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Sadly, I feel like everything you’re all saying is true… (I find myself agreeing with almost every post… such a terrible situation…)

It’s pretty much unavoidable that Hamas will face [justifiable] denouncements over this, and unavoidable that civilian casualties (especially Palestinian ones) will pile high. And it also seems unavoidable that the right wing militant government of Israel that had the most power to prevent this condition will only get more politically powerful.
 
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?? Even as I type this, the Israel counter attack has already killed/injured more Palestinians than Israeli settlers and soldiers etc etc. IMO, criticism of Israel has been p quiet for decades, i.e, no one can deny the permissive obsequiousness of 'the international community' to Israel's ethnic cleansing project.

Lastly, many Palestinian factions appear to be working in coordination on this uprising so I'm not sure what precisely Hamas in particular 'as a political entity existing' has to do w it.

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I'm an Israeli-Canadian and have family living there, living this experience now. I'm so tired of self-righteous progressive Americans spouting off their misinformed opinion after watching a 10-minute Vice video.


On one side, you have a democracy with progressive social policies such as trans right protections, gay rights, and a thriving music/entertainment industry. It's also a centre of commerce and major tech innovator.


You need to wake up and realize who's on the right side of history. If you ever doubt this, consider this: would you rather host a gay pride parade in Gaza City or Tel Aviv?
 
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im a jewish trans gay person, but go off queen: are there are no gay/trans Palestinians?

https://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/23/...-israels-use-of-gays-as-a-messaging-tool.html

Do you live in Palestine or do you live in a comfy Western nation with basic democracy, freedoms, and human rights protections? Because while Palestine might shy away from outright banning LGBT people it, like many middle eastern nations, has an absurdly bad track record when it comes to human rights, especially trans or gay people.

If you are willing to criticize the awful treatment of the Palestinian people by Israel you should also criticize the literal glorification of the slaughter of innocents that is happening right now. It might be a hard thing to accept but it's entirely possible that actors on both sides are in the wrong and you can criticize both. Peaceful decolonization has happened plenty of times in the past and Hamas targeting the civilians of a military power on its border is only going to result in constant air strikes and crackdowns that cause the Palestinians to suffer, causing greater Hamas support etc. It's a cycle that isn't going to be easily broken.

?? Even as I type this, the Israel counter attack has already killed/injured more Palestinians than Israeli settlers and soldiers etc etc

1) Hamas intentionally sets up their offices, missile launchers etc in civilian apartments using human casualties as propaganda and regular innocent people as human shields.

2) According to both Israeli and Palestinian sources the death toll has been MUCH higher in Israel. Please do not spread misinformation especially when you are uninformed. In any case raw death toll might possibly be the most childish view of who is right or wrong someone can make in a conflict.

Unfortunately the Israel / Palestine conflict has been around since at least the 40s and while young Western millennials might happily simplify this as a black and white issue in reality this is a thing our great grandfathers were dealing with. It's an incredibly long conflict with so many people being victimized that it's a mistake to just call one side bad without criticizing the other. I'm sorry, I get that Palestinian citizens have been the victim of decades of Israeli oppression. However Israeli citizens have been the victim of genocidal invasions, rocket bombardment, kidnappings, and murder over that same time period. A real solution to this conflict isn't going to come from someone on a Pokémon forum saying one side is bad while blatantly ignoring the crimes of the other. Both sides are fucking terrible and a peaceful solution isn't going to come from a bunch of Hamas gunmen shooting random people waiting at a bus stop.
 
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you'll note the users shamelessly flaming me are only repeating points ('human shields', pinkwashing, 'settlers are civilians') literally already addressed itt, every single one of the talking points. they only post to flame because they cannot process their own difficult feelings/discomfort that the facts of this matter bring up.
 
Do you live in Palestine or do you live in a comfy Western nation with basic democracy, freedoms, and human rights protections where you can make absurd claims where you support civilian massacres because "they deserved it because their government is bad"? Do you know anything at all about the rights of LGBT in Palestine or is your entire political viewpoint some cartoonish mix of aggressively leftist views where the West is bad and anything else gets away with no criticism. Because while Palestine might shy away from outright banning LGBT people it, like many middle eastern nations, has an absurdly bad track record when it comes to human rights, especially trans or gay people.

If you are willing to criticize the awful treatment of the Palestinian people by Israel you should also have some self respect to also criticize the literal glorification of the slaughter of innocents that is happening right now. It might be a hard thing to accept but it's entirely possible that actors on both sides are in the wrong and you can criticize both. Peaceful decolonization has happened plenty of times in the past and Hamas targeting the civilians of a military power on its border is only going to result in constant air strikes and crackdowns that cause the Palestinians to suffer, causing greater Hamas support etc. It's a cycle that isn't going to be easily broken.

1) Hamas intentionally sets up their offices, missile launchers etc in civilian apartments using human casualties as propaganda and regular innocent people as human shields.

2) According to both Israeli and Palestinian sources the death toll has been MUCH higher in Israel. Please do not spread misinformation especially when you are uninformed. In any case raw death toll might possibly be the most childish view of who is right or wrong someone can make in a conflict.

Unfortunately the Israel / Palestine conflict has been around since at least the 40s and while young Western millennials might happily simplify this as a black and white issue in reality this is a thing our great grandfathers were dealing with. It's an incredibly long conflict with so many people being victimized that it's a mistake to just call one side bad without criticizing the other. I'm sorry, I get that Palestinian citizens have been the victim of decades of Israeli oppression. However Israeli citizens have been the victim of genocidal invasions, rocket bombardment, kidnappings, and murder over that same time period. A real solution to this conflict isn't going to come from someone on a Pokémon forum saying one side is bad while blatantly ignoring the crimes of the other. Both sides are fucking terrible and a peaceful solution isn't going to come from a bunch of Hamas gunmen shooting random people waiting at a bus stop.

1. The liberal conception of "human rights" is a complete farce used to uphold white supremacy worldwide and bestow support to allies of the West, while taking it away from the Global South, and doesn't account for an enormous amount of variables and factors that many others in this thread have mentioned.

2. See Frantz Fanon, when the violence-absorbing passive role is shed, decolonization can start to take root with masses. The mindset that it must be a peaceful process is rooted in a desire to uphold the status quo. You would have told the slaves of Haiti to hold hands with their masters and find common ground. Of course, that shouldn't even matter to you, because they already fucking tried non-aggression. The Great March of Return in 18-19 made abundantly clear their plight, the IDF killed over 200 of them and injured thousands from behind the prison walls. Foreign aid continued to overwhelmingly flow in both monetary and poltiical value to Israel.

3. This by definition is not random violence, territory is actively being taken back and the front continues to push past Sderot. There is a goal, it is organized, many groups within Palestine have fallen under the Hamas banner (including legitimate populist groups like the PFLP and DFLP) in order to concentrate military power and unite support across their own people and in the MENA area; already we have seen Yemeni, Lebanese, and others rally with them. In addition, negotiating with a Hamas-led organization is legitimately easier for the Israeli government than it would be when there are more power vacuums inside the country and split support amongst the people.

4. "You can't fight back, or it will cause further damage to your people / cause." I wonder where the logic gap is here? Maybe because their people are already being broken daily? This is a question commonly posed by imperialists in all sorts of sectors (electoral politics, class struggle, respectability, revolutions, etc.) as an attempt to trap people willing to fully support something into a pre determined path that is set by the guiding hand of the ruling class.

It’s pretty much unavoidable that Hamas will face [justifiable] denouncements over this, and unavoidable that civilian casualties (especially Palestinian ones) will pile high. And it also seems unavoidable that the right wing militant government of Israel that had the most power to prevent this condition will only get more politically powerful.

What is unjustifiable about a people who have been squeezed all their lives, who have raised children who have never been allowed outside the Gaza Strip, breaking free from their prison? How on earth is it fair to blame them for the potential rise in Fascism that might come from their attempts at liberation?
 
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According to Human Rights Watch, Israeli military and border police murdered 34 children in West Bank in 2022. They've probably killed several times that number in the last 2 days bombing civillian buildings in Gaza.

Human Rights Watch investigated the case of Mahmoud al-Sadi, 17, killed by Israeli forces as he walked to school near the Jenin refugee camp on November 21, 2022. The Israeli military did not address his killing specifically but said its forces had been conducting arrest raids in the camp, during which they exchanged fire with Palestinian fighters. However, the nearest exchange of fire occurred at one of the alleged fighter’s homes, about 320 meters away from where Mahmoud was shot, based on residents’ statements.

Mahmoud stood by the side of a road, waiting for the sounds of shooting in the distance to stop, and was not holding any weapon or projectile, a witness said and a security-camera video that Human Rights Watch reviewed showed. After the distant shooting had stopped and the Israeli forces were withdrawing, a single shot fired from an Israeli military vehicle roughly 100 meters away struck Mahmoud, the witness said. No Palestinian fighters were in the area, the witness said. Mahmoud was killed a block away from the street where Israeli forces killed the journalist Shireen Abu Aqla on May 11, 2022.


As a brown subhuman he probably deserved it though. He probably didn't even support trans rights!
 
On a final note, the behaviour of some of the users in this thread -- particularly Accel , KM , hs, Perry and others -- is shocking, especially since these are people I've enjoyed interacting with in the past. Posting offensive pictures on my profile for my perspective/thoughts on this conflict instead of engaging in discussion is childish, inappropriate, and classless. It's a shame that social media has removed people's ability to empathize and treat people with respect. I hope those I've tagged can understand this.
I don't ever post on this forum, and I don't think I will with my thoughts, but I'd like to go a bit further with this because this type of behavior does not deserve to go unnoticed.

KM VictorySymbol LpZ Accel sensei axew Matheus_22k Tatsumaa Askov CDW Enrique Aliss Xrn zoe HANTSUKI Bouff Beraldo ishtar Kate Bakugames gum Sage Perry Hyogafodex Rewer avarice spellcaster Chloe hs

Each and every one of you should be absolutely ashamed of yourself. I do not care about politics right now. I do not care about your opinions on the current situation. What I do care about is that THIS is targeted harassment of a user because of their ethnicity and identity on their wall. As a religious Jew myself, I think it's appalling to see people that I've teamed with, that I've had positive interactions with, and that I would call friends would sink to what I see as blatant anti Semitism, even if you don't see it that way. How would each of you feel if I went ahead and posted memes mocking your identity on your walls, whether sexual, religious, or national?

I'd like to tag the mods of this forum in dave and WaterBomb to facilitate all of this and the forum staff I currently see online in EviGaro, Estarossa, and ausma, sorry if these tags cause any unwanted headaches or if you guys aren't the right people to tag. On all my time on this site, which I knew wasn't exactly friendly towards Jews, I have never felt more alienated and disgusted than I do right now. Being told that we "100% deserve what's happening to you, you racist piece of shit" in the last post by Ren has pushed me towards feeling like a post like this needs to be made. For the comfort and safety of other Jewish users on this site, I'd like some action taken of any kind, thank you.

If any user called out has an issue with me doing so, please dm me respectfully instead of harassing me on my wall, I'd really appreciate it :)[/user]
 
I don't ever post on this forum, and I don't think I will with my thoughts, but I'd like to go a bit further with this because this type of behavior does not deserve to go unnoticed.

KM VictorySymbol LpZ Accel sensei axew Matheus_22k Tatsumaa Askov CDW Enrique Aliss Xrn zoe HANTSUKI Bouff Beraldo ishtar Kate Bakugames gum Sage Perry Hyogafodex Rewer avarice spellcaster Chloe hs

Each and every one of you should be absolutely ashamed of yourself. I do not care about politics right now. I do not care about your opinions on the current situation. What I do care about is that THIS is targeted harassment of a user because of their ethnicity and identity on their wall. As a religious Jew myself, I think it's appalling to see people that I've teamed with, that I've had positive interactions with, and that I would call friends would sink to what I see as blatant anti Semitism, even if you don't see it that way. How would each of you feel if I went ahead and posted memes mocking your identity on your walls, whether sexual, religious, or national?

I'd like to tag the mods of this forum in dave and WaterBomb to facilitate all of this and the forum staff I currently see online in EviGaro, Estarossa, and ausma, sorry if these tags cause any unwanted headaches or if you guys aren't the right people to tag. On all my time on this site, which I knew wasn't exactly friendly towards Jews, I have never felt more alienated and disgusted than I do right now. Being told that we "100% deserve what's happening to you, you racist piece of shit" in the last post by Ren has pushed me towards feeling like a post like this needs to be made. For the comfort and safety of other Jewish users on this site, I'd like some action taken of any kind, thank you.

If any user called out has an issue with me doing so, please dm me respectfully instead of harassing me on my wall, I'd really appreciate it :)

it was not because he is jewish. recognizing israel as a british/yankee project built in palestinian lands, and thus as fake, is not harmful in anyway and intends no purpose to belittle them due to their ethnicity/identity, but to gently point out a reality ignored by same said user through a funny anime character.
 
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What I do care about is that THIS is targeted harassment of a user because of their ethnicity and identity on their wall.

It has nothing at all to do with their ethnicity or identity, it has to do with posting blatantly bigoted stuff. Anyone who posted stuff like "they're all backwards terrorists who want to kill innocent people" about an entire ethnic/religious group would, I'd guess, be clowned on. Not to mention at least one of the posters in the chain have been Jewish themselves.

Freedom of speech goes both ways, if you're free to speak, so are others. You can't spout whatever comes to your mind and cry anti-Semitism or racism when people react to it.
 
I'd like to tag the mods of this forum in dave and WaterBomb to facilitate all of this and the forum staff I currently see online in EviGaro, Estarossa, and ausma, sorry if these tags cause any unwanted headaches or if you guys aren't the right people to tag. On all my time on this site, which I knew wasn't exactly friendly towards Jews, I have never felt more alienated and disgusted than I do right now. Being told that we "100% deserve what's happening to you, you racist piece of shit" in the last post by Ren has pushed me towards feeling like a post like this needs to be made. For the comfort and safety of other Jewish users on this site, I'd like some action taken of any kind, thank you.

If any user called out has an issue with me doing so, please dm me respectfully instead of harassing me on my wall, I'd really appreciate it :)
Nah if you wanna talk here then let's do it here my guy. I'll gladly read whatever patchwork explanation you can provide as to why calling Islam "a group of people who follow a backwards religion who oppress women rights, criminalize homosexuals, and execute the trans" doesn't classify as racist. (and this is a direct quote, I understand you've had difficulty following along with the thread so far so I'm attaching it so you have another chance to see it)

Thanks for tagging the mods, by the way, I'm aware they're less blind than you are and can see why sweeping an entire religion under this label is problematic. You'll also notice how I said "you" specifically to that racist, and that's because IDGAF (it's I don't give a fuck, I know you're probably not used to seeing letters other than IDF in acronyms) about his wall being spammed. He needs to fuck off for what he said lol
 
I don't ever post on this forum, and I don't think I will with my thoughts, but I'd like to go a bit further with this because this type of behavior does not deserve to go unnoticed.

KM VictorySymbol LpZ Accel sensei axew Matheus_22k Tatsumaa Askov CDW Enrique Aliss Xrn zoe HANTSUKI Bouff Beraldo ishtar Kate Bakugames gum Sage Perry Hyogafodex Rewer avarice spellcaster Chloe hs

Each and every one of you should be absolutely ashamed of yourself. I do not care about politics right now. I do not care about your opinions on the current situation. What I do care about is that THIS is targeted harassment of a user because of their ethnicity and identity on their wall. As a religious Jew myself, I think it's appalling to see people that I've teamed with, that I've had positive interactions with, and that I would call friends would sink to what I see as blatant anti Semitism, even if you don't see it that way. How would each of you feel if I went ahead and posted memes mocking your identity on your walls, whether sexual, religious, or national?

I'd like to tag the mods of this forum in dave and WaterBomb to facilitate all of this and the forum staff I currently see online in EviGaro, Estarossa, and ausma, sorry if these tags cause any unwanted headaches or if you guys aren't the right people to tag. On all my time on this site, which I knew wasn't exactly friendly towards Jews, I have never felt more alienated and disgusted than I do right now. Being told that we "100% deserve what's happening to you, you racist piece of shit" in the last post by Ren has pushed me towards feeling like a post like this needs to be made. For the comfort and safety of other Jewish users on this site, I'd like some action taken of any kind, thank you.

If any user called out has an issue with me doing so, please dm me respectfully instead of harassing me on my wall, I'd really appreciate it :)

conflating anti-semitism with opposition to palestinian occupation is inaccurate and deeply offensive. your eagerness to tie your religious identity to colonial genocide does not equate to us being beholden to a twisted moral and ethical structure where speaking out against apartheid is morally wrong.
 
As a religious Jew myself, I think it's appalling to see people that I've teamed with, that I've had positive interactions with, and that I would call friends would sink to what I see as blatant anti Semitism, even if you don't see it that way.

anti zionism is not anti semitism, and I promise being spammed a goku meme about israel after spouting some of the most insane, shameless displays of islamophobia and racism in this thread is not going to kill them
 
anti zionism is not anti semitism,

I'm actually curious what the end goal of an anti zionism position is and how it would never be antisemitic?

I fully get that proeminent Jewish scholars and others viewed Zionism as an antisemitic project in the early days. But, well, things happened, and here we are. It just seems tricky that now that we are after the fact and Israel exists, the idea that millions of Jewish people do identify with that community and what they share does remove a lot of the early misgivings. I am absolutely not talking about the growing settlements, displacement of locals and the destruction of their basic rights in face of a more and more brutal form of colonialism, but purely about the place of the current Jewish community living there, and what an anti-zionism position would entail for them.
 
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I'm actually curious what the end goal of an anti zionism position is and how it would never be antisemitic?

I fully get that proeminent Jewish scholars and others viewed Zionism as an antisemitic project in the early days. But, well, things happened, and here we are. It just seems tricky that now that we are after the fact and Israel exists, the idea that millions of Jewish people do identify with that community and what they share does remove a lot of the early misgivings. I am absolutely not talking about the growing settlements, displacement of locals and the destruction of their basic rights in face of a more and more brutal for of colonialism, but purely about the place of the current Jewish community living there, and what an anti-zionism position would entail for them.

Depends on who you ask I guess, but a single state with equal citizenship rights to all its citizens, a two-state solution with equal sovereignty, or some sort of a confederation, would not involve "anti-Semitism". Obviously that's not going to happen in the short run, but political equality/equal rights, whether within a single state or between two states, would be something to aspire for. An anti-Zionist position would say people who were born and raised there can still live, in an equal standing, without one group being the colonial overlord over the other.
 
I believe the idea of a Jewish homeland to be good in theory. They were marginalized and displaced over thousands of years, a stable safe haven for Jews to live and to connect from all over the world sounds like a great idea to me

The problem is with establishing this homeland on land that was inhabited by people who were never asked for their opinion on the matter. People who were displaced and violated over decades

Now I do see both governments in the wrong. The Palestine government does endorse and reward terrorism. Which ultimately only provokes more military action against the innocent civilians

So idk I am kinda on the fence with this whole matter. The genocide of the Palestinians has to stop and further settling needs to end, everything past that I am unsure about.

I would like to see a consent between Israel and Palestine that would ensure the safety and pursuit of happiness for their civilians, but idk if that would be ever possible
 
Depends on who you ask I guess, but a single state with equal citizenship rights to all its citizens, a two-state solution with equal sovereignty, or some sort of a confederation, would not involve "anti-Semitism". Obviously that's not going to happen in the short run, but political equality/equal rights, whether within a single state or between two states, would be something to aspire for. An anti-Zionist position would say people who were born and raised there can still live, in an equal standing, without one group being the colonial overlord over the other.
- A two-state solution would still require a State of Israel, so realistically it cannot be defined as anti-zionism, no? Zionism is about the building of a Jewish community through a State in Palestine, so it still works with a two-state solution.

- The other one, like you said, is a complete pipedream for now, and probably ever. As much as I despise nation-states and wish we could move away from them, I'm still very dubious when someone presents this as a defence against antisemitism, because it's such a cop-out when you know this has no way of realistically happening.

- The idea that "people who were born and raised there can still live, in an equal standing, without one group being the colonial overlord over the other." is a good one, but there's a pretty significant issue there for me. I find this rebuttal to Zionism here quite interesting, and it certainly does posit that there is an antisemitism at play to the proposed deplacement of millions of people away from their community. And, like you suggested, it does stress the importance of people being able to live where they were born and raised.

The problem with his logic, of course, is that the Holocaust happened, and it turned out the communities across Europe were very not safe. This regrettable lack of foresight aside, he is completely correct on his fears that a Jewish State in Palestine could turn into what we now see as a far right dominated government who enthusiastically pushes forward the idea of being an apartheid state. I think, like most people who can use logic, that Israel being criticized on these grounds is obviously completely fair.

But. How do we avoid the other part here? That if Edwin Montagu's main concerns were about the continued security of the Jewish communities, and how they should keep their identities... In a post Israel world, those things are, for better or worse, very much linked to the reality that Israel exists as a State. If you propose a two states solution, that's fine, though obviously it would need a lot of good will that is sorely lacking now. But if you propose purposefully destabilizing the security of the Jewish community in Israel in the somewhat utopian hope that a just and free society would guarantee the rights that the current State holds, that is a very different issue, and one that Montagu might actually raise as antisemitism based on that logic. And again there, you can talk about how the rights of the minority living in Israel are severely under threat, or how settlements in Palestinian lands are morally unjust and a brutal form of oppression. Or how claiming the whole of Jerusalem is an astonishingly bad decision in the way it was done. I hold all these views and definitely want a free Palestine. But going on about anti-zionism with what it would realistically causes just is something I do not quite get.
Ethnostates are bad, let's not have ethnostates.

That seems very shortsighted though? What is an ethnostate? Is Kosovo bad for existing? Is Pakistan? Is Ukraine? I am in favour of Québec's independance as I do not quite believe we share much with Canada in general. Am I in favour of an ethnostate? Am I... bad????

And yes, I know you said something about all States being bad, which like, sure. But for the sake of this question I wanted to keep realistic goals kek
 
I'm actually curious what the end goal of an anti zionism position is and how it would never be antisemitic?
I'd love to hear what people in this thread have to say because I think through the lense of this question and statements such as this
I also would never cheer for civilian killings myself, even if they're settlers that benefit from an ethnic cleansing
we can all hopefully understand why myself and a vast majority of (at least more religious/affiliated Jews) find a lot of the rhetoric around these discussions to be gross and anti-Semitic (I don't believe you're an anti-Semitic person btw Rewer, I'm just using this as an example). A lot of the talk out there about how Israel needs to be wiped out and colonial etc etc etc is about half a step sideways from a direct target at someone like myself who sees this small strip of land in the Middle East as an essential part of my ancestral identity, my family, and daily life. I probably think about Jerusalem a 15+ times a day, whether in my prayers where I face the city and mention it and the land a ton, or just random conversation. So when I hear statements invalidating the idea of the land of Israel and attacks on the people who live there rather than its actions and policies, it comes across as a comment on my own identity; that I don't deserve the rights to a homeland and deserve to be ethnically cleansed. Even if it's not a conscious element of your own thought processes when discussing Israel, with an anti-Zionist approach to the situation in the Middle East, what does that realistically mean for myself, my friends, and my family who live in or resonate deeply with the land? Where do we go?

To be very clear, my problems here aren't about politics, but rather the rhetoric used and how we all respond to each other. Let's just be careful of being respectful in this thread and keep it to being critical of Israel and its policies rather than something that borders on perceived anti-Semitism from someone like myself, that's all I ask tyty :)

I'll gladly read whatever patchwork explanation you can provide as to why calling Islam "a group of people who follow a backwards religion who oppress women rights, criminalize homosexuals, and execute the trans" doesn't classify as racist. (and this is a direct quote, I understand you've had difficulty following along with the thread so far so I'm attaching it so you have another chance to see it)
I don't think you need to be an expert on the issue to know this kinda rhetoric is not OK and we shouldn't tolerate it as a community, whether it's related to Muslim or Jewish or LGBT people or whoever...I would think would be an active disservice to not only Palestinians and Muslims at large but also to your fellow Jews who are now going to be thought of as holding this ideology (whether that's fair or not). It sucks seeing posts like this come up and pushing this type of messaging, and if the respective mods do anything with this thread it's that stuff that this is appropriately punished.
I think my good friend Ophion sums up exactly how I feel about all of this. This is awful, deeply Islamophobic, and frankly disgusting and has no place on this site nor does it represent the Jewish community, even if people here get the idea that it does and that I would dare defend this. Morsel's comments here deserve whatever the mods feel is the appropriate response and is what Jews would call a Chillul Hashem (a void/desecration of God's name). I apologize for glancing over what he said earlier and not seeing this comment or else I would have called him out for the same vile behavior on that post, even if the original intent of my post was meant to call out what I saw as anti-Semitic, or at the very least racial, harassment.

Looking back at it now with the key context that I missed, I realize that your comments that I called out were directed at him specifically for what he said, so I'm sorry for the misunderstanding and hope we can move past my mistake here.
 
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Plenty of other settlers could also be said to be freeing religious persecution. Does it make it right that they came to, say, America and built communities after pushing people who lived there off their land? That is the main issue with Zionism, that it was quite explicitly designed as a settler-colonial project designed to displace people who were already living in the region and build a society off of that. Which is what they did, even if they couldn't take all of it. To be opposed to Zionism is to fundamentally recognize this fact, and it is frankly the only sensible position, just as being opposed to white rule in South Africa was.

Quite frankly, it's ridiculous to sit and talk about potentially "destabilizing the security" of Israelis when they are occupying Palestinian territories and constantly interfering with their security and safety (our friend with the Victini avatar here basically showed us how they see Palestinians - Israelis are fairly open about this). They have an entire system set up to guarantee the security of Jewish citizens and criminalize the existence of Palestinians, not dissimilar to other settler societies with racial hierarchies embedded in their legal code. This isn't mentioning the illegal settlements either, which you touched on, to be fair. All of this cannot be meaningfully separated from the overall Zionist project, and it's frankly impossible to have any sort of peace process while this system is still in place. Wanting a free Palestine essentially necessitates being anti-Zionist. Imagine saying "well, we just need to separate South Africa into a white state and a Bantustan state", it's the same principle. Don't let apologists in this thread blind you to the truth here; no matter what flimsy justifications are used, the situation is fundamentally no different from America, Australia, Canada, South Africa, etc., and calling Israel a colonial state is absolutely correct (and what the original Zionists openly acknowledged!)

I'm not going to get into the second part because the anarchist position of "dude... states, like, shouldn't exist... we should have a no state solution" doesn't engage with reality, that's the one thing I'll agree with you on there. But based on the rationalizing of Israeli authority I think we'd have opposite views on statehood/national liberation here.

Truly sorry, but I don't think we should play with whatabouttisms when it comes to the Holocaust. This was no simple "religious persecution", but the systematic eradication of an entire people by the millions, one of the worst crimes we as a species ever committed. This makes it so that any comparison to white rule in South Africa - even if you agree both are essentially apartheid states now - is at risk of being astonishingly stupid.

On the rest, I just don't think you're replying to the main question I have. Yes, the policies are atrocious, Yes, Zionism is being used as an idea to force those policies onwards. But, it's almost impossible to deny that Israel existing has done a lot to preserve the existence of Jews following the Holocaust. Even now, the population worldwide is not quite to the level it was pre-1939. And in other countries, let's not ignore that antisemitism is still very much a thing, and you see it in troubling movements that are on the rise (and sadly, it's not just linked to those): millions of people question the basic reality of the Holocaust, hundreds of morons chanted against Jews replacing them, and thousands upon thousands firmly believe there's a Jewish conspiracy at play when it comes to giving transfolks like me basic rights. Often even using the same Nazi buzzwords! Antisemitism is still very real even in the most "tolerant" of societies where Jews live, and I'll never quite understand what that worry can do. But I can definitely see the appeal in a State where 2/3 of the global population lives in relative security.

Sure, early Zionists in the late 19th/ early 20th centuries had aims that are - and were - morally dubious. And like I said before, there was a clear Jewish opposition to the idea then. But we just don't live in those days anymore, and it's pointless to pretend otherwise. My question remains then: What happens to the Jewish community of nearly 10 millions if an anti-zionism project succeeds? If you abolish it and consequently the State of Israel as it exists now ceases to exist, what then? Because, look around them: Turkey is doing apartheid, Lebanon is not quite having glory days, Egypt is doing mass suppression of rights, Syria has how many groups fighting for their survival now? Let's not talk about Saudi Arabia... How in this new reality do we know that the Jewish people will be able to be guaranteed continuous security and the ability to prosper?

Because this isn't white rule in Africa, and why I think the comparison is just so so far off. We're talking about the people that was specifically targeted in one of the most brutal events we ever witnessed, that we then provided guarantees to. Sorry if I do believe there is a moral obligation to "never again", but I really do. We also have, in my view, a moral obligation to address the suffering of Palestinians. Both, to me, are not mutually exclusive, and if I believed them to be I would think we will inevitably fail either of them.

One last thing about "the rationalizing of Israeli authority", I am not quite sure where you think I stand there, but I'll address it. My main concern is security, not quite authority. And the way Israel has used its authority in the past decades, to me, very much is foolish if you aim at providing security. It's a pointless militaristic entreprise that risks turning people against you and only creates more violence. But logically, security should be a common aim for any community. I think the native communities in Canada would be a lot better off outside of our failing authority. But they would still have their own, and it might not be perfect. When it comes to Israel, like I said before, to me if you remove Jewish authority, you would only place them under a new one. And if that one is far more objecting to their continuing security, well...
 
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Is Kosovo bad for existing? Is Pakistan? Is Ukraine?

A state where membership is restricted to or legal preference is given to members of a certain ethnicity.

Is Kosovo bad for existing?
Nope, not an ethnostate.

Is Pakistan?

Also not an ethnostate, although it has a few worrying nationalist policies.
Is Ukraine?

We're 0 for 3 for ethnostates so far.

am in favour of Québec's independance as I do not quite believe we share much with Canada in general. Am I in favour of an ethnostate? Am I... bad????

Yes, but only because you're Canadian. Keep pushing for that succession.

And yes, I know you said something about all States being bad, which like, sure. But for the sake of this question I wanted to keep realistic goals kek

Yeah, you caught me, I am indeed guilty of the occasional shitpost.
 
fully get that proeminent Jewish scholars and others viewed Zionism as an antisemitic project in the early days. But, well, things happened, and here we are. It just seems tricky that now that we are after the fact and Israel exists, the idea that millions of Jewish people do identify with that community and what they share does remove a lot of the early misgivings. I am absolutely not talking about the growing settlements, displacement of locals and the destruction of their basic rights in face of a more and more brutal form of colonialism, but purely about the place of the current Jewish community living there, and what an anti-zionism position would entail for them.

do you think land back and decolonization movements in the us are going to kick every white person out of the us back to europe? or are they going to keep living in the us, under indigenous laws and recognized land?

the goals of anti zionism is the removal of israel, not jewish people (considering there are literal palestinian jews rn, thats be inconvenient). theyd simply live under palestinian state, as palestinians would be given their homes back and their culture, religions and civil rights and laws.
 
do you think land back and decolonization movements in the us are going to kick every white person out of the us back to europe? or are they going to keep living in the us, under indigenous laws and recognized land?

the goals of anti zionism is the removal of israel, not jewish people (considering there are literal palestinian jews rn, thats be inconvenient). theyd simply live under palestinian state, as palestinians would be given their homes back and their culture, religions and civil rights and laws.
That sounds great! Where exactly is the basis for any of this to not be a very utopian idea? Are we basing this on recent history, current geopolitical trends?

Also, this says the quiet part out loud, doesn't it? Under a Palestinian state, where the Palestinians have everything back including their laws. Hard to be against that. But... wouldn't that mean, you know, that the Israeli would be losing a lot? Who gets to enforce that? And also, how is that State working? If it's a democracy, well, what stops the Israeli from simply voting the hard right back in? You're taking away a lot from them here, and vengeful voices will come up. Do we have safeguards in place? Who decides them? Who enforces them? Because you have to dismantle the IDF, right? Who does that? Who in both parties would see this as a good compromise?

This isn't like land back in North America, where we haven't spent decades at war with native population. Them getting some recognized territory - although technically, that is the law in Canada and let me tell you it does not work - would have no security impact on the non-native population. You're asking a massive compromise from the Israeli here with zero gain, only questions. Seriously speaking, I genuinely do not get how you could get anything done if you don't include the State of Israel as part of the reality moving forward. Anything else just isn't applicable to current geopolitics, and it doesn't serve Palestinians suffering now to start with something that will never happen.
 
Seriously speaking, I genuinely do not get how you could get anything done if you don't include the State of Israel as part of the reality moving forward. Anything else just isn't applicable to current geopolitics, and it doesn't serve Palestinians suffering now to start with something that will never happen.

no one here is saying this will happen in the blink of an eye, but they're answering your question of the goal of antizionism. Most revolutions and decolonization goals aren't where we start, they're where we want to end up.

Also I think the canadian mention is kinda funny. Of course it didn't work, because it's not actual land back but more so the average canadian lipservice law lol
 
no one here is saying this will happen in the blink of an eye, but they're answering your question of the goal of antizionism. Most revolutions and decolonization goals aren't where we start, they're where we want to end up.

Also I think the canadian mention is kinda funny. Of course it didn't work, because it's not actual land back but more so the average canadian lipservice law lol
But that goes back to what I was saying earlier, it's a very weird defence against antisemitism. How is that persuasive to anyone in Israel if you go like "It's not that I am against your right to exist freely on the only land you have known, it's just that in my ideal world your rights would not be guaranteed by the Israel state but trust me you wouldn't lose any of them." I am caricaturing a lot lol, but it's a very easy opinion to have when you don't really lose anything by claiming it.

And yeah for sure it's a joke of a law, but it kinda illustrates the problem such policies could have. It's very hard to have proper land back movements when the ressources and technologies would still be very much out of your legal control. Giving land back wouldn't solve the water crisis, for one.
 
How is that persuasive to anyone in Israel if you go like "It's not that I am against your right to exist freely on the only land you have known, it's just that in my ideal world your rights would not be guaranteed by the Israel state but trust me you wouldn't lose any of them." I am caricaturing a lot lol, but it's a very easy opinion to have when you don't really lose anything by claiming it.

Ok let me try and understand your stance here since Im a bit tired (also because its 9 am lol)

when ppl say anti zionism isn't anti semitism, the implications are that that

1. the issue with israel isn't that they're a state for jewish people, but that they're a colonial power which are trying to erase palestinian people, their culture and rewriting history of palestine before israelian occupation

2. israel is not a result of jewish peoples choice, but a state created as an result from european nazism and anti semitism that stayed much beyond ww2, negligence and racism (for both jewish people and palestinians

3. israel is not the face representative of jewish people, and its not the answer for the jewish diaspora (or more accurately persecution) and the latter is not a good justification for israels existence, as its existence in the zionist plan requires the persecution of palestinians.

4. the goal is that jewish people can and still will live in palestine after the removal of israel. The issue was never "ew theres jews in there", and the narrative that palestinians will persecute jewish people if they get power often falls a lot on the usual narrative that colonized people will do the same things to colonizers that the colonizers did to them which has been a narrative repeated in various other colonial states. I won't be naive and act like the reunification will result in immediate peace and everyone holds hands smiling, conflicts will still happen but the fact they will happen aren't enough pretense for the permanence of israel

when you say that its a weird defense of anti semitism, I think it ignores the reason for israels existence, the inherit colonial structure it requires and how it weaponizes anti semitism in itself
 
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