Another example i feel is Zamazenta, it felt like the high ladder players more often were DNB while more low ladder players were pro ban. This could be wrong so feel free to correct me if it is. I think people went from ”omg it is an uber legendary with a movepool in ou” to figuring out it was not as absurd as they first thought.
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v2 [Update on Post #5186]
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Honestly if gambit were to be banned, the biggest offender on the chopping block next would prolly be pult
I feel as if heatran can deal with gholdengo rather fine enough to make sure it does try to do pult shenanigans, idek about tran checking pult w/o toxic though
Also for the love of God how to I stop a Bax from finding the slightest flaw in my team, abusing it, getting a flinch then insta-winning
I feel as if heatran can deal with gholdengo rather fine enough to make sure it does try to do pult shenanigans, idek about tran checking pult w/o toxic though
Also for the love of God how to I stop a Bax from finding the slightest flaw in my team, abusing it, getting a flinch then insta-winning
Eviolite Bisharp can check most forms of Pult pretty well, at least on paper.
How have y'all been doing with Rotom-W post-HOME? I feel like since HOME dropped and we got Zapdos, Moltres, and Glowking added as effective pivots, Rotom-W has felt way less splashable and way less useful, and typically if I'm building a new team I'll default to Zap where in the past I'd default to Rotom-W.
Well now we gotta find enough eviolite bisharp uses to make it not a "Oh no it keeps pult in check" Mon and instead a OU Mon in itself
It faces competition from those mons but it still has some defensive utility imo. Washtom's typing is great combined with that ability and WoW can come in handy versus a lot of physical threats (sadly not Bax though, which it can switch in on if it uses any move but Glaive Rush). Synergizes with hazard control mons like Tusk and CC Cinder very well too.
i mean, its role is solely to be kingambit-methadone once the inevitable ban happens, so start looking at gambit's other roles it could fill
the only other role bisharp can fill is it's niche against ghost type attackers like dragapult and gholdengo. It's atrociously bad at kingambit's other niche of nigh-unstoppable late game sweeper. Not only does it not get 50% inc damage from supreme overlord, it doesn't even get kowtow claw and has to use night slash (another 12% reduced damage if you can't click sucker punch). Coming off of worse attack (another 8% less damage, man this is adding up), irrelevant speed tier, and worse defensive stats (if you don't use eviolite, which using further reduces it's damage).
So basically it's not worth using except if you really, really need a hard counter to pult and gholdengo.
It's really kind of amazing how carried bisharp was by knock off in hindsight.
So basically it's not worth using except if you really, really need a hard counter to pult and gholdengo.
It's really kind of amazing how carried bisharp was by knock off in hindsight.
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you keep using that word. i do not think it means what you think it means
but yeah, the fact that it's not the bullshit late-game get-out-of-jail-free card that gambit is... well, that's kind of the point, because that's what makes gambit broken. and we do really, really need a hard counter to pult and gholdengo when gambit gets the gamboot
I heard this sentence a lot for tera and Wake, it is a way to jinx it.
There is a mon called Ting-Lu that does pretty well against those two
Tera's not getting banned. Abandon hope for that. You'd be lucky if you could get even get Tera Preview or Tera Blast banned. The NDOU suspect test just proved that there is apparently a very large unvocal majority willing to clear the benches to defend it. No comment on walking wake.
The thing is this - the metagame overall is trash. Tera is the main issue, but since people would rather have a meta with tera than one without it, pressure has to be released somewhere. Something's definitely getting banned after the Tera changes fall through because at the end of the test, that 46% of people who were unhappy with the competitiveness of the tier on the last survey will still be unhappy. Kingambit is the biggest offender right now. So that will definitely get banned. Then probably dragapult which is bad now but gets much worse when Kingambit isn't on every team. Then Iron Valiant. Sneasler, Samurott, Garg maybe. Then maybe 5-8 mons later we'll abandon this ship for gen 10 with the overall meta unaffected.
This kind of off ramps into something that I've been thinking about for a little bit now. You have a card game. Card games have archetypes. Aggro, Combo, Control, Midrange generally even if they're named something different (burn is aggro for instance). A card game dev notices that control is underperforming across the board. Instead of removing cards from the meta that are blatantly overperforming and hoping that at some point control gets it's turn, the card game dev might remove a card that is not overperforming in and of itself, but it's very existent makes it challenging to play control. Say a card exists that stop you from countering cards, that's generally splashable and most decks can fit it in. It's not the reason why Aggro is overperforming, but it's a reason why control is underperforming. The dev could simply just banish that card to buff control. That liberty exists because it's run as a dictatorship not a democracy. If a dev wants to ban something, it's toast.
This is a pressure release valve that smogon currently does not support. We're reduced to playing wack-a-mole with mons that may be strong enough by themselves to get enough support to get a positive result on a suspect test. And praying that if we remove enough mons, the meta will normalize on it's own. The problem (especially this generation) is that there are so many threats to wack-a-mole that this process is going to take forever before ever coming close to normalizing. Banning kingambit doesn't suddenly make defensive play more viable. It's just one name off the checklist that stretches down the block.
The reason I bring this up is Garg, Gholdengo, and Ursaluna. None (gholdengo especially) is ever likely to see a suspect test in the near future if ever, but they make it nearly impossible to play defensive oriented teams because they get to ignore traditional defensive tactics, and their most reliable counterplay is not available to defensive teams. 'Just revenge kill ursaluna' keeps it off a suspect test but doesn't fix the fact that stall teams are delving deep into NU to find Drifblim to find any counter to it. Removing them from the tier might result in a more evenly balanced meta because defensive teams get to rally, but the current system does not support removing them short of a council quick ban which after the volcarona shitshow (even if it was justified) is definitely not going to happen. The current suspect system is too overly favored towards short term 'broken or nah' changes and not long term 'does this mon make a better meta'. There needs to be some kind of mechanism to advocate for meta changes not wack-a-mole changes.
The thing is this - the metagame overall is trash. Tera is the main issue, but since people would rather have a meta with tera than one without it, pressure has to be released somewhere. Something's definitely getting banned after the Tera changes fall through because at the end of the test, that 46% of people who were unhappy with the competitiveness of the tier on the last survey will still be unhappy. Kingambit is the biggest offender right now. So that will definitely get banned. Then probably dragapult which is bad now but gets much worse when Kingambit isn't on every team. Then Iron Valiant. Sneasler, Samurott, Garg maybe. Then maybe 5-8 mons later we'll abandon this ship for gen 10 with the overall meta unaffected.
This kind of off ramps into something that I've been thinking about for a little bit now. You have a card game. Card games have archetypes. Aggro, Combo, Control, Midrange generally even if they're named something different (burn is aggro for instance). A card game dev notices that control is underperforming across the board. Instead of removing cards from the meta that are blatantly overperforming and hoping that at some point control gets it's turn, the card game dev might remove a card that is not overperforming in and of itself, but it's very existent makes it challenging to play control. Say a card exists that stop you from countering cards, that's generally splashable and most decks can fit it in. It's not the reason why Aggro is overperforming, but it's a reason why control is underperforming. The dev could simply just banish that card to buff control. That liberty exists because it's run as a dictatorship not a democracy. If a dev wants to ban something, it's toast.
This is a pressure release valve that smogon currently does not support. We're reduced to playing wack-a-mole with mons that may be strong enough by themselves to get enough support to get a positive result on a suspect test. And praying that if we remove enough mons, the meta will normalize on it's own. The problem (especially this generation) is that there are so many threats to wack-a-mole that this process is going to take forever before ever coming close to normalizing. Banning kingambit doesn't suddenly make defensive play more viable. It's just one name off the checklist that stretches down the block.
The reason I bring this up is Garg, Gholdengo, and Ursaluna. None (gholdengo especially) is ever likely to see a suspect test in the near future if ever, but they make it nearly impossible to play defensive oriented teams because they get to ignore traditional defensive tactics, and their most reliable counterplay is not available to defensive teams. 'Just revenge kill ursaluna' keeps it off a suspect test but doesn't fix the fact that stall teams are delving deep into NU to find Drifblim to find any counter to it. Removing them from the tier might result in a more evenly balanced meta because defensive teams get to rally, but the current system does not support removing them short of a council quick ban which after the volcarona shitshow (even if it was justified) is definitely not going to happen. The current suspect system is too overly favored towards short term 'broken or nah' changes and not long term 'does this mon make a better meta'. There needs to be some kind of mechanism to advocate for meta changes not wack-a-mole changes.
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I could make the argument that the only mon that is banworthy in the meta atm is Kingambit. It can easily beat what is supposed to be its counter in Great Tusk which makes it so broken. It dictates endgames at an unhealthy rate.
The other mons you said were gonna get banned following it like Pult and Valiant can be checked by a team with a competent defensive core. There are enough answers in the tier to deem them not broken or banworthy. Mons like Amoongus, Ting-Lu, Garganacl, Clodsire, Moltres, Gholdengo, Dondozo, Tozapex, etc are good at limiting them. Also priority and scarf users can revenge kill (after booster energy is used).
So we'll ban kingambit. Who it turns out was the most reliable check for dragapult. Now we gotta deal with that leading to a ban. Now we got sneasler problems because guess who one of the more reliable sneasler counters is right now? Now with those three out of the way and the meta still bad, we turn to the next big mon - Iron Valiant with it's 500 sets all of which sweep. Gone. At some point someone's gonna rationalize Samurott leading every team and at least suspect it, ban maybe or maybe not. Pokemon metas are like Jenga Towers. Removing a single piece has massive repercussions because it's hard to realize everything a mon was suppressing until you remove it.
What's going to be referenced is that Iron Valiant can beat every single one of those mons with the right set, and it has at least 5 viable sets that can beat any of those mons. We've been down this road before, it usually ends with a mon getting kicked to ubers. Mon with high offenses, good speed, and multiple viable sets is a recipe for an uber like few others. Because at the end of the day, team building is a limited resource generally in favor of offense. If you brought dondozo + amoongus to deal with an iron valiant and it turns out that it's a mixed attacker set with psyshock and thunderbolt, you're pretty SOL.
Also, let's be real - how many people are even bothering with defensive cores this generation? Half of this generation is hyper offense.
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We agree that Kingambit should be banned.
A halfway competent teambuilder will account for the Valiant if it becomes the number 1 threat and pack checks/counters for both physical and special variants. And although Valiant has the capability of beating all those threats, the reality is that it cant beat everything with one set, it has to commit to beat some things while losing to others. It is more balanced because of this. There would have to be substantial evidence that it is broken to be ban-worthy.
I haven't been paying full attention so you may have addressed this, but don't you think you're assuming pult somehow has nothing to stop it at all? Phys sets are dealt with rather well by tusk/Lando, safe from burning tera/phantom force scarf dengo revenge specs, neutral Phys, and non sub wisps, Garg just resists the spammable stab option, has instant recovery, decent stats to take Draco's, and it's a fairy half the time it's playing
Heatran... Nvm tran is tran rn ig.
The two tier fairies are quite good, as one effectively outspeeds half the time, the other rarely does, but can live a sball to kill with mblast if at decent HP ranges
There's gambito's son down in UU chilling, Bax has a very strong ice shard, as well as solid bulk to take specs sballs, and the general fact that pult is not a juggernaut in any manner
Idk though I haven't played OU in a while I'm just talking off what I remember
i dunno, people who like switching into things maybe? ting-lu is a+ on the vr for a reason
With 9% usage. Meanwhile 30% of the ladder is saying 'yeah I'd rather just have an mon with good resists that also kills people. Hey how bout this Kingambit or Great Tusk or Gholdengo'.
my guy thinks 30 and 9 add up to 100
It's kind of funny how my bad phrasing which I corrected fast but not fast enough was the only problem you found there.
Idk man i just dont see justification in banning Pult or Valiant atm because of the decent amount of counter-play. Kingambit on the other hand needs to go on the chopping block, but I dont see the domino effect you claim can happen if its banned.
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9% usage is a lot for a wall without reliable recovery...
If Gambit gets banned, HO and ghosts become harder to check. If Valiant gets banned, DD sweepers like Dnite or Bax might get outta control. If Garg gets banned, we lose a strong Ghost resist and rock setter. If Pult gets banned, less reliable speed control.
ftfy
Also so it's not a one liner, I think this argument about not wanting to ban gambit or else pult will be too strong is kind of bad. Pult is not that hard to check. A lot of mons can blanket check it because 100 spatk is not that much (ting lu, garg, luna, tinkaton, defensive zap, defensive moltres, etc...) and while it has no "hard counters" in theory, in practice its rare for a pult to put in that much pressure, simply because it usually has to lock itself into a move to score kills, and hates doing so in a meta filled to the brim with set up sweepers and strong breakers that take advantage of these turns. It also hates hazards and isn't all that bulky. I really think pult will be fine, it'll be a really good late game cleaner like koko last gen, but not banworthy imo.
Screw all this King Gambit talk, it seems beaten to death that by removing the ghost resist, the ghosts get better. Now onto the real question, have people looked at using Scream Tail for a screen setter? I don't see a problem with it because of its sheer bulk and speed, as well as access to encore and possibly wish support. The only problem is that you can't really run any attacks because it has the attack stat that is similar to being hit by a ballon sword. But it looks like a good screener/supporter. Am I wrong to think this?
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