Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v3

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heileone said:
Would you say that in this case protect is a move that needs to be discussed?
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I’d say an example like this is unprecedented, so we would have to discuss more. Closest parallel would probably be Baton Pass, which was only broken on a larger handful of Pokemon (I’d argue 3-5 immediately, but you could interchange the BP teams and users had it gone deeper). That move ended up banned across numerous generations and restricted heavily in others (in my opinion, it should be banned). Would Protect suffer the same fate? I highly doubt it; I think the three Pokemon would be banned then, but it would deserve a lot of discussion for being so unique.

And that’s the whole point: we want to discuss this because it’s a unique situation. Literally in my last post I said this, too. I can’t just make up precedent or tiering policy as I go — that’s for the community and that’s the point.
 
Finchinator said:
And that’s the whole point: we want to discuss this because it’s a unique situation. Literally in my last post I said this, too. I can’t just make up precedent or tiering policy as I go — that’s for the community and that’s the point.
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This is completely fair. I can understand the argument now, especially with the baton pass example. Thanks for the response.
 
yNot Mence said:
IMO there's no way for Espathra to be balanced, even in a Tera-less meta. Speed Boost + Stored Power is such an absurdly cheap, skilless and uncompetitive strategy that forces way too many matchup wins, and would still warp the teambuilding process so much by having to include a Dark-type mon in every team in order not to lose against it. It's a situation similar to Ape's Ragefist, where the whole 350 BP move is enough of an excuse to consider this mon unworthy of being in OU.
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I hard disagree with this. Non-passive Steel and Psychic-type Pokemon can also beat Espathra, such as Taunt Magma Storm Heatran, CM Nuzzle Hatterene, Scizor, Goodra-Hisui, and Iron Treads. Scream Tail would also be able to Encore it and allow you to switch to something that beats it. Espathra is fearmongered by very banhappy people as being still broken even without Tera, but I'm not convinced that that will be the case especially given how Kingambit, which would be a top and non-broken mon in a Teraless meta would still be used on many teams to hard stop Espathra.

Gholdengo might also be balanced in a Teraless meta, and it would also counter Espathra. Espathra would just not be an issue if it couldn't change its horrible defensive typing to something else and get Tera Blast to cheese past what would be counters. Would it be unfun to face? Quite possibly. Broken? Absolutely not. Banning mons because they are unfun to face such as Toxapex in Gen 7 would have top players laughing at you.
 
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Copland said:
Still don't think you're getting what I'm saying with the Shed Tail/Last Respects comparisons. Both were handled messily from a tiering perspective--though it was obvious that the moves and not the users were broken, it took multiple users to "prove" the moves were broken before action was taken.
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If you feel that way, then your anger should be pointed at Smogon tiering policy, not at me or my council. That goes above our head and it’s our job to adhere to it — not contradict it.

I made it explicitly known multiple times over I wanted to just ban the move for Last Respects as it was clear what was going to happen when more were released (and that’s exactly what happened with Last Respects). Shed Tail was less clear as Orthworm was hardly ever used and it was super early in the generation, but as soon as I got enough survey support, I quickbanned it. Didn’t even bother with a suspect.

Given what happened and all of this information that is very publicly known, being angry at me or my council with what you’re saying is just baffling. So I don’t know if you just don’t know your facts or you don’t know where to place your frustrations, but your last post came off as rude as hell and claiming we handled it messily when we quote literally exhausted every possible prospect is wild.
Tera Blast will never reach that level, even among the users we've already banned. Volc and Espathra are still very much broken without Tera Blast so long as they can change their typing.
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This is baffling to say about Volcarona given its history. Saying it’s “very much broken without Tera blast” when it strictly used it to get banned and has never been in this same position otherwise or never banned via suspect otherwise is nuts. Perhaps the trend in your posts is fitting your narrative rather than noticing community data and precedent.
Coulda been a bit more diplomatic but all I'm saying is this: don't waste time with a Tera Blast suspect when there's far more pressing matters at hand. It's a nonsensical, fence-sitting position that will only frustrate the community. There's broken Pokémon and hazards to be addressed first with a second DLC on the horizon.
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Ok, then respond to the survey rating it lowly. This is quite literally the point of including it. I am glad it’s being discussed, but it absolutely deserves to be discussed.
Appreciate the chance to chat with you. Best of luck fixing the tier.
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Have a nice day.
 
Avira said:
I highlight again that I am very pro-Ban on the Terastal mechanic, but I ask those of you who are against a Tera Blast ban to consider that an outright ban on Tera is not happening until you can convince fencesitters who want to try a restriction on Tera before a complete ban on the mechanic as this group needs to be sufficiently appeased before we can axe Terastal. If you never give this camp a chance to try out a restriction, the likelihood of an outright ban is just quite low. Please see the bigger picture in that a black-and-white view often prevents progress even in real world settings.

Similarly, some pro-Tera players have an interest in banning Tera Blast because banning Tera Blast will not change the spirit of the mechanic, would result in Volcarona, Espathra (broken with Tera Blast Fighting to break Steel and Dark-type Pokemon), Regieleki, and Kingambit being nerfed, relieving teambuilder constraints to an extent when considering all the other threats with niche or very niche Tera Blast sets such as Iron Moth, Sneasler, Dragonite, Enamorus, Landorus-Therian, Polteageist, Lilligant-Hisui, Thundurus-Therian, Sandy Shocks, and Moltres-Galar.
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Gotta say this is one of the posts thats pissed me off the most in a long while. My dude is literally calling for Tera Blast ban as a way to get Terastallization in its entirety banned? If we DID do a restriction, shouldn't we be focused on finding a restriction that makes Terastallization balanced? It seems like the whole reason half of you want a tera blast ban is because you see it as the easiest way to a full tera ban. This is not the attitude we should go with when discussing this mechanic. How does anyone else let this type of scheming slide when theyre blatantly saying this publically??? If I were on council I would immediately disregard this opinion because theyre not actually focused on trying to find a solution to Tera. They just want it banned and will do whatever it takes to get it. We're no longer even discussing how to properly make tera fair.

I am very much of the camp that Tera Blast ban just removes the usefulness of lower tier mons in OU. The mons that DO abuse tera blast are usually doing so because they are literally broken with it. You don't see Iron Moth or Valiant or Hamarott commonly needing to use Tera Blast. And its because there is no one type of move that suddenly makes these pokemon broken. Volcarona used it and Kingambit currently uses it because they are/were already teetering on the edge of broken. Just ban these mons already. If you want to argue it allows you to choose which matchups you win, like others have pointed out, thats tera in a nutshell and doesn't go away as soon as you remove tera blast.

Look at an actual balanced mon in OU. Cinderace COULD abuse tera blast to allow it to beat Dondozo, but while it could get a kill on Dondozo that would more than likely require chip. If it doesnt instantly kill, Dozo just reverse teras into dragon and rests. And even if you can get the kill on Dozo this tera does not even help you in the pex matchup. You could run tera blast psychic for Pex, but that is pretty much just worse than running Tera Psychic Zen Headbutt. For most mons, they dont even care about Tera Blast because their natural movepools are usually pretty good. If they had to rely on Tera Blast for coverage that already limits them so much by forcing them to be the terastallizer or it has some useless special normal move.

TLDR: Tera Blast Ban is not the way to fix tera. Its getting a lot of support from people like the one above that are just hellbent on banning tera. We should be looking at a restriction that allows us to keep tera, not one that would force us to ban it. Ironically I did consider myself more of a fencesitter on the topic recently but this post just pushed me back to Pro-Tera
 
gregdawiz said:
Gotta say this is one of the posts thats pissed me off the most in a long while. My dude is literally calling for Tera Blast ban as a way to get Terastallization in its entirety banned? If we DID do a restriction, shouldn't we be focused on finding a restriction that makes Terastallization balanced? It seems like the whole reason half of you want a tera blast ban is because you see it as the easiest way to a full tera ban. This is not the attitude we should go with when discussing this mechanic. How does anyone else let this type of scheming slide when theyre blatantly saying this publically??? If I were on council I would immediately disregard this opinion because theyre not actually focused on trying to find a solution to Tera. They just want it banned and will do whatever it takes to get it. We're no longer even discussing how to properly make tera fair.

I am very much of the camp that Tera Blast ban just removes the usefulness of lower tier mons in OU. The mons that DO abuse tera blast are usually doing so because they are literally broken with it. You don't see Iron Moth or Valiant or Hamarott commonly needing to use Tera Blast. And its because there is no one type of move that suddenly makes these pokemon broken. Volcarona used it and Kingambit currently uses it because they are/were already teetering on the edge of broken. Just ban these mons already. If you want to argue it allows you to choose which matchups you win, like others have pointed out, thats tera in a nutshell and doesn't go away as soon as you remove tera blast.

Look at an actual balanced mon in OU. Cinderace COULD abuse tera blast to allow it to beat Dondozo, but while it could get a kill on Dondozo that would more than likely require chip. If it doesnt instantly kill, Dozo just reverse teras into dragon and rests. And even if you can get the kill on Dozo this tera does not even help you in the pex matchup. You could run tera blast psychic for Pex, but that is pretty much just worse than running Tera Psychic Zen Headbutt. For most mons, they dont even care about Tera Blast because their natural movepools are usually pretty good. If they had to rely on Tera Blast for coverage that already limits them so much by forcing them to be the terastallizer or it has some useless special normal move.

TLDR: Tera Blast Ban is not the way to fix tera. Its getting a lot of support from people like the one above that are just hellbent on banning tera. We should be looking at a restriction that allows us to keep tera, not one that would force us to ban it. Ironically I did consider myself more of a fencesitter on the topic recently but this post just pushed me back to Pro-Tera
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lol, you are pressed as hell. A Tera Blast ban would meaningfully improve the meta by freeing a few mons and reducing the ability of mons to cheese past their checks, and yes, it would also be the best nerf to Tera that doesn't go against the spirit of the mechanic. Tera Preview, on the other hand, your preferred restriction, would actually make the meta worse since it'd increase the number of 50/50s and reduce skill expression in the meta. If all it took was post was to make you pro-Tera again, you were never really a fencesitter in the first place and were always leaning or strongly leaning pro-Tera considering you think Kingambit without Tera is still banworthy.

And if anyone needs reminding of this guy's stance on Tera:

gregdawiz said:
Honestly not totally because, while youre right other metas dont have an impact on higher tiers, they do have similarities in the way that theyre handling bans and how those bans affect the meta. Its not like OU just has fundamentally different pokemon than lower tiers, all tiers consist of the same type of pokemon (pivots, bulky attackers, sweepers, breakers, walls etc)

Ultimately what this just says to me is that lower tiers actually do a GOOD job of banning the pokemon that are broken with Tera. Not to shit on the council because theyre getting it from all ends constantly, but lower tiers dont have a problem with tera because they are quicker with the ban hammer popping pokemon that could be broken with it.

Tera is a type of mechanic where if it stays in the gen its going to result in pushing things from powerful to problematic and that doesnt just stop at the 18 or so pokemon we banned from OU. We will probably need to ban more. We should find they happy middle ground where the sweepers and breakers we have arent having their job done for them by simply clicking tera. Its why Im in favor of many more bans. Lower tiers do a good job at this and its why you dont see as many problems with tera down there.
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You were never a fencesitter, and don't pretend that you were as it's just a stupid bad-faith argument and a nonsensical attempt to manipulate people emotionally. You posted this before my post, so it was clear where you stood even before I made my post.
 
Finchinator said:
I made it explicitly known multiple times over I wanted to just ban the move for Last Respects as it was clear what was going to happen when more were released (and that’s exactly what happened with Last Respects).
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Basculin-White gets Last Respects last I checked. Is there any reason that keeping it legal wasn’t entertained? Idk maybe :basculin-white-striped: could’ve been a Healthy Metagame Presence™
 
gregdawiz said:
Gotta say this is one of the posts thats pissed me off the most in a long while. My dude is literally calling for Tera Blast ban as a way to get Terastallization in its entirety banned? If we DID do a restriction, shouldn't we be focused on finding a restriction that makes Terastallization balanced? It seems like the whole reason half of you want a tera blast ban is because you see it as the easiest way to a full tera ban. This is not the attitude we should go with when discussing this mechanic. How does anyone else let this type of scheming slide when theyre blatantly saying this publically??? If I were on council I would immediately disregard this opinion because theyre not actually focused on trying to find a solution to Tera. They just want it banned and will do whatever it takes to get it. We're no longer even discussing how to properly make tera fair.

I am very much of the camp that Tera Blast ban just removes the usefulness of lower tier mons in OU. The mons that DO abuse tera blast are usually doing so because they are literally broken with it. You don't see Iron Moth or Valiant or Hamarott commonly needing to use Tera Blast. And its because there is no one type of move that suddenly makes these pokemon broken. Volcarona used it and Kingambit currently uses it because they are/were already teetering on the edge of broken. Just ban these mons already. If you want to argue it allows you to choose which matchups you win, like others have pointed out, thats tera in a nutshell and doesn't go away as soon as you remove tera blast.

Look at an actual balanced mon in OU. Cinderace COULD abuse tera blast to allow it to beat Dondozo, but while it could get a kill on Dondozo that would more than likely require chip. If it doesnt instantly kill, Dozo just reverse teras into dragon and rests. And even if you can get the kill on Dozo this tera does not even help you in the pex matchup. You could run tera blast psychic for Pex, but that is pretty much just worse than running Tera Psychic Zen Headbutt. For most mons, they dont even care about Tera Blast because their natural movepools are usually pretty good. If they had to rely on Tera Blast for coverage that already limits them so much by forcing them to be the terastallizer or it has some useless special normal move.

TLDR: Tera Blast Ban is not the way to fix tera. Its getting a lot of support from people like the one above that are just hellbent on banning tera. We should be looking at a restriction that allows us to keep tera, not one that would force us to ban it. Ironically I did consider myself more of a fencesitter on the topic recently but this post just pushed me back to Pro-Tera
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Okay no, you're not supposed to fix tera, you're supposed to decide whether it's broken or not. Thats the purpose of suspect tests. Honestly, at this point I don't care if it doesn't get banned either, tier always has some issue, which is not the fault of the council. And the reason it's kept to a yes or no question is because of the current splintering in how to "fix tera". The tier Is like this because people like it that way, finch has made it very clear they're operating off what indications we give through surveys and the discussions.
 
1LDK said:
Want me to do an edit/meme of "5 nights at the OU Forum Discussion"?
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And on the 5th night, you have to deal with me going off into a tangent about how good Double Dance Gliscor is, again… (shitpost related).

IMG_3968.jpeg


Would suck if Gliscor got quickbanned though cause then this won’t even be relevant anymore lmao

at least before I start using Dual Wingbeat + Roost Salamence
 
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Avira said:
lol, you are pressed as hell. A Tera Blast ban would meaningfully improve the meta by freeing a few mons and reducing the ability of mons to cheese past their checks, and yes, it would also be the best nerf to Tera that doesn't go against the spirit of the mechanic. Tera Preview, on the other hand, your preferred restriction, would actually make the meta worse since it'd increase the number of 50/50s and reduce skill expression in the meta. If all it took was post was to make you pro-Tera again, you were never really a fencesitter in the first place and were always leaning or strongly leaning pro-Tera considering you think Kingambit without Tera is still banworthy.

And if anyone needs reminding of this guy's stance on Tera:

You were never a fencesitter, and don't pretend that you were as it's just a stupid bad-faith argument and a nonsensical attempt to manipulate people emotionally. You posted this before my post, so it was clear where you stood even before I made my post.
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Please do not tell me my own opinions on Tera. I am not in favor of Tera Preview, I've posted previously that I am in favor of Tera Captains. If you have an issue with that as a potential restriction, you can argue that point instead. I think Tera Preview would not be a smart restriction.

That being said I am pro-restriction which means I am a fence-sitter. I do think parts of tera are broken and I would like to see it restricted in a way that allows us to still keep the mechanic but I can acknowledge there are parts of the mechanic that warp the way we play too much. The second post you quoted I may have been a little overzealous in explaining how much better lower tiers are. Truthfully I don't think tera is picture perfect in lower tiers, I just think its a lot more manageable that it is in OU due to the reasons I laid out. Even if we made every ban I was happy with, there is still a chance tera is just broken.

But I acknowledge the parts of tera I really like as well. I want to find an answer that allows us to keep the mechanic even if we have to change some form of it. To be honest, I'm not sure there is an answer that makes tera not broken! If we can't find a restriction that works than I agree the best move is to ban tera. But I want to find a restriction first that actually works and gives tera the best possibility to remain in the tier. Maybe that means banning mons, maybe that means restriction idk but we should give it every chance it has to succeed because I can see the reasons Pro-tera people want to keep it. I think that's the attitude we should have when discussing a tera restriction, not coming at tera to root for the first projected restriction that gets any amount of support to rush it thru a poorly thought out restriction that ultimately moves it directly into a ban.

I do still consider the possibility tera is fundamentally broken and am currently in the process of going through my own thoughts about it. Really I don't know so yes i have yet to make up my mind. I just even moreso don't want to throw in the tera towel because of posts like the one i quoted that almost outright state they want to manipulate the system to push for a tera ban asap.
 
all of them will regress to the mean since the more extreme viewpoints gain more by posting, and also there's plenty of top players who will just be lurking here.

the only Pokemon I expect to have a shot at reaching 4.0+ is Gliscor due to prior surveys + more people turning on him, i would be shocked if Ghold or Gambit broke 4.0. also sneasler could have sneaky high ratings, i could see it going up more now that it doesnt have to compete with moon, would not shock me to see it hit 3.0
 
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