the issue of people "needing to evaluate their choices more"? i suppose you're right, tiering action will never fix skill issues
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Metagame Terastallization Tiering Discussion, Part II [CLOSED FOR DLC]
- Thread starter Finchinator
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The point is that you shouldn't have been thinking about it. You should be preparing for oddball tera types about as much as you're preparing for Choice Scarf Jolly Enamorous-T to outspeed your Great Tusk.
At the end of the day, it's just more information given to each player, which means they have less room for expression. It's not really any better than a Tera-less environment, and if you enjoy building in a Tera meta, it might even be worse!
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ban tera>> ban tera blast >> leave tera unrestricted>>>>>>>> tera preview
tera preview is the final nail in the coffin for an already unplayable metagame, it remove part of the creavity and it does not solve the dumb scenarios where the sweeper can still get a free setup thanks to 50/50 coinflip tera or not
the suspect should be ban/dnb, any other "gentlemen agreement clause" similar to the sleep clause like
- tera preview
- only tera typing of the pokemon (like regi can only tera electric for damage boost, no more boltbeam)
- only one pokemon has tera, pre-declared
can turn into something similar to the current meta where every game is a gambit/bax sweep because i lost or won the mindgame or a gambit reverse sweep
tera preview is the final nail in the coffin for an already unplayable metagame, it remove part of the creavity and it does not solve the dumb scenarios where the sweeper can still get a free setup thanks to 50/50 coinflip tera or not
the suspect should be ban/dnb, any other "gentlemen agreement clause" similar to the sleep clause like
- tera preview
- only tera typing of the pokemon (like regi can only tera electric for damage boost, no more boltbeam)
- only one pokemon has tera, pre-declared
can turn into something similar to the current meta where every game is a gambit/bax sweep because i lost or won the mindgame or a gambit reverse sweep
all right, you've all convinced me that tera preview doesn't work. i am now in favor of no restriction. i hope you're happy with yourselves
Why are people unable to handle arguments in a mature way, how are any of these responses the correct way to have a discussion lmao? More and more people are open to discussing a Tera Blast ban, but just because you DON'T want that, you're choosing to conduct yourself like this
I agree with your points in terms of how Team preview is a good option and alleviates from the pressure of guessing one of 18 Tera types a Pokémon could possibly turn into BUT it is very obvious that Tera is inherently a creative mechanic and requires thought as to what you want your Tera to be and for what reason, which means that off-meta decisions can and will exist. You are unable to have the element of surprise when Tera Preview exists, even if you can plan for it better. The fact of the matter is what end would you prefer - less creativity but a more stable moment-to-moment decision making process or more creativity but you still need to prepare for vastly different scenarios?
Completely silly point the game is entirely different lmfao
(sorry for my English, I'm French)
The tera is really problematic.
When we talk about kingambit and we say it's a problem, I think above all that it's the tera that makes it problematic.
It doesn't matter how good or bad I am! If I know I can punish him with a Mach punch. I can create a game plan, I can anticipate actions and manage threats. But when he gets past him, I don't know if he'll change to a fairy type, or ghost, or fly, or even something nonsense! Bug ? Fire ? I go back to an additional chance factor and pokemon already has too much... Its placement becomes easy... The dynamax was too strong! But tera is blind game...
The tera is really problematic.
When we talk about kingambit and we say it's a problem, I think above all that it's the tera that makes it problematic.
It doesn't matter how good or bad I am! If I know I can punish him with a Mach punch. I can create a game plan, I can anticipate actions and manage threats. But when he gets past him, I don't know if he'll change to a fairy type, or ghost, or fly, or even something nonsense! Bug ? Fire ? I go back to an additional chance factor and pokemon already has too much... Its placement becomes easy... The dynamax was too strong! But tera is blind game...
This asinine logic could be used to attack every bit of meta development we've ever had.
"If you hate palafin go back to gen 8 end of discussion" See how silly it sounds?
The existence of other gens isn't an excuse to keep this one shitty.
While I am fine with eventually acting on Tera Blast, any Tera test before DLC would be bad.
We would either have to undo the result within a week or so after the test ends due to a massive metagame overhaul or we would have the status of a component of our core mechanic decided on a past-metagame suspect rather than anything pertaining to the current metagame once DLC hits.
This goes against the spirit of tiering and would generation diminishing, flawed returns regardless of the outcome.
This is partially moot as things like Volcarona may return to OU regardless, but also a suspect on Tera Blast in the actual post-DLC metagame, as opposed to prior, would give an actually fair perspective on things based off of what we will be looking at long-term. Doing so prior would be disingenuous to that long-term goal.
Could you elaborate on this please? Obviously comparing it to unbanning baton pass or Dynamax because DLC drops is a straw man argument but I don't see how if a move is deemed broken and banned, adding more Pokemon that could potentially abuse that broken move would somehow prevent that move from being broken and ban-worthy
so u really think people want tera banned because it creates a really strong interaction with some pokemons only (gambit, bax) and not because is by itself too strong?
in your opinion, adding to the tier more pokemons and a flying/ground pokemon will balance bax and valiant? there will be more variety rather than bax getting a free dance thanks to tera fairy/steel and a gambit reverse sweep?
community is asking a tera retest since forever, way before the volc quick ban or the zama suspect, since there will be another dlc before the end of 2023 this mean there will be no tera retest before january-february 2024? the points listed by you in the first post are still valid?
You have a metagame now that is a sitting duck; in a month’s time, this metagame will be history. You also have a metagame that will be fresh and adding dozens of things to it after that month. Testing anything in the former is entirely irrelevant and moot. The latter is what matters.
Having a potentially historic suspect test in the former would be an all-time bad decision. The metagame shift can very clearly dictate how things are perceived and what may be broken. Adding more Pokémon can make it more broken with more abusers, but also add more strategy for counterplay. It’s not a linear equation and framing it as such is, to put it bluntly, ignorant.
If this is the case, do you not think Dynamax could have been offered the same fate? (Not that I think it should've been)
Nothing in my post came close to saying this. Nothing in any of my posts did. Do not put words in my mouth.
My opinion is literally that having an all-time suspect test right before DLC and then adhering it to the DLC metagame is backwards and bad tiering. That’s not how it works and it never will work this way. Holding a suspect, if and when appropriate, in the actual metagame it will impact is always ideal. Nobody who knows tiering and the logistics behind it is lobbying for us to act now when we are approaching a dead metagame.
Comparing six months and something unconfirmed to one month and something confirmed is stupid. I have already publicly said we will happily discuss and look into more things once DLC drops. It’s not my fault you conveniently ignore this.
Dynamax isn’t comparable to Tera. It was banned with an overwhelming majority and pretty much everyone, aside from a ridiculously small fraction of people, wanted it to stay gone.
Because of this, we had a council vote on retesting it after a DLC rather than just retesting it as it likely would’ve been a waste with how clear of a majority we had. Sure enough, that council vote was unanimous. This was publicly logged as well at the time.
No, I am not committing to that. We will continue to discuss this year as I have said. It is possible we act sooner. It is possible we act later.
There is no plan or agenda formalized. We are going to continue to assess what the community says and how they feel.
lol u are always so defensive and passive-aggressive, i just made a simple question, this is the answers i was looking (without quoting all your post):
You ignored a key point and I stated that you ignored it. That is not me being passive-aggressive. That is me being matter-of-fact.
i just made 2-maybe 3 questions u was free to ignore them, relax finch and love your pokemons
like i said i had all the answers i needed, have a nice summers my g
Let's take a look at one of the examples given in that thread, Tera Grass Glimmora that doesn't have Energy Ball. An argument given was that Glimmora can run Tera Grass and not even run Energy Ball, and achieve the same effect as running Energy Ball would since you'd need to switch a Grass-weak Mon out if you see Tera Grass Glimmora come in as you'd assume it carries Energy Ball. However, if a Glimmora with an undisclosed Tera type and moveset switches into a Grass-weak Mon, a player aware of common sets would assume they carry Energy Ball either way. They're considering the risk of Energy Ball even without Tera Grass implying it's there, even if it isn't. Adding the certainty that the Tera type is Grass does not change the fact that a Glimmora switching into a Grass-weak Pokémon could hit it with Energy Ball. A player can bluff a set with or without Tera type disclosed, and running a Tera type to bluff having a move that you don't is generally suboptimal and worse than simply running the corresponding move.
another "50/50" those against preview are concerned about is, "what if a Pokémon with a Tera type that threatens me switches in? Should I assume it will Tera or not?" A Pokémon terastalizing into a type that blanks your attack or hard walls what you currently have out is a risk that an informed player should be aware of either way. For example, Baxcalibur typically runs Fairy or Dragon (or Ground) as its Tera type. If no Pokémon on Bax's team has Terastalized yet you'd be cautious about using a Dragon move on it as it could turn Fairy at any point. This is a consideration that should be taken whether Baxcalibur has a little pink bow next to its name or not. However that doesn't mean you should never use a Dragon move on it, because you don't know when or if it will Terastalize.
I understand that Tera Preview still allows these "guessing games" to exist but it significantly decreases the number of options you'd have to account for. I would say that turning the guessing game from "when will what Pokémon Tera and into what" to "when will what Pokémon Tera" and being given information that makes guessing Tera timing much easier, but still does not guarantee it will happen, is an improvement. It does change the mental game, but I would argue that although it allows players to deceive each other in certain new ways, these new ways are much easier to account for with less options on the table.
Legit question, if "just play an old generation" is a legitimate response to a tier being unbalanced (Smogon's flagship tier, I might add) then what is the point of tiering action at all? Why bother balancing a metagame (or in this case, Smogon's flagship metagame) when others exist?
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Stupidest comment in this entire thread. You're the only person who needs to go back somewhere my g.
I don't want to get hostile, but it is only logical to have any sort of suspecting on tera or restrictions after we see what the meta looks like after the release of the DLC. That's why the council unbanned some mons like Chien-Pao post HOME to see if there would be a difference with all the added threats.
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