Metagame Terastallization Tiering Discussion, Part II [CLOSED FOR DLC]

[Floatstonemafia]

I don't really want to waste time weigh in on this because I think it's a completely forgone conclusion, but I keep seeing this statement

> mainly cuz it’s a generational mechanic that isn’t obviously broken

and this isn't even true. Tera is objectively broken and absolutely format warping. I don't think anyone is competently disputing that. What people are disputing is if it's broken enough to warrant banning the defining mechanic of the generation, the same way no one really wanted to ban politoed/ninetales/ttar back in gen 5 even when objectively the game would have been better off without it because it was decide early on that this was the Weather Generation(tm). We're kind of of the sliding scale of 'I mean yeah it's broken, but it also makes this gen unique so how broken is it really?'.

 

[veti]

Tera is objectively broken

Is it really? There are only two types of pokemon broken by tera in OU

1: a very small subset of sweepers (and only two, Kingambit and Volcarona for OU. Many even argue Volcarona and Kingambit aren't broken by tera.)

2: Regieleki, a pokemon balanced around poor movepool that would be banned if it got powder snow

 

[Rootb]

I don't really want to waste time weigh in on this because I think it's a completely forgone conclusion, but I keep seeing this statement

> mainly cuz it’s a generational mechanic that isn’t obviously broken

and this isn't even true. Tera is objectively broken and absolutely format warping. I don't think anyone is competently disputing that. What people are disputing is if it's broken enough to warrant banning a the defining mechanic of the generation, the same way no one really wanted to ban politoed/ninetales/ttar back in gen 5 even when objectively the game would have been better off without it.

These are some really big claims from a guy who also thinks that we need to audit the NDOU vote to find out the truth. I strongly, strongly recommend heading to the Policy Review thread (which you can very helpfully find, right here, behind this link!), and reading the opinions of high level players who (rightfully) don't really want to waste their time posting in a thread like this one.

Like, I totally get that you don't like Tera. You're hardly the only person that feels that way. But that's a hell of a claim to make, and it's not hard in the slightest to find people with real credentials who disagree with you. Granted, if you're one of those people for whom "competently" means "agreeing with me", there's probably no pleasing you. But you should really probably read what high-level players are saying before seriously suggesting the bolded phrase.

 

[Floatstonemafia]

The funny thing is that nearly all of the players in that thread are saying something similar to what I said (just with more eloquence) - Tera is overpowered and centralizing, but it's not overpowered enough to overcome the level of skill it creates (which I do think is debatable but I can understand the other side even if I respectfully disagree with it).

We're well past the point of tera being overpowered or not. It's overpowered and format-warping. The only question is if that format warping is good or not. Because it is possible for something to be format warping and overpowered and yet create a better format by it existing. GSC Snorlax is a great example of that. It may be the single most overpowered mon to ever be legal in OU and stay legal. But it creates a better format being legal.

 

[Empress Mobile]

This isn't entirely true btw, a ban in OU means a ban in all of the lower tiers as well except Ubers. That's the policy for any OU ban on pokemon, items, moves, etc. So, once OU bans tera, it's banned in all the official tiers under it as well (except Ubers obviously). The only time this doesn't happen is in oldgens because of the tier lock in oldgen formats.

That being said, I think the referendum is a fine idea, but realistically it would probably never happen as, while Empress Mobile was incorrect in the ripple effects of an OU ban, they are indeed correct that lower tier effects should not guide OU tiering policy.

The difference doesn't really matter in this case, but I'm not aware of any policy that requires the ban to be implemented in lower tiers. If you could point me to one that would be appreciated. It was my understanding this is just what is generally done.

 

[BigFatMantis]

The difference doesn't really matter in this case, but I'm not aware of any policy that requires the ban to be implemented in lower tiers. If you could point me to one that would be appreciated. It was my understanding this is just what is generally done.

https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/dynamax-is-banned-from-ou-explanation-information.3657917/

Here you go, Dynamax ban from last gen.

"Dynamax will be banned from the SS OU metagame and tiers below it such as UU"

 

[Empress Mobile]

https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/dynamax-is-banned-from-ou-explanation-information.3657917/

Here you go, Dynamax ban from last gen.

"Dynamax will be banned from the SS OU metagame and tiers below it such as UU"

Ok we don't have to get too far into it, ultimately it won't affect tiering on this item. This is just an example though, it isn't a policy. I understand that bans are usually passed through lower tiers, this was stated clearly in the post that you said was incorrect.

 

[BigFatMantis]

Ok we don't have to get too far into it, ultimately it won't affect tiering on this item. This is just an example though, it isn't a policy. I understand that bans are usually passed through lower tiers, this was stated clearly in the post that you said was incorrect.

It is policy - anything banned in OU trickles down, and anything banned in UU trickles down to RU/NU etc. That's how it's always been. I can give you more examples if you want, but you're not going to find a post that says "This is how it is done" because it's just sort of understood to be that way. There's numerous other examples I could fetch for you if you'd like, such as luck item ban in OU, or Gengar ban in SS UU that got it banned in RU since it was an RU mon (and fine in that tier), etc.

It's worth at least having a discussion on it here though, as the referendum suggestion is, I think, a cool idea. Since the OU ban here affects all tiers per tiering policy, I think it's nice to have all tiers chime in on it. But, as previously stated, another part of tiering policy is to not let the effects of lower tiers affect OU Tiering. This, of course, would never need to be stated if it wasn't for the fact that all OU bans trickle down.

 

[RoyalDispenser]

For a more targeted explanation; Its also been outright stated in the last tera suspect they will not enable UU/lower tiers to have different rulesets when it comes to tera.

Its why in the later stages of the last tera test it was encouraged in UU to vote for tera since it wasn't too unbalanced there at the time and they enjoyed the meta while OU's decision could either kill that or stay the same, voting in OU was basically voting for UU. How much those votes mattered for OU no clue.

I personally wish they would take it to discussion in policy review to make a compromise (since they're so insistent on compromises now-a-days anyways), but that's up to the individual tier leaders to initialize not us.

 

[Empress Mobile]

It is policy - anything banned in OU trickles down, and anything banned in UU trickles down to RU/NU etc. That's how it's always been. I can give you more examples if you want, but you're not going to find a post that says "This is how it is done" because it's just sort of understood to be that way. There's numerous other examples I could fetch for you if you'd like, such as luck item ban in OU, or Gengar ban in SS UU that got it banned in RU since it was an RU mon (and fine in that tier), etc.

It's worth at least having a discussion on it here though, as the referendum suggestion is, I think, a cool idea. Since the OU ban here affects all tiers per tiering policy, I think it's nice to have all tiers chime in on it. But, as previously stated, another part of tiering policy is to not let the effects of lower tiers affect OU Tiering. This, of course, would never need to be stated if it wasn't for the fact that all OU bans trickle down.

My only point was that the lower tiers aren't involved in OU tiering decisions partially because there is no policy that requires them to implement the changes and they have discretion to make exceptions. Drought in SM RU is a good example. Yes, the bans are almost always implemented and would almost certainly be implemented for this case. I understand this and have acknowledged it.

 

[BigFatMantis]

My only point was that the lower tiers aren't involved in OU tiering decisions partially because there is no policy that requires them to implement the changes and they have discretion to make exceptions. Drought in SM RU is a good example. Yes, the bans are almost always implemented and would almost certainly be implemented for this case. I understand this and have acknowledged it.

This is also not true, they don't have discretion to make exceptions. They must follow the OU tiering for CG. In the past it may have been different, but the current policy is clear, and as explicitly stated in the last tera suspect (and will likely be explicitly stated in this one), UU and other lower tiers will not be permitted to have different rules than OU re: tera.

 

[Vall]

It's worth at least having a discussion on it here though, as the referendum suggestion is, I think, a cool idea. Since the OU ban here affects all tiers per tiering policy, I think it's nice to have all tiers chime in on it. But, as previously stated, another part of tiering policy is to not let the effects of lower tiers affect OU Tiering. This, of course, would never need to be stated if it wasn't for the fact that all OU bans trickle down.

It's interesting, because as a general rule, sure. It's almost always the case that if somethings broken in one tier, its broken in every tier below it. Not only that, but in pretty much every case, the subject of discussion isn't usable/won't be usable in the immediate future in any tier below due to tiering rules.

Tera is different in that... there are significantly different opinions in lower tiers.

Are there any examples of anything in discussion for ban being both

• Usable in a tier below the one the ban is called for
• Commonly used in the tier below the one the ban is called for

There are examples like Espathra that fufill the first condition, but I can't think of anything that fills the second.

 

[BigFatMantis]

It's interesting, because as a general rule, sure. It's almost always the case that if somethings broken in one tier, its broken in every tier below it. Not only that, but in pretty much every case, the subject of discussion isn't usable/won't be usable in the immediate future in any tier below due to tiering rules.

Tera is different in that... there are significantly different opinions in lower tiers.

Are there any examples of anything in discussion for ban being both

• Usable in a tier below the one the ban is called for
• Commonly used in the tier below the one the ban is called for

There are examples like Espathra that fufill the first condition, but I can't think of anything that fills the second.

The most recent one I can think of is SS UU Gengar - it was quickbanned by the UU Council during SS UU, despite the fact that it was an RU Pokemon and arguably not broken at all in RU. But it was the dynamic that Gengar had with the UU metagame that made it overbearing, and as such UU banned it and RU could no longer use it.

OU this gen hasn't really banned anything that other tiers use. However, Orthworm was at one point UU while it still had Shed Tail, and it seemed ok in UU with Shed Tail. So, you could argue that Shed Tail was just fine in lower tiers IF Orthworm was still down there. However by that point Orthworm was OU and causing all kinds of nonsense because of the power level in OU hiding behind Shed Tail. Orthworm is now UU/RU by this point, but since Shed Tail is banned in OU, none of the lower tiers can use Shed Tail.

 

[Empress Mobile]

This is also not true, they don't have discretion to make exceptions. They must follow the OU tiering for CG. In the past it may have been different, but the current policy is clear, and as explicitly stated in the last tera suspect (and will likely be explicitly stated in this one), UU and other lower tiers will not be permitted to have different rules than OU re: tera.

This would, again, not be a general tiering policy, but one specific example. You state the policy is clear, but also say that it isn't actually stated anywhere. If it isn't stated anywhere then it isn't a policy. Perhaps I am mistaken and it is stated somewhere, but I haven't seen it. In this specific case, it has been clarified how this specific situation will be handled. That's fine & it's nice to have this clarification ahead of time.

 

[JunkoAJ]

As much as I am super suspicious of how the NDOU vote was conducted and the results thereof, I don't think that changing the current system to force a result we want is a good precedent.

I'm mostly ambivalent to the discussion on Tera right now so I've just been reading the thread but, I really hope no one else talks about this because there is still no actual proof of voter manipulation at all in the NDOU vote - people got reqs, people voted. The vocal people on Smogon forums do not constitute the wider playerbase - the NDOU (and ND Ubers) suspect clearly show this.

 

[Finchinator]

As much as I am super suspicious of how the NDOU vote was conducted and the results thereof, I don't think that changing the current system to force a result we want is a good precedent.

There’s nothing to be suspicious about. Voters from all
walks of the playerbase are welcome and I am glad they participated in their test. Give this one a rest Imo

 

[RoiDadadou]

Very happy for China/Belgium/Bangladesh that they are pushing forward their community on the website. Give them some rest, lol.

 

[kos parasite]

It’s very unfortunate that some Pokémon are pushed over the top by tera because it’s just a fun mechanic. Allows for some next level heat. But most of the time you just see someone win by using tera on their gambit or something. I wish there was a good compromise, but I don’t think there is one.
I would like to see it fully unrestricted personally until we have all the rest of the Pokémon included that will come to SVOU.

 

[Bakugames]

Aint the chinese community's fault the average natdex player just took their stance on tera as the "ultimate truth" and didn't even try to get reqs lol. If anything the NDOU suspect should be a wake up call that smogon is only a small perspective of singles, and many players who don't interact with the forums have flourishing communities and their own idea of whats broken, thus you should never take your opinion as granted and still do your part if you're that invested. Very likely this will happen in this suspect test too, which is why i fundamentally disagree with "tera being acted on is certain"

 

[Bakugames]

I think this begs the question about this suspect, do we raise reqs even higher than last time and greatly raise the barrier of entry?

no lol stop being so afraid of people who want to have their voice heard just like you, just cant communicate because of language. theyre not boogeyman trying to ruin your game

quick edit: i need you guys to reflect and think "would i be this fucking rabid about the participation of the chinese community if they voted pro ban?". and don't go with the quick defensive "Um of course i would!!" I want you to actually think about it, because I guarantee there's a good chance you would not. You're just mad the result you didn't like won so you're using the easy way out into blaming others instead of just recognizing the inaction of the natdex community and moving on

(the og post was only the phrase i quoted, before people claim im ignoring the rest of their point LOL)

 

[BolTingBlazie]

no lol stop being so afraid of people who want to have their voice heard just like you, just cant communicate because of language. theyre not boogeyman trying to ruin your game

i'm not saying that at all, i'm saying the natdex suspect wasn't necessarily handled the best. People who voted from other countries were barely active on the forums and oftentimes created accounts on here just to vote as soon as they got reqs. That rubs me the wrong way, and I feel like there should be a requirement where you should be a somewhat active member on the forums or have an old enough account to be able to vote, as something like that would prevent people from making forums accounts just to vote and would encourage them to actually interact with people before voting. Something about that test definitely went wrong besides inaction obviously, and I just don't want the same thing to happen to SV OU, where we vote no action because of players who never interacted on the forums before or had an account on here, or vote to take action but cannot decide how we go about it.

I feel my concerns are at the very least valid for suspect tests like this, as I believe the natdex one definitely could have been handled far better, and reqs definitely should have been higher for a game changing test like this.

 

[RoiDadadou]

 

[ianlazerbeem]

I don't really want to waste time weigh in on this because I think it's a completely forgone conclusion, but I keep seeing this statement

> mainly cuz it’s a generational mechanic that isn’t obviously broken

and this isn't even true. Tera is objectively broken and absolutely format warping. I don't think anyone is competently disputing that. What people are disputing is if it's broken enough to warrant banning the defining mechanic of the generation, the same way no one really wanted to ban politoed/ninetales/ttar back in gen 5 even when objectively the game would have been better off without it because it was decide early on that this was the Weather Generation(tm). We're kind of of the sliding scale of 'I mean yeah it's broken, but it also makes this gen unique so how broken is it really?'.

3 Pokémon having 3 abilities being considered the "generational mechanic" of gen 5 is proof we should stop using this ridiculous term to influence discussion on tiering action

 

[BolTingBlazie]

3 Pokémon having 3 abilities being considered the "generational mechanic" of gen 5 is proof we should stop using this ridiculous term to influence discussion on tiering action

Gems were closer to a generational gimmick honestly, and those were not healthy at all.

 

[Bakugames]

sorry finch for turning this thread into natdex tera discussion apparently. please dont kill me im so nice

People who voted from other countries were barely active on the forums and oftentimes created accounts on here just to vote as soon as they got reqs. That rubs me the wrong way, and to me you should be a somewhat active member on the forums or have an old enough account to be able to vote, as something like that would prevent people from making forums accounts just to vote and would encourage them to actually interact with people before voting.

there's plenty of posts written more eloquently by smarter people than me on why this is a bad idea. The first option is a big middle finger to non-english speaking communities who cannot speak english or cannot express themselves as well as a native speaker and also just people who dare to not talk in the forums for various reasons but still have knowledge on the metagame. Genuinely all this will do is making smogon less welcoming and insular and end up with half baked posts from people who have to show activity to vote. The latter will just have people create accounts in smogon, not do anything with them and let them age so they can use it for suspect tests.