Ah shit here we go again
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v3
- Thread starter TPP
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Kinda curious which ones are being considered but fwiw Gambit, Blood Moon, and Wellspring are at the top in my mind.
I still think Gambit is broken but highly doubt it’s being suspected again already so that leaves the other two.
My personal guess is that Wellspring is going to be the one suspected next week because Water/Grass is very good both offensively and defensively, it has a lot of options, and from my experience it’s been way more centralizing/meta warping than Blood Moon.
That being said, Blood Moon has basically no consistent switch ins so I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s banned later on.
i personally see waterpon as top-tier but not broken, but this view is subject to change if enough evidence comes up to convince me. what i have to wonder, though, is this: if waterpon is banned, how will that affect the viability of rockpon? rockpon has a way worse defensive typing, but she's much harder to switch into—grass/rock/fighting is close to perfect coverage, so she can run swords dance more capably (although one of the very few mons that can switch into that combo happens to be… gholdengo). between waterpon and rockpon, people are going to choose waterpon every time, but if she goes, do you think rockpon has the potential to become overwhelming? are all masked ogerpon forms too strong for ou?
“Way worse defensive typing”
I love Grass/Rock offensively and defensively, Rocks hit and defend against Ice, Fire, Flying, and Bug types, and Grass hits and defends against Water and Ground types. Mad synergy there. Plus having Ivy as a fantastic stab move, you can actually use Rocks with no fear of missing. Sturdy is a free Focus Sash, so you can get SD off without fear of dying. I love this mon.
sturdy doesn't help that much when it's impossible to wear boots and most viable playstyles are some form of hazard stack
I'M WHEEZING SO HARD MAN, HOW CAN YOU PULL OUT THESE QUALITY OF MEMES?
Ok but in all seriously, for not be the guy only known to comments and do shitty jokes that still sometimes manage to get 5 reactions somehow, I as most of the community think that these mons are gonna be on the radar:
Wellspring already took the place of Heathflame, and even if isn't with the brokeness or offense the latter unleashed on the tier, her Spk. Def. boost once Tera'd can be useful to tank an extra hit or even avoid to be rkilled, and the Grass/Water is actually solid, and even if Synthesis used in Rain teams isn't so good, exactly in Rain teams can open hole against stall, as Water is one of the best offensives typing, and even if her can be easily knocked out by other offensive threats and also faster than her, exactly for being forced to use more offensive threats for her makes the meta even more than what it is, supported by the veil, But also makes good in BO teams, which we know in this meta struggle so much so... rare BO W?
Manaphy is in a weird spot rn, Tail glow or Take Hearth if you don't use it in Rain teams and want to heal para or toxic, make it extremely strong, considering can also learn Acid Armor for Stored Power sets, but the powercreep the latest gens, especially this one has, shows how even with 100/100/100 of bulk and 100 of speed make you really vulnerable to most of the common threaths and also easily rkilled, I think that this mon has a chance to drop to UU and then becoming UUBL, but some people will still use it for things the mon has and still will be in OU, as in Rain teams (take a shot for every time I said Rain teams only in this post) can still have its niche.
BM Ursa is in the same spot of Manaphy, but better. 135 of Spk. Atk. with a STAB 140 that can't be used the next turn makes it almost the perfect one-hit ko machine even to Ghost types thanks to its ability as Ground allows to hit Steel and Rock super effective instead resisted, and the only OU mon that resist both is Corviknight which even that good since it's a physical defenser against a special attacker, the only things holding it back is its speed that compared to that of normal Ursaluna is worse for TR teams, and its special defense, but CM sets can help it boosting as dealing more damage, and a priority in Vacuum Wave can be really useful to deal the final hit or forcing a switch to not lose that mon, also thanks to its ability.
Should I really say why Kingambit?
And this is the list of my major suspects, I want to conclude this saying how is interesting that Gliscor is generating many opinions in the playerbase for itss playstyles, since even if it losts Roost, Protect can still be really useful, as it got both Spikes and T-Spikes, in a meta so much focused on them, and last but not for importance, its SD + Facade sets.
counterpoint:
+6 252 SpA Tera Water Manaphy Surf vs. 112 HP / 0 SpD Kingambit: 748-880 (202.7 - 238.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Black Glasses Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tera Water Manaphy: 232-274 (68 - 80.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
you don't even need to get to +6, you're guaranteed an ohko on that gambit set at +2. on the other hand, if gambit is tera dark then you have to win the sucker punch mindgame or you just get killed (well, you get killed 43.8% of the time)
Maybe this is mid ladder syndrome but manaphy has never been anything massively threatening, or even that great. It's a fairly decent mon, can get some good use out of screens and rain teams but nothing fantastic. Wouldn't be surprised if it stayed ou, but also wouldn't be surprised if it fell to uu/uubl. It has issues with finding openings to set up, and lets in waterpon free, who can threaten to sd if you switch out or just kills manaphy.
The only way you're realistically going to +6 is either your opponent is very bad and letting you set up multiple take hearts, or you're running tail glow which cuts manaphys bulk and leaves it to be outsped and revenge killed. Not only that, but it needs the rain/veil support to not get overwhelmed fast and especially outside of rain it gets wittled down by gliscor toxic.
KamenOH
formerly DynamaxBestMeta
Tail glow does it in 2
"but tail glow cuts manaphy's bulk and makes it easy to revenge kill!"
yeah, well, my manaphy was able to ohko your entire team before you finished that sentence. how's that for having your bulk cut
re read my post
I know you only spent 2 seconds trying to make a funny joke, but this is such a weird one to make. the whole point of it being easy to revenge kill is that it doesn't usually "ohko your entire team". it snags a kill and then it dies or is forced out, and the latter can be very bad when we have mons that thrive out of turns given like that like... waterpon. Or any of the pons.
manaphy has 100s cross the board, which is actually pretty good bulk and speed. it outspeeds gliscor's base 95 and can easily OHKO it due to its Sp. Def being shit. Waterpon dies to an Energy Ball or two and Manaphy resists its Ivy Cudgel, and it can't even be toxic'd because of Hydration in rain or Take Heart out of it. this fucker is pretty much a balanced (somewhat) Caly-S that can get max Sp. Atk in two turns. not to mention it can also run Baton Pass and give said +6 to something like a Speed Quark Drive Iron Moth.
Baton pass is banned, so nonfactor
also base 100 means its good, but not exceptional, in other words manaphy typically is only taking one or two hits from something before going down even if its good at forcing trades.
Manaphy shines on rain most sure, but its not unmanagable there either.
Yes manaphy is good, but I doubt its busted.
Bloodmoon ursa deserves a suspect though, it cleaves through teams in ways base Ursaluna wishes it could, blood moon + what is essentially scrappy is insane, and it forces trades even better than normal Ursaluna
Waterpun runs horn leech and power whip, which outspeed and ohko manaphy. Manaphy also can't freely run energy ball depending on the set. Even if it does, it only guarantees an OHKO at 4+, and you'll probably be dead before reaching that or getting the chance to attack.
Hydration relies on rain being up, which is good on rain teams, useless on veil teams and anything else. take heart is mediocre as it opens you to be dealt with attackers that can damage creep your boosts.
Baton pass is banned, and maxing sp atk is often not worth it as manaphy can get 2hkoe'd or revenge killed when going for it, unless you specifically set up conditions for it, which require really good prediction game or just being a lot better than your foe, but then you can argue that about a lot of mons this gen.
Its a good rain abuser, and can snowball if you let it set up for too long, but those are not some exclusively rare abilities in this gen
I want to speed tail with orthworm once I think that'd be really funny
bro is unaware that baton pass is banned
that being said if manaphy is as broken as you say, why isn't it banned in previous generations (namely 7) where it's much better due to having z-moves and actually good rain partners. the outcry from stall players to ban manaphy in gen 7 does not count
because previous generations (namely 7) just didn't ban things. if we still had abr in charge, we'd only now be getting to the chien-pao suspect
Also, take heart didn't exist before this gen so it had more issues with status like toxic if it wanted to get for the bulkier set up (i have no opinion on manaphy this gen btw)
chien pao might have actually been balanced in 7 because no tera + actually good terrain setters to enable revenge killing. this is purely theoretical obviously but 7 is an outlier when it comes to balancing because, as I've said before, it's the only time "broken checks broken" has actually ever worked. Kartana for example, is strong, but it's frail and often times not as strong as you want it to be without setup, which also combines with *severe* 4MSS. It also just cannot take a special hit, which is not great when ash greninja is as stupid good as it is, in rain at that.
The beauties of Sleep Clause. Unless your team is *only* physical attackers you should either switch in an expendable member to be put to sleep, and then switch in either a pokemon faster (meowscarda, greninja, talon, dragapult etc etc) which can just OHKO the mon (meow ONLY if running banded/if full hazards are setup -t spikes). Or just bring out a mixed attacker that can conformably deal with a SS mon.
Jumpluff, the fastest of the pokemon you mentioned (disregarding driftblim if it doesn't have its unburden proc which can be dealt with with the mons mentioned above) get OHKO'd by every mon I mentioned
252+ Atk Choice Band Protean Meowscarada Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Jumpluff: 288-339 (81.3 - 95.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Protean Meowscarada Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Jumpluff: 288-339 (98.9 - 116.4%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Jumpluff: 780-924 (268 - 317.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Jumpluff: 277-327 (95.1 - 112.3%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Jumpluff: 282-332 (96.9 - 114%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Jumpluff: 380-450 (130.5 - 154.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 Atk Talonflame Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Jumpluff: 288-342 (98.9 - 117.5%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Protean Meowscarada Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Jumpluff: 288-339 (98.9 - 116.4%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Jumpluff: 780-924 (268 - 317.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Jumpluff: 277-327 (95.1 - 112.3%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Jumpluff: 282-332 (96.9 - 114%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Jumpluff: 380-450 (130.5 - 154.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 Atk Talonflame Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Jumpluff: 288-342 (98.9 - 117.5%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
As someone who has been playing a ton of webs since DLC dropped, I don't get the Ribombee hype. Every webs mon is garbage, but the way in which they are garbage is what you're picking and choosing for your team. Bee's speed really doesn't matter, your entire team is built around speed control and its neat options and comparatively nice statline don't do as much to achieve that goal as other, generally worse Pokemon. The sunny day tech is nice, especially with how much of a pain weather/veil can be rn, but being a faster setter than every spinner but booster treads on an archetype that should be carrying heavy spinblock potential is tough to justify. When I build with bee it's less of a webs team and more 5 mons + ribombee, but if bug gets to cook its teammates really do appreciate it.
If you're truly sticky, I think there's a case to be made for almost every setter but Kricketune and Leavanney. (Possible Cooking potential with Kricketune, they try to out-offense you off rip and you're there to webs and die often anyway it's exclusive access to Perish Song forces them to start switching) Even Ariados has exclusive access to Toxic/Toxic Thread and shared access to Knock, Sucker, and T-Spikes with Spidops. Insomnia ain't a bad ability for a lead either. Spidops ability to maybe get up a couple hazards before dying is huge, especially because it's one of two web setters (other than fake cricket guy) who doesn't just super fold to Cinderace. The bunny is everywhere, and it always has its shoes on. It's the Pokemon I've struggled to keep my webs against the most, let alone any other hazards. The other two clearers that can get webs away in front of Balloon Joe (near mandatory inclusion for webs) are Maus and Weezing-G, and they are much more comfortable to play around than Cinder. Weezing usually gets popped by something that has already setup, and -1 Maus really struggles to find an opportunity to get in and set up. Cinderace comes in and ruins your day if you're not set up with something with really good priority (Mr. Craw and Dnite still fit in priority well even with webs support, most other Pokemon enabled by webs want coverage more) or something to boost speed (Dragon dancers, Kommo-o, Quark/Proto Guys). Maybe this is less of an issue with Bee teams and people running pult with webs for whatever reason, but I'm running webs to make things 252+ and click. Tera-Water Masq and Spidops are my favorite answer to the rabbit so far. Masq stun spores, intims, and can set up with new stab Surf or Hydro. Spidops knocks, taunts, and can even circle throw or setup more hazards. Both of them become incredibly reliable switch-ins to Cinder for the rest of the game which is more to do than most sashed bugs. It's a bold usage of tera but Cinderace can be such a threat to this hazard reliant a build, its not much more taxing than tera steel or ghost to block glim or spin.
I could talk more abt the archetype and might again later, but that's the biggest thing. Ribombee good, but definitely not an auto-include. Other notable observations would be the fact that SpAtk Booster Moth 6-0s teams with a little luck, the right coverage, and their team at -1 (conditional, but a condition worth gunning for, the luck isn't even all that necessary) and Sinistcha's amazing spinblocking/elephant slaying abilities are so nice for webs with CM Matcha Gotcha being a much more menacing set when that base 70 speed isn't kneecapping the mon.
If you're truly sticky, I think there's a case to be made for almost every setter but Kricketune and Leavanney. (Possible Cooking potential with Kricketune, they try to out-offense you off rip and you're there to webs and die often anyway it's exclusive access to Perish Song forces them to start switching) Even Ariados has exclusive access to Toxic/Toxic Thread and shared access to Knock, Sucker, and T-Spikes with Spidops. Insomnia ain't a bad ability for a lead either. Spidops ability to maybe get up a couple hazards before dying is huge, especially because it's one of two web setters (other than fake cricket guy) who doesn't just super fold to Cinderace. The bunny is everywhere, and it always has its shoes on. It's the Pokemon I've struggled to keep my webs against the most, let alone any other hazards. The other two clearers that can get webs away in front of Balloon Joe (near mandatory inclusion for webs) are Maus and Weezing-G, and they are much more comfortable to play around than Cinder. Weezing usually gets popped by something that has already setup, and -1 Maus really struggles to find an opportunity to get in and set up. Cinderace comes in and ruins your day if you're not set up with something with really good priority (Mr. Craw and Dnite still fit in priority well even with webs support, most other Pokemon enabled by webs want coverage more) or something to boost speed (Dragon dancers, Kommo-o, Quark/Proto Guys). Maybe this is less of an issue with Bee teams and people running pult with webs for whatever reason, but I'm running webs to make things 252+ and click. Tera-Water Masq and Spidops are my favorite answer to the rabbit so far. Masq stun spores, intims, and can set up with new stab Surf or Hydro. Spidops knocks, taunts, and can even circle throw or setup more hazards. Both of them become incredibly reliable switch-ins to Cinder for the rest of the game which is more to do than most sashed bugs. It's a bold usage of tera but Cinderace can be such a threat to this hazard reliant a build, its not much more taxing than tera steel or ghost to block glim or spin.
I could talk more abt the archetype and might again later, but that's the biggest thing. Ribombee good, but definitely not an auto-include. Other notable observations would be the fact that SpAtk Booster Moth 6-0s teams with a little luck, the right coverage, and their team at -1 (conditional, but a condition worth gunning for, the luck isn't even all that necessary) and Sinistcha's amazing spinblocking/elephant slaying abilities are so nice for webs with CM Matcha Gotcha being a much more menacing set when that base 70 speed isn't kneecapping the mon.
Loved your post. My personal favourite webs setter is Vikavolt. It's on the bulkier side of available webs setters, like Spidops, but unlike all the others, it can actually deal damage with its base 145 spatk. Sure, it does have the same issues with Ace as the others, and its base 43 speed makes it hard to make use of the webs, but if I decide to volt switch out with Vikavolt (which, also, I like slow turns) I know it isn't necessarily dead weight later on and can help make progress.
All this being said, I totally agree about your overall views on webs. I have yet to make it work and the playstyle as a whole feels bad rn. I just prefer Vikavolt if I give the archetype a shot.
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