Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v2 [Update on Post #5186]

[JunkoAJ]

Reading the PR thread is fascinating - a lot of valid takes and discussions, no aggression, no ad hominems, just actual discussion with civil reactions to someone disagreeing. Can't wait for that to absolutely NOT be the case in the public thread.

Anyway, how do people feel about Zama-H now the dust has cleared since its suspect? Does anyone still find it problematic or is it at a good place in the meta now?

 

[SpritePony]

Reading the PR thread is fascinating - a lot of valid takes and discussions, no aggression, no ad hominems, just actual discussion with civil reactions to someone disagreeing. Can't wait for that to absolutely NOT be the case in the public thread.

Anyway, how do people feel about Zama-H now the dust has cleared since its suspect? Does anyone still find it problematic or is it at a good place in the meta now?

I'm still not a fan of it. It's absurdly scary, and if I don't have my Dirge, then I hope to god I have my Flame Body mon available. Of course, Bozo and Quag also work, but Dirge is my most commonly used Unaware mon.

 

[Fenghuang]

I think zama-H is fairly healthy right now, but I'm unsure if unbanning it was needed.

 

[Alternator]

I think zama-H is fairly healthy right now, but I'm unsure if unbanning it was needed.

The default is "include everything possible while maintaining a healthy metagame" and as such, there doesn't need to be a special reason to unban it - there needs to be a reason to keep it banned. That's why the OU Council dropped Magearna, despite the widespread belief that it'd be busted: they weren't sure that it needed to stay banned, and so it was tested out.

 

[bigasschungusboi]

Reading the PR thread is fascinating - a lot of valid takes and discussions, no aggression, no ad hominems, just actual discussion with civil reactions to someone disagreeing. Can't wait for that to absolutely NOT be the case in the public thread.

Anyway, how do people feel about Zama-H now the dust has cleared since its suspect? Does anyone still find it problematic or is it at a good place in the meta now?

Zama didn't need a suspect in the first place, super glad it survived the test

 

[Alternator]

and this is my cue to mention giratina-a

+2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tera Water Giratina: 297-351 (58.9 - 69.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

That's a neutral hit from max investment, five allies dead, +2 Kingambit; the Ubers set defaults to Fairy on the calculator, but that dies horribly to Iron Head, so I think an OU Giratina would prefer Water.

252 Atk Choice Band Meowscarada Flower Trick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tera Water Giratina on a critical hit: 290-344 (57.5 - 68.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Tera-Water can eat a Flower Trick off Banded Meowscarada.

252 SpA Zapdos Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Tera Water Giratina: 246-290 (48.8 - 57.5%) -- 95.3% chance to 2HKO

Tera-Water can eat a Thunderbolt from offensive Zapdos.


Few teams would carry more than one, maybe two, mons that can actually break a Resttalk Giratina. It's just too bulky.

 

[bigasschungusboi]

This further proves that Gerry must be added to the metagame for stabilization, Tier is in dire need of insane defense to counteract mind-boggling offense

 

[awyp]

So I'm curious what's the councils opinion on Quick Claw action since after the survey results?

Quick Claw teams have become popular. Only 33.7% of the whole playerbase wants to ban Quick Claw, but 55.2% of qualified players do. This is a substantial difference and we will continue to monitor the topic.

Doesn't say much

 

[Wapf]

This further proves that Gerry must be added to the metagame for stabilization, Tier is in dire need of insane defense to counteract mind-boggling offense

Yeah idk why having gambit and specs valiant killing the entire tier and shit like luna having legit 0 switchins is okay but a mon that can take tons of hits isn’t okay.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

+2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tera Water Giratina: 297-351 (58.9 - 69.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

That's a neutral hit from max investment, five allies dead, +2 Kingambit; the Ubers set defaults to Fairy on the calculator, but that dies horribly to Iron Head, so I think an OU Giratina would prefer Water.

252 Atk Choice Band Meowscarada Flower Trick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tera Water Giratina on a critical hit: 290-344 (57.5 - 68.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Tera-Water can eat a Flower Trick off Banded Meowscarada.

252 SpA Zapdos Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Tera Water Giratina: 246-290 (48.8 - 57.5%) -- 95.3% chance to 2HKO

Tera-Water can eat a Thunderbolt from offensive Zapdos.


Few teams would carry more than one, maybe two, mons that can actually break a Resttalk Giratina. It's just too bulky.

ting-lu takes less damage from all of the above without even needing to tera. as a matter of fact, ting-lu's defensive bulk is actually better than gira-a's physically and, thanks to vessel of ruin, effectively not much less specially. "sheer mixed bulk" is no longer a reason to keep giratina out. nor is "sheer mixed bulk + decent attacking stat", because ting-lu's attack is also better than gira-a's attacking stats.

i would also like to reiterate that all i'm calling for is a test, in the future, post-dlcs, with less priority than any tiering action that's currently being discussed, which is absolutely no excuse for the foaming-at-the-mouth genuine hatred i've gotten for the position (someone actually sent me a death threat on discord over this). the likelihood of gira-a being broken is very real and i am fully prepared to vote to keep it banned if that turns out to be the case, but we will never know whether or not it will be the case unless we actually run a test. if you truly believe gira-a to be broken beyond a shadow of a doubt, and you believe this to be obvious, why not test it to have empirical evidence and shut up the doubters for good?

 

[kosecant]

Yeah idk why having gambit and specs valiant killing the entire tier and shit like luna having legit 0 switchins is okay but a mon that can take tons of hits isn’t okay.

Defensive power creep can paradoxically make offense even harder to deal with, as only the absolute best breakers become viable which makes the broken defensive mons the only thing viable. Introducing stronger threats on either end create a feedback loop of needing stronger Pokémon to deal with the new threat.

 

[Talpr0ne]

ting-lu takes less damage from all of the above without even needing to tera. as a matter of fact, ting-lu's defensive bulk is actually better than gira-a's physically and, thanks to vessel of ruin, effectively not much less specially. "sheer mixed bulk" is no longer a reason to keep giratina out. nor is "sheer mixed bulk + decent attacking stat", because ting-lu's attack is also better than gira-a's attacking stats.

i would also like to reiterate that all i'm calling for is a test, in the future, post-dlcs, with less priority than any tiering action that's currently being discussed, which is absolutely no excuse for the foaming-at-the-mouth genuine hatred i've gotten for the position (someone actually sent me a death threat on discord over this). the likelihood of gira-a being broken is very real and i am fully prepared to vote to keep it banned if that turns out to be the case, but we will never know whether or not it will be the case unless we actually run a test. if you truly believe gira-a to be broken beyond a shadow of a doubt, and you believe this to be obvious, why not test it to have empirical evidence and shut up the doubters for good?

Ting-Lu can't set up.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

Ting-Lu can't set up.

if alternator had mentioned that, i would have addressed it

 

[Mega Breloom]

So I'm curious what's the councils opinion on Quick Claw action since after the survey results?



Doesn't say much

What I get from that they aren't doing anything about QC for now since the community showed more interest on action on other topics.

 

[Magcargo]

NGL, considering how strong TIng-Lu is, Giratina-A being unbanned may be a bit much, esp since they can do a wombo combo to stop any hazard removers like Tusks, Treads, etc.

On the flipside, our tier is down bad for defoggers and Giratina-A could possibly be the hero we need against the hazard epidemic, reliably getting them off the field and cooking Gholdengo with its higher speed Shadow Ball.

 

[Finchinator]

So I'm curious what's the councils opinion on Quick Claw action since after the survey results?



Doesn't say much

Not conclusive enough to justify acting before Tera

 

[Mega Breloom]

NGL, considering how strong TIng-Lu is, Giratina-A being unbanned may be a bit much, esp since they can do a wombo combo to stop any hazard removers like Tusks, Treads, etc.

On the flipside, our tier is down bad for defoggers and Giratina-A could possibly be the hero we need against the hazard epidemic, reliably getting them off the field and cooking Gholdengo with its higher speed Shadow Ball.

The issue with Giratina is that is super bulky and has the same special attack than Pult for no reason, while Ting-Lu also has a great attack stat shadow ball is more spamable while WoW covers the few switch ins that can take it. For me it is again the same argumment as "allow Mag in the tier for the AV sets" when people are going to use the busted sets more often than the ones that the tier needs.

 

[KamenOH]

If we do bring GirA down, whats stopping us from unbanning the mons banned due to Tera, per

Defensive power creep can paradoxically make offense even harder to deal with, as only the absolute best breakers become viable which makes the broken defensive mons the only thing viable. Introducing stronger threats on either end create a feedback loop of needing stronger Pokémon to deal with the new threat.

this reasoning, as well as the fact that the power level of gen 9 just seems to be intrinsically higher than gens prior?

 

[kosecant]

If we do bring GirA down, whats stopping us from unbanning the mons banned due to Tera, per this reasoning, as well as the fact that the power level of gen 9 just seems to be intrinsically higher than gens prior?

For me it’s the same reason I dislike toxapex, it’s presence makes super strong breakers mandatory, which makes them seem healthier than they probably are. but because the burden of proof is higher for defensive mons it’s unlikely it’ll be looked into much

 

[veti]

Giratina-A could possibly be the hero we need against the hazard epidemic

Well yeah it would solve the hazard problem with it's defog, however Giratina is an even better spinblocker than Gholdengo and it's a broken threat and it would centralize the metagame around itself, because it would pretty much invalidate Great Tusk as hazard removal. Bringing down Giratina to deal with hazards is like bringing down Zacian Crowned to deal with Magearna.

 

[SpritePony]

Reasons why GirA is better than Ting-Lu:
-GirA can spin block naturally (outside of Mortal Spin).
-GirA can cripple opposing Pokemon. Ting-Lu can't.
-GirA can set up.
-GirA has better speed and more rounded offenses.
-GirA has a dumb amount of coverage.
-GirA can Defog.
-Ghost/Dragon is far more spammable than Ground/Dark.
-GirA can easily PP stall with Pressure.

Reasons why Ting-Lu is better than GirA:
-Ting-Lu can set up hazards.
-Ting-Lu has Taunt. Albeit a slow Taunt, but still a Taunt.
-Ting-Lu stops offensive Prankster shenanigans.
-Ting-Lu has better raw physical power.
-Ting-Lu has an HP-halving move (Ruination).
-Ting-Lu has comparable defenses, after Vessel of Ruin.

Generally speaking, GirA is a far superior bulky Pokemon than Ting-Lu. Having GirA would also push the meme narrative of Council favoring Big Stall. Like, good Goomy, man... Picture trying to break Stall when they have GirA on the bench.

 

[Athyestic]

. Like, good Goomy, man... Picture trying to break Stall when they have GirA on the bench.

I think Stall would actually be Giratina-O's weakest iteration, mostly because you need rest on Stall Gira A and if you're using it for Defog as well you sort of run out of moveslots.
On more offensive teams? Arceus help us. Now it can simply rely on its titantic bulk like Ting-Lu could but it also can slot CM and become a wincon.

 

[SpritePony]

I think Stall would actually be Giratina-O's weakest iteration, mostly because you need rest on Stall Gira A and if you're using it for Defog as well you sort of run out of moveslots.
On more offensive teams? Arceus help us. Now it can simply rely on its titantic bulk like Ting-Lu could but it also can slot CM and become a wincon.

Counterpoint: Hell Bell Blissey is legal again. You can use GirA for a spin blocker, have Rest + Defog + 2 other moves if you want, or even a more offensive spin blocker GirA in Stall.

 

[Alternator]

ting-lu takes less damage from all of the above without even needing to tera. as a matter of fact, ting-lu's defensive bulk is actually better than gira-a's physically and, thanks to vessel of ruin, effectively not much less specially. "sheer mixed bulk" is no longer a reason to keep giratina out. nor is "sheer mixed bulk + decent attacking stat", because ting-lu's attack is also better than gira-a's attacking stats.

i would also like to reiterate that all i'm calling for is a test, in the future, post-dlcs, with less priority than any tiering action that's currently being discussed, which is absolutely no excuse for the foaming-at-the-mouth genuine hatred i've gotten for the position (someone actually sent me a death threat on discord over this). the likelihood of gira-a being broken is very real and i am fully prepared to vote to keep it banned if that turns out to be the case, but we will never know whether or not it will be the case unless we actually run a test. if you truly believe gira-a to be broken beyond a shadow of a doubt, and you believe this to be obvious, why not test it to have empirical evidence and shut up the doubters for good?

The list of mons that can break Rest / Sleep Talk / Calm Mind / (Attack of choice) Giratina-A is about as long as the list that can switch into Chi-Yu: they exist, but there are far too few options for either mon to be healthy.

Real talk, how does stall handle it without crippling its other match-ups? Pressure means Calm Mind alone outlasts Haze, Resttalk denies poison and other steady chip, phazing won't help in a last mon situation, does stall need to go double Haze?

 

[RoyalDispenser]

Giratina-A behind Screens.

...Now tell me how you feel about it.

Zama was barely kept OU cause it doesn't have enough tools to take advantage of its stats, it has overtuned stats across the board and I really despise the increased speed creep that's been happening over the years to the point base 100 without a scarf feels slow now, but regardless zama doesn't take full advantage out of its stats especially with its lack of recovery and mostly being a physical wall. I still ain't sold its healthy in the tier but its here so have to live with it, its mostly the speed tier that pisses me off cause its way too fast for how fat it is.

Giratina-A is a lot more refined, it has status (will-o-wisp), setup (calm mind), has WAY higher bulk in 150/120/120 compared to zama's 92/115/115, full coverage moves, and has a lot more roles especially being good on stall and offense while zama is mostly just offense.

I would argue Giratina-O is safer than Giratina-A cause;

1: can't hold an item. Sure orb makes its STABs hurt more but it ain't like other mons don't one shot the tier anyways.

2: lower bulk, giratina-O is 150/100/100, 40 BST worth of bulk missing which makes it seem WAY more killable, at least closer to zama's numbers. Reality is if you're switching anything into giratina, its going to get 2HKO'd by either form, so at least having a better chance to kill it sounds more reasonable.

3: levitate prevents it from pressure stalling all your PP, even if it was bulk enough. Granted idk how broken tera electric giratina becomes doing this but at least you can potentially out stall it.

4: there was an april fools joke suspect in generation 6 that had giratina-O in it rather than giratina-A, what's funny is some of the post were clearly playing along the joke, but there were a few arguments not getting the joke and actually going in-depth at some point in the thread, leaning on it still being overwhelming but not as overwhelming as you'd first expect.

And I still wouldn't want to see that drop down.