please stop being emphatically wrong in this thread and for the love of god please finish reading the original post
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Metagame Terastallization Tiering Discussion, Part II [CLOSED FOR DLC]
- Thread starter Finchinator
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Exactly what I was saying about their post, since permanent OMs in that vein typically don't last long. Take dream world or the no scald ladder for example.
However, having a tera suspect ladder have no tera to give players an idea of what a meta without tera seems like before the vote is a reasonable compromise I believe since I think having the suspect ladder be like that gives players an accurate view of both sides of the coin as far as a meta with or without tera to form their own opinions. I wonder what finch or the rest of the council would think of this idea?
No, we have two ladders. And the Terastal Power stays forever.
KamenOH
formerly DynamaxBestMeta
So Tera is banned from OU.
Ok but we are talking about what happens to the tier that matters the most
OU is the most important tier on Showdown, period. Banning it from OU is banning it from the majority of players' appetite, and throwing it into a side mode is not a compromise, that is an absolute win entirely for anti Tera, and a complete loss for pro Tera.
cyberacc
formerly Suckingmoreducks
You are taking my point twisting it and running a mile with it and getting into the semantics of "let's use X clearly broken piece of shit garbage as an example" is wholly pedantic.
I don't disagree at all with your stances since a ban on Tera would have been clean and concise in tiering. The thing is that this is highly unlikely to happen in CG let alone when this tier becomes old gen OU; There is not enough support to force super majority. May as well make the options clear for why you left the tier behind to begin with and force tiering action by not partaking in all of this meandering and bickering.
There's really only three options: Try to get a complex solution to work like TB ban or Tera Preview (I don't care about this what so ever since now you can hover over their Tera and realize how you're going to lose on Preview or win on Preview which ruins the beauty in predicting) Banning Tera (wholly unrealistic in spite of my opinion of it being better, CG playerbase wants to keep it) or not playing the tier all together and force the playerbase that is active to fix their tier on their terms.
I agree with this idea of having no Tera in the ladder, so players can form their own opinions. But what if they do like the play without Tera, but don’t want to get rid of the generational mechanic? I’ll let you know now that the number of people who feel this way are more than you think. Then what will they do?
If need be, we reverse it and make an OM without Tera that is permanent. Same proposal, but switched places. Or we could have two ladders, one with Tera and one without. BOTH are OU. One is Tera OU, and the other is Gimmickless OU. The thing about this proposal is that the terms can be adjusted if need be. If you payed attention to what Finch said that “Please share your thoughts on Terastallization and the best way to proceed in this thread. Thank you”, which strongly implies that this disscusion is good for brainstorming. Sp why not put more ideas on the table, and see what people like? Also, last time I checked, the most important and played tier is Random Battles.
I know a lot of people feel that way, but its worth trying as it definitely helps people form more concrete opinions.
Also, I know a ton of people want to keep tera but take action, but honestly if we choose to take action and don't know how to take it then what do we do? Because we can't just sit on our ass and do nothing at that point since we would decide to take action. I guess at that point it would have to be left to the council finding more potential solutions.
I do believe action may be taken, but if people can't decide it would likely be left to the council at that point...
If action is taken, this is gonna be an absolute mess since no one can agree on anything
Yes, I’m saying it is worth trying. That is completely different from what I’m pointing out. My point is that my previous proposal can make both worlds if that ends up being what majority wants. I’m personally Anti-Tera, but I also love the aspect of trying things for myself before I make a concrete decision. If we had two ladders and one doesn’t get support, it was still worth trying, it’s not that hard to close the ladder and move from there. In addition having one ladder close actually shows what players are more interested in. If the Tera/gimmickless ladder gets shut down, we know that majority preferred the other one.
I agree that a complex restriction isn't ideal but I think it's more likely to happen than full ban and would be better for the game than no action - Lose to RU? summed up this position very well in an earlier post. I'd rather see the mechanic improved than choose to stop playing the tier all together. Sleep Clause if it were added today would be considered a "complex ban" or "arbitrary nerf" so I wouldn't discount gutting this mechanic. I think it's a little silly to gut the mechanic into basically being a completely different mechanic, but if it's a satisfactory compromise it may be our best option
I believe the best way to handle the issue of "people want action but no one can agree what action would be best" would be the voting structure I suggested earlier in the thread:
Everyone who qualifies answers 3 yes/no questions on one ballot:
-Should Tera Types be shown at Team Preview? Yes/No
-Should Tera Blast be banned? Yes/No
-Should Tera as a whole be banned? Yes/No
This way only popular restrictions are the ones passed, and people can vote for the ones they think would improve the tier without fear of unintended consequences (ie people who favor preview voting for no action because they don't wan a full ban) and puts every possibility on the table without encouraging "strategic" or "pragmatic" voting.
Maybe add Light Clay to the list of questions since I believe it's very intertwined with "Tera offering too many free turns with no drawback" but a lot of people don't see it as related. Unfortunately this structure doesn't answer the question of what the suspect ladder would look like however
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I'd love to see a test ladder for Tera Preview(since until we play that mode it's mostly just theorymon), but they haven't done an alternate test ladder in generations IIRC. Honestly, the best move for individuals is probably to start playing off-ladder games with friends where you both nickname your mons with their tera type or refuse to tera and see how it plays out, but that's not exactly going to be representative of how the ladder as a whole will work.
My thoughts as a whole: There's 2 generational mechanics I'm reminded of, Dynamax and Gen V perma-weather. Dynamax was outright banned for being awful, and it really hurt the generation as a whole(even though it was 100% necessary). Perma-Weather went through a DECADE of bans, complex bans, nerfs, and new strats, all to no avail. It was maybe the most permanently unbalanced meta in our history. It should have been outright banned, and that gen suffered for it.
I'd really like to avoid both of those outcomes. So no, let's not just insta-ban Tera. But if we try Tera Preview(my preferred current solution) and it doesn't work, let's not waste more time after that and just ban it. I'd rather not be debating Tera nerfs every 6 months from now until Gen X drops.
My thoughts as a whole: There's 2 generational mechanics I'm reminded of, Dynamax and Gen V perma-weather. Dynamax was outright banned for being awful, and it really hurt the generation as a whole(even though it was 100% necessary). Perma-Weather went through a DECADE of bans, complex bans, nerfs, and new strats, all to no avail. It was maybe the most permanently unbalanced meta in our history. It should have been outright banned, and that gen suffered for it.
I'd really like to avoid both of those outcomes. So no, let's not just insta-ban Tera. But if we try Tera Preview(my preferred current solution) and it doesn't work, let's not waste more time after that and just ban it. I'd rather not be debating Tera nerfs every 6 months from now until Gen X drops.
This pretty much sums up my thoughts as a whole. I'm not an OU player by any means, I haven't touched the ladder since Gen 7, but seeing as the results of this decision will have a ripple effect that applies to all metagames, I feel like I should put in my two cents.
I agree that, given the choice between strictly ban or no ban, most people will choose no ban, because although most people are in favor of some form of restriction on Tera, their takes are far more nuanced than outright banning it and they would rather see the unique mechanic of the generation stay in place. I think that the point of Dynamax being banned hurting Gen 8 metas (although I do understand and agree it was 100% completely necessary) should be taken into account. We are looking at making changes to what is the generation defining mechanic and should absolutely tread lightly to make sure that we do not kill off interest in the 6v6 singles format entirely.
I do like the idea of having a separate suspect test ladder, because I think forcing people to play the game with the proposed Tera restrictions (types shown at preview, TB banned, both, fully banned, whatever) will only have a positive effect on the discussion and allow people to have more concrete reasoning to back up their thoughts and opinions on the matter.
Personally, I do think Tera should remain entirely unrestricted, but I am aware that this is a fringe opinion and is unlikely to happen, and out of the reasonable, possible options, I think that showing types at preview is the best option. VGC has done it and it's worked to some degree, and I agree that it changes the question of "What Tera will they use?" to "When will they Tera?", eliminating much of the guesswork and making it more akin to something like Z-Moves (not quite, but just drawing a comparison for the sake of it).
with an update come out 2 months ago i only see boots, spikes, cheesy screens and stalls
the only "new archetype" i have seen was the meme quick claw team, no skill in that
u rise the skill cap by banning a variable called tera and stop team being composed by a spiker + dengo + 4 pokemon with setup moves hoping your opponents doesn't have an answer
i have suggested a playstest/alternative ladder too just for seeing the game with no tera at all; that would help a lot if a suspect will ever take place
if there can be a ladder for an already dead metagame like freedom cup i don't see the issue to create a playtest ladder with tera banned
What are some things you'd like out of an OU meta that the current OU doesn't provide? Outside of screens, none of the problems you listed have much to do with Tera -- and screens are hardly a mechanic introduced this generation. Almost every new mon in gen 9 will be good without Tera. Spikes will still be a problem. And Stall is definitely not on the classic list of Bad Tera Abusers.
Like, this isn't even a gotcha. I have absolutely no idea what the anti-tera crowd thinks will change about the format, that will also improve the format. Kingambit is a problem, with or without Tera, and is having an increasingly centralizing effect on the format. Even if you get a full Tera ban, OU would be better off without the bastard. But past that? It looks pretty good to me!
I know this idea got squashed really early on in SV’s history, but since it seems likely the second suspect will go the same way as the first, I think creating a no-Tera OU ladder should seriously be considered.
There’s clearly a large group of people who don’t like Tera. Honestly, I bet there’s a lot of folks who don’t like Tera but still wouldn’t vote ban because of reservations about banning a generational gimmick. I mean, just look at all the Tera Preview folks. Anyway, I’m someone who mainly sticks to Pet Mods, and opinions on Tera are a lot more clear-cut there. Tera drastically limits submissions since detrimental typings can no longer really be used as a downside for a mon, and makes balancing significantly more difficult because basically any sweeper can become problematic with Tera. Because of that, most Gen 9 mods have banned Tera, which has given me the unique opportunity to play SV metas without Tera, and let me just say, the difference is such a breath of fresh air. Playing early Vaporemons was pretty insane, since even with very few winning submissions to play around with in the first few slates, the meta still felt drastically different and way more open to creative building, since you no longer have to prepare checks for every top meta threat and their 5 form changes. Not to mention, we’ve had Volcarona, Espathra, and Regieleki unbanned since slate 1, and they are resoundingly not broken.
Anyway, my point is that I personally have had so much more fun playing SV OU metas without Tera than ones with it, and I’m sure I’m not alone in that mentality. A no-Tera ladder would totally solve this problem while still allowing Tera in base OU. It’s not like this has never been done before either—I exclusively played no-Dynamax randbats last gen, and I never had trouble finding a battle. If anyone else agrees or has any reservations about this idea, please do let me know. I’m curious what current thoughts on the idea are.
There’s clearly a large group of people who don’t like Tera. Honestly, I bet there’s a lot of folks who don’t like Tera but still wouldn’t vote ban because of reservations about banning a generational gimmick. I mean, just look at all the Tera Preview folks. Anyway, I’m someone who mainly sticks to Pet Mods, and opinions on Tera are a lot more clear-cut there. Tera drastically limits submissions since detrimental typings can no longer really be used as a downside for a mon, and makes balancing significantly more difficult because basically any sweeper can become problematic with Tera. Because of that, most Gen 9 mods have banned Tera, which has given me the unique opportunity to play SV metas without Tera, and let me just say, the difference is such a breath of fresh air. Playing early Vaporemons was pretty insane, since even with very few winning submissions to play around with in the first few slates, the meta still felt drastically different and way more open to creative building, since you no longer have to prepare checks for every top meta threat and their 5 form changes. Not to mention, we’ve had Volcarona, Espathra, and Regieleki unbanned since slate 1, and they are resoundingly not broken.
Anyway, my point is that I personally have had so much more fun playing SV OU metas without Tera than ones with it, and I’m sure I’m not alone in that mentality. A no-Tera ladder would totally solve this problem while still allowing Tera in base OU. It’s not like this has never been done before either—I exclusively played no-Dynamax randbats last gen, and I never had trouble finding a battle. If anyone else agrees or has any reservations about this idea, please do let me know. I’m curious what current thoughts on the idea are.
Perma Weather being a so called "generational mechanic" is a great example of how "generational mechanics" are subjective and not a real thing worth placing importance on or tiering differently. I would argue Wonder Launcher is the so called "Generational Gimmick" of gen 5 not permaweather, these weather abilities have already existed, Gen 5 just had the combination of factors that made these abilities very centralizing. By this metric Paradox Pokémon or Supreme Overlord are just as much of a "core mechanic of the generation" as Tera
also there is a challenge code that enables Tera preview, someone posted it earlier, don't immediately recall how to do it
2 ladders splinters the playerbase and essentially makes it so Smogon has no flagship metagame. Randbats is not a good comparison as its playerbase is massive and overwhelmingly casual. We've tried things like this with Dream World OU in Gen 5 and it was bad for the community, hence why there was a No-Dynamax randbats yet this was not entertained for SS OU.
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once u setup screens, 1 or 2 layer of spikes u have pretty much done, a sweeper with tera gets coverage + type change is really hard to stop
few defoggers, few spinners, dengo blocking both of them, hazard setter who can become ghost and antispin, the best screen setter is also a ghost so u can't even brick break
tera is also another reason on why gambit is so problematic,, constantly put into 50/50 with sucker punch but also u must be afraid to his tera flying for absorbing eq, tera fire to absorb wow or tera dark for a boosted sucker punch
start removing tera from him so he is forced to choose between balloon, glasses or lum berry and he instantly become a lot more easy to manage
Then just make two ladders. The proposal can be altered to fit what is in the playerbase’s best interest. We could have two OU ladders, one called “Tera OU” and another called “gimmickless OU” or whatever fits the bill. And it gets even better, because if one of the ladders does go unused, we can just take it off the showdown website, and now we know which the player base truly likes better; by paying attention to which one they play.
I like this idea a ton OU with tera stays, OU without tera is on for like a week to gauge public opinion on Tera
Thank you! All it takes is a little collaboration to take a meh idea into a great one.
Why not? Give me a valid reason to why this is so awful that all you could say was no.
Sorta just me salivating at the thought of clicking fighting move into Gambit and it actually connecting and killing it without any plane shenanigans.
Like somw people have mentioned, even with tera gone most likely Kingambit still will be too strong, reminds me of Magearna on gen 7 where it was super busted and could win games on its own if the rival got one turn wrong or they clicked EQ/thousand arrows on shuca Mag, but stayed on the tier because it checked a lot of stuff too.
Will try to write something on topic during the next week, have been busy but for what I have read I agree with a lot of argumments already said so will focus on something in particular that has been mentioned but haven't generate much disscussion.
At least chople is honest
I'm really not sure if gambit would be problematic without tera. Sure sucker punch gambit is insane, but it can't sd safely anymore on things it shouldn't be able to, which is massive. For sure, gambit would be insanely good even without tera, but possibly not broken since a lot of the 50/50 scenarios cannot be forced anymore, in which most were formed by terastal in the first place due to the free SD setup gambit gets. SD would definitely fall out of favor with gambit if tera goes, and tera + SD is a huge reason in why it is broken as it allows gambit free setup on things it shouldn't be able to. Without tera, gambit really can't afford to SD anywhere near as much, and thus cannot break through stuff it shouldn't be able to.
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