Metagame Terastallization Tiering Discussion, Part II [CLOSED FOR DLC]

[LoseToRU?]

Terastalization isn't the lynchpin to why Kingambit is problematic, the overwhelming power of a STAB Sucker Punch off 135 Attack and up to +50% from Supreme Overlord is the issue, with access to Swords Dance the icing on a crazy damaging cake. None of these calcs are going to include items, so remember there's also the option to use Black Glasses.

+2 252+ Atk Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tera Normal Mew: 258-304 (63.8 - 75.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tera Normal Mew: 313-370 (77.4 - 91.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

That's a neutral typing Mew with full HP investment, and it's taking up to 75% from a Sucker Punch and up to 90% from a Kowtow Cleave with zero Supreme Overlord stacks. It takes three stacks for Kowtow to be a guaranteed OHKO, while four stacks gives Sucker a chance and five makes it a favorable roll:

+2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 3 allies fainted Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tera Normal Mew: 409-483 (101.2 - 119.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 4 allies fainted Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tera Normal Mew: 361-426 (89.3 - 105.4%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tera Normal Mew: 387-456 (95.7 - 112.8%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

That's no hazards, four stacks is a guaranteed OHKO for Sucker Punch with just one layer of Spikes. I'm using Mew as an example because Mew's pretty bulky, but most things aren't packing 100/100 defenses; neutral typing Dragapult isn't frail, with 88/75 defenses, and it just dies:

+2 252+ Atk Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tera Dragon Dragapult: 328-387 (103.4 - 122%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 2 allies fainted Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tera Dragon Dragapult: 393-463 (103.4 - 121.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

No stacks needed without bulk investment, two stacks for max HP - again, without hazards, and on a neutral typing opponent.

This is the core problem behind Kingambit, not its synergy with defensive terastalization, not its power with tera-Dark, not the flexible item slot, it does huge numbers with a priority move while having enough bulk to eat any opposing priority except a Breloom Mach Punch (bulky SD Kingambit always survives a 252 Attack LO Pawmott Mach Punch!).

===

Concerns about cascading bans are also not supposed to be taken into account with bans, "If we ban X then we'll have to ban Y and Z" is explicitly not a valid argument for a tiering decision. If Kingambit eats a ban, either other mons rise up in use (potentially including Bisharp, who now has Eviolite to roughly match Kingambit's bulk, though obviously not its firepower) or we ban the things that Kingambit formerly checked. If cascading bans become an actual problem, we can revisit past decisions, but we shouldn't base current actions off pure theorymon like that.

Gambit is absolutely pushed over the edge by tera.
It would still be an A+ mon but not broken.

Let's steel-man your argument and say fallen 5 and the Gambit found a free turn to SD, and somehow at max HP.

+2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Great Tusk: 153-180 (41.2 - 48.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

+2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Iron Valiant: 105-124 (36.3 - 42.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

+1 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 248+ Def Landorus-Therian: 225-265 (58.9 - 69.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

0 Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kingambit: 254-300 (74.4 - 87.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
You kill after RH chip

252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo: 127-150 (25.1 - 29.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
Body press kills

+2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. +1 252 HP / 88 Def Zamazenta: 105-125 (27 - 32.2%) -- 51.6% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

Again, this is best case scenario for the Gambit, and that's 6 mons that can revenge it at +2

This isn't counting soft checks, priority, sub, encore, status and overall sucker mind games.

It's fine if Tera pushes it over the edge bro, it pushes a lot of mons that would otherwise be solid, top tier, into wildly stupid S+ tier.

I honestly think Tera, if used correctly, can make a mon jump up one, or even two ranks, as in C to A.
So what it does to A and S tier mons is just a part of Tera meta.

Whenever you bring that up, ppl either want to ban the mon, or give the same pro-tera talking points that boil down to "l2p, defensive tera, but they wasted their tera, you should have known" etc. into ad nauseum.

Moving on, I don't really know how you can honestly say "not its synergy with defensive terastalization, not its power with tera-Dark".

252+ Atk Black Glasses Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Tera Dark Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo: 248-292 (49.2 - 57.9%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO

It turns a 3hko on the best phys wall in the game into a clean 2hko.

Remember how Def Lando wins the 1v1?

+1 252+ Atk Black Glasses Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Tera Dark Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 248+ Def Landorus-Therian: 360-424 (94.2 - 110.9%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO

Not anymore.

and do we really need me to start pulling up numbers for Tera sets?

+2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 3 allies fainted Tera Fairy Kingambit Tera Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Great Tusk: 458-540 (105.5 - 124.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Great Tusk Headlong Rush vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tera Fairy Kingambit: 169-199 (49.5 - 58.3%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO

Like bro...
-
As far as the "tier falls apart" isn't supposed to be part of the suspect, I agree- but it is.
A major talking point of the entire Mel suspect thread in SS was how if Mel goes, then Weav and Pult become too strong.

Here's a link to me saying the exact same thing you're saying, but getting laugh react bombed lmao

It didn't bother me then as it doesn't bother me now- my tera points are subjective, but I was objectively right in this post and if you didn't know better from the reactions it looks like I'm wrong. Classic forum.

You can scroll down to a post right after saying "Bro it's a kids game rofl" and forum thinks that's mad funny, and then I post again saying suspects should exist in a vacuum.

https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...d-12-monster-mash.3709234/page-6#post-9369537

The Mel sus was oddly timed, and ppl were really done w SS at that point, but a major reason it stayed was no one wanted to shake up the tier.
If you don't believe me, skim the thread.

Gambit isn't going anywhere, it's always going to be a centralizing, lowkey broken mon because this meta has enough problem as is.
I promise you if it ever gets a sus, which it won't, that thread will be filled with the "tier falls apart" logic.

Anyway, didn't mean to come at you; just wanted to put some numbers down about Gambit and show you how things will actually go if Gambit is suspected.

 

[SnackWasTaken]

Gambit is absolutely pushed over the edge by tera.
It would still be an A+ mon but not broken.

Gambit isn't going anywhere, it's always going to be a centralizing, lowkey broken mon because this meta has enough problem as is.
I promise you if it ever gets a sus, which it won't, that thread will be filled with the "tier falls apart" logic.

Hopefully it goes somewhere, that somewhere being ubers. I do feel that many other mons could return, most notably Annihilape, Espathra and everyone’s favorite moth. They range from getting pushed over the edge by Tera to being almost totally reliant on it.
#freethemoth

 

[Solar Power]

252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo: 127-150 (25.1 - 29.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
Body press kills

my brother in christ who in their right mind is clicking Sucker Punch into max Phys Def Dondozo

On a more serious note... those calcs kinda show how OP Gambit is even without Tera. 40% on a resisted priority move to Great Tusk is more than enough to clean up late game. Also 40% priority damage into a 4x resisted Valiant. 69% on a neutral priority move into max Phy Def Lando-T after an attack drop.

These calcs are so unhealthy.

 

[KamenOH]

Gambit is absolutely pushed over the edge by tera.
It would still be an A+ mon but not broken.

Let's steel-man your argument and say fallen 5 and the Gambit found a free turn to SD, and somehow at max HP.

+2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Great Tusk: 153-180 (41.2 - 48.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

+2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Iron Valiant: 105-124 (36.3 - 42.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

+1 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 248+ Def Landorus-Therian: 225-265 (58.9 - 69.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

0 Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kingambit: 254-300 (74.4 - 87.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
You kill after RH chip

252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo: 127-150 (25.1 - 29.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
Body press kills

+2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. +1 252 HP / 88 Def Zamazenta: 105-125 (27 - 32.2%) -- 51.6% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

Again, this is best case scenario for the Gambit, and that's 6 mons that can revenge it at +2

This isn't counting soft checks, priority, sub, encore, status and overall sucker mind games.

It's fine if Tera pushes it over the edge bro, it pushes a lot of mons that would otherwise be solid, top tier, into wildly stupid S+ tier.

I honestly think Tera, if used correctly, can make a mon jump up one, or even two ranks, as in C to A.
So what it does to A and S tier mons is just a part of Tera meta.

Whenever you bring that up, ppl either want to ban the mon, or give the same pro-tera talking points that boil down to "l2p, defensive tera, but they wasted their tera, you should have known" etc. into ad nauseum.

Moving on, I don't really know how you can honestly say "not its synergy with defensive terastalization, not its power with tera-Dark".

252+ Atk Black Glasses Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Tera Dark Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo: 248-292 (49.2 - 57.9%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO

It turns a 3hko on the best phys wall in the game into a clean 2hko.

Remember how Def Lando wins the 1v1?

+1 252+ Atk Black Glasses Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Tera Dark Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 248+ Def Landorus-Therian: 360-424 (94.2 - 110.9%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO

Not anymore.

and do we really need me to start pulling up numbers for Tera sets?

+2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 3 allies fainted Tera Fairy Kingambit Tera Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Great Tusk: 458-540 (105.5 - 124.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Great Tusk Headlong Rush vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tera Fairy Kingambit: 169-199 (49.5 - 58.3%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO

Like bro...
-
As far as the "tier falls apart" isn't supposed to be part of the suspect, I agree- but it is.
A major talking point of the entire Mel suspect thread in SS was how if Mel goes, then Weav and Pult become too strong.

Here's a link to me saying the exact same thing you're saying, but getting laugh react bombed lmao

It didn't bother me then as it doesn't bother me now- my tera points are subjective, but I was objectively right in this post and if you didn't know better from the reactions it looks like I'm wrong. Classic forum.

You can scroll down to a post right after saying "Bro it's a kids game rofl" and forum thinks that's mad funny, and then I post again saying suspects should exist in a vacuum.

https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...d-12-monster-mash.3709234/page-6#post-9369537

The Mel sus was oddly timed, and ppl were really done w SS at that point, but a major reason it stayed was no one wanted to shake up the tier.
If you don't believe me, skim the thread.

Gambit isn't going anywhere, it's always going to be a centralizing, lowkey broken mon because this meta has enough problem as is.
I promise you if it ever gets a sus, which it won't, that thread will be filled with the "tier falls apart" logic.

Anyway, didn't mean to come at you; just wanted to put some numbers down about Gambit and show you how things will actually go if Gambit is suspected.

Holy shit Arkm was right about Weavile. Even with the banning of Chien-Pao its still not OU.

 

[ant4456]

Two ladders are not an option.

Period.

This was constantly brought up in the first thread, and denied there as well, and will not happen this time either. I advocated for it, and then saw the reasons that it will not happen; it will not happen.

Splitting the main playerbase of Smogon is not going to happen.

Decentralizing CGOU is not on the table to people in power. People would argue for months and years about which OU would be taken seriously, and as the same one, regardless of what we say now.

Tiering two tiers means double the work and at best half the playerbase size/feedback for both.

As someone who is known as "pro-tera", for all the people saying "Well, getting rid of Tera would lose some players!"

Frankly, splitting the ladder into two would do much worse for the playerbase than outright banning Tera, or even fuck it, making CGOU a petmod and giving Tera a 3x multiplier on Same Tera STAB. Splitting is bad for playerbase, retention, has to be led by more volunteers, leads to endless debates, etc.

Sadly.

 

[Rootb]

Gambit is absolutely pushed over the edge by tera.
It would still be an A+ mon but not broken.

Let's steel-man your argument and say fallen 5 and the Gambit found a free turn to SD, and somehow at max HP.

Great Tusk

Iron Valiant

Landorus-Therian

Dondozo

Zamazenta

Again, this is best case scenario for the Gambit, and that's 6 mons that can revenge it at +2

Unless you deleted a mon, this is 5, not 6. And that 5 includes three fighting types (the weakest of which is still a respectable 79/90 quad resist), a 150/115 Unaware mon, and Lando hitting a weakness, but failing to OHKO.

Yeah, there's mons that can handle Kingambit. Kinda. But this feels like Chien-Pao all over again.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

Gambit isn't going anywhere, it's always going to be a centralizing, lowkey broken mon because this meta has enough problem as is.
I promise you if it ever gets a sus, which it won't, that thread will be filled with the "tier falls apart" logic.

i'm sick of seeing that fucking thing, i don't care whether tera stays or goes or what the consequences are, just get it out of the tier. supreme overlord is uncompetitive by nature because it actively rewards playing like shit. i believe enough people feel the same way that gambit will get kicked out of the tier, especially since i haven't actually seen anyone defend the thing in earnest

 

[658Greninja]

with an update come out 2 months ago i only see boots, spikes, cheesy screens and stalls



the only "new archetype" i have seen was the meme quick claw team, no skill in that

u rise the skill cap by banning a variable called tera and stop team being composed by a spiker + dengo + 4 pokemon with setup moves hoping your opponents doesn't have an answer

I never mentioned anything about different archetypes. Quick Claw is a different subject from Tera and should be treated as such.

Judging by the response, you didn’t seem to read any of the points laid out and just read the title. The reason players think the skill cap is high is because Tera adds another dimension of play haven’t seen in years. It encourages players to develop a set of skills such as identifying possible Teras on the opponent’s side by breaking down their team structures. It encourages the use of different Teras to cover holes offensively or defensively.
Among other skills like scouting, decision making, critical thinking, and resource management. Also telegraphing and provoking Teras. Again, what do I mean by this?

Lets say your team has a Specs Volcanion for example and they don’t have a Water resist or at least a sturdy one. They are gonna Tera Water with their Glowking or Tera one of their offensive mons to threaten a KO. What turns into an advantage from the opponent’s side will also be an advantage for you, because now Glowking can’t check mons like Zama, Zapdos, or Enamorus anymore. That is what players mean by decision making.

Also wanna point out that your description of SV OU isn’t entirely accurate. Yes HO is the best archetype, but it isn’t exactly dry out of fruit. We have seen meta developments, even outside of HO. Molt was found to be an excellent check to several metagame threats. A-Muk is a solid special tank that can force progress with Poison Touch + Knock Off. Rillaboom turned out to be good on HO and BO styles. Scizor is a niche but viable anti-HO mon. Hell, I’ve even seen Hippo find use here as a soft-check to physical sweepers. Building in this gen is volatile if you aren’t using HO, yes, but BO still thrives in this metagame. To say there hasn’t been any meta developments in the past few weeks and clumping the gen as just the spikes lead + spinblocker + four setup mons is disingenuous despite there being some truth.

To quote a few of the top players that have commented on the matter.

“In high-level tour play, you can't go into cruise mode because late in a game your opponent may have a Tera that can reverse the course of your match. Making sure you set the proper teras on each of the 6 Pokemon you choose in teambuilding is very important as well and can have a huge payoff vs a player not as informed.” - NJNP

“Random tera's are basically as uncommon as it can get on high ladder or big tourney's random tera is something that's only seen in low ladder, nowhere else, if a person is using a specific tera on a mon trying to bait kill something, THAT'S GOOD TEAMBUILDING and has valid logic on why the person is using it not random and as I said with tera scouting you can bait most of these specific tera's too. Almost all the tera's are deducible on a team by just analyzing the structure of the team and how they are playing it, all that requires for you to be able to deduce it is be a good skilled player.” -Maverick Shooters


“As NJNP said in his post, I think Tera raises the skill gap enormously, and I personally think that's a good thing. I think encouraging people to build themselves, putting their own Tera types to cover for certain threats and matchups while consciously thinking about how the team functions and having to plan it all out in-game are very much good things.” I'm definitely not someone who condemns people stealing teams or whatever - I used plenty of stuff I didn't use myself in my time - but I also think that things that get people out of their comfort zone and actively playing is something we want, instead of 90+% of the teams being shared. You can still share teams, of course, but if you've ever watched someone inexperienced play Gen 9 OU vs someone who has played a lot then they probably got slaughtered. It's pretty obvious that SV OU rewards people willing yo put in time and effort and actively playing, and I think that's legitimately awesome.” - CrashinBoomBang

Obviously not every top player is on the same boat, and what they say isn’t gospel, but their opinions do come from a place of experience from playing for years.

Then just make two ladders. The proposal can be altered to fit what is in the playerbase’s best interest. We could have two OU ladders, one called “Tera OU” and another called “gimmickless OU” or whatever fits the bill. And it gets even better, because if one of the ladders does go unused, we can just take it off the showdown website, and now we know which the player base truly likes better; by paying attention to which one they play.

I’m pretty sure this was brought up many times before and it just does not work out. The whole point of a suspect test is to determine if the COMMUNITY wants to ban something or not. Making a no Tera ladder is an interesting thought experiment, but in practice it doesn’t really do anything since people are always going to gravitate towards the main OU tier, which makes the alt tier redundant.

 

[SnackWasTaken]

Two ladders are not an option.

Period.

This was constantly brought up in the first thread, and denied there as well, and will not happen this time either. I advocated for it, and then saw the reasons that it will not happen; it will not happen.

Splitting the main playerbase of Smogon is not going to happen.

Decentralizing CGOU is not on the table to people in power. People would argue for months and years about which OU would be taken seriously, and as the same one, regardless of what we say now.

Tiering two tiers means double the work and at best half the playerbase size/feedback for both.

As someone who is known as "pro-tera", for all the people saying "Well, getting rid of Tera would lose some players!"

Frankly, splitting the ladder into two would do much worse for the playerbase than outright banning Tera, or even fuck it, making CGOU a petmod and giving Tera a 3x multiplier on Same Tera STAB. Splitting is bad for playerbase, retention, has to be led by more volunteers, leads to endless debates, etc.

Sadly.

Look at it this way. The ladder that were to get more people playing it becomes the ladder we use forever. The other ladder goes away, maybe turned into an OM (which is not out of the question, have you seen the permanent fucking Godly Gift tier that usually doesn’t even allow you to play because no one else is?!), and that’s the end of it.

It doesn’t have to be complicated. If it doesn’t work, get rid of it.

People shouldn’t be voting on something without knowing what the end result should be. Instead, let people try things for themselves, let them experience new experiences.

Think about this; suppose the presidential election came around. You didn’t know anything about the second candidate, no one did. Would it be fair to have them in the election at all? If they won and turned out to be an awful president, would that be fair to the voters? If they lost but they would have been a good president, would that be fair?

If your answer is yes, then I don’t know what to say.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

Two ladders are not an option.

Period.

This was constantly brought up in the first thread, and denied there as well, and will not happen this time either. I advocated for it, and then saw the reasons that it will not happen; it will not happen.

Splitting the main playerbase of Smogon is not going to happen.

Decentralizing CGOU is not on the table to people in power. People would argue for months and years about which OU would be taken seriously, and as the same one, regardless of what we say now.

Tiering two tiers means double the work and at best half the playerbase size/feedback for both.

As someone who is known as "pro-tera", for all the people saying "Well, getting rid of Tera would lose some players!"

Frankly, splitting the ladder into two would do much worse for the playerbase than outright banning Tera, or even fuck it, making CGOU a petmod and giving Tera a 3x multiplier on Same Tera STAB. Splitting is bad for playerbase, retention, has to be led by more volunteers, leads to endless debates, etc.

Sadly.

has anyone else noticed that the arguments against making 2 ladders are almost verbatim the arguments people used against creating natdex

 

[LoseToRU?]

my brother in christ who in their right mind is clicking Sucker Punch into max Phys Def Dondozo

On a more serious note... those calcs kinda show how OP Gambit is even without Tera. 40% on a resisted priority move to Great Tusk is more than enough to clean up late game. Also 40% priority damage into a 4x resisted Valiant. 69% on a neutral priority move into max Phy Def Lando-T after an attack drop.

These calcs are so unhealthy.

Unless you deleted a mon, this is 5, not 6. And that 6 includes three fighting types (the weakest of which is still a respectable 79/90 quad resist), a 150/115 Unaware mon, and Lando hitting a weakness, but failing to OHKO.

Yeah, there's mons that can handle Kingambit. Kinda. But this feels like Chien-Pao all over again.

Yeah I tossed this one up mb for the typos or w/e lol

But yeah as crazy as those calcs are for X4 resists like Val, we could sit here all day and put up similar, insane calcs.

Having 5 or so answers for one of these S tiers mons after a turn to set up at max HP is a lot right now lol

Specs Moon from Enam/Val has like no switch ins straight up, esp Tera Fairy.

We can do the same with all the S tiers- Band Pult calcs, BU Tusk Calcs, etc.
There are Tera sets out now that are basically auto-wins when used skillfully if they don't have a hard counter- not a check, there are mons right now you need a dedicated answer for. So again, 5 counters isn't that bad.

It goes on man, gambit is just a symptom of the tera problem.
But it's funny af to me now that we've reached an impasse when it comes to banning mons.

Are we really just going to start banning mons as soon as they hit S tier lol? The tier really will fall apart without Gambit.
I already mentioned Band Pult, but if Gambit goes you better be happy when your Fairy takes wild chip from that U-turn lol
--
Tera is p fun sometimes, I'm used to it now and will live with it, but I'll never like what it does to a meta.
That's just how I feel, I don't like having broken mons that we can't ban in a tier.
It happens with every meta to some extent, but it's widespread right now because they're only half-broken, sometimes they don't tera lol

All Tera does for me is turn what could be a 9/10 meta into a 6/10, if it makes what would be your 6/10 into a 9/10 then I could see how you feel that way and don't really want to argue about it anymore.
But if I can get a compromise that makes the meta 7/10 for me I'll get reqs and vote for it. Simple as.

i'm sick of seeing that fucking thing, i don't care whether tera stays or goes or what the consequences are, just get it out of the tier. supreme overlord is uncompetitive by nature because it actively rewards playing like shit. i believe enough people feel the same way that gambit will get kicked out of the tier, especially since i haven't actually seen anyone defend the thing in earnest

End games in SV are literal hell lmao.
The pain that is mapping an end game with Tera aside, I can't stand the inevitable sucker mind games or the Gambit low kick speed ties lol.
Sucker punch used to be cool, smh...

 

[ant4456]

has anyone else noticed that the arguments against making 2 ladders are almost verbatim the arguments people used against creating natdex

Okay, let's take this argument and actually explore it.

For one, National Dex was relatively uncontroversial, and never had any chance of actually replacing, or to replace, CGOU. This is because the ethos of National Dex is entirely separate from the ethos of CGOU, which is a metagame that is based on the idea of handshake agreements to balance the game. National Dex is a "what if" scenario where Game Freak kept the same design philosophy of Gen 7 and kept going with it; aka, bringing back Megas, no lost moves, etc.

This means that National Dex inherently has less value than CGOU from a greater scope. If you want to figure out how well Tornadus-T did in Generation 8, you will look at CGOU, not National Dex, because one is much closer to what can actually be played in your own copy of the game with friends.

Meanwhile, A "Gen 9 Teraless OU" would be in much more direct competition to Gen 9 OU, or "Gen 9 Tera OU", either way. Because both are feasible on cart, and Tera has been played in tournaments for months. It would also create a struggle of which would become main OU, and that would split the community even further.

Because whichever one people decide should be the "Actual CGOU" will have triple, quadruple, even the players as the other. No matter what. What happens to the community? Do we just make two forums and two councils for something so similar?

Which is used in tournaments? Which is the one the current council inherits? Do we make two threads/discussions/chats/everything? Frankly, it's too much effort, and would be a disaster.

 

[658Greninja]

Tera is p fun sometimes, I'm used to it now and will live with it, but I'll never like what it does to a meta.
That's just how I feel, I don't like having broken mons that we can't ban in a tier.
It happens with every meta to some extent, but it's widespread right now because they're only half-broken, sometimes they don't tera lol

This is a good mindset to have. You like that the meta is fun but don’t like how Tera skews the balance of certain mons. Most of these mons, especially Gambit were built in mind with one or two major weaknesses, but Tera removes that weakness and leaves you with an unbalanced mon.

However I disagree with this one statement.

Specs Moon from Enam/Val has like no switch ins straight up, esp Tera Fairy.

Um…

Amoonguss, Clod, Corv, Ghold, Tran, Molt, Slowking-G, Scizor, Toxapex, Volc

 

[bigasschungusboi]

Don't really get the hatred towards this second ladder, By no means would it mess with actual tournaments or anything of the sort it would simply be a way to gauge public opinion for a week to see if tera preview or none tera ou would be feasible and a way to move forward?

 

[Beaf Cultist]

Because whichever one people decide should be the "Actual CGOU" will have triple, quadruple, even the players as the other. No matter what.

This is fine. I don’t care about no Tera ladder being the main format. Tera lovers can have OU. I just want to have a way to play the game that I actually enjoy, and I really don’t think that’s asking for too much.

edit: and yeah if for whatever reason we wanna have it be a temporary test ladder to gauge interest, sure. I’m sure if I’m right, the player count will show it. Besides, what would it even hurt? I don’t play OU nowadays anyway, and I’m sure there’s lots of similar cases.

 

[SnackWasTaken]

However I disagree with this one statement.
Um…

Amoonguss, Clod, Corv, Ghold, Tran, Molt, Slowking-G, Scizor, Toxapex, Volc

Sorry to break it to you buddy, but…

 

[Zetalz]

Don't really get the hatred towards this second ladder, By no means would it mess with actual tournaments or anything of the sort it would simply be a way to gauge public opinion for a week to see if tera preview or none tera ou would be feasible and a way to move forward?

I don't think you or others endorsing this idea really appreciate how little a second ladder really accomplishes, especially in as such a short time frame as suggested. Seperate ladders to try removing aspects from a tier have been tried for shit like No Megas and No Scald in Gen 6 OU & UU respectively. These separate ladders inherently have far less players and are far less developed than primary ones, this not even considering that removing something as large as Tera would require an even more significant time investment for anything of value to actually be gained. There is little incentive for people to invest time and effort into labbing an entirely new tier, which is essentially what these are.

 

[ant4456]

I don't think you or others endorsing this idea really appreciate how little a second ladder really accomplishes, especially in as such a short time frame as suggested. Seperate ladders to try removing aspects from a tier have been tried for shit like No Megas and No Scald in Gen 6 OU & UU respectively. These separate ladders inherently have far less players and are far less developed than primary ones, this not even considering that removing something as large as Tera would require an even more significant time investment for anything of value to actually be gained. There is little incentive for people to invest time and effort into labbing an entirely new tier, which is essentially what these are.

I'm not even saying I necessarily agree that in a perfect world we wouldn't have separate ladders, I'm pretty much just trying to be the messenger for what actually happens in effect, and why it's never going to be up for serious consideration.

Right now I'm looking at my notifs like

 

[Bakugames]

is changing the main ladder to either team preview or no tera viable? or just as unreliable as separate ladder? I feel like having a larger test where we just shove preview (or ban blast. idk which restriction yall r gonna do), have a longer suspect test (3 to 4 months) and then do a ranked test of no action, tera preview or pure ban after that could result in a more stable result in the long run, vs us having to revisit this multiple times

 

[bigasschungusboi]

If this is the case then what other ideas have come out, This seems like the only idea being said in the entire thread anyway

 

[Finchinator]

is changing the main ladder to either team preview or no tera viable? or just as unreliable as separate ladder? I feel like having a larger test where we just shove preview (or ban blast. idk which restriction yall r gonna do), have a longer suspect test (3 to 4 months) and then do a ranked test of no action, tera preview or pure ban after that could result in a more stable result in the long run, vs us having to revisit this multiple times

No, the main ladder will reflect the current metagame.

 

[Moyashi]

Terastalization isn't the lynchpin to why Kingambit is problematic, the overwhelming power of a STAB Sucker Punch off 135 Attack and up to +50% from Supreme Overlord is the issue, with access to Swords Dance the icing on a crazy damaging cake. None of these calcs are going to include items, so remember there's also the option to use Black Glasses.

+2 252+ Atk Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tera Normal Mew: 258-304 (63.8 - 75.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tera Normal Mew: 313-370 (77.4 - 91.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

That's a neutral typing Mew with full HP investment, and it's taking up to 75% from a Sucker Punch and up to 90% from a Kowtow Cleave with zero Supreme Overlord stacks. It takes three stacks for Kowtow to be a guaranteed OHKO, while four stacks gives Sucker a chance and five makes it a favorable roll:

+2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 3 allies fainted Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tera Normal Mew: 409-483 (101.2 - 119.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 4 allies fainted Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tera Normal Mew: 361-426 (89.3 - 105.4%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tera Normal Mew: 387-456 (95.7 - 112.8%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

That's no hazards, four stacks is a guaranteed OHKO for Sucker Punch with just one layer of Spikes. I'm using Mew as an example because Mew's pretty bulky, but most things aren't packing 100/100 defenses; neutral typing Dragapult isn't frail, with 88/75 defenses, and it just dies:

+2 252+ Atk Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tera Dragon Dragapult: 328-387 (103.4 - 122%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 2 allies fainted Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tera Dragon Dragapult: 393-463 (103.4 - 121.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

No stacks needed without bulk investment, two stacks for max HP - again, without hazards, and on a neutral typing opponent.

This is the core problem behind Kingambit, not its synergy with defensive terastalization, not its power with tera-Dark, not the flexible item slot, it does huge numbers with a priority move while having enough bulk to eat any opposing priority except a Breloom Mach Punch (bulky SD Kingambit always survives a 252 Attack LO Pawmott Mach Punch!).

===

Concerns about cascading bans are also not supposed to be taken into account with bans, "If we ban X then we'll have to ban Y and Z" is explicitly not a valid argument for a tiering decision. If Kingambit eats a ban, either other mons rise up in use (potentially including Bisharp, who now has Eviolite to roughly match Kingambit's bulk, though obviously not its firepower) or we ban the things that Kingambit formerly checked. If cascading bans become an actual problem, we can revisit past decisions, but we shouldn't base current actions off pure theorymon like that.

Tera is absolutely the reason. You can throw a list of calcs out to show its power pre tera, but without Tera Gambit has to actually work for its setup chances. More than that, without Tera Gambit has real hard stops that limit it, making it harder to reach that endgame state. There is a lot of fighting Pokemon in the tier as well as miscellaneous fighting moves (often body press but also sometimes close combat), which help limit what Gambit could do in a non tera game. This alone would go a long way in balancing it out.

View attachment 535239
Like somw people have mentioned, even with tera gone most likely Kingambit still will be too strong, reminds me of Magearna on gen 7 where it was super busted and could win games on its own if the rival got one turn wrong or they clicked EQ/thousand arrows on shuca Mag, but stayed on the tier because it checked a lot of stuff too.
Will try to write something on topic during the next week, have been busy but for what I have read I agree with a lot of argumments already said so will focus on something in particular that has been mentioned but haven't generate much disscussion.

If Gambit ran chople, it would lose out on lum berry and become vulnerable to burns. It also loses power boost options like black glasses, and leftovers recovery. It's much more reasonable to account for when it can't casually pick what it wants to invalidate as a check and set up on for little to no real risk.

 

[SnackWasTaken]

I don't think you or others endorsing this idea really appreciate how little a second ladder really accomplishes, especially in as such a short time frame as suggested. Seperate ladders to try removing aspects from a tier have been tried for shit like No Megas and No Scald in Gen 6 OU & UU respectively. These separate ladders inherently have far less players and are far less developed than primary ones, this not even considering that removing something as large as Tera would require an even more significant time investment for anything of value to actually be gained. There is little incentive for people to invest time and effort into labbing an entirely new tier, which is essentially what these are.

But it’s not like one of them would be THE OU and the other would be some sort of Other Metagame. They would both be OU for that short while, the most popular one would receive unbiased attention and stay.

 

[Bakugames]

No, the main ladder will reflect the current metagame.

more of a curiosity: is there a reason for that? I know it used to be done in the past, but is it harder to set up/just not a reliable method to do suspect tests? thank you for your time finch

 

[Finchinator]

more of a curiosity: is there a reason for that? I know it used to be done in the past, but is it harder to set up/just not a reliable method to do suspect tests? thank you for your time finch

It being done in the past is why. When we splintered ladder or altered ladder, we always missed the mark and created massive divisions. The identity of the metagame is relevant, suspect tests are done to determine if things are problematic in that metagame we identify with, and theoretical future metagames are irrelevant as they’re bound to have more rounds of tiering after any action may occur, making a ladder without X Y or Z entirely moot.