Roost is a 50/50 I'd say. It is largely exclusive to birds, but they gave it to Sal this Gen and a few other non-birds have it too. TONS of stuff gets Defog by breeding (I just learned Conkeldurr did last Gen for example) so I think it has a real chance there at least. I'm personally curious about Toxic since it is a scorpion and at least from a flavor stand point it makes sense to get the move. Toxic also had a number of Pokemon get it added to their level up or egg moves list when it was purged in Gen 8 so I can see it being one of the few Pokemon with access to the move now too. If it does lose Roost and gets Toxic I wonder if a set of EQ, Knock Off, Protect, and Toxic could work to get more turns healing with Poison Heal and chipping stuff down with Toxic.
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v2 [Update on Post #5186]
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Roost is a 50/50 I'd say. It is largely exclusive to birds, but they gave it to Sal this Gen and a few other non-birds have it too. TONS of stuff gets Defog by breeding (I just learned Conkeldurr did last Gen for example) so I think it has a real chance there at least. I'm personally curious about Toxic since it is a scorpion and at least from a flavor stand point it makes sense to get the move. Toxic also had a number of Pokemon get it added to their level up or egg moves list when it was purged in Gen 8 so I can see it being one of the few Pokemon with access to the move now too. If it does lose Roost and gets Toxic I wonder if a set of EQ, Knock Off, Protect, and Toxic could work to get more turns healing with Poison Heal and chipping stuff down with Toxic.
Not really. There's a fair bit of creativity within the sets that these Pokemon can run, and I think that's fine. I don't think creativity should be measured on "how many viable Pokemon we have in a meta" or "how centralized a metagame is". The reality is that as the pool of available Pokemon get smaller, the more concentrated a metagame becomes. That doesn't diminish the amount of creativity there is in a given metagame.
I think you can be creative with your offensive teams and have super viable teams without the need for these Pokemon honestly. The balance of the metagame itself is good and room for creativity is there. I just don't see many teams going out of their way to not use said Pokemon.
This just is false information. It literally does gain Knock Off by level up. And roost is already a TM in SV so it will get that almost guaranteed. Really it's just defog which is a big loss, and toxic which is also a big loss but it can use the heat fling (did this occasionally in BDSP).
Toxic orb fling acrobatics is real... keep this on dl.... cant have them find out...
Also roost hasnt been a tm since usum. thats why hydreigon
Teams in SV OU that aren’t HO require these in order to succeed in the tier from most important to least important.
-Tusks or Cinder (Sometimes Iron Treads) unless your running Boots spam.
-Second Gambit answer (Usually Molt, Zama, Valiant, Samu-H, etc)
-Speed Control (Priority, Booster, or Scarfers)
-Fairy check (Ghold, Molt, Glowking, Amoonguss, Pex)
-Ghost check (Ting-Lu, Garg, Tran, Gambit)
-Ground Immune (Zapdos, Lando, Dnite)
-Fighting Resist/Immunity (Valiant, Ghold, Glowking, Zappy)
-Wincon (Valiant, Dnite, Bax, Dozo)
-Bax check (Balloon Steels, Zama, Valiant, Dozo, Garg, Azu)
-Breaker (Bax, Hoopa. Samu-H)
-Garg check (Amoonguss, G-Knot Glowking, Covert Ghold)
-Electric Immune, preferably one that matches up well with Zapdos (Ting-Lu, Sandy Shocks, Clod, Treada, Gastro)
-Water Resist/Rain Check (Amoonguss, Washtom, Pex, Dnite, Bax, Dozo, Tera Water)
-Hazard Setter (Like half the tier does this, lmao)
-Pivot (Glowking, Pult, Sneasler, Cinder, Lando, Zappy)
That’s 15 things you need to account for when building a consistent SV OU team. Lets look at our options.
Tusk (Hazard Control/Wincon/Breaker/Electric Immune/Hazard Setter)
Gambit (Speed Control/Ghost Check/Wincon/Bax Check/Breaker)
Valiant (Second Gambit Answer/Speed Control/Fighting Resist/Wincon/Bax Check)
Pult (Speed Control (not really)/Fighting Immune/Breaker/Water Resist/Pivot)
Ghold (Fairy check/Fighting Immune/Wincon/Bax check/Breaker/Garg Check)
Bax (Speed Control/Wincon/Breaker/Water Resist)
Glowking (Fairy check/Fighting Resist/Fairy check/Pivot)
Ting-Lu (Ghost check/Electric Immune/Hazard Setter)
Zappy (Ground Immune/Fighting Resist/Breaker/Pivot)
Garg (Ghost check/Wincon/Bax check/Hazard Setter)
Enam (Speed Control/Ground Immune/Fighting Resist/Wincon/Breaker)
Amoonguss (Fairy check/Fighting Resist/Garg check/Water Resist)
Samu (Second Gambit Answer/Speed Control/Ghost check/Breaker/Water Resist/Hazard Setter)
Zama (Second Gambit Answer/Speed Control (not really)/Wincon/Bax check/Breaker)
Dnite (Second Gambit Answer/Speed Control/Ground Immune/Fighting Resist/Wincon/Breaker/Water Resist)
Sneasler (Speed Control/Fighting Resist/Wincon/Pivot)
Cinder (Hazard Control/Pivot)
Wake (Wincon/Breaker/Water Resist)
Toxapex (Fairy check/Fighting Resist/Water Resist)
Lando-T (Ground Immune/Fighting Resist/Breaker/Garg check/Electric Immune/Hazard Setter/Pivot)
Tran (Second Gambit Answer/Ghostcheck/Wincon/Bax check (with Balloon)/Breaker/Hazard Setter)
Dozo (Second Gambit Answer/Wincon/Bax check/Water Resist)
Luna (Ghost check/Breaker/Electric Immune)
Volcanion (Breaker/Water Immune)
Moon (Ghost check (more like a Ghold check)/Wincon/Breaker/Water Resist/Pivot)
Azu (Speed control/Fighting Resist/Wincon/Bax check/Breaker/Water Resist)
Washtom (Second Gambit Answer/Ground Immune/Breaker (NP sets)/Water Resist/Pivot)
Cress (Ground Immune/Fighting Resist/Wincon)
Hatt (Magic Bounce/Fighting Resist/Wincon)
Hoopa-U (Ghost check (only for Ghold)/Breaker)
Corv (Second Gambit Answer/Hazard Control (very shit at it)/Fairy check/Ground Immune/Bax check/Pivot)
Sandy (Breaker/Electric Immune/Hazard Setter/Pivot)
Glimm (Hazard Control (loses to Ghold too/Hazard Setter)
Moth (Second Gambit Answer/Speed Control/Fairy check (only for Valiant)/Fighting Resist/Wincon/Breaker)
Chomp (Breaker/Electric Immune/Hazard Setter)
Gren (Second Gambit Answer/Speed Control/Wincon/Breaker/Water Resist)
Meow (Speed Control/Water Resist/Hazard Setter/Pivot)
Molt (Second Gambit answer/Fairy check/Ghost check/Ground Immune/Fighting Resist/Pivot)
Clod (Fairy check/Ghost check/Fighting Resist/Electric Immune/Water Immune/Hazard Setter)
Seems to be a pretty good selection of mons from the OU tier, and that is without mentioning other non-OU mons viable in the tier and Tera. However, there are things we are lacking in the tier.
#1 Hazard Removal: I don’t think I need to explain this.
#2 Offensive Fairy Checks: A majority of Fairy checks outside of Glowking, Ghold, and Molt are rather passive. Not to mention most of them lose to Tera Steel Sub-CM Enam, which means you also need something that can outspeed and threaten OHKOs on it while being able to live a +1 hit from EP/Moonblast. Amoonguss needs to slot in Stomping Tantrum to beat it. Skele can hit Enam through Sub but isn’t fond of eating EP. Clod beats Tera Steel but without Pjab, it loses to Sub-CM anyways. This is prob the least talked about problem of the meta and its a consequence of the Volc ban and mons cut from the game like Melm, Cele, etc. (also the psychos who thought giving it EP was a good idea)
#3 Lack of consistent Garg checks: Just like with Enam checks, most of Garg’s checks are either Regen walls or require an item/moveslot. Covert Ghold has other benefits like dodging Discharge paralysis, but no Balloon means you miss out on a Bax check. Mons like Wake and Lando require Sub to beat it, but to do so, they need to safely switch in and assume the Garg player won’t go for Salt Cure. Things get more complicated with Tera and Curse/ID that let it dodge 2HKOs and break the sub effortlessly. Some Gargs run EQ to hit Glowking, requiring G-Knot and Tera Grass to 1v1 it. This is likely to be solved with Clef and Gliscor returning to the tier, but as of now, this is a teambuilding issue.
It is possible these issues will be resolved in the Teal Mask meta assuming Defog distribution rises, the legendary trio turns out to be part Poison, and Gliscor/Mandi/Clef coming back.
Just wanted to mention this, I've found a lot of success using Tera Fairy/Grass AV Iron Hands as a secondary fairy counter, because after tera it ha the bulk to tank most boosted fairy attacks and win the 1v1 or at the very least, stop a sweep. It also covers most other attackers in the tier, serving as a great pivot and psuedo-wall with Volt Switch and Drain Punch for recovery.
BOIS AND GRILLS
Is the king known as gambit banned?
Is the king known as gambit banned?
we'll know in a couple of days. Voting starts saturday
But it still has wish so its probably better to run wish over moonlight anyway despite having to wait a turn for the heal since clef can get heals more throughout a match and pass those wishes
Without knock off as an option, it doesn't have as much to do in one moveset, so wish + protect isnt as restricting. It would probably run coverage, cm, or rocks in the last slot.
So whats the point of clef then? Sure it's got Magic Guard, but if it can't knock why would it be threatening. Couldn't you just sit on it and set up?
Clef could use CM, TWave, it could also wishpass to more threatening teammates, set up stealth rocks, or even (if it's really starved for moves) try and be a disrupter with encore.
ahhh yes, more mindgames
Ok so It can either set up on you, or be a more bulky utility pivot
Yeah, basically. Another niche that I forgot is Trick + Sticky Barb, to basically be a boosted toxic with no immunities.
Except its not a degenerate mindgame where one blind guess loses you the game. Clef can run two viable abilities but its not going to bowl a team over by relying on its unpredictability. That's what the balanced type changing mechanic is for.
How good do you guys think Reuniclus will be? Cress has already shown us that Tera can save Psychic types with good stats/abilities/movepools from their shitty defensive typing, and it's retained all the moves it ever wants to run.
I think both AV and Phys def CM Reu can have a niche. Movepool + 2 great abilities on Regen and MGuard + Tera is still broken af.
ok so not only are a lot of these "Breakers" not real breakers, and stuff like hrott is somehow "speed control", I'ma just use the first example bc I don't have the time for that to show how shit this tier's role compression is
Tusk: can be bad or just mid at spinning based on set, still needs Cinderace court change for most teams, can't be solo removal
the only electric type relevant is zapdos which outspeeds and hurricanes tusk to death, it cannot be your "electric immunity" unless you like switching for 5 years around it with perfect prediction in favor of the zapdos before it just volt switches out into a breaker
for speed control you cant just list everything with priority as speed control, azu aqua jet is doing like 20% to Dragapult lmao
in general a lot of these mons just have super exploitable weaknesses that make them not really fit for most cores bc they actually end up losing anyways.
I am confused on what your talking about when you say Bax and Hoopa aren’t “real breakers”
Explain.
How is NP Ghold or offensive Lando not a breaker? The definition of a breaker is a mon that can tear open defensive cores and are generally difficult to switch into.
How is Glowking not a Fairy check? Colbur checks Valiant and EP doesn’t 2HKO unless Tera Ground or Specs.
I mentioned Priority cause alot of viable mons get it (Bax, Gambit, Azu, Dnite, etc). Speed control requires you to at least be able to outspeed booster Valiant or at worst, Tusks after a spin. Since the only mons that can outspeed booster Valiant are stuff like Scarf Meow or Sneasler, the other option is priority.
My point was most of these are top staples that can fulfill multiple roles. Molt checks the fairies and ghold while also being a fighting resist that can pivot via U-Turn. Thats already 4 holes covered with one mon, and thats without getting into its ability to check Gambit and Tusk. Bax is not only a strong breaker but a strong breaker with priority and a water resist. 3 holes covered.
Samu is a breaker because of its ability to break defensive cores with its strong Water/Dark coverage and Ceaseless Edge for Spikes meaning it makes consistent progress. It also comes with a ghost resist meaning it can switch into Ghold once or twice. I mentioned speed control cause yes, Samu does get Aqua Jet and Sucker.
Tusk is not a good electric immune, that is true. Apologies for the mistake, however things like Shocks, Treads, and Clod do constitute as strong electric immunes
Zapdos is the perfect mix of a breaker, pivot, ground immune, and fighting check. 4 holes covered at once.
Again, I don’t understand your argument here.
This. In this meta, I'm not sure if Reuniclus constitutes "bulky", but Tera gives it a lot of leeway to address its psychic typing (most notably Fairy). I think a Stored Power Sweeper with Magic Guard has a huge upside in dealing with bulkier teams way better than what Mew or GCuno can accomplish right now.
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...ss-round-5-voting.3725955/page-6#post-9736072
Kingambit remains legal, getting only 55% of the vote when it needed 60%
Kingambit remains legal, getting only 55% of the vote when it needed 60%
Finally, this may have been the least useful suspect in modern history. Sadly, the DLC news was going to end up with Kingambit likely legal in a matter of weeks even if banned now. This is even moot as it remains legal, but our focus will be shifting to this metagame very soon as this metagame expires.
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