Sure it's fine, but corv isn't a viable defogger, it's a viable wall. At this point defog is a filler move and IMO it is kinda noob bait...
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v3
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i actually think corv is perfectly viable and fine as a defogger even in the current climate, but
is the funniest string of words i've read in weeks and i want to turn it into a copypasta
Fantastic work as always, Cornerbane got me.
I disagree. Corv has always put in work for me as a defogger. The Ghold matchup is definitely not pretty but I think its very playable if you use it alongside a few boots users (you should use teammates with boots even if Ghold didn't exist)
2 mistakes are commonly commited with Corviknight that make people think he is bad:
1. Using it Pdef instead of Sdef. Pdef doesn,t check anything reliably in long term. Sdef switches fine into Valiant, Enamorus and sometimes even Pult among others.
2. Using it as ONLY hazard remover. He is not getting past Gholdengo. Thats a fact. He might U-Turn out, but he won,t Defog. You need Cinderace, Tusk or even something as Maushold/Furret. Corviknight will work really well vs non Gholdengo teams (or when Gholdengo is down). Use the other remover vs Gholdengo.
1. Using it Pdef instead of Sdef. Pdef doesn,t check anything reliably in long term. Sdef switches fine into Valiant, Enamorus and sometimes even Pult among others.
2. Using it as ONLY hazard remover. He is not getting past Gholdengo. Thats a fact. He might U-Turn out, but he won,t Defog. You need Cinderace, Tusk or even something as Maushold/Furret. Corviknight will work really well vs non Gholdengo teams (or when Gholdengo is down). Use the other remover vs Gholdengo.
I used to run it EXCLUSIVELY Phisically Defensive back when that cheap broken ass noob-spam uncompetitive garbage of a Mega-Weavile used to be everywhere at the start of this gen, cause it was one of the few things that could (maybe) check it with the ID+Body Press set. Nowadays it is true that you're better off running the SpDef set considering that it checks the most common physical threats that do not hit it supereffectively anyways (Tusk, Rillaboom, Valiant, Gliscor, Dnite and Chomp), the only exception being probably Zamazenta which destroys it with Body Press (unless you Tera Ghost). Still, I think all Corvs require either the ID+Body Press set or the Bulk Up+Brave Bird one, with the last two slots saved for Roost and either Defog or U-turn.
only set that makes ghold not wanna switch in is the nonexistent bulk up power trip corv...
you say "nonexistent", i say "lure"
A big reason people complain about Hazard Removal is the lack of Defog/Rapid Spin users in the tier. This coupled with the fact that Gholdengo is really common and blocks both Defog and Rapid Spin.
I feel like Gholdengo should have been suspected first since it is at forefront of the hazard control problem. Gliscor just makes the problem bigger.
While I personally dont have trouble with Gliscor or Gholdengo, I could see why others would want them out the tier.
I feel like Gholdengo should have been suspected first since it is at forefront of the hazard control problem. Gliscor just makes the problem bigger.
While I personally dont have trouble with Gliscor or Gholdengo, I could see why others would want them out the tier.
It's not just about hazards. Gliscor's also extremely difficult to punish, doesn't particularly care if its hazards are removed since it can get them back up so easily, has a super wide movepool with a relatively minor case of 4MSS, and the things that counter it are difficult to bring out against it or lack presence otherwise in the meta. Gliscor's just a frustrating brain-off mon that has a disproportionate reward for using it and requires over-preparation to deal with.
I dont use gliscor but you can say I over-prepare for it since all mons on my teams can hit it for super-effective damage also accounting for Tera Water. I understand how other have problems with it tho
Im saying in the sense thats its oppressive, it is good ofc but not oppressive if gliscor didnt exist, even w/ other hazard setters
As a Gliscor user, best way to handle it is either specs Dragapult or trapping w/ air ballon Heatran magma storm. Also prankster para it first w/ something or rimbombe, or just use the threat of para to set up sticky web or your own hazards
What Prankster mons are threatening it with Paralysis? It's immune to Thunder Wave. Rimbombee's also not super reliable since Stun Spore only has 3/4 odds of hitting.
Not to mention how common protect is to hedge against fast knock off users, so you're just hoping to hit gli on the switch in.
And yeah, there are no prankster mons that learn stun spore or glare.
Some thoughts on how the Gliscor/gholdengo/tiering dilemma:
Preface: I do not think that we should be banning Pokémon like Gliscor under skewed conditions until we prioritize what enables these conditions first. The conditions I'm referring to are our lack of consistent and reliable hazard control, and Terastallization negatively warping and destabilizing the tier for months.
I believe that Gliscor is a much more problematic and urgent symptom of the inherent issues that we're facing, which is why I can understand ban arguments under the current conditions of the game. However, until we address what's inherently destabilizing gen 9, I think that a Pokémon as traditionally stabilizing as Gliscor deserves to have its performance tested under more stable conditions. I believe that Gliscor can still perform numerous amounts of role compression that could positively affect the tier, as it has in many gens, with more stable hazard control. Checking Heatran, blocking volt switch, absorbing knock off, enabling multiple playstyles at once due to its versatility, etc. However, these cancerous conditions have slowly caught up to a long time staple, and with these conditions I wholeheartedly understand our concern. What I really want to highlight is that I fear in our eagerness to settle the metagame down and appease the player base we are scapegoating a big symptom rather than the disease itself (Tldr testing gholdengo first who largely enables the lack of hazard control and the rigidity of tera.).
To reiterate, Gliscor deserves to be banned under the current conditions of the metagame. However, I really want to challenge the player base to start questioning what these conditions are and why they exist. Gholdengo, a major part of the disease, being dealt with after its symptoms is not the way to go for me. We're essentially saying that we think this Pokémon's presence is healthier than the presence of corviknight. A mon that would bring much needed stability to the mess that's going on with hazard control and Gliscor utilization. I believe that Gliscor is a symptom of this tiers fragility and that tera and gholdengo are far more problematic and inherent problems. I'm glad that council has highlighted their disdain for this as well and I urge the player base to carefully consider looking at our inherent problems first and why they exist before trying to rehabilitate based off of symptoms in the future.
I believe that gholdengo promotes an unhealthy state of competitive singles. Its warping abilities rivaling Dracovish, Spectrier, and Zamazenta-C last gen are incredibly alarming. I made some allusions in the hyperlink above to what unhealthy pokemon like these can do to a tier, specifically highlighting how these pokemon destabilize metagames; rather than their strengths and weaknesses in a vacuum. I would encourage that the post is read whether you agree or not because I believe there are some valuable takeaways and historical connections that can help influence our decisions moving forward.
Disclaimer: Bc it can knock off corv and wear it down overtime I still think that Gliscor would be problematic, just not to the extent that it is currently. I'm also aware that in past gens we had many more tools to combat gliscor which helped to balance it further. I just think that it deserves to see what could be much more stability given its track record over a Pokémon like gholdengo doing things that inherently lean deep into uncompetitive territory in theory and in practice. If you agree/disagree or have anything you'd like to add I'd welcome any discussion in the OU room as I don't use smogon very much. -mcp3
Preface: I do not think that we should be banning Pokémon like Gliscor under skewed conditions until we prioritize what enables these conditions first. The conditions I'm referring to are our lack of consistent and reliable hazard control, and Terastallization negatively warping and destabilizing the tier for months.
I believe that Gliscor is a much more problematic and urgent symptom of the inherent issues that we're facing, which is why I can understand ban arguments under the current conditions of the game. However, until we address what's inherently destabilizing gen 9, I think that a Pokémon as traditionally stabilizing as Gliscor deserves to have its performance tested under more stable conditions. I believe that Gliscor can still perform numerous amounts of role compression that could positively affect the tier, as it has in many gens, with more stable hazard control. Checking Heatran, blocking volt switch, absorbing knock off, enabling multiple playstyles at once due to its versatility, etc. However, these cancerous conditions have slowly caught up to a long time staple, and with these conditions I wholeheartedly understand our concern. What I really want to highlight is that I fear in our eagerness to settle the metagame down and appease the player base we are scapegoating a big symptom rather than the disease itself (Tldr testing gholdengo first who largely enables the lack of hazard control and the rigidity of tera.).
To reiterate, Gliscor deserves to be banned under the current conditions of the metagame. However, I really want to challenge the player base to start questioning what these conditions are and why they exist. Gholdengo, a major part of the disease, being dealt with after its symptoms is not the way to go for me. We're essentially saying that we think this Pokémon's presence is healthier than the presence of corviknight. A mon that would bring much needed stability to the mess that's going on with hazard control and Gliscor utilization. I believe that Gliscor is a symptom of this tiers fragility and that tera and gholdengo are far more problematic and inherent problems. I'm glad that council has highlighted their disdain for this as well and I urge the player base to carefully consider looking at our inherent problems first and why they exist before trying to rehabilitate based off of symptoms in the future.
I believe that gholdengo promotes an unhealthy state of competitive singles. Its warping abilities rivaling Dracovish, Spectrier, and Zamazenta-C last gen are incredibly alarming. I made some allusions in the hyperlink above to what unhealthy pokemon like these can do to a tier, specifically highlighting how these pokemon destabilize metagames; rather than their strengths and weaknesses in a vacuum. I would encourage that the post is read whether you agree or not because I believe there are some valuable takeaways and historical connections that can help influence our decisions moving forward.
Disclaimer: Bc it can knock off corv and wear it down overtime I still think that Gliscor would be problematic, just not to the extent that it is currently. I'm also aware that in past gens we had many more tools to combat gliscor which helped to balance it further. I just think that it deserves to see what could be much more stability given its track record over a Pokémon like gholdengo doing things that inherently lean deep into uncompetitive territory in theory and in practice. If you agree/disagree or have anything you'd like to add I'd welcome any discussion in the OU room as I don't use smogon very much. -mcp3
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I'm gonna miss my Stallkiller if it gets banned. Then we're back to Hisuian Samurott spikes spam
Wheeeee...
While I do agree with most of this, I suggest a truckload of care when overthinking about future implications when voting on a suspect or similar. There was the Kingambit suspect and whilst most people agree that Tera is a big part of the reason why it is busted (I'm using word of mouth here, but I believe someone mentioned it has over 40% usage in high elo?), the suspect itself was a close vote, in which a non-negligible amount of voters attempted to exercise restraint in hopes that Tera would be banned. Now we are likely stuck with it until DLC2 at least, perhaps more.
My main worry is we do something similar this time - letting Gliscor go expecting a Gholdengo suspect and ban, which may not happen.
that 3.93 and previously 4 on Kingambit is pretty brutal.
Ogerpon-Hearthflame for similar results got quickbanned
I think Gliscor & Kingambit deserves a ban, and Gholdengo in a meta without one of their best offensive checks which is easy to fit on half of teams will be probably broken too and will get banned eventually.
Ogerpon-Hearthflame for similar results got quickbanned
I think Gliscor & Kingambit deserves a ban, and Gholdengo in a meta without one of their best offensive checks which is easy to fit on half of teams will be probably broken too and will get banned eventually.
according to finch, the 3.93 and 4 on gambit are the result of survey manipulation. one or more people are using either bots or dummy accounts, possibly both, to flood the survey with submissions that vote 5 on gambit, which artificially inflated gambit's non-qualified survey score. the qualified score was unaffected because all of those responses are checked to make sure they're actually qualified. it's an unfortunate fact that our google surveys are easy to manipulate on the non-qualified side, which is why i always tend to only take the qualified scores into account when i make observations about them
that said, gambit did have a 0.34 point jump in qualified responses between the first and second surveys, which is pretty significant and shows that a lot more people are considering it a serious problem (as they should)
I mean both of these are general, not qualified. Kingambit is well below the quickban line from the qualified responses.
Erm.... based?
no. super cringe, actually. if you wanna influence the vote, you do it by convincing people to vote a certain way, not by making up fake votes
… Wait, are there really people out there trying to claim that an increased amount of votes on Kingambit is due to “bots/trolls” and not because Kingambit is the same broken bullshit it has been since Chien-Pao went away? Lmfao come on, is there any explanation that makes that reason any less laughable?
Somewhat related, if both 
and 
are banned, how the hell are you supposed to deal with 
reliably?
The sole Pokemon can outspeed it immediately is Barraskewda under Rain and Choice Scarf Regieleki. Sneasler can tank priority well considering it usually gets a +1 Def boost from Grassy Seed. Ditto doesn’t copy Unburden boosts. Everything else has to tank Close Combat (130 Atk usually at +2 and Adamant) or gamble against Dire Claw.
Only thing that act as switchins were Gliscor and Gholdengo. Any other resists always risked being put to sleep with 1/6th chance (if they switched in on it, would be about 30% chance due to hitting twice) of being put to sleep. Or paralyzed, or poisoned. If it wasn’t for the mechanic altering Sleep Clause on Showdown, it’d be more nightmarish to fight.
Without Gliscor and Gholdengo, there isn’t a way to avoid such a gamble heavily in favor Sneasler.
And to be honest, I genuinely would rather OHKO clause to not exist than Sneasler. At least the gamble there is at most likely losing 2 Pokemon (assuming OHKO moves are in a vacuum and you like spam them against 6 Blisseys), meanwhile you can lose the game with less better odds from Dire Claw Sneasler.
and are banned, how the hell are you supposed to deal with reliably?The sole Pokemon can outspeed it immediately is Barraskewda under Rain and Choice Scarf Regieleki. Sneasler can tank priority well considering it usually gets a +1 Def boost from Grassy Seed. Ditto doesn’t copy Unburden boosts. Everything else has to tank Close Combat (130 Atk usually at +2 and Adamant) or gamble against Dire Claw.
Only thing that act as switchins were Gliscor and Gholdengo. Any other resists always risked being put to sleep with 1/6th chance (if they switched in on it, would be about 30% chance due to hitting twice) of being put to sleep. Or paralyzed, or poisoned. If it wasn’t for the mechanic altering Sleep Clause on Showdown, it’d be more nightmarish to fight.
Without Gliscor and Gholdengo, there isn’t a way to avoid such a gamble heavily in favor Sneasler.
And to be honest, I genuinely would rather OHKO clause to not exist than Sneasler. At least the gamble there is at most likely losing 2 Pokemon (assuming OHKO moves are in a vacuum and you like spam them against 6 Blisseys), meanwhile you can lose the game with less better odds from Dire Claw Sneasler.
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