So called "free thinkers" when viable heat.
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v2 [Update on Post #5186]
- Thread starter TPP
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It's JOUver.
Delibird Heart just made the new ladder. Respect
So games being decided by Scald, Static, Flame Body, Icicle Crash and Thunder Wave dice rolls are OK, but Quick Claw isn't because its unconventional?
Got it.
i don't play SVOU but this is my dream, galarian slowbros living in harmony, quick drawing and quick clawing everyone with their friends, procreating til they take over the world, finally and galarian slowking fell what an L shitmon and doesn't deserve life or anything, thank you for freeing galarian slowbro and showing the world, thank you.
I feel like the difference here is that Scald, Static, Thunder Wave etc has ample counterplay, and Quick Claw kinda doesn't? If you lose to Scald burn alone in a Scald meta, then that's either bad teambuilding or bad playing regardless of the playstyle you use, but if you're running offense, there is literally nothing you can do against a Quick Claw proc most of the time, since it completely ruins any attempt at revenge killing (an extremely crucial concept for, well, literlaly any playstyle other than full stall)
Like, counterplay to Scald is switching in a Pokemon that doesn't care too much about scald. Counterplay to Static is to avoid use contact moves or Protective Pads when your opponent has a Static user and instead using smart double-switches, counterplay to TWave is using a TWave immune Pokemon or something slower and bulkier that doesn't mind losing turns, etc. But counterplay to Quick Claw, when used on a wallbreaker, is like... out-prioritizing I guess? Either that or building your team to forgo revenge killers for walls which is just not feasible for a lot of teams because... again, you're dealing with wallbreakers who also have that 20% chance to outspeed anything faster!
And you can't consistently beat Quick Claw users with any specialized Quick Claw check like you cna with the other moves mentioned, because... not everything has TWave or Scald, and Static is rare, but *everything can carry Quick Claw if it wants to*, especially offensive setup mons that might not need boots or lefties and can't carry a choice item.
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Not entirely true, priority moves are a thing.
Will be against Quick Claw Ban if there is some suspect. I like the luck element ruining some games.
snarkily gesturing at some perceived contradiction is not an argument
not my fault you can’t tell the difference
not my fault you can’t tell the difference
Quick Claw is literally permanent 20% chance Custap Berry. It's kinda bonkers how having priority on everything does that
Oh wait
Oh wait
Kinda, but not really (edited my post to address this.) If your priority user(s) lose to whatever Quick Claw user(s) you face regardless, what do? I mean, you could run a mono-prio user gimmick but uh... that seems like a bad idea lol
you man are cowards for not running drumbro
I like how you guys proof again and again and again that item clause is needed. It is "fun" observing what Game Freak did right nearly 20 years ago and you fumble that part year after year.
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Knock Off and priority still exist to stop Quick Clawers in their tracks, though aren't completely reliable. Thunder Wave has ample counterplay I suppose in Grounds / Electrics, although many of the key T-Wavers like Rotom-W and Zapdos have ways to get around the common Grounds. Can't do much about Static / Flame Body procs though, even special attackers need to be wary using U-Turn (which could be a good or bad thing depending on who you ask).
I personally wouldn't be sad if Quick Claw goes - I thought it was busted last gen on Slowbro-G in the IOA metagame and a unique case could be made against it and Quick Claw due to having a 44% proc rate. The effect is also incredibly powerful, giving priority to high BP moves. I think King's Rock had a similar basis for a ban because of Cloyster & Beat Up users abusing it for 41 - 50% flinch changes, which was way too high on high power coverage moves. That being said, the more I think about it, the more I felt that stuff like Quick Claw and Brightpowder being hyperfixated on as "undesirable luck elements" to be a bullshit take. Encouraging degenerate playstyles is not a valid basis for a ban, especially since Thunder Wave and flinches can do the exact same crap if players wished. Hell, one of the main reasons Swagplay was so OP in prior gens was because of Thunder Wave. That being said, Swagger's 50% proc rate for confusion could also get out of hand (now its only 50% if the opponent is also paralyzed).
For the record, I don't think Thunder Wave, Scald, Icicle Crash, Flame Body, or Static are broken, but they have encouraged similar dice rolling in the past and have decided several games. Singling out Quick Claw as bad for encouraging dice rolling feels disingenuous. Focus on the fact that its giving priority to incredibly strong attacks, not the dice rolling.
Quick Claw pushes the boundaries of "RNG" way to much imo Extreme Speed, Sucker Punch, Jet these all have valid ways to outplay and beat them but there is literally no way to predict or play against Claw it robs the players ability to play (Tera does this too but story for another time)
In all seriousness though Claw has too go after we actually stabilize the metagame, Its presence means that the metagame is in deep trouble and we need to dig it out of this ditch together!
In all seriousness though Claw has too go after we actually stabilize the metagame, Its presence means that the metagame is in deep trouble and we need to dig it out of this ditch together!
I'm going to need someone to explain to me how Quick Claw isn't just a variant of Bright Powder - some % of the time, you're just going to get an attack in that you shouldn't be able to; even when the opponent clicks a 100% accuracy move.
It's always been wild to me that one of these is banned, and the other is something that's mostly relegated to meme status.
It's always been wild to me that one of these is banned, and the other is something that's mostly relegated to meme status.
These are only equivalent if you assume a pokemon dies every round. Most of the time both sides will get a move off.
The number of viable Knock Off users isn't that high this gen, and it's still vulnerable to the same problem in that the Quick Claw user can roll a 20% to outspeed and KO the user. Fitting a priority user on every team is also non-trivial, and the priority moves don't even necessarily work due to not having enough power to KO.
The difference is that there are ways to deal with Static/Flame Body users without contact moves, it's not like contact move users are the only viable method of KOing them. On the other hand, most non-stall teams depend on outspeeding and KOing to deal with some portion of the attackers in the tier.
Thunder Wave at least has an actual use as speed control, and the implications of banning it are a lot more complicated. High-flinch rate moves cannot be removed without removing a huge swath of actual attacks or modding the game. Quick Claw, on the other hand, is an easy target for removal. While Pokemon does inevitably have a lot of luck-based elements, I don't see why we can't remove something that causes unnecessary variance if there's effectively zero collateral.
A mon doesn't need to die every round - just in the round where you're calculating the item's effect. And especially in this era, you only need one proc to completely change the flow of the game.
Especially because, in many of these cases, both mons are threatening to, if not OHKO, severely cripple the other.. if they get a hit in.
I definitely feel like this QDQC stuff is my discussion. Nice to see people once again combing over the stupidity of both an item and ability that grant stacked perma-priority. Here is a link to my previous final post I made on QDQC during SSOU, but it doesn't even finalize months worth of research and reasoning I did on QDQC. That discussion for this uncompetitive item was cut prematurely because of the following generation. In its purest form, QDQC is uncompetitive. I'm not droning over definitions of words and meaning behind a loosely established canon explanation of the word, it is simply uncompetitive. The ability to have turn bracket priority either 20% or nearly 50% of the time is extremely unhealthy and interrupts competitive play. It differs from other RNG related elements like freeze, or full para, or sleep in that it is a permanent element which has inconsistent counterplay (i.e. Knock Off, priority) and endangers the builder.
You know what else is a permanent element which has inconsistent counterplay and endangers the builder? You guessed it, Terastalization! National Dex recently has had a lot of outcry from the majority of the outspoken playerbase about the uncompetitive and polarizing nature of Terastalization (the link can be found here). No restrictions, no cuts, no buts, no coconuts; and a lot of very credible people want it gone. Why? Well that can be summarized in a few simple bulletpoints taken from Sealoo:
1. Beating things you shouldnt beat.
2. The fear of Tera, forcing an unreasonable level of scouting.
3. Knowing what’s coming, but no way to stop it.
4. The immense variance allowed by Tera creates way too much to consider in an already crowded tier.
This was just in NDOU where they are now undergoing a suspect test, but this same line of thought has overflowed into SVOU. The initial reaction to Terastalization from the very beginning, bar my own (and I have been very staunch about my negative approach to Tera, mind you), was relatively neutral or positive. However, since that point a lot of the casual and experienced playerbase including myself has had a rather sour opinion of Terastalization that mirrors NDOU. It was already a close vote the first time Tera rolled around, but that was only in favor of a restriction- which I have already stated is not an effective means to control Tera but only a huge waste of time. In my opinion, this option should never be explored with the intent of being a permanent solution. Terastalization needs to either be banned or not banned, cut and dry. I understand we've only recently unchained some of the tier's biggest threats for retests post-home, and I would not expect immediate action, but this requires attention.
If QDQC and Terastalization have been accepted as unhealthy aspects of the game in one form or another by a majority of, if not a decent chunk of the credible playerbase, then why has nothing been done about it and why is no one discussing the ramifications of allowing them to linger longer?
PLEASE if you care anything for the future health of this metagame make your thoughts known about Tera, and if you're also loosely involved in or concerned about NDOU go get reqs and vote there as well.
You know what else is a permanent element which has inconsistent counterplay and endangers the builder? You guessed it, Terastalization! National Dex recently has had a lot of outcry from the majority of the outspoken playerbase about the uncompetitive and polarizing nature of Terastalization (the link can be found here). No restrictions, no cuts, no buts, no coconuts; and a lot of very credible people want it gone. Why? Well that can be summarized in a few simple bulletpoints taken from Sealoo:
1. Beating things you shouldnt beat.
2. The fear of Tera, forcing an unreasonable level of scouting.
3. Knowing what’s coming, but no way to stop it.
4. The immense variance allowed by Tera creates way too much to consider in an already crowded tier.
This was just in NDOU where they are now undergoing a suspect test, but this same line of thought has overflowed into SVOU. The initial reaction to Terastalization from the very beginning, bar my own (and I have been very staunch about my negative approach to Tera, mind you), was relatively neutral or positive. However, since that point a lot of the casual and experienced playerbase including myself has had a rather sour opinion of Terastalization that mirrors NDOU. It was already a close vote the first time Tera rolled around, but that was only in favor of a restriction- which I have already stated is not an effective means to control Tera but only a huge waste of time. In my opinion, this option should never be explored with the intent of being a permanent solution. Terastalization needs to either be banned or not banned, cut and dry. I understand we've only recently unchained some of the tier's biggest threats for retests post-home, and I would not expect immediate action, but this requires attention.
If QDQC and Terastalization have been accepted as unhealthy aspects of the game in one form or another by a majority of, if not a decent chunk of the credible playerbase, then why has nothing been done about it and why is no one discussing the ramifications of allowing them to linger longer?
PLEASE if you care anything for the future health of this metagame make your thoughts known about Tera, and if you're also loosely involved in or concerned about NDOU go get reqs and vote there as well.
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I still find it very annoying when people try to argue that removing people's ways to vote about one of the most polarizing topics in Smogon history is a good idea.
The next Tera suspect needs options. Period. You are simply incorrect if you say/think otherwise. If people want to vote for a restriction, then they should be able to; it being narrow last time isn't evidence to remove options, it's to keep it.
The only "good" reason to not have options like Tera Preview is because you think that, otherwise, Tera might not be banned. If you think that, you are opposing the qualified playerbase's potential wishes by denying them an option that you do not see as valid, when we decided months ago it is. In that case, you are being against the playerbase. You are actively antagonistic to it, in my opinion.
As long as a Policy Review thread acknowledges it as valid, then it should be allowed to happen. No matter how inconvenient it is to what you want to happen.
PLEASE if you care anything for the future health of this metagame make your thoughts known about Tera
This is also an eye-roller. People have been talking about Tera good or bad for months (even when mods say to move on), of varying skill levels, experience, time in the community; you don't need a call to action worded as to suggest only those whom you agree with have the tier's best intentions at heart.
The next Tera suspect needs options. Period. You are simply incorrect if you say/think otherwise. If people want to vote for a restriction, then they should be able to; it being narrow last time isn't evidence to remove options, it's to keep it.
The only "good" reason to not have options like Tera Preview is because you think that, otherwise, Tera might not be banned. If you think that, you are opposing the qualified playerbase's potential wishes by denying them an option that you do not see as valid, when we decided months ago it is. In that case, you are being against the playerbase. You are actively antagonistic to it, in my opinion.
As long as a Policy Review thread acknowledges it as valid, then it should be allowed to happen. No matter how inconvenient it is to what you want to happen.
PLEASE if you care anything for the future health of this metagame make your thoughts known about Tera
This is also an eye-roller. People have been talking about Tera good or bad for months (even when mods say to move on), of varying skill levels, experience, time in the community; you don't need a call to action worded as to suggest only those whom you agree with have the tier's best intentions at heart.
You may not like it, but this is what peak gen 9 ou looks like:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1891917034
This transpired in a roomtour today. ggs to my opp
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1891917034
This transpired in a roomtour today. ggs to my opp
50% speed reduction and 25% chance to lose your turn: Fair and balanced, A++ would add to my team again.
20% chance to go first, as long as the opponent isn't using a priority move: OH NO THINK OF THE CHILDREN.
20% chance to go first, as long as the opponent isn't using a priority move: OH NO THINK OF THE CHILDREN.
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