counter-counter-counterpoint: the court of the crimson king is so easy a pick that I am genuinely surprised it wasn't chosen the first time
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v3
- Thread starter TPP
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not that anyone cares or notices but as the only gambit supporter posting in this thread, the more i think about it, the more i believe starting with gambit quickbanned for dlc2 with a firm promise to reintroduce it later as like with zama to be the optimal choice, i think maybe letting things shape for this final meta and then letting gambit run loose and see whether it skews matchups as much as stated is the only way to have a definitive answer on gambit's role in the meta
and f**k you guys kendrick was the perfect song choice for the suspect bc "miss me with that bullshiiit"
and f**k you guys kendrick was the perfect song choice for the suspect bc "miss me with that bullshiiit"
counter-counter-counterpoint: none of those were written by rush, making every one of them a far more compelling choice for the inevitable second suspect
to make this not a shitty one-liner, how have you guys felt about moltres in the current meta? I can see why it fell off a little bit, as waterpon forces it out even if it doesn't like switching in on hurricane, and the manaphy mu is also quite poor, but it still does a lot of the same stuff it could do in HOME meta imo
CHAIN LINK 4 COUNTERPOINT (aka counter-counter-counter-counterpoint) (if you get the reference you're a legend)). The most optimal song in picking for any suspect is Somebody's Watching Me by Rockwell feat. Micheal Jackson
The irony is that Kingambit was already suspected. And all the other broken things overshadowed it. So its like yk... who was really focused on gambit anyway when we got Firepon and Bloodmoon Ursaluna.
Moltres' job is to switch in, fish for a 30% burn on the opponent's contact move, and require them to use something awkward for this metagame to remove it, so its viability is tied up in how often it can do that. The DLC came out with not only two Ogerpons who hit it super effectively with a move that doesn't make contact, but also Gliscor, who's immune to Burn after it's been out for a turn and can use it to get more Spikes up. I think Moltres just has a lot less opportunities to do its thing without being punished.
No. Enam. Mald. Clef. Mald. Valiant. Mald. Glischomp. Mald. moon stole your new job too and did it better
im sorry, i like chomp too but Mamoswine unironically has more viability in the current metagame then chomp (in my opinion)
-Chomps role as a fast strong bulky attacker died-> its slower then all the fairies that ohko it with moonblast or pult draco or atales blizard/freezedry
-Chomp with hazards died-> gliscor does it better+u died to moonblast or somebody’s ice prep for gliscor
-setup chomp (dice scale shot/SD)-> roaring moon does it better… and enam exists
Sadly now there is only Garchump
In summary, i will bring it to a close with one image.
I feel like Heatran would end up stealing its job as a flame body buddy in this meta, also u forgot to mention, if u wanna burn people rn, you dont use flame body
you put scald on a water type and let the game play itself
Gambits a lot more managable with gliscor, and umm also the vacuum wave epidemic! If u have a special attacker faster then 200 speed, slap on vacuum wave and never worry again about midgambit (joke btw, ik a lot of mons didnt get it but some of the stuff that did is hilarious)
I love triple posting in a row
To not make it a one liner, god do I hate the prevalence of Thunder Wave and my shit luck, so many games are winnable if the game decided to just not full para me 4 times in front of a defensive Gholdengo.
To not make it a one liner, god do I hate the prevalence of Thunder Wave and my shit luck, so many games are winnable if the game decided to just not full para me 4 times in front of a defensive Gholdengo.
Chomp is still pretty ass, scale shot isn't even the best set let alone saving it.
First of all, Fairies. Clefable, Enamorus, Hatterene, Iron Valiant, Ninetales-A and Ribombee in addition to some terastalizers such as Iron Moth and Kingambit.
All Fairies: Deny scale shot, making Garchomp super easy to revenge kill
With unaware, physdef Clefable can 1v1 all Garchomp and use it as setup fodder for calm mind/cosmic power. Even if not setup variant, clef can get up rocks and force garchomp (without a speed boost) to prematurely terastalize just to not die to moonblast or get forced out.
Not only is it immune to scale shot, but also Earthquake. Only options for actually threatening Enamorus are Tera Blast which has high opportunity cost especially on a bad mon and Stone Edge which leaves you stonewalled by Corviknight and Gholdengo with air balloon intact (more on them later). Enamorus also outspeeds and, once again, forces premature tera or a hard swapout.
Possibly the least big problem for scale shot Garchomp, unless it's seed Hatterene on gterrain. Completely messes up utility Garchomp but this post isn't about that.
Moving on from the least big problem, we have the most problematic for Garchomp. Iron Valiant has a very high usage rate, booster quark drive to revenge kill even +1 speed Garchomp, fast encore to punish scale shot and swords dance, again forces Garchomp to tera. If Garchomp has already terastalized before Valiant comes in it's even bigger Valiant food because it can't even tera to resist moonblast if it gets lucky enough to even setup in the first place vs a competent player.
Fast encore, aurora veil, snow defense boost, it's debatably as bad of a matchup as Iron Valiant but it's less common. Ninetales is still a significant, noteworthy threat though.
Generally gets sacced early game, however Webs nullify scale shot even if Ribombee is taken down.
Iron Moth can punish Garchomp for terastalizing because Garchomp is usually the teams Moth check, take away Garchomps typing and it fails to answer Moth. Moth can also emergency tera fairy if it needs to block scale shot speed boost.
Kowtow has a chance to OHKO without glasses or tera at 3 fallen +0. Kingambit eats EQ after tera. No elaboration needed because Kingambit revenges every threat.Next, walls.
Garchomp isn't doing shit to Dondozo, it's just curse setup fodder.
Ting Lu has very similar physical bulk to Dondozo but trades curse and unaware for spiking and phazing Garchomp out. Garchomp will win over time but when Garchomp finds so much difficulty setting up 1 phaze is all you need to neutralize Garchomp.
Running stone edge to even touch Enamorus? Well now you can't touch Corviknight at all
Needs air balloon intact or terastal, but can easily take on weakened Garchomp if not running fire moveMiscellaneous Counterplay not mentioned earlier:
Grassy Terrain halves the threat of Earthquake, Grassy Glide can do decent damage and goes before even +6 speed chomp.
Bulk up variants can set up alongside Garchomp, have Ice Spinner and Earthquake/Headlong Rush if Garchomp teras.
Rain and Sun have powerful pokemon with speed boosting abilities that threaten Garchomp with ease such as Walking Wake, Barraskewda, Roaring Moon and Basculegion
Dragonite has tera normal + Extreme Speed alongside Multiscale to 1v1 GarchompWhat should you use over Scale Shot Garchomp though?
Outclasses Garchomp as a Ground type sweeper
Outclass Garchomp as Dragon type sweepers
Outclass Garchomp in the role of sweeper that checks Iron Moth
if you run tera ground on any of those, they also outclass garchomp as ground-type sweepers. come to think of it, even if you don't run tera ground dragonite still outclasses chomp as a ground-type sweeper. that's how bad garchomp is right now, even non-grounds are better grounds than it
+2 252 Atk Garchomp Scale Shot (4 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Multiscale Tera Normal Dragonite: 297-357 (91.9 - 110.5%) -- approx. 56.3% chance to OHKO
5 hits is an ohko, and adamant also makes scale shot an ohko. Dragonite definitely loses 1v1 to chomp lol, especially with rough skin chip. Garchomp is far from bad, especially with its unique ability to boost speed while attacking that the other dragons can’t take advantage of. Obviously you need to be wary of fairies and walls, but every sweeper needs to have its checks and counters weakened before it comes in. That’s just basic positioning. Once its checks are out of the way, Garchomp is very dangerous, and can snowball pretty easily
5 hits is an ohko, and adamant also makes scale shot an ohko. Dragonite definitely loses 1v1 to chomp lol, especially with rough skin chip. Garchomp is far from bad, especially with its unique ability to boost speed while attacking that the other dragons can’t take advantage of. Obviously you need to be wary of fairies and walls, but every sweeper needs to have its checks and counters weakened before it comes in. That’s just basic positioning. Once its checks are out of the way, Garchomp is very dangerous, and can snowball pretty easily
If you chip chomp at all (which you should be able to do as Dragonite is played on very offensive teams), it cannot scale shot or espeed kills it. I should've clarified.
the big problem Chomp has is that all playstile have tool to beat him even whitout trying. Stall/Fat Balance pack Dozo and Unaware Cleff, Offensive/Bulky Offense thend to use Booster Valiant as Speed control/encore and HO outoffense Chomp specially bc of 102 speed isnt fast anymoreChomp is still pretty ass, scale shot isn't even the best set let alone saving it.
First of all, Fairies. Clefable, Enamorus, Hatterene, Iron Valiant, Ninetales-A and Ribombee in addition to some terastalizers such as Iron Moth and Kingambit.
All Fairies: Deny scale shot, making Garchomp super easy to revenge kill
Next, walls.
Miscellaneous Counterplay not mentioned earlier:
What should you use over Scale Shot Garchomp though?
I mean the same goes for dragonite, with chip garchomp wins. They don’t really check each other that well. Extreme Speed does ~50 unboosted, so you need two dragon dances to ohko even with hazards.
Chomp should be used more as a late game cleaner IMO, saving it for weakened teams that it can smash through easily after 1 swords dance. Dozo does hard wall it, but Tera ground EQ hurts a ton if you don’t resist it:
+2 252 Atk Tera Ground Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Ting-Lu: 360-424 (70 - 82.4%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and 2 layers of Spikes
+2 252 Atk Tera Ground Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 384-452 (97.4 - 114.7%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
Tera fire smashes Corv and Ghold, and makes fairies do basically no damage at all
+2 252 Atk Tera Fire Garchomp Tera Blast vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 366-432 (91.7 - 108.2%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
(Still loses hard to dozo, but every physical attacker does so that’s not really a huge point against chomp imo)
not to say garchomp is meta defining or anything, I just think it needs some more experimentation before we write it off as unviable
Although these are valid points, the main issue with your arguement is that to achieve these calculations, you have to use your tera. It's honestly like garganacl, though I believe garg not tera'd is better than garchomp. If you have to use tera for the pokemon to work, then that severly limits your potential options. Although a case could also be made that kingambit is tera hungry, it still does amazingly without tera.
I do definetly agree that more experementation is needed, but with lots of centralising fairy types, and other dragon types that do better, Garchomp can't work right now. Maybe at a later date, when either some of these are banned or they fall off, I definetly think Garchomp could work. It is so close to being viable, it just needs a little change in the meta.
Another point that needs to be mentioned is the late game sweeper spot, if you're saying that it can still work in the early/mid game, then yes, it could be what garchomp should be used for. However, if your saying to not use it at all before the late game, then that also is a point against garchomp as you are effectively playing 5 vs 6, which is disadvantageous unless your using a suicide lead, in which case your team is built around it.
Hi, honest question in case I'm missing something here. How does Ceruledge check Iron Moth? It resists both Bitter Blade and Close Combat, and Poltergeist doesn't work on Booster Energy variants (i.e. 90% of all Moths). Not to mention, Ceruledge really wants Weak Armor/Focus Sash setups to get a sweep going and it can't do that if you switch it into a Sludge Wave. Moth can't do much back to it, but just looking at it one of them needs to Tera Ground in order to break this matchup where they both just 3HKO each other and it's all very dependent on who eats the first attack. I feel like using a sweeping Ceruledge to check it is just going to result in not being able to sweep with it anymore if it survives.
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it has decent spdef and bitter blade can out damage it as moth has very low physdef. Although putting it in the category of outclass chomp cause it beats moth is quite misleading since both these mons are very different outside of HO Physical Sweeper and Beats Moth
The biggest weakness garchomp has is that it needs tera (steel/fire preferable) to truly threaten. While tera chomp is actually good, it means giving up your tera on better strategic options such as gambit or roaring moon and id take a tera fairy gambit over any other user every day.
I feel bad for that guy who just liked chomp, but for petes sake, if you are that desperate for a bulky 4x ice weak physical sweeper just run SD gliscor… WITH SCALE SHOT, cuz ye apparently this set is real? (Crabhammer over facade cuz corv/air balloon ghold)
CrawScor (Gliscor) @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 104 Atk / 196 Def / 208 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Scale Shot
- Earthquake
- Crabhammer
- Swords Dance
edit; umm i might have to try this out myself cuz this set looks funny asf
Replay lol , everything was going great until my mon decided it was too good to kill the pult
CrawScor (Gliscor) @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 104 Atk / 196 Def / 208 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Scale Shot
- Earthquake
- Crabhammer
- Swords Dance
edit; umm i might have to try this out myself cuz this set looks funny asf
Replay lol , everything was going great until my mon decided it was too good to kill the pult
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Personally, I've been using this Garchomp set
Liquidation has been proving to be a promising option thus far because it hits fairies neutrally and it nails Great Tusk. If Chomp can get an sd up, liquidation can often straight up kill or deal massive damage to Tusk and if it ice spinners, that means more chip damage. However, the problem with this is that it still doesn't one shot most Gliscor sets because that fucker is ridiculous so perhaps something like tera poison could work simply to block the toxic and scale shot the Gliscor to its death. I don't think tera fire is worth it right now because it because weak to stealth rock but steel, that one I'm not so sure because you do become weak to fighting
As for its set, I'm not sure if that 102 speed is really worth anything so I just use adamant
Garchomp @ Loaded Dice
Ability: Rough Skin
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 Atk / 12 SpD / 244 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Scale Shot
- Liquidation
- Earthquake
- Swords Dance
Ability: Rough Skin
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 Atk / 12 SpD / 244 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Scale Shot
- Liquidation
- Earthquake
- Swords Dance
Liquidation has been proving to be a promising option thus far because it hits fairies neutrally and it nails Great Tusk. If Chomp can get an sd up, liquidation can often straight up kill or deal massive damage to Tusk and if it ice spinners, that means more chip damage. However, the problem with this is that it still doesn't one shot most Gliscor sets because that fucker is ridiculous so perhaps something like tera poison could work simply to block the toxic and scale shot the Gliscor to its death. I don't think tera fire is worth it right now because it because weak to stealth rock but steel, that one I'm not so sure because you do become weak to fighting
As for its set, I'm not sure if that 102 speed is really worth anything so I just use adamant
I wonder. Has Kommo-o gotten more uses in OU this month?
Anyone tried out Volcanion? I see it on low viability but it seems like Balloon sets would eat Gliscor and Steam Eruption in a Physical-heavy Meta never seems like a bad tool. Water Absorb + Tera/Typing lets it match-up pretty cool into Rain/Sun and their stars/checks like Ogerpon and Walking Wake, albeit requiring the right Coverage Move/Tera to hit back.
Mostly curious because Volcanion historically is a mon that slips under early radar and then claws its way into viability later in the meta, and compared to past Gens one of its main traits (Offensive Water-type Burning) is SIGNIFICANTLY rarer than before.
Mostly curious because Volcanion historically is a mon that slips under early radar and then claws its way into viability later in the meta, and compared to past Gens one of its main traits (Offensive Water-type Burning) is SIGNIFICANTLY rarer than before.
Yeah, I am thinking SD with Liquidation or Tera Blast Ice both have the potential to be decent. Liquidation seems a bit better to me because it isn't as Tera reliant, but nailing Gliscor and Grass-Types like Rillaboom are a nice benefit of Tera Blast Ice. I saw Blimax's recent video and Tera Ice Garchomp was able to put in work there. Makes sense since its basically Baxcalibur at home lol.
Also, while its certainly less effective with Gliscor in the tier, Chainchomp is still scary to come across for non-Gliscor teams. It deals massive damage to most standard EQ switchins with Draco and Fire Blast, making it scary for slower teams.
Garchomp can also use tera blast fire, electric, or run a sucker punch resistant tera like fairy and use stone edge as its last option on dice sets: fire and stone edge give it great power - fire notably resists fairy and grass allowing it to survive an ival attempting to revenge kill it or grab an extra boost against rillaboom - and electric chips down dozo (though it isn’t much damage) allowing a teammate to potentially follow up on it.
Also with chain chomp (so long as you’re using a rash nature), only spD gliscor can actually come in on it as phys def gliscor loses well over 70% of its hp after a single draco meteor, and fire blast -> draco should also take it out without a sweat.
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