Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v3

[BolTingBlazie]

I'm gonna miss Gliscor if it goes, its really strong but I really wish we could give it a fair shake without ghold around

It should be ghold as even if its not op, its definitely unhealthy and restricting


But on the bright side, Zamazenta counters are gonna be better with gliscor gone at least

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

BRO WHO IS "WE"?? Please stop assuming that everybody is on board to help you salvage this broken mechanic.
You don't have to agree, but I find this framing inherently invalidates the opinions of a large portion of this community.

last i checked, about 80% of the suspect voters were on board to "salvage this broken mechanic"

View attachment 566946

bye-bye bud, we'll miss you

call me no guard then because i'm not gonna miss this thing under any fucking circumstances

 

[Srn]

last i checked, about 90% of the suspect voters were on board to "salvage this broken mechanic"

call me no guard then because i'm not gonna miss this thing under any fucking circumstances

Out of 346 votes, a full ban got 76 votes (21.97%). This was the result of the first tera suspect, and we have no accurate data on how people would vote on tera since then. No clue where you pulled 90% from.

 

[BolTingBlazie]

Out of 346 votes, a full ban got 76 votes (21.97%). This was the result of the first tera suspect, and we have no accurate data on how people feel about tera since then. No clue where you pulled 90% from.

Things have definitely changed since then if I had to guess, so these statistics are definitely not as valid as they used to be.

I'm 95% sure the majority of players would support a full ban/tera preview as of right now, as anti tera sentiment is a lot more frequent and loud than it was back then when we tested it last back on release, i'm seeing a lot more people wanting it gone or wanting action nowadays than I did in the pre home metagame, so I am not sure if these statistics reflect the current time

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

Out of 346 votes, a full ban got 76 votes (21.97%). This was the result of the first tera suspect, and we have no accurate data on how people feel about tera since then. No clue where you pulled 90% from.

all right, so about 80% then. that doesn't change the fact that the vast majority of the community would rather keep the mechanic in some form

Things have definitely changed since then, so these statistics are definitely not as valid as they used to be.

I'm 95% sure the majority of players would support a full ban/tera preview as of right now, as anti tera sentiment is a lot more frequent and loud than it was back then when we tested it last.

anti-tera sentiment was pretty damn frequent and incredibly loud when we tested it last. the amount of discussion going on about something on the forums isn't representative of public sentiment at large. i recall the ban camp thinking it'd win last time too

 

[Srn]

all right, so about 80% then. that doesn't change the fact that the vast majority of the community would rather keep the mechanic in some form

Yes, I never said anything to the contrary.
This vast majority can't seem to agree on what restriction to try, and I'm guessing that no single option has over 60% supermajority support.

 

[Just A Shroom God]

Predicting that Tornadus-T and Alomomola finally become OU proper pokemon, as both have been getting a good amount of usage, moreso than last month where both were 0.3% away from rising prior and both have had resurgences as of late.

Also predicting that Toxapex and Landorus-T finally become UU pokemon for the first time, along with enamorus-I who I think might drop too as there really is no reason other than healing wish to run it over other fairies at the moment besides a ground immunity

as a UU player as of 2 weeks ago please don't remove my torn-t and alomomola please god I need them

 

[BolTingBlazie]

all right, so about 80% then. that doesn't change the fact that the vast majority of the community would rather keep the mechanic in some form

anti-tera sentiment was pretty damn frequent and incredibly loud when we tested it last. the amount of discussion going on about something on the forums isn't representative of public sentiment at large

My point is that anti tera sentiment is more frequent than it was before, so I think the statistics would be pretty different if taken right now

NOOOOOOOOO MY UU TEAM :((((

Well, at least both have found strong placements in OU through their buffs and reclaimed moves that they lost

And Tornadus-t being more viable here than Landorus-T is pretty funny admittedly all because torn-t can pull the knock off Regen stuff again, and Landorus-T still has its utility stripped from it

 

[Avira]

Out of 346 votes, a full ban got 76 votes (21.97%). This was the result of the first tera suspect, and we have no accurate data on how people would vote on tera since then. No clue where you pulled 90% from.

Preach, Srn. I'm tired of the pro-Tera group making up fake stats, such as a CLEAR majority being in favour of no action, and the 90% tidbit about the playerbase wanting to save Tera no matter what.

I believe if we were to have a ranked choice vote with the options being Ban Terastal, Ban Tera Blast, Implement Tera Preview, and No Action, Ban Tera Blast would win after 2 or 3 rounds, and we'd have a good change to the meta finally. I do not expect an outright ban to happen after the second Tera suspect.

 

[SDK03]

The SV OU tiering council is going to have a multifaceted vote to determine the best path to proceed on a particular Pokemon that received high survey scores. We will know more later today or tomorrow.

This better not mean what I think it means… Please no…

Please be Gholdengo instead

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

Preach, Srn. I'm tired of the pro-Tera group making up fake stats, such as a CLEAR majority being in favour of no action, and the 90% tidbit about the playerbase wanting to save Tera no matter what.

oh boy, you're gonna be pissed when tera survives the second suspect by a wider margin than the first

 

[BolTingBlazie]

oh boy, you're gonna be pissed when tera survives the second suspect by a wider margin than the first

Don't be assuming doomsday scenarios Buzzwole, these stats are not reflective on the playerbase's current stance at the moment as they were taken months ago, i've seen a number of people who changed their stance on tera after home and the DLC dropped.

Point being, things change over time, and the outcome may be different than the one you expect as just like OU the opinions of the playerbase evolve with time. These statistics obviously do not affect the current opinion on Tera as they were taken months ago

 

[ashleyumu]

Here is my problem with open tera though, it ruins the fun aspect about the mechanic and is only a bandaid fix on the variance issue, as even if you know the teratype, you still do not know when or if someone could click the button.

Knowing the tera type takes out a good bit of guessing - as it stands now with something like Kingambit, you don't know which tera type it is and thus don't know which pokemon you have to preserve in order to deal with it. It also allows you to potentially midground a lot more effectively without a handful of possible types it could turn into.

I'm also curious as to why you think it removes the "fun" aspect about the mechanic? I haven't felt this way at all in VGC, and while obviously VGC and Smogon singles are extremely different formats, I feel like the "fun" aspect of revealing tera types is something that translates fairly well.

 

[apoteosis]

We already agreed that Tera will stay.

Move on.

 

[1LDK]

we'll

Who's we lmaooooooooooo

 

[Carl The Turtle]

Who's we lmaooooooooooo

hey gliscor looks cool its not his fault he sucks to play against...

 

[Welcome to mars]

View attachment 566946

bye-bye bud, we'll miss you

Lord have mercy on his soul

 

[Welcome to mars]

i may be crazy, but this tier is deprived of any other specially defensive mons that aren’t passive

 

[JunkoAJ]

Preach, Srn. I'm tired of the pro-Tera group making up fake stats, such as a CLEAR majority being in favour of no action, and the 90% tidbit about the playerbase wanting to save Tera no matter what.

I mean, I think the most important point is that full ban was not the majority of votes and was not going to win in the poll had the Tera suspect gone the way of Action.

The SV OU tiering council is going to have a multifaceted vote to determine the best path to proceed on a particular Pokemon that received high survey scores. We will know more later today or tomorrow.

I assume multifaceted means it won't be an outright ban or not - maybe something along the lines of whether Gliscor is overwhelming because of Gholdengo?

Who's we lmaooooooooooo

I'm actually sad that it might get banned, it's such a cool mon.

 

[Welcome to mars]

Poliwrath has 90/95 physical bulk guys, we can make this work

 

[Finchinator]

I assume multifaceted means it won't be an outright ban or not - maybe something along the lines of whether Gliscor is overwhelming because of Gholdengo?

Vote is quickban, suspect, or no action

 

[gregdawiz]

This post is so confusing to me. If I want tera banned, as I do, when what other course of action would you expect me to take? Banning Tera Blast is better than nothing, and banning Tera fully is better than banning Tera Blast. If a full ban on tera isn't up for a vote, then why are you mad that I would vote to ban Tera Blast??? Why is it "scheming" that is being allowed to publicly slide, you're acting like I'm running thru the self-checkout with some red wine I shoplifted LOL.

Who are you to decide what "attitude we should go with" when discussing Tera? Why are you assuming that I want to "properly make tera fair"??? I don't believe a fair, balanced, and healthy metagame is possible as long as Tera is present in any form, so why am I being expected to "find a solution to Tera?"

BRO WHO IS "WE"?? Please stop assuming that everybody is on board to help you salvage this broken mechanic.
You don't have to agree, but I find this framing inherently invalidates the opinions of a large portion of this community.

Like was previously posted the large majority of players from the last full survey done on tera want tera to remain in OU to some extent at least. That number may have changed, but if the majority of players do want tera banned, then we should just go for the ban/no ban vote. We have not seen data that supports that yet, and we won't properly do a vote on it until DLC2 it seems. I agree we should do some form of restriction, but it seems like this tera blast thing is being pushed moreso because its *A* restriction that was proposed, not that its necessarily a good restriction. If you all truly believe banning tera blast is the best possible thing we can do for tera, than i rescind my outrage and apologize. But it doesn't seem like that is the case. If we are sitting with tera and proposing ideas for restrictions, which we are, the only thing that properly takes into account both sides of the argument (the people that want tera gone, the people that want it restricted, and the people that love tera) is the middle ground in restricting tera. And if we are discussing restricting tera you should be trying to restrict it in the way that is best that would make it the most balance. To do so otherwise, IS ignoring everyone who wants tera to stay as is as well as the people that want it restricted.

This hinges on people who are anti-tera wanting to push through any restriction whether or not its a good idea. If we get a restriction and its not well thought out, then the next course of action is for the community to ban it rather than find a more fitting restriction. Anti-tera people know that and its ultimately why any restriction, maybe even the worst restriction possible, would have backing from that group since its the closest path to a total ban. This ignores the entire half of the community that want to keep tera. The fact that we're looking at restrictions at all should appease the anti-tera crowd. If council is not doing their best to find the best possible restriction to keep tera balanced and in OU, they are ignoring the pro-tera side of the debate simply because of their own opinions on tera. If anybody believes tera is truly broken, then it shouldnt matter what restriction we go with it will all result in unbalance either way. So if you really think there is no way to "fix" tera nor do you want to find a way, you shouldn't have a say in deciding what restriction we go with. The people who want to keep tera (or elements of it) should be the ones deciding what restriction we go with. Any restriction is already a compromise, the pro-side just needs to decide what is the one that keeps the elements of tera in a way that is more balanced with ou (if possible)

 

[Copland]

All the talk about democracy is kind of a moot point. Sure we have community votes and community surveys, but it's ultimately up to an unelected board of internet strangers who decide what to do with our made-up video game. Even with the votes (which you have to earn via reqs), and the surveys (which take into account "qualified" responses), there's a clear separation of the in-circle and the out-circle. Not saying it shouldn't be that way, but calling the Smogon process democratic is a misrepresentation of the actual system at play.

I'm guessing Council will propose Gliscor for their next Suspect. The Champions League Gliscor stalemates are some high-profile showcases of its uncompetitiveness. But it's not like we'll see their deliberation process because they don't publicize their minutes. Blegh. Any polisci people wanna write a thesis on Pokémon government?

 

[apoteosis]

All the talk about democracy is kind of a moot point. Sure we have community votes and community surveys, but it's ultimately up to an unelected board of internet strangers who decide what to do with our made-up video game. Even with the votes (which you have to earn via reqs), and the surveys (which take into account "qualified" responses), there's a clear separation of the in-circle and the out-circle. Not saying it shouldn't be that way, but calling the Smogon process democratic is a misrepresentation of the actual system at play.

I'm guessing Council will propose Gliscor for their next Suspect. The Champions League Gliscor stalemates are some high-profile showcases of its uncompetitiveness. But it's not like we'll see their deliberation process because they don't publicize their minutes. Blegh. Any polisci people wanna write a thesis on Pokémon government?

Not to mention that current democracy worldwide is an oligarchy disguised as democracy.

I think that the current council approach, is focused more on transparency rather than democracy.

 

[TCTphantom]

Preach, Srn. I'm tired of the pro-Tera group making up fake stats, such as a CLEAR majority being in favour of no action, and the 90% tidbit about the playerbase wanting to save Tera no matter what.

I don't even like Tera, but this is a bit of a jump. They said there was a majority in salvaging Tera in some way, shape or form, not keeping Tera in its current state.

The fact is, ~80% of the players who voted on the first suspect were in favor of keeping Tera in the tier in some matter. This statistic is flawed obviously. Not everyone who voted actively posts on Smogon's forms, so its super hard to gauge whether people still have this view. The pro ban voice is loud, but I think that is just due to a selection bias. Super dedicated players are going to be willing to hop onto Smogon and talk about their feelings of Tera, painting the issue in black and white. I think that if a vote was held today, much like you say it would have a sizable majority towards restriction especially if Ranked Choice voting was implemented, which I think is not out of the question for this topic.

Personally, I want to restrict the mechanic in some way before we cut it out completely. Banning Tera Blast and/or adding Team Preview would be good picks that would help make the meta more palatable.