Ok and?
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v2 [Update on Post #5186]
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Ok and?
Also worth noting is that Clef would be the only thing capable of running Leftovers for passive recovery while being immune to hazard damage. Not a huge difference, but its passive recovery is basically riskless. The nerfs will hurt, but it'll still fill the same role as well as ever.
I believe Excadrill is coming back too, when means an uptick of Sand abuse. Clefable obviously loses to Excadrill, but it'll have trouble staying alive against the drill mole's teammates with nerfed recovery.
Evolite Duraludon becomes real. I hope you're all happy.
atrociously ugly design aside, i'd imagine that both duraludon and this guy are gonna fuck up some sort of tier. their typings are good and im guessing duraludon will fit more on bulky teams while archaludon will def fit on rain due to providing valuable resistances and its new move combining the effects of meteor beam and solar beam (except it charges in one turn under rain).
Pre Gen 4. What tier was Clefable?
*checks the tiers Clefable ended up in throughout each gen*
Huh. I guess after gen 1, it's stayed UU or above. That's kinda crazy
Clefable will never be bad. I didn't say Clefable has never been bad. There is a difference. I'm not talking history, I'm talking the present and foreseeable future.
Clefable? BAD
Gen 8? BAD
Stall? BAD
Outside Gliscor and Clef, I don't feel anything about any of the new mons to be honest, what I'm thinking about is how the meta is gonna become more, and more status oriented, who knows, maybe an actual good player is gonna pull up with Safeguard HO or something, I really hope scald is not coming back, aside from the fact that the move is one of the worst mistakes this franchise has seen, I feel like scald will make Baxcalibur more appealing, which in return, makes Clef more appealing, which in return, is gonna centralize the meta into the heaviest of heavy wall breakers because fuck clef
252 Atk Choice Band Baxcalibur Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 198-234 (50.2 - 59.3%) -- 79.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Baxcalibur: 222-264 (59.8 - 71.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
This is all food for thought, but this new DLC meta is for sure gonna change everything
Gen 8? BAD
Stall? BAD
Outside Gliscor and Clef, I don't feel anything about any of the new mons to be honest, what I'm thinking about is how the meta is gonna become more, and more status oriented, who knows, maybe an actual good player is gonna pull up with Safeguard HO or something, I really hope scald is not coming back, aside from the fact that the move is one of the worst mistakes this franchise has seen, I feel like scald will make Baxcalibur more appealing, which in return, makes Clef more appealing, which in return, is gonna centralize the meta into the heaviest of heavy wall breakers because fuck clef
252 Atk Choice Band Baxcalibur Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 198-234 (50.2 - 59.3%) -- 79.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Baxcalibur: 222-264 (59.8 - 71.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
This is all food for thought, but this new DLC meta is for sure gonna change everything
Not sure why people are so hateful over clef. Pretty good mon at stopping hyper offense spam.
Also it gets wish, so don't try to cope with "Chilly reception will GOOB clef!!!!! :DDDD"
If you want to continue to play mind-rotting ho slugfests every game, you might be interested in gen 5 ou.
Also it gets wish, so don't try to cope with "Chilly reception will GOOB clef!!!!! :DDDD"
If you want to continue to play mind-rotting ho slugfests every game, you might be interested in gen 5 ou.
This take? Bad.
On the subject of Clef vs Garg, it's a weird relationship because non calm mind clef is actually set up fodder for curse or id press Garg. Calm mind clef also may give fresh life to skeledirge too.
After being 20 pages behind and finally catching up on this thread, this is all I have to say
We Tera Water our Clefable if they start running Heavy Slam. Looking forward to DLC in a month!
I pray HOME moves aren't in a mass quantity for it. Otherwise, this is gonna be a trip to hell and back for OU
The only relevant things it lost are knock off, softboiled and toxic ig. Will still be able to run the ol pre-home gen 8 set of cm moonblast wish protect
I don't get why people think Scald is coming back. Game Freak went out of their way to make it so Pokemon you move up from old gens lose any move not in its learn set (fun fact, moving up Breloom makes it lose spore), essentially removed it from the game with a single Pokemon getting it now, and gave us a move in a similar space. Toxic, Knock Off, and Roost all has access to them gutted last Gen and that was never restored in the DLC and I doubt it will be different this time for Scald.
Milotic was shown with Scald in one of the DLC trailers. Given that it didn't previously learn the move via level up, it strongly hints at some moves at least possibly being distributed through tms.
Teleport no?
I think having Clef (and Reun as well) around will make the tier a bit healthier than it is now. Obviously Tera still limits defensive counterplay more than it adds it, but on its face Clef matches up very well into shit like Garg, Valiant, and Bax
Must have missed that. I do think if it comes back it's probably going to be in a much limited capacity similar to how Toxic, Roost, and Knock Off are now. I just honestly think GF thinks Scald is a mistake, similar to everything getting Toxic, and it really seemed as if they were trying to correct it so going back to it's Gen 8 availability would just be weird to me.
I'm thinking CM Tera Ground Clef with Tera Blast will be the norm to wreck these MUs. Ground is a good neutral type and has excellent coverage with Fairy, letting it do big damage to its other normal checks like Heatran too.
Tera Water is another option that others have mentioned which would be effective imo.
EDIT: All that said, I think Clef will not be too great in the new meta. Powercreep + Tera increasing damage + lower Moonlight PP will all contribute to it being less effective than in SS (though it will still be decent). Despite Psychic STAB being horrible, I think Reuniclus will be in a better position to succeed because its raw stats and bulk are much higher which can be leveraged with Tera to transition into other types more effectively. It will be significantly more Tera reliant due to Psychic-typing being bad, which could be a big issue.
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With Gamefreak, never attribute to competence that which can be attributed to laziness. The removal of old level up moves is most likely just because they didn't want to figure out how to implement them with the new move relearning system. The clip of Milotic using Scald suggests they never actually understood the move was busted and are likely bringing it back.
I don't know why people thought that Gamefreak would care about 6v6 Singles balance given the fact that Baton Pass not only still exists, but has had its distribution actively expanded over the past two generations.
I attributed burn's damage nerf to be a direct result of Scald making burn everywhere for two generations. And again, removing Scald from the TM list when it had been around for half the generations at that point AND making a move that was trying to fill a similar niche makes me think SOMEONE at Gamefreak felt to move was too good and wanted it gone.
I can totally see the old moves that are not in learn sets being gone simply because Gamefreak didn't want to do the work to make them accessible and it just happened to let them decouple current gens from mistakes of the past. That said, I do think it's more likely they were trying to force the issue with old moves since in order to use a Pokemon in Ranked Battles in Gen 8 you needed to have a NPC delete all moves a Pokemon currently had and get set to the current learn set. Removing the choice and forcing it on people does suck, but I do think the game is better with Scald and Toxic not omnipresent.
I agree Gamefreak largely leaves us to our own devices (I will say I think they should too, if something might be cool in VGC but busted as hell in singles it is better to just let us ban it then not do it) but I do think they'll give some attention here and there. I do admittedly know very little about VGC so please tell me if I'm wrong, but I don't think Protean and Libero were especially problematic abilities there so nerfing them would have been a thing for singles. Same with Toxic's access being gutted and I imagine Pursuit's removal as well. At the very least I certainly wouldn't think both those moves are as strong as they are in singles.
I was right when I went against the grain and said that Heatran would be a lot worse without Toxic (which was what made it close to unwallable) and Eruption (losing that significantly hindered offensive sets such as the lead Air Balloon set) as well as the additional checks introduced this gen even though people were saying that Heatran was top tier since time immemorial and that that would remain the case.
I'm calling it now that Clefable will be significantly worse without Softboiled and Knock Off now that it has to rely on Moonlight or Wish and Protect (which is exploitable with the many powerful setup sweepers in the tier) and will have fewer options to make progress with given how free Knock Off used to be. Encore being common this generation is another trend Clef hates. Gholdengo is also Clefable's biggest nightmare and is roughly at 30% usage. I think if Clefable stays OU this generation that it will hover around the 5-7%ish mark in usage. Clefable will retain a niche, but its place in OU will be less prominent.
I'm calling it now that Clefable will be significantly worse without Softboiled and Knock Off now that it has to rely on Moonlight or Wish and Protect (which is exploitable with the many powerful setup sweepers in the tier) and will have fewer options to make progress with given how free Knock Off used to be. Encore being common this generation is another trend Clef hates. Gholdengo is also Clefable's biggest nightmare and is roughly at 30% usage. I think if Clefable stays OU this generation that it will hover around the 5-7%ish mark in usage. Clefable will retain a niche, but its place in OU will be less prominent.
Agreed. The same can even be said for Landorus to an extent. Though I am just glad that toxic isn't widespread anymore because that shit's always been so cheesy. It allows mons to cheese thru stuff they shouldn't be able to like with Heatran against Garchomp or Landorus, or Keldeo against Jellicent. I hope it stays this way because fuck toxic. It only made the meta so toxic
What's the difference with moonlight anyway? Softboiled and all other recovery moves now have 8 pp which is the same as moonlight
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