AAA Almost Any Ability

[ghostlike]

On that note...

Dondozo @ Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 HP / 224 Def / 32 SpD
Impish Nature
- Body Press
- Heavy Slam
- Earthquake
- Liquidation
I'm sick of Voclanion and Gapdos breaking through every teams I built so I created this set. The idea is you can safely scout and then switch to the counter. If Gapdos clicks BB, switch to Corv. If it clicks CC, switch to Scream. I feel like banded breakers are way to strong rn and Dondozo is the only regen mon that is safe against most of them, bar Meow. Against Volc you can stay in and click Liquidation if it clicks Weather Ball or switch out to DesoLand mons if it clicks Steam Eruption. The best bet is still to switch out cause you don't want to get burned. I have specially defensive DesoLand Iron Moth on my team to switch into Weather Ball and Steam Eruption, Dondozo is there to scout for Earth Power. Dondozo is also pretty good against other special attacker like non offensive Moth or Heatran. With this defensive core of Corv, Scream, Dondozo and Moth you will still be weak to No Guard Zapdos so Water Absorb Clodsire or Blissey might be a better alternative for Iron Moth (I like my team to be more offensive). I don't think AV is the best way to use Dondozo rn but I think Regen Dozo has many potential in this meta as a catch-all physical wall, paired it with Blissey and I think you will have a good option against most of the threats in this chaos meta without having to run fat or full on stall.

 

[Izmagack]

would MGLO magnezone be any good? no drawback LO boosted steel beam sounds fun, but i’m not sure if it would be any good. slow volt switches are always nice, but the crippling weaknesses of the mon (*cough cough* 4x ground weakness *cough cough*) would hinder it. LO boosted thunderbolts would help with corv tho. thoughts?

 

[UT]

Why a Belly Drum ban is not happening

This will be my final attempt at articulating why we are so adamant that a Belly Drum ban is not on the table, and in larger part, why tiering policy is the way it is.

As I am sure you are well aware, Smogon prioritizes banning Pokemon over moves / abilities / anything else; only if a move / ability / etc is broken on a wide range of Pokemon, usually accepted to be all or a vast majority of fully evolved users, is a ban on the move / ability considered.

OMs add an additional layer of tiering for their specific mechanics; since this is mostly about AAA and Belly Drum, I'll just be referring to abilities here. We still prioritize Pokemon bans first; if an ability is only broken on one Pokemon (Sturdy Shedinja being the most famous example), we ban the Pokemon. If the ability is broken on a wide range of Pokemon (usually 3-5, but this is a bit more subjective) then we look to ban the ability instead. This layer of tiering only applies to the mechanics related to the OM; AAA can't restrict moves, STABmons can't ban abilities, etc.

The reason for this is simple; very few abilities are universally broken, but it's the combination of the stats, typing, and movepool that cause a Pokemon to be broken. Even abilities as bonkers as Wonder Guard and Huge Power are not broken when restricted to Pokemon with one HP or 50 Attack. Similarly, Sheer Force is not broken on every single Pokemon in standard play, but only ones with a high enough combination of stats and movepool to break it. So in most cases, we ban Pokemon since they are the combination of all the things.

In OMs, we follow the same principle. In AAA, we ban mons first, abilities second, and only in cases of a move being broken on every single fully evolved user do we seriously consider banning a move. Recent examples include Last Respects, Shed Tail, and Revival Blessing, as they caused shenanigans on all their fully evolved users and across multiple abilities.

Looking at Belly Drum specifically, there are two Pokemon currently banned (Hariyama and Iron Hands) due in large part to Belly Drum. A third, Ursaluna, is currently being suspected. Especially if Ursaluna gets banned, and especially if a new Pokemon rises to take its place, this is a pattern. But, what is the pattern really?

Belly Drum is not the only thing tying these Pokemon together. All of their sets rely on their high Attack, Drain Punch, and Triage as well. Without any one of these elements, the set falls apart and is not broken. It is the combination of all four things that break these Pokemon.

Similarly, we can fairly definitively say that not every Belly Drummer is broken in AAA. The full list of fully evolved Belly Drummers is:

Even if Ursaluna gets banned, that is 3/14. Charitably, maybe Chesnaught can Charizard could also be broken, but I am skeptical, and even then we are looking at 5/14. Not even half of the fully evolved users are remotely broken with Belly Drum, and looking at the Ursaluna thread, it may well only be 2/14.

I alluded to the fact that all three of the considered Pokemon also rely on Drain Punch; why would Belly Drum be a "better" ban over Drain Punch when it's on exactly as many broken sets? Shadow Ball by my count is key to six different Pokemon being broken (Flutter Mane, Gengar, Zoroark-H, Spectier, Dragapult, Gholdengo), double as many as Belly Drum or Drain Punch; should we consider a Shadow Ball ban to free all of those? No, and it would be ridiculous to.

So, how do we determine what we take tiering action against? Currently, we are in the "mons" stage, since only two users are broken. If we get another one or two, since all of them rely on the same ability, Triage would be the next correct ban by our tiering policy; this removes the ambiguity of "what part of the set do we remove to balance it" since the answer is the part that our OM adds in. I do no think there is any reasonable argument that after a Triage ban Belly Drum continues to be an issue.

This ended up being way longer than I expected and rambled a bit, but ultimately, tiering policy here is clear. We currently have 1.5 mons banned "due" to Belly Drum, and at most are looking at 4-5. Belly Drum is an arbitrary ban, it's not even the only unique move on the sets. There is another ban that is more correct in our tiering policy, and our tiering policy helps keep things consistent and avoid the messiness of "what is actually the correct ban?"

We have confirmed with the tiering admins that this is the correct play; we are not going to ban a move that isn't broken on the majority of Pokemon that learn it cause 1.5-5 Pokemon are broken with it. Especially not when a Triage ban also solves this issue, if it even extends beyond Hands / Haryiama.

I can't make you stop talking about Belly Drum, but hopefully this makes sense and gets it across that the decision is final and goes even above the mod team here. A Belly Drum ban is not happening, and arguments made to me, Isaiah, or any other mods here cannot change it. If you think Ursaluna, or Triage, or somehting else should be banned, would love to hear it. But hopefully that makes sense.

 

[Atha]

why would Belly Drum be a "better" ban over Drain Punch when it's on exactly as many broken sets?

I might be posting this in the wrong thread but here's a message I sent to Isaiah a couple weeks ago :

Not sure how realistic and how worth it is to ask for a policy change, but again I think we're in a case where the policy is a problem and most players agree.

 

[Grim_Blazer]

I might be posting this in the wrong thread but here's a message I sent to Isaiah a couple weeks ago :

View attachment 528344

Not sure how realistic and how worth it is to ask for a policy change, but again I think we're in a case where the policy is a problem and most players agree.

I haven’t fully explained my stance on the subject on the forums, although I did in the discord many times, but I think ATHA is on the right track with this proposal. I’ve always been on the side of a policy change ever since the situation first started and this is a very nice suggestion for a change in the wording in my opinion.

 

[Izmagack]

download is an interesting ability. free stat raise on switch in that raises the offensive stat that will help you more? yes please. yet it is wasted on porygon-z, as it A. has 80 base attack and II. adaptability (and analytic to some extent) is much better for the mon’s play style. therefore i wondered how the ability would do on a mixed attacker. and thus, download salamence was born

croissant (Salamence) @ Life Orb
Ability: Download
Tera Type: Dragon
EVs: 156 Atk / 252 SpA / 100 Spe
Naive Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Hurricane
- Earthquake
- Brick Break

this thing hits very hard, has excellent coverage, and is just kinda fun to use. lucario might honestly be better, and i could even see mons such as hydreigon, arcanine, or even ttar using a mixed download set.


p.s. my thoughts about MGLO magnezone were spot on steel beam hits like a truck :D

 

[ghostlike]

download is an interesting ability. free stat raise on switch in that raises the offensive stat that will help you more? yes please. yet it is wasted on porygon-z, as it A. has 80 base attack and II. adaptability (and analytic to some extent) is much better for the mon’s play style. therefore i wondered how the ability would do on a mixed attacker. and thus, download salamence was born

croissant (Salamence) @ Life Orb
Ability: Download
Tera Type: Dragon
EVs: 156 Atk / 252 SpA / 100 Spe
Naive Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Hurricane
- Earthquake
- Brick Break

this thing hits very hard, has excellent coverage, and is just kinda fun to use. lucario might honestly be better, and i could even see mons such as hydreigonor, a, or even ttar using a mixed download set.


p.s. my thoughts about MGLO magnezone were spot on steel beam hits like a truck :D

I think fire moves for Corv over Brick Break is probably better.

 

[ghostlike]

download is an interesting ability. free stat raise on switch in that raises the offensive stat that will help you more? yes please. yet it is wasted on porygon-z, as it A. has 80 base attack and II. adaptability (and analytic to some extent) is much better for the mon’s play style. therefore i wondered how the ability would do on a mixed attacker. and thus, download salamence was born

croissant (Salamence) @ Life Orb
Ability: Download
Tera Type: Dragon
EVs: 156 Atk / 252 SpA / 100 Spe
Naive Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Hurricane
- Earthquake
- Brick Break

this thing hits very hard, has excellent coverage, and is just kinda fun to use. lucario might honestly be better, and i could even see mons such as hydreigonor, a, or even ttar using a mixed download set.


p.s. my thoughts about MGLO magnezone were spot on steel beam hits like a truck :D

Also, unoptimized EVs.
EVs: 44 Atk / 8 Def / 252 SpA / 204 Spe
Naughty Nature
The nature boosts the stats by 10% so you want it to boost your highest stat. This is just your EVs but better.

 

[cat]

download is an interesting ability. free stat raise on switch in that raises the offensive stat that will help you more? yes please. yet it is wasted on porygon-z, as it A. has 80 base attack and II. adaptability (and analytic to some extent) is much better for the mon’s play style. therefore i wondered how the ability would do on a mixed attacker. and thus, download salamence was born

croissant (Salamence) @ Life Orb
Ability: Download
Tera Type: Dragon
EVs: 156 Atk / 252 SpA / 100 Spe
Naive Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Hurricane
- Earthquake
- Brick Break

this thing hits very hard, has excellent coverage, and is just kinda fun to use. lucario might honestly be better, and i could even see mons such as hydreigonor, a, or even ttar using a mixed download set.


p.s. my thoughts about MGLO magnezone were spot on steel beam hits like a truck :D

imo download isnt a good ability at all. lets say you wanted an attack boost for mence against skeledirge for a stronger eq but with skele's naturally lower spdef, download would give a special attack boost. download is inherently unreliable, in most scenarios you would prefer protean / libero on any mon with a more versatile movepool as it allows you to pick and choose what gets a boost

magnezone is pretty much outclassed by Lucario btw

 

[ghostlike]

imo download isnt a good ability at all. lets say you wanted an attack boost for mence against skeledirge for a stronger eq but with skele's naturally lower spdef, download would give a special attack boost. download is inherently unreliable, in most scenarios you would prefer protean / libero on any mon with a more versatile movepool as it allows you to pick and choose what gets a boost

magnezone is pretty much outclassed by Lucario btw

Tbf most dirges are EE so special attack raise is better. You can still put a lot of pressure on your opponent with Download. If you switch your mence on your opponent's RegenVest, you would get an attack boost. That will pressure your opponent into switching out to Corv and you can hit it with Fire Blast or something. Protean/Libero is way more unreliable because you have to get the prediction right.

 

[cat]

Tbf most dirges are EE so special attack raise is better. You can still put a lot of pressure on your opponent with Download. If you switch your mence on your opponent's RegenVest, you would get an attack boost. That will pressure your opponent into switching out to Corv and you can hit it with Fire Blast or something. Protean/Libero is way more unreliable because you have to get the prediction right.

Abilities
Desolate Land 37.145%
Earth Eater 29.589%

tbf this is may stats but w/e, back to the main point.

Download is flawed in many ways. Unaware completely invalidates it for one, lack of proper abusers - Download is only usable on mixed attackers; even then, they would prefer different abilities. Which then asks the question again, why not Protean / Libero? It gives the same 1.5x boost, ignores Unaware and the list of abusers are increased to anything with high base stats and BP moves, like Haxorus and Barraskewda. And I haven't mentioned the opportunity cost of not running tried and tested breakers like Chien-Pao over them.

 

[ghostlike]

Abilities
Desolate Land 37.145%
Earth Eater 29.589%

tbf this is may stats but w/e, back to the main point.

Download is flawed in many ways. Unaware completely invalidates it for one, lack of proper abusers - Download is only usable on mixed attackers; even then, they would prefer different abilities. Which then asks the question again, why not Protean / Libero? It gives the same 1.5x boost, ignores Unaware and the list of abusers are increased to anything with high base stats and BP moves, like Haxorus and Barraskewda. And I haven't mentioned the opportunity cost of not running tried and tested breakers like Chien-Pao over them.

Oh I forgot about Unaware. Good point.

 

[Izmagack]

thank y’all for your thoughts and suggestions! didn’t mean to start a small argument lol. i’ve adjusted the mence’s EVs per ghost’s suggestion and it works much better. additionally, i have traded brick break for fire blast and hurricane for dual wingbeat (dragon ascent distribution when???) and i am having an absolute blast using this mon. to ghost’s credit, forcing people to switch into corv to “check” me happens all the time and is a ton of fun. additionally, being able to click draco meteor and then not worry about the spatk drop cause i’m a mixed attacker and can simply use physical moves is super fun. however, to natcrozma’s credit, i certainly don’t think it’s incredible. protean might honestly work better. but i’m having fun and that’s what this game and even moreso this OM is all about. oh also MGLO magnezon is so much better than MGLO lucario. can the latter ohko a +1 spdef enamorous-t from full? idk i haven’t checked but probably not.

edit: lucario can ohko a +1 spdf enamorous-t from full, BUT NOT A PLUS TWO MAGNEZONE FTW BABYYYYYY

 

[KaiZ]

Theorymon time!

Maushold @ Wide Lens
Ability: Toxic Chain
Tera Type: Normal
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Population Bomb
- Bullet Seed
- Beat Up
- U-turn

Yeah don't actually use this if you want to play seriously but for fun you can poison many mons like corv or chomp thinking they can just wall it and surprise! They get badly poisoned ! Hopefully Toxic Chain won't be just Poison touch + Corrosion but I think it is leaning towards it , so enjoy the ability while it lasts before it gets banned day 1 of DLC!

 

[Izmagack]

Theorymon time!

Maushold @ Wide Lens
Ability: Toxic Chain
Tera Type: Normal
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Population Bomb
- Bullet Seed
- Beat Up
- U-turn

Yeah don't actually use this if you want to play seriously but for fun you can poison many mons like corv or chomp thinking they can just wall it and surprise! They get badly poisoned ! Hopefully Toxic Chain won't be just Poison touch + Corrosion but I think it is leaning towards it , so enjoy the ability while it lasts before it gets banned day 1 of DLC!

wide lens doesn’t work too well with multi hit moves that are not named pop bomb (and triple axle ig) so i’d replace bullet seed and beat up with something like crunch and tidy up/low kick. other than that very interesting set, will def steal this lol

 

[cjw405]

Uxie @ Leftovers
Ability: Toxic Debris
Tera Type: Psychic
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Relaxed Nature
- Future Sight
- U-turn
- Stealth Rock
- Encore

I'm having issues finding actually interesting gimmicks so have this for now.

This set lets you prey upon weak physical attacks to set up a layer of toxic spikes while also packing utility. With encore any removal attempts will result in a free u-turn and it lets you surprise any unsuspecting setup users (ahem ursaluna). You can pair this pokemon with fighting types that like the future sight damage like slither wing. The toxic spikes also annoys hyper offense teams cause they don't tend to have poison types to absorb it. Be careful as this set basically has no longevity and dies to any strong attacks.

 

[LatiasDigs]

Recently figured out a potential bait set for azelf

set

Azelf @ Life Orb /Choice Band
Ability: Protean
Tera Type: Psychic
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Play Rough
- Drain Punch
- Thunderbolt/Flamethrower
- U-turn

The overall point of this set is to bait out spdef walls (most people would expect azelf to be SPA, one that struggles against regenvest nonetheless) and obliterate them while also still being a fast physical attacker and pivot

Play rough and drain punch are your main attacks, with play rough being the best physical attack azelf gets (yeah :/) and fairy+fighting being good coverage with whats probably coming in. Tbolt/flamethrower is mainly for corv and fluffy mons when the set is inevitably revealed and physical walls are pressured in. U-turn is obviously for pivoting but also is what you use to hit meloetta, stab boosted uturn is no joke just ask slither wing.

Calcs

252 Atk Choice Band Protean Azelf Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Blissey: 708-834 (99.1 - 116.8%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Protean Azelf Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Goodra-Hisui: 356-422 (97.8 - 115.9%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Protean Azelf U-turn vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Meloetta: 414-488 (102.4 - 120.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Protean Azelf Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 446-528 (106.1 - 125.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Protean Azelf Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Muk-Alola: 271-319 (65.4 - 77%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Protean Azelf U-turn vs. 252 HP / 236+ Def Scream Tail: 123-145 (28.3 - 33.4%) -- 94% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Protean Azelf Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Corviknight: 270-320 (67.6 - 80.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4 SpA Protean Azelf Flamethrower vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Fluffy Corviknight: 540-640 (135.3 - 160.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Life Orb Protean Azelf Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Blissey: 616-725 (86.2 - 101.5%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Protean Azelf Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Goodra-Hisui: 307-367 (84.3 - 100.8%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Protean Azelf U-turn vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Meloetta: 359-424 (88.8 - 104.9%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Protean Azelf Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 390-460 (92.8 - 109.5%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Protean Azelf Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Muk-Alola: 235-278 (56.7 - 67.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Protean Azelf U-turn vs. 252 HP / 236+ Def Scream Tail: 107-126 (24.6 - 29%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Life Orb Protean Azelf Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Corviknight: 351-416 (87.9 - 104.2%) -- 25% chance to OHKO

as the calcs demonstrate it still struggles against scream tail but even then its doing a chunk of damage with uturn

 

[ghostlike]

This has been discussed for a while in discord so I want to bring it here.

These two mons have been quite controversial lately. A while ago, the argument for Chien Pao being broken was brought up but at that time, Intimidate Corv was on every team and Intimidate Corv just so happen to check Chien Pao quite well. Now, I think people have a better understanding about Chien Pao: Corv isn't a check. Every time Corv comes in on Chien Pao it is force to roost or it won't be able to come in next time. This is very crucial as Icicle Crash and Crunch each has way more PP than roost so you are force to play more offensively since you can't come in every time to check Chien. Another factor is flinches. Icicle Crash has a very high chance to flinch and since Corv is force to click roost every time, fishing for the flinch is basically free and you only need one flinch to break through. Chien Pao not only has incredible power but also has a blazing speed of 405, faster than most non-boosted mons in the meta rn. Because of that, once it breaks through your "check", the game is pretty much over. The final factor I want to talk about and also the reason why I bring up Gapdos is the synergy. Gapdos is a mon that was introduce through Home. Its Banded SoR set can break through almost every walls in the tier, including the ubiquitous Intimidate Corv. Its only viable "check" is Fluffy and Intimidate Zapdos to a lesser extend. Just so happens, Chien Pao is amazing against those two with Icicle Crash bypassing Fluffy. Chien Pao also has incredible synergy with other mons that can take advantage of Intimidate Corv like Harcanine, Slither Wing,... Also, I just saw Defiant Chien Pao in OMPL so Intimidate Corv is definitely not a good answer into Chien Pao. With all that said, I want Chien Pao to get banned, either quick ban or suspect are ok. Its presence is putting so much restriction on team building and I think it needs to go. After the ban, I also hope the council would look at Gapdos and 2AC.

 

[longhiep341]

DRUMSPAM - THE DRUMPENING

This was what I used to get suspect req. Ursaluna's Speed EVs creep Skeledirge creeping Corv. Glowbro creeps Pex, I forgot what Grimm creeps. Ursaluna does the usual with Punching Glove to bypass Fluffy, Cetitan can also sweep more offensive teams and also force Scream Tail to sac several mons after getting Entrainment. Glowbro is vanilla cause why not, it helps against Dazzling/Psychic Terrain as well and can cause some interesting steals. Charizard takes advantage of revenge killers relying on priority and can also just 6-0 HO if they lead with Prankster and try to Taunt. Zangoose can also take advantage of Scream Tail and other passive Unaware walls in general, with Clear Amulet preventing Intimidate Corv from trying to repeatedly switch in. Is this an optimized HO team? No, running DrumSpam is not as good as something like BH due to the lack of tools like full on Final Gambit to truly lessen counterplays, and stuffs like IronPress can just win if they get to boost. However, this team still feels pretty uninteractive at times, with matchups against standard teams frighteningly good, better than low ELO from my experience getting reqs due to the much higher number of Sash and random sets that threw me off.

Replays showcasing it's not just Ursaluna putting in work

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9almostanyability-1893775560-vhazny75w27hp25ehvj0ocyb224pexnpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9almostanyability-1894239903-8t1gobo3x2jozp5gui0xavd42jipk2npw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9almostanyability-1894262934-bm4lerfdndms0p588xn37rnjglgc2jipw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9almostanyability-1894412328-0rekzmz31iomqz6z09e8eo2ftesac0jpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9almostanyability-1894420732-hosbv1tvhtgxp4zqnzv37ui4c9vgmpppw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9almostanyability-1894711448-935z0km5g7fngd3zkbjvf8pwh6g41i4pw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9almostanyability-1894717641-g8yl1k13a4iyw5kl1ank8728cbenbh8pw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9almostanyability-1894720661-6v9qnmu1roe5fkklf2bz5adfqiq4ruzpw

I did change my opinion a bit regarding Belly Drum. The best thing I should do now is voting to ban Ursaluna, then after that I will make a policy review post if it gets banned, which I believe is also what some other people want like Atha. That will give it more legitimate reasons and Policy Review is a more appropriate place to discuss such matter, so if you have something to say regarding Belly Drum and policy, please do so in my PM and not do it here (or invite me to a group of some sort if this already exists, I will help with the post in that case).

 

[Career Ended]

hey guys ill drop my thoughts about post ursaluna metagame here for a sec.

I think the tier is in a pretty good place, though I've heard a lot of people clamouring for a quick 2AC suspect and I'm not sure thats the route to go, at least wait until OMPL is over and AAA ssnl has run its course. I see the potential in a 2AC meta, it would bring more diversity to team building for sure, but as a whole I feel the meta is very enjoyable. Of course there is one pokemon that I see as problematic currently and that pokemon is....


this thing has very limited counterplay, and I've been trying to highlight that in different channels recently but I'll just stake my claim here while I'm at it. In week 5 of OMPL I was certain Ivar57 would be bringing zamazenta-c so I had to figure out a way to check this pokemon. The primary set Zamazenta-Crowned is running in AAA is just Iron Defense Body press simulator with Heavy slam acting as secondary stab to keep fairy types honest, in particular . stone edge rounds out the set providing great coverage to hit pokemon like , , and . Other options like crunch and substitute are viable, but not as good as stone edge. With it rarely running a move like crunch, I figured any kind of Glowking would do the trick, as long as it was ev'd to take 2 heavy slams after rocks. Here's that calc:
252 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowking-Galar: 154-183 (39 - 46.4%) -- 27% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock .
this calc is kinda of scary because even with max defense investment, with a little minor chip or if you let your glow get knocked, you're not a very sturdy check. Thankfully Fluffy solves this issue, but it just goes to show that Zama-C requires specialized counterplay. Though the meta hasn't seemingly adapted to prepare for Zamac yet, I expect it to quickly adjust as things like fluffy corviknight + revenge killer (its hard to revenge zamac since its so physically bulky, typically have to rely on scarf fires / grounds / electric types) and just fluffy ghosts in general become more popular in order to keep it in check. other stuff like regen and just critting through it with , and are savvy options that I see people running around with.

here are some replays of Zama-c doing funny things
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9almostanyability-1881365313 so MZ's plan into Zamac is to volt switch chip it with his two electric types so that sacred sword can KO ( 252 Atk Choice Band Sword of Ruin Chien-Pao Sacred Sword vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 276-326 (84.9 - 100.3%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO) though in this game Shiloh (Volknerd) is running much more defense on his zamac (between 116-140 evs IIRC). unfortunately MZ has bigger problems like ursaluna to deal with and by the time ZamaC finally comes in, it completely wins the game. However MZ crits it and prevents it from getting the final 2 kills.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9almostanyability-696640
can't all be good ones. TNM brings Cresselia which hard walls Zamac lacking crunch.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9almostanyability-1887199467
MZ on the receiving end once again ;_;. Atha is a little too liberal with his body presses once Zamac comes in, hoping to catch Goodra-H on the dragon tail or a hard switch to regieleki turn 46, and allows the Lando-t to chip it down with earthquake. At this point MZ is forced to sack one pokemon, then goes to Eleki and since VS doesn't kill, ends up sacking another one. After this Eleki can revenge it.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9almostanyability-697925
TNM brings in Zamac early on a double but with moth at full health decides to preserve it for later, burning the DS boost. He's able to get it in for relatively free on Muk, leading to a corv sac to defog the rocks, since nothing on Tier's team can take body press -> stone edge or +2 body press into -1 Stone edge. Later, Zama-c gets in on Muk again. Kilowattrel isn't able to 2hko zamac even with the minor chip its taken, dies to a stone edge and the rest of Tier's team is dismantled.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9almostanyability-699278
Ivar's Zama-c does nothing, because it was hard prepped for here. Fluffy GKing FS + Chilly reception into Eleki to Chip means it has to rely on teammates in order to make any progress.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9almostanyability-698792
Tier has Sacred sword Chien Pao and his own Zamac (which isn't max speed?) as his counterplay so Osake's Zamac start doing the funny things.

I'd also like to point out that the only 2 weeks stall has been brought (Verizzions week 4, Tyrants week 6) the stall team was HARD 6-0d by Zamac. Luckily no Zama-c into stall so stall is 2-0.

Anyways as far as the metagame has been advanced since Home has dropped, I feel like we're finding more counterplay for Zama-c, so I'm a little bit unsure of a Quickban, but I'd definitely like to hear other peoples opinions. It's definitely a headache of a pokemon to prepare for in the builder. As far as other stuff goes, outside of and maybeeee I really don't think anything is too unhealthy. I think is strong but not really strong enough to be considered bannable ATM with corv on every team and with more reasonable counterplay, like the common , than the other previously mentioned pokemon. I think a switching to 2AC is too big of a change RN and a little time is needed to gauge the metagame growth. Any ability unbans at this time would probably be a bit hasty, though could be considerable in the future. I still think stuff like Opulse and Stakeout are too strong, but I've seen people argue that they could be tested. I don't think Triage is a problem and I really couldn't think of anything else to touch on, so I'll end this post here. Looking forward to seeing what people bring against us in playoffs. Go tyrants.

 

[SeannyE]

I'm starting to become quite certain that Triage counterplay is becoming centralizing, and the counterplay against it is limiting.

When sets like Dazzling Moon & Chien-Pao have started to pickup popularity for having the sole purpose of sacrificing an ability slot to counter a strategy running rampant in the metagame, it disturbs the "peace" of this metagame.

Imagine for a second that a hole has erupted in your living room ceiling. Oh No! Within this big, broken whole, a single pipe sticks out, like in a cartoon. This pipe begins filling up your living room. Thinking quickly you grab some duct-tape and tape over the entire mouth of the pipe. Hooray! You fixed the leak! That giant hole in your ceiling feels inconsequential now, right?

When we liken the duct tape to a Dazzling/Queenly Majesty mon, we all know what were protecting against; Its not Mach Punch Breloom, its not Scizor's bullet punch, and its not even E-Speed H-Arcanine. A vast majority of the player base knows at preview that the Ursaluna/Chesnaught/Hatterene/Enamorus/ETC is going to have triage, and the level of checking against a +3 move is impossible currently without your own triage Pokémon, or a focus sashed team member which may have the possibility of scoring an OHKO against the now fully healed mon after you had to sac something to get it in safe.

Other more niche solutions exist, like psychic surge mons such as Armarogue have limited success, and can be worked around with multiple strategies like: Screens + Triage, Hazards + Triage, even Ice Spinner which is common on the treads and Hilligant which brief the tier in certain team comps are typically always running it as coverage; the scale between risk and reward tips greatly into the Triage user's favor.

With having to already expect one of these many Pokémon, which each can fit into teams quite flexibly, triage, with a balanced +3 to priority, becomes an issue that duct tape mons cannot fit anymore.

 

[LordBox]

I'm starting to become quite certain that Triage counterplay is becoming centralizing, and the counterplay against it is limiting.

When sets like Dazzling Moon & Chien-Pao have started to pickup popularity for having the sole purpose of sacrificing an ability slot to counter a strategy running rampant in the metagame, it disturbs the "peace" of this metagame.

Imagine for a second that a hole has erupted in your living room ceiling. Oh No! Within this big, broken whole, a single pipe sticks out, like in a cartoon. This pipe begins filling up your living room. Thinking quickly you grab some duct-tape and tape over the entire mouth of the pipe. Hooray! You fixed the leak! That giant hole in your ceiling feels inconsequential now, right?

When we liken the duct tape to a Dazzling/Queenly Majesty mon, we all know what were protecting against; Its not Mach Punch Breloom, its not Scizor's bullet punch, and its not even E-Speed H-Arcanine. A vast majority of the player base knows at preview that the Ursaluna/Chesnaught/Hatterene/Enamorus/ETC is going to have triage, and the level of checking against a +3 move is impossible currently without your own triage Pokémon, or a focus sashed team member which may have the possibility of scoring an OHKO against the now fully healed mon after you had to sac something to get it in safe.

Other more niche solutions exist, like psychic surge mons such as Armarogue have limited success, and can be worked around with multiple strategies like: Screens + Triage, Hazards + Triage, even Ice Spinner which is common on the treads and Hilligant which brief the tier in certain team comps are typically always running it as coverage; the scale between risk and reward tips greatly into the Triage user's favor.

With having to already expect one of these many Pokémon, which each can fit into teams quite flexibly, triage, with a balanced +3 to priority, becomes an issue that duct tape mons cannot fit anymore.
View attachment 531584

Regarding this...

1. Dazzling Roaring Moon and Chien-Pao are not sets that are at all really gaining much traction. They've been around as sets since during the FurScales era I believe? And I haven't seen a single Dazzling Roaring Moon in ages and Dazzling Chien is really a waste of a Chien-Pao compared to CB SoR and is thus rare because....

2. Counterplay to Triage (as a somewhat whole) is not as rare you put it here. The RegenVest mons themselves beat the special Triage mons fairly handily although Hatterene is annoying for Meloetta. Unaware as an entire ability also completely nullifies Triage since the weak base power of the moves they abuse (and lack of a real boosting ability) means they're reliant on setup, and has great usage outside of just Triage. Otherwise there is also just using resists into the individuals abusers since there are aren't that many actually good ones since Ursaluna has been banned. Zapdos can beat Chesnaught even behind screens, Hatterene/Enam can suffer into mons that can take a DKiss and kill it back with SE or powerful enough attacks (Cinderace, Heatran, Gambit).

Could you still make an argument to ban Triage? Sure, but it's not because counterplay is so limited to just the Dazzling options. Psysurge is also a fine answer (even if they're not great options) because no one is running Ice Spinner to support Triage mons because Psysurge is already rare and Ice Spinner is a bad move. The uncontested "speed" it provides can make it kind of cheesy and somewhat force more defensive counterplay (or sometimes Dazzling), is an argument I could perhaps get behind.

However, there's a reason people are looking at Belly Drum more than Triage even despite the fact it's restricted by policy (and some people wish to change it). It's because when you use a Triage mon, you have a somewhat legit usage as speed control and fine enough setup that is somewhat usable on balance, although I don't use it personally (see CM Triage mons which are mostly fine and the main reason a Triage ban hasn't picked up much steam). Whenever you use Belly Drum however you are doing nothing but fishing for a cheesy 6-0 given you only have 1 chance (or at the very best, 2) to go for it and need significant support and the immense payoff that can even let Slowbro fish for a 6-0 against some unprepared teams.

 

[Isaiah]

(In case you didn't know, Ursaluna is banned now)

JULY MINI SURVEY TIME

You know the drill. Share what you think about the meta! Will be up for at least 1 week.

>> Click for survey <<​

 

[Don Vascus]

Now that the big bear is gone (gn sweet princess) its time for me to post the tech ive been cooking while you were playing with matchup fish



Ursaluna (F) @ Life Orb
Ability: Magic Guard
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 108 HP / 252 Atk / 148 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Double-Edge
- Earthquake
- Fire Punch
- Swords Dance

MGLO Ursa is kind of like the Turboblaze Ursaluna I have posted before that trades in the ability to beat EE Dirge for having a better button to press and more longevity. This goes around TurboUrsa's weakness of being somewhat easy to switch around by having double edge not only deal more damage, but also not have any drawback nor flying types be immune to it. You can try to hard switch around it so that it doesnt SD, but doing so might result on it clicking double edge and getting a lot of dmg or straight up a KO. Its a guaranteed ohko on Av meloetta and basically every offensive mon that isnt straight up immune to it, and of course the higher damage also affects the matchup against more defensive mons. +1 Fire Punch into Edge is a guaranteed KO on corv, and Edge does 50 minimum to Big Jigglypuff. You also deal about as much damage to fluffy lando as it does to you when unboosted, and being slow here was actually of use because it meant lando couldnt pivot for free. Bear can 1v1 basically anything, but has to use its Hp to do so most of the time, which means after doing that it can be tough to keep making it work with hazards up in regular circumstances. Magic guard giving it immunity to Hazards means that it can still enter the field given pivoting and click double edge after their main switchins has been dealt with by itself.

Ursa could be more than a matchup cheese, it could also be a matchup consistent. You guys just were blinded by the cheese smh


Edit:dream eater is a tech for comatose Gengar, can we free it now?

 

[Isaiah]

Now that the big bear is gone (gn sweet princess) its time for me to post the tech ive been cooking while you were playing with matchup fish



Ursaluna (F) @ Life Orb
Ability: Magic Guard
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 108 HP / 252 Atk / 148 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Double-Edge
- Dream Eater
- Fire Punch
- Swords Dance

MGLO Ursa is kind of like the Turboblaze Ursaluna I have posted before that trades in the ability to beat EE Dirge for having a better button to press and more longevity. This goes around TurboUrsa's weakness of being somewhat easy to switch around by having double edge not only deal more damage, but also not have any drawback nor flying types be immune to it. You can try to hard switch around it so that it doesnt SD, but doing so might result on it clicking double edge and getting a lot of dmg or straight up a KO. Its a guaranteed ohko on Av meloetta and basically every offensive mon that isnt straight up immune to it, and of course the higher damage also affects the matchup against more defensive mons. +1 Fire Punch into Edge is a guaranteed KO on corv, and Edge does 50 minimum to Big Jigglypuff. You also deal about as much damage to fluffy lando as it does to you when unboosted, and being slow here was actually of use because it meant lando couldnt pivot for free. Bear can 1v1 basically anything, but has to use its Hp to do so most of the time, which means after doing that it can be tough to keep making it work with hazards up in regular circumstances. Magic guard giving it immunity to Hazards means that it can still enter the field given pivoting and click double edge after their main switchins has been dealt with by itself.

Ursa could be more than a matchup cheese, it could also be a matchup consistent. You guys just were blinded by the cheese smh

Dream Eater, huh...I certainly hadn't thought of that