentially) lest you run a hyper specific moveset. Or I could run Clef / Pex / Corv and not gaf while switching infinitely for 1000 turns (which I have seen happen in several games).
For the record, I liked gen 8 OU, but the wide distribution of Toxic and Knock Off wasn't ideal.
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Disgusting.
In general my dislike of scald comes from it being an incredibly low risk, extremely high reward move on any Pokémon that can spam it. Fat waters can sit there all day burn fishing with little to no risk on their end, while anything that comes in has to worry about potentially crippling status. People mention pex a lot because it’s pretty notorious for this, but I think that Vincune is the absolute epitome of this. It’s probably the most obnoxious move ever introduced, and while it doesn’t necessarily make offense bad/unviable, it makes it harder to enjoy because of rng bullshit
Making a lengthy Roaring Moon post soon - prepare any questions
This is really a gen8 problem, gen7 is not like this despite also having nigh universal knock and toxic.
Megas and z moves were super good against knock off and even trick that nowadays some persons consider it too be too strong rn.
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