Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v3

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I really hope Gholdengo gets removed from the tier the improvements for the tier would be fantastic.
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I wonder why Rock Ogerpon is so underrated - I understand the term opportunities cost but apply some common sense - Rock STAB goes crazy in OU especially with Wood Hammer/Power Whip to punish Ground and Water types.
 
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Hiddenfreezer said:
I wonder why Rock Ogerpon is so underrated - I understand the term opportunities Cost but apply some common sense - Rock STAB goes crazy in OU especially with Wood Hammer/Power Whip to punish Ground and Water types.
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Rockpon is a solid mon but it has a few issues that Waterpon doesn't. Its ability, Sturdy, becomes effectively useless in many games because it can't run boots in this hazard-infested meta. Compare this to Water Absorb, which is always useful and splashable since every team needs something to check rain.

Rock/grass STAB is great in theory but is actually a bit less spammable than Waterpon's STAB due to being resisted by both Ghold and Kingambit. Granted, Rockpon has coverage options to hit these mons. But the Swords Dance set has to choose between Knock/Low kick/Stomping Tantrum. Waterpon also has a better matchup against Dondozo due to not being weak to Body Press.

As far as the Encore set goes, Waterpon is just better here since its typing and Water Absorb are best to deal with Manaphy. So the opportunity cost of running Rockpon over Waterpon is high.
 
DaddyBuzzwole said:
since everyone else is discussing what order things should be suspected in, i'm gonna throw in my two cents:
  1. waterpon. this thing has enough coverage to beat any of its supposedly-consistent answers—zen headbutt for amogus, play rough for dragons, superpower for… other shit i guess, and even sd + trailblaze to deal with its faster offensive checks. i haven't found anything that waterpon doesn't have a set to at least trade with. most of the things i lost waterpon to during my reqs run were losing speed ties to opposing waterpon and me playing like dogshit
  2. manaphy. the recent discovery of the double dance acid armor + take heart set makes manaphy even harder to predict and deal with, and if the waterpon suspect is successful it will have lost one of its best offensive and defensive answers
  3. gliscor. after waterpon and manaphy are gone, gliscor will go from bonkers to bullshit. it's already warping the meta in an unhealthy way. the previous two suspects should be enough time to drop lando-t into uu so i feel safe suspecting gliscor at this point
  4. kingambit. this stupid thing keeps dodging bullets like fucking neo. get it the hell out of my tier and never let it back in
  5. iron valiant. i've made my thoughts on valiant clear—it's impossible to predict and consistently answer, like waterpon but marginally less nonsense
  6. probably hamurott but we're not gonna have time for 6 suspects lol, this meta is unbalanceable before dlc2 drops unless the council takes extreme unilateral action
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man let me preface this by saying that 1. im a noob and 2. i really appreciate your contributions here

but in all honesty I think that 6 suspects, in a temporary meta is absolutely bonkers. at this point in time, if we go and check the viability list, there are 12 mons (13 counting BM) in high viability, and you're basically proposing to get rid of all of those. at what point does it stop being "lets get rid of overcentralizing mons" and become "i want tusk balance to be the only viable archetype"? (im exaggerating ofc)

for comparison, there's 11 mons ranked S/A+ in DPP OU. 13 ranked S/A+/A in BW OU (im using BW OU as an example consciously). if you were to run a suspect on 6 of them, yeah sure maybe the meta would get more stable, but other mons would rise to become the best, and for me all the mons you mentioned (bar maybe gambit) dont have the universality and usage rate to be considered as overcentralizing.

waterpon cant run an item and has opportunity cost of not being able to run rockpon. manaphy has to sacrifice speed to be able to SP sweep or sacrifice bulk to be able to pose a thread to stronger and faster mons. valiant gets swept away if it gets attacked period. gliscor as much as a glue it can be suffers from 4MSS. hamurott makes you play with one mon less after the first three turns. and gambit is gambit, but i like the pace it brings to the games.

mons like manaphy are REALLY good but not in an unfair way. just today i tera dragon to keep boosting up and got revenge killed by wake draco meteor. maybe im bad but i struggle to find the opportunity to SD with waterpon and yes, when it does its incredible strong, but its not infallible.

it is one thing to not like the flavour of a meta, however I find it unfair to ban something just bc its not the flavour we want, there have to be more solid arguments. and i understand youve made your point and im not gonna sway you either way, and i dont wanna say broken checks broken, but imo when there are like 10 mons that constantly get brought up in terms of brokenness, maybe its not brokenness and rather they are just very good. yes gholdengo makes hazards really good this gen, but thats a statement, not an argument. yes a9t makes HO better, but do you know how many mons have brick break in ou? these are just examples and im probably very wrong in the practical side of things but my point stands, none of these are unstoppable or onedimensional, so i dont really see (and much less endorse thinking that DLC2 is gonna reset things) a world in which 6 suspects is something viable or helpful
 
MisogiKurakawa said:
So, now that we've cooled down with Bloodmoon's banning, it's probably worth looking at the other six candidates we established for suspect tests:
  1. Kingambit
  2. Iron Valiant
  3. Gholdengo
  4. Manaphy
  5. Ogerpon-Wellspring
  6. Gliscor
Working under the assumption that we have about 1-2 months until DLC2 drops, who do you guys think we should look at next?
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Testing any of these besides Ghold would be a waste of time as all of them would drop during a dlc2 retest.

Ghold is the only one worth testing due to how it skews the hazard meta. Unless we get more mons that can threaten Ghold while being able to clear hazards it's going to remain this way.

If we were to pick things to look into atm it would be:

0: Tera -(tera too strong, breaks mons, uncompetitive, enuff said)
1: Gholdengo (skews and imbalances hazard meta too much towards offense)
2: Booster Energy (too consistent at pushing already strong mons over the edge. This is power creep in a one time use item.)

Otherwise...just enjoy the passing meta for what it is.
 
arnimacarni said:
these are just examples and im probably very wrong in the practical side of things but my point stands, none of these are unstoppable or onedimensional
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While I largely agree with most of what you said, a pokemon does not necessarily have to unstoppable and one dimensional to be banned. Magearna had a multitude of sets and figuring out which one you were up against was a huge problem which contributed to the ban. Pokemon like volcarona, palafin and genesect also had a variety of sets and were banned because safely scouting and dealing with them isn't easy and one wrong move could mean game over. Valiant is the closest we have to this but it's more reliant on a weakened team compared to the other two where they were more free to pivot around
 
FCKNfuego said:
Testing any of these besides Ghold would be a waste of time as all of them would drop during a dlc2 retest.

Ghold is the only one worth testing due to how it skews the hazard meta. Unless we get more mons that can threaten Ghold while being able to clear hazards it's going to remain this way.

If we were to pick things to look into atm it would be:

0: Tera -(tera too strong, breaks mons, uncompetitive, enuff said)
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I agree that almost all of them would probably drop with DLC 2, though Gambit I'm not 100% would drop partly (mostly) due to he that must not be named (tera.).

Not even that I like or dislike it, but every message that includes it in a serious manner turns into a massive debate lmaoo
 
arnimacarni said:
yes a9t makes HO better, but do you know how many mons have brick break in ou?
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It's not A9T the problem, but running Brick Break, since even if it's a Fighiting move, which can hit also Steel types and possibly Gambit, is the BP the problem that holds people from running it, since 75BP it's not even worth it if then you use it just for breaking screens, sure if they really give you a lot of problems then feel to use it, but Drain Punch has the same BP but the heal it gives is so much way better compared to breaking screens of Brick Break. Then people prefer use other moves, mainly Close Combat since many mons can learn it, only some as Bisharp (even if it's the lower tiers) and Swampert, which is coming back with the second DLC. In the end is worth running as a coverage mons if your mons can't learn any other move or it's the only good Fighting move.
 
if we're just going to be going by "what is banworthy that won't drop in dlc2" instead of "what is banworthy right now", sure, let's go for gambit. everyone is tired of that thing
 
Hot take: I feel like anything that was suspected/banned as of DLC1 shouldn't be freed until later AFTER DLC2 meta has started to settle a bit.
Otherwise, every ban and suspect during the DLC1 era is basically invalidated and a waste of time.
First and foremost: what would be the point of the Ursa BM test if they just let it out in a few months from now? Seriously, that would mean that any and all suspects during this time are completely pointless, and literally a waste of time. Friendly reminder that I am a pro-ban player, so this in particular annoys me.

I doubt anyone would willingly allow that abomination back in the tier after one of the highest "GTFO" votes in Smogon history, but on principle it shouldn't even be given a chance until AFTER DLC 2 meta settles. I watched this happen last generation, and I'm still shaking my head watching things like Magearna and Cinderace get unbanned for the DLC just to warp the meta again before getting the raboot (Cinderace is fine now thanks to protean nerfs, tera, and all sorts of other shenanigans).

We all know that there are going to be more problematic mons coming in DLC 2. It's inevitable. That's just the issue of power creep and blah blah, no one wants to read about my ravings on that.

My two-fold question is this: What purpose would it serve to suspect a pokemon during this 2-3 month period that needs to be out to make competitive enjoyable during this interim? And then what problematic pokemon needs to be gone so we can properly assess the new metas of both DLC 1 and the future of DLC 2 without its warping influence?

I'm always pro-ban, but my votes are Gholdengo and Kingambit. Those are two that I think will continue to warp the meta of Gen 9 for the forseeable future, regardless of what else is added to the game. (There are probably plenty more imo, but I also have some very strong and dissenting opinions on what makes a pokemon banworthy.)
 
RS25802580 said:
Rockpon is a solid mon but it has a few issues that Waterpon doesn't. Its ability, Sturdy, becomes effectively useless in many games because it can't run boots in this hazard-infested meta. Compare this to Water Absorb, which is always useful and splashable since every team needs something to check rain.

Rock/grass STAB is great in theory but is actually a bit less spammable than Waterpon's STAB due to being resisted by both Ghold and Kingambit. Granted, Rockpon has coverage options to hit these mons. But the Swords Dance set has to choose between Knock/Low kick/Stomping Tantrum. Waterpon also has a better matchup against Dondozo due to not being weak to Body Press.

As far as the Encore set goes, Waterpon is just better here since its typing and Water Absorb are best to deal with Manaphy. So the opportunity cost of running Rockpon over Waterpon is high.
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Another issue is that Rockpon has virtually no defensive utility. While it's weaknesses aren't too exploitable, it lacks real resistances to take advantage out. Comparatively, Waterpon has a lot more entry points to come in on, especially if it teras due to mono water being so good.

One nice thing about Rock pon is it's MU vs Eletrics like Zapdos, which it actually does a great job of reliably pressuring due to its 100 BP non-contact STAB.
 
CheesyBrie said:
Hot take: I feel like anything that was suspected/banned as of DLC1 shouldn't be freed until later AFTER DLC2 meta has started to settle a bit.
Otherwise, every ban and suspect during the DLC1 era is basically invalidated and a waste of time.
First and foremost: what would be the point of the Ursa BM test if they just let it out in a few months from now? Seriously, that would mean that any and all suspects during this time are completely pointless, and literally a waste of time. Friendly reminder that I am a pro-ban player, so this in particular annoys me.
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i wholeheartedly agree with this. dropping a whole bunch of banned mons at once absolutely ruined crown tundra and was basically the final nail in the coffin for gen 8 because by the time we cleaned it up no one was interested anymore. doing the same thing this time would be a repeat of a terrible mistake and a massive disservice to all of the people who worked hard for their suspect reqs. each thing should be surveyed before dropping and each drop should be a suspect instead of a council vote unless there is overwhelming community support for a drop
 
DaddyBuzzwole said:
it really won't be that much easier. there are just not enough viable defoggers, especially now that we have another form of defog punishing in empoleon, and too many viable setters, especially the cheap-as-shit ones who can effectively guarantee themselves three layers of spikes by simply existing (gliscor and hamurott). we should look into banning the two most overbearing setters first and then, if that doesn't solve the problem, we can talk about gholdengo
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Setters are not so much an issue if you have the ability to remove them. Even competitive/defiant which is a form of punishing defog isnt the same as outright countering defog in the way Ghold does. Who's to say if gliscor is even broken in a ghold-less meta where you can remove hazards that are set up easier? I think its easier to make the case that ghold is a problem in a gliscor-less meta, since it was an issue in Home meta and even in pre-Home meta (which may have been harder to see since we also had things like chiyu and chien pao running around). I always go back to using 2-3 turns getting up spikes can be a waste of time if i use 1 turn to defog them; just so long as im actually able to defog them.
 
CheesyBrie said:
Hot take: I feel like anything that was suspected/banned as of DLC1 shouldn't be freed until later AFTER DLC2 meta has started to settle a bit.
Otherwise, every ban and suspect during the DLC1 era is basically invalidated and a waste of time.
First and foremost: what would be the point of the Ursa BM test if they just let it out in a few months from now? Seriously, that would mean that any and all suspects during this time are completely pointless, and literally a waste of time. Friendly reminder that I am a pro-ban player, so this in particular annoys me.

I doubt anyone would willingly allow that abomination back in the tier after one of the highest "GTFO" votes in Smogon history, but on principle it shouldn't even be given a chance until AFTER DLC 2 meta settles. I watched this happen last generation, and I'm still shaking my head watching things like Magearna and Cinderace get unbanned for the DLC just to warp the meta again before getting the raboot (Cinderace is fine now thanks to protean nerfs, tera, and all sorts of other shenanigans).

We all know that there are going to be more problematic mons coming in DLC 2. It's inevitable. That's just the issue of power creep and blah blah, no one wants to read about my ravings on that.

My two-fold question is this: What purpose would it serve to suspect a pokemon during this 2-3 month period that needs to be out to make competitive enjoyable during this interim? And then what problematic pokemon needs to be gone so we can properly assess the new metas of both DLC 1 and the future of DLC 2 without its warping influence?

I'm always pro-ban, but my votes are Gholdengo and Kingambit. Those are two that I think will continue to warp the meta of Gen 9 for the forseeable future, regardless of what else is added to the game. (There are probably plenty more imo, but I also have some very strong and dissenting opinions on what makes a pokemon banworthy.)
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Completely fair take imo

I'm leaning in this direction, but there's this inkling of doubt in my mind like "What if TPC delays DLC 2, surely that won't happen) that prevents me from supporting this idea with every fiber of my being, but yeah I think it's very sensible and would love to hear Finch's or another OU Leader's take on opinions like this.
 
DaddyBuzzwole said:
doing the same thing this time would be a repeat of a terrible mistake and a massive disservice to all of the people who worked hard for their suspect reqs.
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Literally reading this made me think about this
1696874939309.png
 
gregdawiz said:
Setters are not so much an issue if you have the ability to remove them. Even competitive/defiant which is a form of punishing defog isnt the same as outright countering defog in the way Ghold does. Who's to say if gliscor is even broken in a ghold-less meta where you can remove hazards that are set up easier? I think its easier to make the case that ghold is a problem in a gliscor-less meta, since it was an issue in Home meta and even in pre-Home meta (which may have been harder to see since we also had things like chiyu and chien pao running around). I always go back to using 2-3 turns getting up spikes can be a waste of time if i use 1 turn to defog them; just so long as im actually able to defog them.
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The problem is I don’t think corv would even fair well in the meta even if Ghold gets the boot. It never wants to tera because its base type is very good defensively, and the general power creep has made it very easy to muscle through. It can pivot and remove hazards, but it’s so passive the it wouldn’t be able to do too much beyond that.

I’m not even gonna talk about mandibuzz, that thing is hot ass lmao
 
kosecant said:
I’m not even gonna talk about mandibuzz, that thing is hot ass lmao
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It's funny when you think about that the same Mandibuzz in the last gen was constantly used as a try to check various mons as Spectrier before they got banned and instead in this gen is like a meme, losing even sometimes to Gholdengo which should check
 
You know, a lot of people rag on Smogon for banning multiple Pokemon instead of Tera (arguably many of those Pokemon would still be banned), but at the same time want Gluedengo banned as well.
Like damn, so much of the metagame becomes broken without it to check them.
 
kosecant said:
The problem is I don’t think corv would even fair well in the meta even if Ghold gets the boot. It never wants to tera because its base type is very good defensively, and the general power creep has made it very easy to muscle through. It can pivot and remove hazards, but it’s so passive the it wouldn’t be able to do too much beyond that.
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It still checks things and prevents a number of things from insta winning, tusk/physical val/sneasler/big zama/roaring moon(?). There's a reason its OU now even with ghold around. Could get better as other mons get the boot from OU as well.

Also its not just corv. There are other defoggers. Scizor for one mentioned in an earlier post.
 
Cuddly said:
You know, a lot of people rag on Smogon for banning multiple Pokemon instead of Tera (arguably many of those Pokemon would still be banned), but at the same time want Gluedengo banned as well.
Like damn, so much of the metagame becomes broken without it to check them.
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What mons specifically? I'm not disagreeing, I just keep saying people say "so much becomes broken" without listing what specific mons do become broken. The mons I can think of have other answers that exist. A list would help me understand.
 
gregdawiz said:
What mons specifically? I'm not disagreeing, I just keep saying people say "so much becomes broken" without listing what specific mons do become broken. The mons I can think of have other answers that exist. A list would help me understand.
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Iron Valiant and Roaring Moon are easy examples
 
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