Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v3

[MisogiKurakawa]

Fixed that thanks for the blunder. But it does beg the question: if this generation has **12** new pokemon banned from OU, how powerful IS this generation in terms of power? So far, we got a generation intro ban rate -- or GIBR for short -- of almost 11% (10.71% to be exact). Roaring Moon would guarantee 11% at 11.61, and if we were to ban Gholdengo, that's now exactly 12.5%. I'm not expert on pokemans but if nearly 14% of the pokemon added in a new generation are banned from OU, then I think that generations power creep is uum... well not the best player experience. I'm not here to start another debate about this and that being banned because it's been said for like the 38th time already. Just want to show some numbers as to the quantity of pokemon banned from their debut generation.

Actually, if you count just full-evolved mons introduced in Gen IX, and exclude Koraidon and Miraidon on the basis of them being Box Legends, the current number is closer to 14.8%, with it set to rise to 16.2% once Roaring Moon is banned. Including Gholdengo, Kingambit, Iron Valiant, and Ogerpon Wellspring (all popular candidates for banning) would then rise it to a truly obscene 21.6%, and that's assuming stuff like Wake isn't suspected either!

Sweet Arceus.

 

[MattC (Banned)]

I said after every suspect, not quickban. almost everything you listed was quickbanned. we've only had 7 suspects counting the current one

Yea that might be true, but the facts are facts. And the facts state that the council decided to quickban most of these threats -- which is good for the sake of sending it off to languish in Ubers obscurity. So it's not a bad thing all things considered.

i don't think you understand what i'm getting at here. i want to redirect the toxicity somewhere else, away from this thread and future discussion threads, by locking it for a little while after every suspect. tensions run highest right after suspect results are announced, so it would be a good idea to prevent that toxicity from spoiling other threads by creating a containment thread for everyone to rant/be smug about the bans in. eliminating toxicity altogether is not possible and will never be possible.

As much as myself would wish that toxicity wasn't a possible emotion, after every s u s p e c t, yea it would probably be a good idea to let the venters vent someplace that doesn't cause the majority of people (which are the people that voted on banning the pokemon) some form of hate towards that person. Not saying this is true, but arguments tend to cause a feel of negativity

your suggestion seems to be "stop talking about it", which doesn't solve anything

Most unfortunate that this is the case. But I mean... not talking about it tends to be the better option for every party.

Wait a second... Isn't this an argument right now???! Oh no. I have given in to the darkness. Time to end this debate before it starts to escalate (oh hey that rhymes)


MattC (Banned) used Quash!

 

[tommytt22]

i know we arent meant to theorymon on here but i wonder if foresight would have a niche as a moveslot if it was still around this generation. not sure why gamefreak dropped it but hitmontop could foresight on the gholdengo switch and force it out with fighting stab or rapid spin. It would even stop tera ghost from invalidating normal/fighting moves

 

[ianlazerbeem]

Legitimately, I want to see two high ranked OU titans build teams that have Gliscor but no Ghold on it just to see how the community feels about Ghold being gone, but Gliscor remaining. Ghold is the stranglehold of the hazards metagame, and it would be vastly improved with it gone. Yet everyone seems to be throwing ALL of their darts at the opposite board toward Gliscor.
You know who else gets all 3 hazards to set? Glimmora, Clodsire, Quagsire, Mew, and Forretress. Yet, no one talks about them, it's always Gliscor, Gliscor, Gliscor.
Glim doesn't have anywhere near the survivability that Gliscor does, yet can still spin and apply SOME pressure with it's massive SpAtk stat.
Clodsire has many fatal flaws that Gliscor doesn't, but also has one defensive utility over Gliscor; Unaware.
Quagsire is well... Quagsire. Middling stats compared to Gliscor's dummy thiccness, but still has access to things like Unaware, Haze, and recovery.
Mew is Mew is Mew. 'nuff said.
Forretress is weaker than Gliscor by far, but only due to not having an amazing ability like Poison Heal. Forre also has the ability to spin, just like Glim.

Seriously, let's actually take some time to play around with some sparring matches using Gliscor and no Gholdengo, JUST to see how it hits for us. Yes, Gliscor wars will be a thing, but that has ALWAYS been a thing.

You don't have to "see two high ranked OU titans" to see how Gliscor functions without Ghold, you can simply try it on ladder, or play ladder games until you run into a team like this (spoiler: pretty much every stall team has Gliscor without Ghold)

You'll find that Gliscor is still an issue even without Ghold because of the difficulty breaking it down, speed and ease of health recovery, extremely limited pool of counterplay, and laundry list of immunities, along with the threat it poses to all forms of removal excluding Corviknight. Great Tusk can't come in without taking a Toxic and Gliscor actually doesn't mind eating one Ice Spinner. It's easy for Gliscor to Toxic, Protect once or twice, leave (even if Tusk gets the spin,) wait for Tusk to be taken care of or even switch to scare it out, then just come right back out and get its spikes back up. Tusk can't survive 2-3 turns of toxic chip twice. No remover wants to trade a spin/court change for a toxic because Gliscor can always come back later. Corviknight is the only Pokémon where the relationship changes and improves the situation BUT 1) this does not change the fact that Gliscor's longevity allows it to easily get its spikes up again once Corv is down and 2) people are starting to experiment with variants to the common Spikes set, notably slotting in Taunt, which denies defog

 

[SpritePony]

You don't have to "see two high ranked OU titans" to see how Gliscor functions without Ghold, you can simply try it on ladder, or play ladder games until you run into a team like this (spoiler: pretty much every stall team has Gliscor without Ghold)

You'll find that Gliscor is still an issue even without Ghold because of the difficulty breaking it down, speed and ease of health recovery, extremely limited pool of counterplay, and laundry list of immunities, along with the threat it poses to all forms of removal excluding Corviknight. Great Tusk can't come in without taking a Toxic and Gliscor actually doesn't mind eating one Ice Spinner. It's easy for Gliscor to Toxic, Protect once or twice, leave (even if Tusk gets the spin,) wait for Tusk to be taken care of or even switch to scare it out, then just come right back out and get its spikes back up. Tusk can't survive 2-3 turns of toxic chip twice. No remover wants to trade a spin/court change for a toxic because Gliscor can always come back later. Corviknight is the only Pokémon where the relationship changes and improves the situation BUT 1) this does not change the fact that Gliscor's longevity allows it to easily get its spikes up again once Corv is down and 2) people are starting to experiment with variants to the common Spikes set, notably slotting in Taunt, which denies defog

Okay, that's fair... but I'm looking for the community's reaction to it, since most of the discourse around it is related to hazards and hazard control. Tusk used to be tier king, then Gambit took its spot, but Tusk is still good. Just because Gliscor answers Tusk to such a good degree doesn't automatically make it a god tier thing (but that's just me making a stupid point.) Though part of the problem with Tusk vs Gliscor is the 4MSS that Tusk suffers from. EQ, HLR, CC, Ice Spinner, Spin, Knock, Taunt, Rocks... All things that Tusk WANTS to run but can't fit every time. Like... Taunt Tusk absolutely would shut down Gliscor -- assuming you're the offensive Tusk variant. now Gliscor can't Toxic, Protect, or set Hazards and either has to let you spin while you poke at it, or run away.

But of course, that's where Ghold comes in as the partner in crime -- especially Air Balloon Ghold. If you run Taunt + Ice Spinner over Knock + One of your STABs, then Ghold comes in for basically free. Take Ghold out and now you have to bring something else in to eat that hit (probably Gambit).

The reason I don't test this myself is because of a few reasons:
1. I'm already known for being a dogshit, low ladder scrub. I'm more proffiecient at theorymonning than I am with actually playing.
2. I pretty much retired from battling but wanted to step into the DLC1 discussion a bit.
3. I'M LOW LADDER! I want to see people who are better, and much more qualified, than me actually try this out and see how it hits. It isn't JUST about Gliscor-Tusk interactions. That's merely a vaccuum, just like everything else discussed here.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

i know we arent meant to theorymon on here but i wonder if foresight would have a niche as a moveslot if it was still around this generation. not sure why gamefreak dropped it but hitmontop could foresight on the gholdengo switch and force it out with fighting stab or rapid spin. It would even stop tera ghost from invalidating normal/fighting moves

foresight is a status move that targets the opponent so it wouldn't work on gholdengo. there's just no getting around it

Legitimately, I want to see two high ranked OU titans build teams that have Gliscor but no Ghold on it just to see how the community feels about Ghold being gone, but Gliscor remaining. Ghold is the stranglehold of the hazards metagame, and it would be vastly improved with it gone. Yet everyone seems to be throwing ALL of their darts at the opposite board toward Gliscor.
You know who else gets all 3 hazards to set? Glimmora, Clodsire, Quagsire, Mew, and Forretress. Yet, no one talks about them, it's always Gliscor, Gliscor, Gliscor.
Glim doesn't have anywhere near the survivability that Gliscor does, yet can still spin and apply SOME pressure with it's massive SpAtk stat.
Clodsire has many fatal flaws that Gliscor doesn't, but also has one defensive utility over Gliscor; Unaware.
Quagsire is well... Quagsire. Middling stats compared to Gliscor's dummy thiccness, but still has access to things like Unaware, Haze, and recovery.
Mew is Mew is Mew. 'nuff said.
Forretress is weaker than Gliscor by far, but only due to not having an amazing ability like Poison Heal. Forre also has the ability to spin, just like Glim.

Seriously, let's actually take some time to play around with some sparring matches using Gliscor and no Gholdengo, JUST to see how it hits for us. Yes, Gliscor wars will be a thing, but that has ALWAYS been a thing.

i used a team with gliscor and no ghold during the bloodmoon suspect and trust me, gliscor is still a problem without ghold backing it up. i literally do not have to use brain cells when that thing is on the field

 

[SpritePony]

foresight is a status move that targets the opponent so it wouldn't work on gholdengo. there's just no getting around it

i used a team with gliscor and no ghold during the bloodmoon suspect and trust me, gliscor is still a problem without ghold backing it up. i literally do not have to use brain cells when that thing is on the field

I'm the opposite, I find myself needing to think or losing to random junk. Especially Tera Steel on a Toxic.

 

[endi]

What's the end goal, even? What is the council fighting to achieve? Some nebulous "balance" meta? The inclusion of all playstyles, or as many as possible? Do they want fun? Fuck if I know, and fuck if they know too. What takes 18 bans, nearly 2 per month, to achieve?

My understanding is that, structurally, the goal is "A meta that includes all the mons that 60% (ban threshold) of the top 20% of players (80 GXE) want to include," not any more specific vision. I do wonder if you could embrace the "top usage-based tier" idea, and target a meta that has X number of mons with at least Y usage, or automatically suspect any mon that hits over Z usage, as a more mathematical way to look at tier diversity.

 

[1LDK]

Legitimately, I want to see two high ranked OU titans build teams that have Gliscor but no Ghold on it just to see how the community feels about Ghold being gone

Boy I have some replays for you, the following are replays for smogon's hottest tournament right now, Smogon Champions League (SCL) its a team tour like SPL but instead of everything being OU from this and other gens, this is about the tiers of the current gen, and I have some replays from last week to show matches with gliscor but no gholdengo, my match commentary is taken out of my week by week report

xavgb vs Nat: xavgb is packing some H E A T, with Mandibuzz and milotic, Nat also has a Zarude in the team, let's see how this plays out. We start with Gliscor simulator until xavgb goes clef, sets rocks, and Nat's gliscor U-turns. We see both milotic and zarude with boots. The clef also had a sticky barb, but couldn't pass it to zarude because zarude had an item. Then we see more gliscor experience until xavgb's dirge hits Nat's gliscor with the hex. Hex pult tries to chip heatran and dies to milotic's scald. Nothing really happens until we see Zarude bulking up, tera poison, and now it seems like it's game, nope, zarude does minimal damage to mandibuzz even with boosted knock off and mandy just laughs at it and iron defense, tera fires for pult, and we see Nat's pult being double status, that ain't stopping mandy tho. Dragapult + Milotic kill dirge, the former also finishes zarude and Dnite cannot do a 1v4 while burned


Separation vs Storm Zone: Separation is using a fat balance with Weavile, while Storm Zone is using BO with gliscor and ogerpon-W. Everyone gets free hits on gliscor and dies early game. After some back and forth Storm's Glowking tanks 2 crunches from zama and sludge bombs, valiant ends the job, Corviknight ID and seems ready to sweep, but valiant forces it off. Ting Lu dies to grass knot from storm zone's glowking, and is packing flamethrower, so forces out corviknight again. After some dancing, future sight + gambit kills zapdos. Weavile kills Ace, and tera ice to kill valiant. kingambit destroys it, ogerpon dismantles Separation's glowking and SZ's glowking burns corviknight down to win the game

Joeshh vs Sylveon used calm mind: 242 turns of Gliscor meta, this one is really fucking long, so watch under your own risk

this 3 happened last week, I also have Niko vs Carkoala, which happened today actually

Niko vs Carkoala: We see Niko using the team Xavgb used last week, let's see how he does. Volcanion traps the milotic, but mirror coat + being faster means Milotic can easily force volcanion out. SD Sitrus berry Scizor punches milotic into death, but gets forced out by dirge, who then burns the ting lu, whirlwinds it away into pult who U-turns right back into it, gets whirlwind into mandy and clef. Carkoala sacks Enam by healing wishing into Volcanion, who survives a draco meteor by pult but will die to spikes later, pult lives at 3 hp and ting lu dies of eq by gliscor, and then gliscor tera dragons and goes to mandy. Mandy gets to +4 defense and tusk gets to +4 attack, so both get into a war, one that tusk wins with a crit. Almost kills dirge too. But lives and torch songs him goodnight songs. Scizor kills pult but can kill gliscor, dragapult gets stalled out by protect stalling


If you wanna see more commentary on this, stay tunned, every Sunday at night I release this

 

[SpritePony]

Boy I have some replays for you, the following are replays for smogon's hottest tournament right now, Smogon Champions League (SCL) its a team tour like SPL but instead of everything being OU from this and other gens, this is about the tiers of the current gen, and I have some replays from last week to show matches with gliscor but no gholdengo, my match commentary is taken out of my week by week report

xavgb vs Nat: xavgb is packing some H E A T, with Mandibuzz and milotic, Nat also has a Zarude in the team, let's see how this plays out. We start with Gliscor simulator until xavgb goes clef, sets rocks, and Nat's gliscor U-turns. We see both milotic and zarude with boots. The clef also had a sticky barb, but couldn't pass it to zarude because zarude had an item. Then we see more gliscor experience until xavgb's dirge hits Nat's gliscor with the hex. Hex pult tries to chip heatran and dies to milotic's scald. Nothing really happens until we see Zarude bulking up, tera poison, and now it seems like it's game, nope, zarude does minimal damage to mandibuzz even with boosted knock off and mandy just laughs at it and iron defense, tera fires for pult, and we see Nat's pult being double status, that ain't stopping mandy tho. Dragapult + Milotic kill dirge, the former also finishes zarude and Dnite cannot do a 1v4 while burned


Separation vs Storm Zone: Separation is using a fat balance with Weavile, while Storm Zone is using BO with gliscor and ogerpon-W. Everyone gets free hits on gliscor and dies early game. After some back and forth Storm's Glowking tanks 2 crunches from zama and sludge bombs, valiant ends the job, Corviknight ID and seems ready to sweep, but valiant forces it off. Ting Lu dies to grass knot from storm zone's glowking, and is packing flamethrower, so forces out corviknight again. After some dancing, future sight + gambit kills zapdos. Weavile kills Ace, and tera ice to kill valiant. kingambit destroys it, ogerpon dismantles Separation's glowking and SZ's glowking burns corviknight down to win the game

Joeshh vs Sylveon used calm mind: 242 turns of Gliscor meta, this one is really fucking long, so watch under your own risk

this 3 happened last week, I also have Niko vs Carkoala, which happened today actually

Niko vs Carkoala: We see Niko using the team Xavgb used last week, let's see how he does. Volcanion traps the milotic, but mirror coat + being faster means Milotic can easily force volcanion out. SD Sitrus berry Scizor punches milotic into death, but gets forced out by dirge, who then burns the ting lu, whirlwinds it away into pult who U-turns right back into it, gets whirlwind into mandy and clef. Carkoala sacks Enam by healing wishing into Volcanion, who survives a draco meteor by pult but will die to spikes later, pult lives at 3 hp and ting lu dies of eq by gliscor, and then gliscor tera dragons and goes to mandy. Mandy gets to +4 defense and tusk gets to +4 attack, so both get into a war, one that tusk wins with a crit. Almost kills dirge too. But lives and torch songs him goodnight songs. Scizor kills pult but can kill gliscor, dragapult gets stalled out by protect stalling


If you wanna see more commentary on this, stay tunned, every Sunday at night I release this

Thank you. Once I get a moment from this game I will 100% look over those.

 

[ianlazerbeem]

Okay, that's fair... but I'm looking for the community's reaction to it, since most of the discourse around it is related to hazards and hazard control. Tusk used to be tier king, then Gambit took its spot, but Tusk is still good. Just because Gliscor answers Tusk to such a good degree doesn't automatically make it a god tier thing (but that's just me making a stupid point.) Though part of the problem with Tusk vs Gliscor is the 4MSS that Tusk suffers from. EQ, HLR, CC, Ice Spinner, Spin, Knock, Taunt, Rocks... All things that Tusk WANTS to run but can't fit every time. Like... Taunt Tusk absolutely would shut down Gliscor -- assuming you're the offensive Tusk variant. now Gliscor can't Toxic, Protect, or set Hazards and either has to let you spin while you poke at it, or run away.

But of course, that's where Ghold comes in as the partner in crime -- especially Air Balloon Ghold. If you run Taunt + Ice Spinner over Knock + One of your STABs, then Ghold comes in for basically free. Take Ghold out and now you have to bring something else in to eat that hit (probably Gambit).

The reason I don't test this myself is because of a few reasons:
1. I'm already known for being a dogshit, low ladder scrub. I'm more proffiecient at theorymonning than I am with actually playing.
2. I pretty much retired from battling but wanted to step into the DLC1 discussion a bit.
3. I'M LOW LADDER! I want to see people who are better, and much more qualified, than me actually try this out and see how it hits. It isn't JUST about Gliscor-Tusk interactions. That's merely a vaccuum, just like everything else discussed here.

The thing with Tusk's "4MSS" is that this is a new problem, and framing it as a Tusk issue is downplaying the way that Gliscor warps teambuilding. Tusk is now forced to run Ice Spinner as its one of the few moves in the tier that can actually even significantly chip Gliscor. This Pokémon specifically is why Tusk is so restricted in what it would like to run.

I don't think anyone "knows you for being a dogshit player," people tend not to think much of poor players, and there are no good players without bad ones. Just keep practicing, everyone starts somewhere and everyone can learn, practice is how it's done. I wouldn't recommend trying to dictate discussion if you aren't playing. This Chairman Mao quote is relevant:

"Unless you have investigated a problem, you will be deprived of the right to speak on it. Isn't that too harsh? Not in the least. When you have not probed into a problem, into the present facts and its past history, and know nothing of its essentials, whatever you say about it will undoubtedly be nonsense. Talking nonsense solves no problems, as everyone knows, so why is it unjust to deprive you of the right to speak? Quite a few comrades always keep their eyes shut and talk nonsense, and for a Communist that is disgraceful. How can a Communist keep his eyes shut and talk nonsense?"

 

[Deleted User [52440]]

Spikes having 8PP is the nerf this gen needs.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

Unrelated because I dont wanna double post but have we considered Inverse Kokoloko tiering for the beginning of Indigo Disk? Drop almost everything we banned, except the shit that got 85+% ban votes because holy FUCK that would be banned for a reason. Perhaps shit will be balanced when we have the full crop harvested, and not just one base game field? I don't fully believe in it, but it can't be worse than some of the shit proposed here. Darkrai

that's the exact thing they did with crown tundra and it killed the meta before it even took its first breath of air. i don't think it would be advisable to repeat that, but i have a sinking feeling it's going to happen anyway

This Chairman Mao quote is relevant:

when in doubt, just look to the guy with the largest death toll in history, surely you'll find the answer to your problems there
(edit: he went onto my profile page and called me a holocaust denialist for saying this. talk about keeping your eyes shut and talking nonsense)

 

[RaikouLover]

There's very much a sunk-cost fallacy at play. A lot of people dedicated to Smogon are doing so because they've already put in a lot of time and emotional energy into making it work, and the fact that we've reached a point where it seemingly isn't, and we're essentially fighting with the game itself, understandably is pushing them to breaking point. There really is no easy answer here on what to do.

Yes there is. Ban Tera! All the problems lead back to Tera.

 

[SpritePony]

The thing with Tusk's "4MSS" is that this is a new problem, and framing it as a Tusk issue is downplaying the way that Gliscor warps teambuilding. Tusk is now forced to run Ice Spinner as its one of the few moves in the tier that can actually even significantly chip Gliscor. This Pokémon specifically is why Tusk is so restricted in what it would like to run.

I don't think anyone "knows you for being a dogshit player," people tend not to think much of poor players, and there are no good players without bad ones. Just keep practicing, everyone starts somewhere and everyone can learn, practice is how it's done. I wouldn't recommend trying to dictate discussion if you aren't playing. This Chairman Mao quote is relevant:

"Unless you have investigated a problem, you will be deprived of the right to speak on it. Isn't that too harsh? Not in the least. When you have not probed into a problem, into the present facts and its past history, and know nothing of its essentials, whatever you say about it will undoubtedly be nonsense. Talking nonsense solves no problems, as everyone knows, so why is it unjust to deprive you of the right to speak? Quite a few comrades always keep their eyes shut and talk nonsense, and for a Communist that is disgraceful. How can a Communist keep his eyes shut and talk nonsense?"

Tusk's 4MSS isn't something new, at least not to me. I religiously run offense utility Tusk and find myself in the dilemma of "Okay, I have EQ, CC, Spin... Do I carry Knock, Rocks, or Taunt?" Usually I'd take Knock since back then Knock wasn't a TM and very few mons had it. Now I can freely slot off Knock for Rocks/Taunt/Ice Spin, but still have the 4MSS.

People do know me for being dogshit, actually. I've openly stated it multiple times and it was one of the driving points to me quitting. Not everyone does, since I'm just some nobody, but some who remember me will know that I talk down about myself (rather honestly at that) a fair bit. Been playing since Gen 3, online battles since Gen 4, got better but I've plateaued. I'm better in the team builder than I am in play. Always the general, never the army.

Ah yes, let's just shut out someone's opinion because they aren't currently balls deep into the current metagame. I bet you want to shut out my opinion because I prefer to play on cart over Showdown, too. :P

Boy I have some replays for you, the following are replays for smogon's hottest tournament right now, Smogon Champions League (SCL) its a team tour like SPL but instead of everything being OU from this and other gens, this is about the tiers of the current gen, and I have some replays from last week to show matches with gliscor but no gholdengo, my match commentary is taken out of my week by week report

xavgb vs Nat: xavgb is packing some H E A T, with Mandibuzz and milotic, Nat also has a Zarude in the team, let's see how this plays out. We start with Gliscor simulator until xavgb goes clef, sets rocks, and Nat's gliscor U-turns. We see both milotic and zarude with boots. The clef also had a sticky barb, but couldn't pass it to zarude because zarude had an item. Then we see more gliscor experience until xavgb's dirge hits Nat's gliscor with the hex. Hex pult tries to chip heatran and dies to milotic's scald. Nothing really happens until we see Zarude bulking up, tera poison, and now it seems like it's game, nope, zarude does minimal damage to mandibuzz even with boosted knock off and mandy just laughs at it and iron defense, tera fires for pult, and we see Nat's pult being double status, that ain't stopping mandy tho. Dragapult + Milotic kill dirge, the former also finishes zarude and Dnite cannot do a 1v4 while burned


Separation vs Storm Zone: Separation is using a fat balance with Weavile, while Storm Zone is using BO with gliscor and ogerpon-W. Everyone gets free hits on gliscor and dies early game. After some back and forth Storm's Glowking tanks 2 crunches from zama and sludge bombs, valiant ends the job, Corviknight ID and seems ready to sweep, but valiant forces it off. Ting Lu dies to grass knot from storm zone's glowking, and is packing flamethrower, so forces out corviknight again. After some dancing, future sight + gambit kills zapdos. Weavile kills Ace, and tera ice to kill valiant. kingambit destroys it, ogerpon dismantles Separation's glowking and SZ's glowking burns corviknight down to win the game

Joeshh vs Sylveon used calm mind: 242 turns of Gliscor meta, this one is really fucking long, so watch under your own risk

this 3 happened last week, I also have Niko vs Carkoala, which happened today actually

Niko vs Carkoala: We see Niko using the team Xavgb used last week, let's see how he does. Volcanion traps the milotic, but mirror coat + being faster means Milotic can easily force volcanion out. SD Sitrus berry Scizor punches milotic into death, but gets forced out by dirge, who then burns the ting lu, whirlwinds it away into pult who U-turns right back into it, gets whirlwind into mandy and clef. Carkoala sacks Enam by healing wishing into Volcanion, who survives a draco meteor by pult but will die to spikes later, pult lives at 3 hp and ting lu dies of eq by gliscor, and then gliscor tera dragons and goes to mandy. Mandy gets to +4 defense and tusk gets to +4 attack, so both get into a war, one that tusk wins with a crit. Almost kills dirge too. But lives and torch songs him goodnight songs. Scizor kills pult but can kill gliscor, dragapult gets stalled out by protect stalling


If you wanna see more commentary on this, stay tunned, every Sunday at night I release this

Going to give some commentary on these as I go through them.

xav vs Nat: I saw the Gliscor war coming from a mile away... But mid-game (notably Clef vs Gliscor) I see some... Weirdly bad plays going on. Cold is obviously doing Protect stalling and xav keeps clicking Moonblast into the Protect... I'm also seeing a lot of Boots: The Team going on here (barring Clef and Magic Guard.) Okay. That Mandibuzz is HEAT. Good lord. But yeah, 60+ turns JUST to deal with a Gliscor is pretty damn rough, but to be fair Showdown doesn't have any sort of built-in game timer compared to cart... And that's where I find there to be some issues with this. I'm 99% sure that this game would've been way shorter or more aggressive otherwise with the 20min time. That end game was clean, though.

Storm vs Separation: That Gliscor did next to nothing. Weavile ate it for dinner and then it was just one layer of Spikes to deal with. From there, Storm pretty much just outplayed Sep cleanly.

Joeshh vs Sylveon: Oooooh boy. Time for some popcorn! Wait, wasn't this one linked earlier in the thread? I remember this Clef vs Gliscor opening. Pretty sure I've seen this one.

Niko vs Carkoala: First glance, it looks like Niko is running the same team as xav. More Boots: The Team going on here. Mandibuzz puts in work, Tusk gets a little too greedy... I'm not really sure what to make on that one, since Gliscor only really came in, put up a single layer of Spikes, switched in a couple of times and only really took one KO without stalling anything out. It was just clean team play on a fat af team.

Overall I see a lot of boots and one game of stupid levels of stall, but not much going on in terms of actual hazard control. Just hazard management. Not sure where my opinion is meant to be shifted from this, as Gliscor... Just sort of existed. Is the problem here that it forces people to run boots? I'm actually confused and don't understand.

 

[Komodo_Drogo]

Considering what seems to be the general opinion on hazards, I'm surprised nobody has mentioned how even the setters can take advantage of tera and become spinblockers also. I know it's not really a common thing, and as far as I know only Garganacl had it as a consistent option, but considering the strength of gliscor, I wouldn't be surprised to see it also start using tera ghost to protect its hazards if it really wanted.

 

[Gondre19Wedj]

Yes there is. Ban Tera! All the problems lead back to Tera.

I don’t think the current hazard issues are due to Tera. From the games I’ve watched, hazard setters, including Gliscor, don’t Tera, and neither does Ghold.

 

[artificialdeath]

of all the political comparisons to be made in these threads, the Mao quote about "no investigation, no right to speak" has probably been the least expected one. still not the most insane one weve seen though so well done

 

[Wapf]

I don’t think the current hazard issues are due to Tera. From the games I’ve watched, hazard setters, including Gliscor, don’t Tera, and neither does Ghold.

Gliscor is pushed over the edge because of tera imo. If it couldn’t tera we could just run random ice moves on everything and deal with it like we used to deal with lando t before. The fact that it can just tera water and be impossible to one shot is why it’s so easy to get hazards up with

 

[Return to Zero]

Considering what seems to be the general opinion on hazards, I'm surprised nobody has mentioned how even the setters can take advantage of tera and become spinblockers also. I know it's not really a common thing, and as far as I know only Garganacl had it as a consistent option, but considering the strength of gliscor, I wouldn't be surprised to see it also start using tera ghost to protect its hazards if it really wanted.

Could be an adaptation if Gholdengo gets banned, but right now Tera Ghost isn't that good for it since it hurts Gliscor's ability to absorb Knock Off for teammates. Garg gets away with it more because its ability gives it a Ghost resistance and leaves it only weak to Dark after Tera.

 

[MisogiKurakawa]

Yes there is. Ban Tera! All the problems lead back to Tera.

I....really would not say that the majority of the bans this gen were because of Tera, TBH. Tera has exasperated many problems, but besides Volcarona and Regieleki, the majority of the bans have been for entirely separate factors, many of them tied to Gamefreak not balancing the game around 6v6 Singles, or seemingly not considering balance at all for "special" mons like Legendaries and Paradoxes, due to their symbolic purpose being to break the game.

 

[ianlazerbeem]

I....really would not say that the majority of the bans this gen were because of Tera, TBH. Tera has exasperated many problems, but besides Volcarona and Regieleki, the majority of the bans have been for entirely separate factors, many of them tied to Gamefreak not balancing the game around 6v6 Singles, or seemingly not considering balance at all for "special" mons like Legendaries and Paradoxes, due to their symbolic purpose being to break the game.

Prior bans? Maybe not. The fact that the metagame is still nowhere close to balanced and will take an estimate of at least 5 more bans to get there? Hmmm

 

[veti]

Prior bans? Maybe not. The fact that the metagame is still nowhere close to balanced and will take an estimate of at least 5 more bans to get there? Hmmm

The metagame is very balanced even with broken Roaring Moon running around, and nothing else is really oppressive in battle or in builder. Tera even makes it easier to check some mons (see: psyshock gholdengo 6-0ing all stalls without tera dark blissey)

 

[RaikouLover]

I....really would not say that the majority of the bans this gen were because of Tera, TBH. Tera has exasperated many problems,

….if that is how you want to phrase it!

The metagame is very balanced even with broken Roaring Moon running around, and nothing else is really oppressive in battle or in builder. Tera even makes it easier to check some mons (see: psyshock gholdengo 6-0ing all stalls without tera dark blissey)

Broken vs. broken isn’t balanced. That’s an illusion.

Why should Blissey be able check mons with the move Psyshock? A move that was seemingly designed because of Blissey. Thank you for adding to the list of Tera foolery. Blissey now walls Psyshock. Ban this cheap mechanic.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

Broken vs. broken isn’t balanced. That’s an illusion.

Why should Blissey be able check mons with the move Psyshock? A move that was seemingly designed because of Blissey. Thank you for adding to the list of Tera foolery. Blissey now walls Psyshock. Ban this cheap mechanic.

…you mean to tell me that you believe tera dark blissey is broken?