Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v3

[WildWave]

Survey:

: 4

: 3

: 5

: 5

: 3

: 5

Tera Blast: 1

When it comes to Quickbans, I trust The OU Counsel to make the right decisions in terms of when a Pokémon deserves to be Quickban, or when a Suspect Test is warranted. The tier is to unstable not to take immediate action. Especially; with DLC2 around the corner.

 

[Karxrida]

For one, most Baton Pass users weren’t broken either. Of course Tera Blast isn’t going to be broken on every Pokemon that learns it since practically everything learns it.
Second, your argument is a bit confusing.
You don’t want Tera Blast to be banned because of a few bad eggs, but want Tera to be banned as a whole over a few bad eggs?
I think Tera Blast ban would be a great compromise for both anti and pro tera camps. Regieleki and Volcarona definitely were banned for new coverage provided by Tera Blast. Espathra more than likely was pushed over the edge by Tera Blast, and in general would make Tera more tame. It’s kind of like if Hidden Power had effectively 120 BP and worked off your better offense just for the cost of a resource you have for rest of the match.

The thing with unrestricted Baton Pass is that you are always running multiple users of the move to abuse the hell out of it in chains. Banning the move made more sense in that instance to prevent chains from being possible, otherwise you would have had to ban most of the relevant users. Minimal collateral that way. And it's honestly pretty likely that the "not broken" Baton Pass users could have eventually found themselves banned too as long as Espeon was legal. Tera Blast has significantly higher distribution and doesn't have the complex baggage of the chain boosting since it boils down to a coverage move tied to the generational gimmick. Not comparable imo.

Also people were super tired of the multiple attempts at different (and shitty) complex bans to fix Baton Pass not working over a period of like half a year. So the community just gave up and killed the move to be done with it. I think that context is kind of important if you're gonna bring up BP.

 

[Avira]

The thing with unrestricted Baton Pass is that you are always running multiple users of the move to abuse the hell out of it in chains. Banning the move made more sense in that instance to prevent chains from being possible, otherwise you would have had to ban most of the relevant users. And it's honestly pretty likely that the "not broken" ones could have eventually found themselves banned too as long as Espeon was legal.

Also people were super tired of the multiple attempts at different (and shitty) complex bans not working. So they just gave up and killed the move to be done with it.

Well, the complex bans we tried were all really dumb. If at the start of the ban Baton Pass movement, we had tried a ban on any changes of stats in conjunction with the move Baton Pass, it would have been the simplest ban and the only way to keep Baton Pass legal. This would have prevented niche cases like Contrary Superior getting boosts from decreased stats and would have been the simplest way to handle nerfing Baton Pass, but it was never tried because of how many stupidly complex nerfs we got that didn't address the root of the issue.

 

[Karxrida]

Well, the complex bans we tried were all really dumb. If at the start of the ban Baton Pass movement, we had tried a ban on any changes of stats in conjunction with the move Baton Pass, it would have been the simplest ban and the only way to keep Baton Pass legal. This would have prevented niche cases like Contrary Superior getting boosts from decreased stats and would have been the simplest way to handle nerfing Baton Pass, but it was never tried because of how many stupidly complex nerfs we got that didn't address the root of the issue.

Banning any stat change passes period would lead to bizarre interactions like an Intimidate switch-in making the use of the move illegal. And that situation would have been very easy to trigger considering Lando-T was still lord-emperor of OU back then. The fuck do you do when you select Baton Pass on the same turn that Lando comes in? This also doesn't take into account other potentially problematic passes like Ingrain or Aqua Ring.

Your proposed solution is just as asinine as the other shit we tried tbh.

Uh anyway a Tera Blast ban shouldn't even be on the table. Like the previous Baton Pass snafu it's a half measure, so it will not solve the problem anti-Tera people have with the mech and thus won't fix anything long term so everyone will still bitch and make this forum insufferable.

 

[Wolf-X]

Banning Tera Blast is missing the forest for the trees. Tera Blast is one of many ways that Pokémon can use Tera uncompetitively. The "concept behind it [that] allows for Pokemon to handpick their own counterplay" is the entire Tera mechanic itself, not just Tera Blast.

The whole tiering philosophy we've used so far is that every user of a move needs to be uncompetitive to some degree if we want to ban that move (Shed Tail vs. Rage Fist). To claim that Tera Blast is uncompetitive, you have to prove that every single Pokémon that can learn Tera Blast--which is all of them--is some level of uncompetitive. And perhaps they are. But the very act of using Tera Blast in a game-breaking way requires that you click the Tera button. They are inseparable and should not be treated separably from a tiering perspective.

As long as we maintain Tera as a mechanic in our metagame we will be forced to play wack-a-mole with every new abuser that rises to the surface. It's insane to me that the council could look at the state of OU and think that Tera Blast is one of the most pressing issues. Get the worst Tera abusers out first, get a handle of the hazards situation, and then we can talk about what to do about Terastilization long-term.

(edit, subject-verb agreement lol)

Many banned mons would still be banned or very centralizing/conflicting in a teraless meta, so tera wouldnt really change that.

IMO the biggest issue this gen is the crazy powercreep to a level never seen before.

The council while it still has done a great job, has been a bit too democratic or slow with the banning procces, I do believe things could have happened a lot faster even some obvious bans took imo too long/suspects (ChiYu/ChienPao/Shed Tail/UsalunaBM...), which has made the tier evolution a lot slower.

Imo more bans should come, this is not councils fault, although the slow proccess in favour of democracy might be. Game Freak went crazy with the powercreep, maybe they had run out of ideas of diverse pokemon.

 

[JunkoAJ]

Meta enjoyment -1
Meta Competitiveness - 1

Worst gen so far and by far...5 was more fun.

Quickbans - 1
Ya'll need to chill on this, easy way to get more backlash. Figure out a better process.

This could be the most mutually exclusive post I've ever seen on this forum which is fucking crazy because people say incredible dumb shit.

How can you say the meta is the worst ever but not want any quickbans to resolve it? If it's that bad, it would need multiple to be resolved.

And more backlash is funny because the only backlash is really from people that just... don't understand the process? Aside from Volcarona (whose QB imo was pretty trigger-happy), every single suspect test has been communicated with surveys and backed up with figures so where is the complaints? From random people on twitter that form their own opinions without paying attention to the actual process?

Just today I've seen people say "lol the council banned Roaring Moon", well no, the community voted for it to be suspected and the community voted for it to be banned. If you complain about a wholly democratic process, you're just completely ignorant to what's going on.

 

[Kin+ak (✧∇✧)]

The council while it still has done a great job, has been a bit too democratic

Well If democratic is a bad point, I mean, the world hasnt been designer for you only. Democracy is here specially to make things more pleasant in a global way So I Don't see it as a bad point.

 

[Return to Zero]

Uh anyway a Tera Blast ban shouldn't even be on the table. Like the previous Baton Pass snafu it's a half measure, so it will not solve the problem anti-Tera people have with the mech and thus won't fix anything long term so everyone will still bitch and make this forum insufferable.

I'd argue Tera Blast used in conjunction with Tera is broken differently from just Tera by itself. Tera without Tera Blast is used almost exclusively for its defensive benefits, while Tera Blast is used to suddenly gain offensive coverage something didn't have before. Additionally, Tera Blast is cited as a major reason for several of the bans we've had so far, Volcarona, Regieleki, and Espathra in particular. Two of these, and arguably three (arguable by someone else, I don't think so), would be fine in OU if they didn't have Tera Blast. Tera Blast is one of the biggest reasons Kingambit is in contention for being banned, as it has always been. This move is demonstrably capable of breaking several different mons by itself or as a part of other issues, so if nothing else, it's at least worth having a discussion if its removal could improve things. Ideally I want Tera removed entirely, but in lieu of that, this is a fine compromise that could ease some of the strain Tera puts on the metagame and dampen its worse qualities.

 

[arnimacarni]

Well If democratic is a bad point, I mean, the world hasnt been designer for you only. Democracy is here specially to make things more pleasant in a global way So I Don't see it as a bad point.

I mean tecnocracy is a bit outdated and very neo-liberal but it's a very valid approach here. Not everything should be decided by the community, bc in something as wide as 6v6 singles everyone has their own opinion and feels (rightfully) entitled to it, but there's little compromise. I trust that Finch and the dudes are people who have played and know what theyre talking about, and although I love when a new Stored Power mon comes and I get to 1400 for once, I guess they can take decision for the good of the whole community, which is shown by their constant engagement with all of us here. If anything, this survey should be more of "yeah my guys youre doing it right you can move on yourselves and make decision for us"

edit not to make another post: also, besides the issues of tera and tera blast, i would love to see more mons like H-Zoro and Ursa-BM who can successfully and unconditionally run Tera Blast as a move regardless of whether they Tera or not

 

[Heatranator]

Well If democratic is a bad point, I mean, the world hasnt been designer for you only. Democracy is here specially to make things more pleasant in a global way So I Don't see it as a bad point.

I mean, if something is too democratic, it can be bad. I know that this is just my history brain working, but Weimar Germany didn't work because it was too democratic and thus decisions couldn't be made as nobody agreed on anything.
Going back to Smogon, it took a long while for Gen 6 Aegislash and Gen 5 Genesect to be banned despite the fact they were very obviously broken, but people just didn't vote for their ban. So yeah, some autocratic measures are needed.

 

[Schpoonman]

I'd argue Tera Blast used in conjunction with Tera is broken differently from just Tera by itself. Tera without Tera Blast is used almost exclusively for its defensive benefits, while Tera Blast is used to suddenly gain offensive coverage something didn't have before. Additionally, Tera Blast is cited as a major reason for several of the bans we've had so far, Volcarona, Regieleki, and Espathra in particular. Two of these, and arguably three (arguable by someone else, I don't think so), would be fine in OU if they didn't have Tera Blast. Tera Blast is one of the biggest reasons Kingambit is in contention for being banned, as it has always been. This move is demonstrably capable of breaking several different mons by itself or as a part of other issues, so if nothing else, it's at least worth having a discussion if its removal could improve things. Ideally I want Tera removed entirely, but in lieu of that, this is a fine compromise that could ease some of the strain Tera puts on the metagame and dampen its worse qualities.

Gonna disagree a little bit, STAB Tera was historically used on Kingambit for gamma ray burst Sucker Punches and Baxcalibur used it before getting smoked for Glaive Rushes doing the same. The reason I want Kingambit gone isn't because Tera Blast suddenly makes its coverage untenable (it can run Dark/Fighting coverage naturally, and it has Steel STAB for any Fairies that switch in on the former), but because flipping its defensive profile with no warning wins games that should have been lost. Dark/Fairy coverage is excellent and Kingambit puts it to great use, but I'd wager that a return of Hidden Power with a fat buff wouldn't nearly be as much of an issue without the defensive profile-flipping that Tera enables. Bax also used Tera Ground to improve its coverage without Tera Blast since it naturally learned Earthquake.

 

[tommytt22]

any predictions on usage stats this month? dont care about drops i mean whos in the top 10. even though everyone here hates gliscor i dont see it much on ladder. rillaboom and cinderace are everywhere, i expect to see them both in top 12

 

[BolTingBlazie]

any predictions on usage stats this month? dont care about drops i mean whos in the top 10. even though everyone here hates gliscor i dont see it much on ladder. rillaboom and cinderace are everywhere, i expect to see them both in top 12

Predicting that Tornadus-T and Alomomola finally become OU proper pokemon, as both have been getting a good amount of usage, moreso than last month where both were 0.3% away from rising prior and both have had resurgences as of late.

Also predicting that Toxapex and Landorus-T finally become UU pokemon for the first time, along with enamorus-I who I think might drop too as there really is no reason other than healing wish to run it over other fairies at the moment besides a ground immunity

The opportunity cost for Tera Blast is a moveslot, as others have said TBlast is basically a dead move 99% of the time if you don't actually Tera the mon, and the opportunity for Tera itself is that you can only pick one type and can only Tera one mon in any given game. If your gameplan revolves around a specific mon's defensive tera, for example, you give up a chance for stronger offense/sweeper. Of course, well-made teams don't always need both the extra offense or extra defense from tera to win, but in general I think Tera choices (both type and when to use Tera) are valid forms of skill expression that aren't particularly problematic on the whole.

I bring up having open Tera types as a solution to create a scenario similar to knowing which Pokemon can mega-evolve without having fully open team sheets. Knowing what tera types your opponent is running cuts down on frustration from mons that 50-50 offensive and defensive tera types like Kingambit and allows players to better play around any defensive Tera options presented.

Here is my problem with open tera though, it ruins the fun skillful aspect about the mechanic and is only a bandaid fix on the variance issue, as even if you know the teratype, you still do not know when or if someone could click the button and does not help as much as it does in doubles metagames in practice. I'd rather tera would go from OU honestly, but I think every tier should suspect it at once so it can stay in tiers where its fine and go from ones where it is difficult to handle

 

[1LDK]

along with enamorus-I who I think might drop too as there really is no reason other than healing wish to run it over other fairies at the moment besides a ground immunity

Slander :gun:

Enamorus @ Leftovers / Life Orb
Ability: Cute Charm
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Moonblast
- Earth Power
- Substitute

I have seen and been using this, while not the safest sweeper and hard to set up, it just so happens to use gliscor as fodder, and then he either has to set up and ice fang or switch out, which means he is either getting his ass blasted or another teammate is taking the L (air ballon dengo, milotic, zama, clef, they all fear spd drops or spa drops), gliscor balance is super common and this set feasts on it, and even has some utility for offense thanks to sub

 

[Carolusim]

Here is my problem with open tera though, it ruins the fun skillful aspect about the mechanic and is only a bandaid fix on the variance issue, as even if you know the teratype, you still do not know when or if someone could click the button and does not help as much as it does in doubles metagames in practice. I'd rather tera would go from OU honestly, but I think every tier should suspect it at once so it can stay in tiers where its fine and go from ones where it is difficult to handle
[/QUOTE]
I agree with the fact that tera is probably the vital issue with all these bans but OU would be so boring without it tbh
probably better to get it banned for balance reasons though

 

[Finchinator]

The SV OU tiering council is going to have a multifaceted vote to determine the best path to proceed on a particular Pokemon that received high survey scores. We will know more later today or tomorrow.

 

[Srn]

Gotta say this is one of the posts thats pissed me off the most in a long while. My dude is literally calling for Tera Blast ban as a way to get Terastallization in its entirety banned? If we DID do a restriction, shouldn't we be focused on finding a restriction that makes Terastallization balanced? It seems like the whole reason half of you want a tera blast ban is because you see it as the easiest way to a full tera ban. This is not the attitude we should go with when discussing this mechanic. How does anyone else let this type of scheming slide when theyre blatantly saying this publically??? If I were on council I would immediately disregard this opinion because theyre not actually focused on trying to find a solution to Tera. They just want it banned and will do whatever it takes to get it. We're no longer even discussing how to properly make tera fair.

(trimmed)

TLDR: Tera Blast Ban is not the way to fix tera. Its getting a lot of support from people like the one above that are just hellbent on banning tera. We should be looking at a restriction that allows us to keep tera, not one that would force us to ban it. Ironically I did consider myself more of a fencesitter on the topic recently but this post just pushed me back to Pro-Tera

This post is so confusing to me. If I want tera banned, as I do, when what other course of action would you expect me to take? Banning Tera Blast is better than nothing, and banning Tera fully is better than banning Tera Blast. If a full ban on tera isn't up for a vote, then why are you mad that I would vote to ban Tera Blast??? Why is it "scheming" that is being allowed to publicly slide, you're acting like I'm running thru the self-checkout with some red wine I shoplifted LOL.

Who are you to decide what "attitude we should go with" when discussing Tera? Why are you assuming that I want to "properly make tera fair"??? I don't believe a fair, balanced, and healthy metagame is possible as long as Tera is present in any form, so why am I being expected to "find a solution to Tera?"

We should be looking at a restriction that allows us to keep tera, not one that would force us to ban it.

BRO WHO IS "WE"?? Please stop assuming that everybody is on board to help you salvage this broken mechanic.
You don't have to agree, but I find this framing inherently invalidates the opinions of a large portion of this community.

 

[redninjapuffle]

The SV OU tiering council is going to have a multifaceted vote to determine the best path to proceed on a particular Pokemon that received high survey scores. We will know more later today or tomorrow.

Now the question is gliscor or gholdengo?

 

[arnimacarni]

The SV OU tiering council is going to have a multifaceted vote to determine the best path to proceed on a particular Pokemon that received high survey scores. We will know more later today or tomorrow.

Finally, a decision on Victreebel. Can't let it warp the tier in this way...

 

[sims796]

If Gliscor goes before Ghold, then that's it. I curse you. I curse you all to an OU where everyone has decided to truly explore hazards. May your every game be filled with Spikes. May Corviknight never be enough.

Damn it I'm pissed. We finally get a fun, foul defensive mon that's the second coming of Garganacl. If anything its better at gathering tears than a pile of salt! I understand. Its unhealthy. It has to go. But damnit, it's so fun! Why can't we have balanced mons? Everything is OP no matter what role they play.

 

[Avira]

Predicting that Tornadus-T and Alomomola finally become OU proper pokemon, as both have been getting a good amount of usage, moreso than last month where both were 0.3% away from rising prior and both have had resurgences as of late.

Also predicting that Toxapex and Landorus-T finally become UU pokemon for the first time, along with enamorus-I who I think might drop too as there really is no reason other than healing wish to run it over other fairies at the moment besides a ground immunity

I believe Garganacl and Heatran will rejoin OU. Both were suppressed by Ursaluna-Bloodmoon's presence, and their usage picked up after its ban.

 

[BolTingBlazie]

The opportunity cost for Tera Blast is a moveslot, as others have said TBlast is basically a dead move 99% of the time if you don't actually Tera the mon, and the opportunity for Tera itself is that you can only pick one type and can only Tera one mon in any given game. If your gameplan revolves around a specific mon's defensive tera, for example, you give up a chance for stronger offense/sweeper. Of course, well-made teams don't always need both the extra offense or extra defense from tera to win, but in general I think Tera choices (both type and when to use Tera) are valid forms of skill expression that aren't particularly problematic on the whole.

I bring up having open Tera types as a solution to create a scenario similar to knowing which Pokemon can mega-evolve without having fully open team sheets. Knowing what tera types your opponent is running cuts down on frustration from mons that 50-50 offensive and defensive tera types like Kingambit and allows players to better play around any defensive Tera options presented.

Here is my problem with open tera though, it ruins the fun aspect about the mechanic and is only a bandaid fix on the variance issue, as even if you know the teratype, you still do not know when or if someone could click the button. I'd

The SV OU tiering council is going to have a multifaceted vote to determine the best path to proceed on a particular Pokemon that received high survey scores. We will know more later today or tomorrow.

Is it ghold or gliscor?

 

[Finchinator]

Damn it I'm pissed. We finally get a fun, foul defensive mon that's the second coming of Garganacl. If anything its better at gathering tears than a pile of salt!

 

[pika pal]

My ideal scenario at this point is a Gliscor Ban and a Gholdengo suspect subsequently. While I do think Gholdengo has a wider reach that needs to be addressed, in the Meta we have right now, Gliscor is the Spiker who will be affected the least by Gholdengo's absence since it refuses to die and can thus most easily retain Spike pressure by putting new Spikes down, vs Ting-Lu and Hamurott who are defined by being a bulky blanket check using extra turns (and thus having limited longevity in one role because of the other) or an offensive "these spikes will go up if it kills me!" pivot attacker.

On the matter of Tera Blast, I'd be curious how many of its most prominent users still in OU rely on it, since there's a general consensus on the 3 bans that would be worth retrying without it. Kingambit is cited for example, but is Tera Blast so significant that we really think it'll stop doing Gambit things with the variants that lose it? I don't get the sense that enough of the remaining Broken users of Tera Blast are Broken in significant part BY Tera Blast.

 

[awyp]

The SV OU tiering council is going to have a multifaceted vote to determine the best path to proceed on a particular Pokemon that received high survey scores. We will know more later today or tomorrow.

bye-bye bud, we'll miss you